Trench's Questions and Philosophies

[DaveNY]

You don't get it do you. If a western women's gift/worth is pregnancy to a man then what is a man's worth to a woman? He can't get pregnant. That's right he's worth is in being a provider otherwise he has no worth to her.

The more equal a western society gets the less worth a man has as a provider. The woman is both becoming a provider and so making the man redundant and can get pregnant.

When my sister got divorced from her first husband she said to me 'there are no decent me around' - she was in her early to mid thirties. I soon learnt that 'decent' did not me a nice guy with pleasant manners and the right morals but a guy who had a good job and her own house like she did. Any guy with much less than this wasn't really suitable so not a consideration or apparently seen as a decent man, lol.

That's why men need to earn more than women, that's why the need to be dominant in the fortune 500 companies - they are supposed to be the providers it's their thing. It isn't supposed to be a put down of women it's just what men are built to do, provide sk the woman doesn't have to. I tell you now I would rather be a western woman any day my than a western man.

Trench what you say has some truth to it though it's becoming less relevant. 50 years ago it could be said that women married up. Women married men who were taller than them. Older than them and financially better off. This was because many women used to work little after having children so they needed to make sure their family would still be housed and fed.

Even today some of this is still true for some women. My wife is 6'2" she said it was difficult for her to date a man who was 5'10" because after putting on heels she was 6"-7" taller than him. She said she felt like his mother. Other women wouldn't think of marrying a man who made substantially less than her. Most women today still marry men who are older than themselves.

Of course this has changed greatly in the last 50 years. More women than men go to college and graduate and the gulf is widening. This means over time women's wages will close the gap with men's wages. Most/many women return to work after having children. This means her children and herself will be housed and fed. Perhaps a reason for the increased divorce rate?

[Steamer]

It isn't that women in the West have it better, it is that because they are equal and don't have to rely on men, they have more choices.

With international dating WM now have more choices also.

[Boethius]

Perhaps a reason for the increased divorce rate?

I believe it increased when no fault divorce was introduced.

With international dating WM now have more choices also.

Sure, but realistically, the vast majority of WM date, and marry, women from their own countries.

Incidentally, international dating means WW have more choices also.

[Bee Farmer]

I find hobbies/interests are probably the most telling thing. If she is an Opera or Orchestra fanatic as I have found out in the past it usually isn't a girl that is going to work with me.

Fanatics about anything can be difficult.  But someone who simply enjoys opera or orchestra does not mean you are not compatible.  It's simply a sign they are a Feeling type personality.  If you are a Thinking type personality who doesn't get into orchestra or opera, you actually may be quite compatible because you will complement each other.

I think aside from that though a lot of FSW are probably a hell of a lot closer to me on the Myers Brigg personality type than UK women.

 

That's very unlikely.  In both cultures you will find a range of personality types.  Some will complement yours, and some will clash.

Their culture and the sort if personalities inherent in it suit me better as a whole.

Do not confuse personality type with culture.  My cousin's wife is an ISFJ.  She is college educated and a nurse.  She has a very dominant personality.  She "wears the pants" of the family.  She also has a higher IQ than my cousin.  (She's also excessively obese and had limited prospects for marriage.  My cousin was a stable guy who treats her well, and they have common values regarding family, etc.)
I am also friends with a Mennonite family.  The mother is also an ISFJ.  The Mennonite culture is very patriarchal.  The lady is very meek and demure.  She is a doormat type personality.  her husband doesn't take advantage of it badly, but she would let him roll over her if he wished.

The difference is the culture, and not the personality type of how they process information from the world.

Bee Farmer and Trenchcoat.  Wow.  That is a duo I'd like to see in action on the hunt in Ukraine!

Why?  At least for me, you wouldn't understand it even if I explained what I was doing to you.  Your problem is that you are blinded by your own paradigm, and unable to see that what works for you is not what will work for others.  It would confuse you just as much as I shake my head at your antics, and wonder why on earth you would go for girls who respond to someone who acts like you, and I shake my head in amazement as to why you would act like you do. 

I'll give you an illustration...

One thing I learned while interviewing FSU Women is never to reveal too much about one's self.  There is a direct correlation between a woman asking a bunch of questions and a woman with an attitude. 
I need a woman who can express herself without demanding information.

Being curious about you has nothing to do with a woman being low in trait Agreeableness.
What you really want is a woman with no personality.  Maybe you should buy a lifelike sex doll.
Do not confuse being low in Agreeableness (having an attitude) with being high in Neuroticism.  Neuroticism is higher in people who are lower in socio-economic status, and is to be expected in FSU women.  (Once they acclimate to a less stressful and comfortable lifestyle, their Neuroticism should be expected to lessen.

Very simply put, if a woman cannot be kind when she is interviewing a prospective mate, how do you think it will be living with her?

Since when is asking you questions about yourself being "not kind?"

Perhaps the bigger problem is that you have character defects that you don't want the lady to discover.  It's easier for you to cut and run, than it is for you to admit that you are wrong and have unaddressed problems.

You should actually want some degree of conflict.  What's the magic amount?  If you have less than 5 positive interactions to one negative, the relationship fails.  But if everything is perfect and you never have any disagreements or conflict, and you have more than 11 positive interactions to one negative, the relationship also fails.  There is no depth to the relationship, and no room for personal growth or improvement.

It is fun to ask general questions of a woman that allow her to engage you without thinking she is getting the third degree.  For instance, a woman from Dnepropetrovsk might get a question like:  You aren't a rocket scientist are you?   I remember asking a woman from Chelyabinsk where she was when the meteor hit close to her city. 

That's engaging in meaningless, shallow conversation which does nothing to getting to know each other.  Yes, they may engage you by responding, but it does nothing for getting to know someone beyond the most superficial degree. 
And you may be happy with that.  That may work for you.  The ideal marriage for many men has the emotional depth and equivalence to a one night stand that occurs with the same woman every night.  And if that's what you want, that's fine.  You're the one who has to live with that. (and ends up with a string of shallow, meaningless relationships, with no continuity of narrative in your life, divorce, and children being raised in broken homes.  And it never ceases to amaze me when guys search for a girl whose parents are not divorced and was raised in a good home, yet they are divorced and raising kids in a broken home.)
But some people want a relationship with more depth and meaning, which will last a lifetime.  It would be pointless for you to watch me courting a lady, as my goals are completely different from yours.

Point is I have met few FSW that aren't that Arbitary. Some are less so than others but most seem to have a strong streak of it in them, perhaps it's due to Soviet Union experience or from living in harsh conditions who knows.

Trench, have you considered the possibility that you come across to women as being helpless, and that you need a babysitter or a strong woman to take you by the hand?

I suspect that part of your problem is that you are too high in trait Agreeableness.  The problem with very agreeable people is that they never know what they want for themselves.  They often need psychological counseling because they need assertiveness training so they can stand up for themselves.

Something like Beevis and Butthead tried to get laid in Ukraine. Our two heroes could not even figure it out if they were in the RiverBoat on the Dnieper.

I'm not a sex tourist.  It speaks volumes that you would consider guys in Ukraine searching for a relationship to be sex tourists.  Are you simply revealing your own motivations, and projecting them onto others?

In the UK there is normally big reasons why women are still single and on dating sites - mental health problems, problems with relationships, etc.

You could say the same thing about 40 year old men with no relationship history.

I read something once which said an estimated 70% of men seeking wives in the FSU suffer from a mental illness, and about 40% of the FSU women seeking western men.

If you have a bad dating history, you should look at the reasons why.  They are about you, not the women you dated.

You may be jumping to conclusions that someone having a limited dating history is a bad dating history.  Some people have minimal dating history because they hold themselves to higher standards, and refuse to lower their standards.

For example, if a 40 year old guy is physically fit, never married, no kids, no tattoos, doesn't drink alcohol or smoke or use drugs, has a stable $50K income, and Christian values, how many women of similar age is he going to find who have never been married, have no kids, physically fit, no tattoos, doesn't abuse alcohol or drugs or tobacco, has Christian values, etc.?
I can tell you that even by the age of 30, it's very difficult to find single women a guy like that would want to date.  Is the guy the problem for having a limited relationship history?

That must be why they are so underrepresented in Fortune 500 companies, on lists of the world's wealthiest individuals, in boardrooms, and in politics.  Those, poor, poor oppressed WM.

That's simply a function of high conscientiousness in men, and a desire to outcompete the men around him.
It's also a function that western women are not willing to work 80 hour weeks for decades on end.  By the time they hit 30, they may be at the top of the world in their career, and they walk away from it because they want to have a kid.  The men keep plugging along.
Not only that, men will work longer hours than women.  Hospitals know this.  They have to hire more women doctors than male doctors because the women won't put in the hours the males will.  They value things outside of work.  Men are able to fixate and consume themselves with pursuing one thing, and ignoring the rest of life.

Women are underrepresented in big companies and positions of a lot of power and authority because they are smart enough not to immerse themselves in their work that much for so many years in order to get there.

A woman doesn't choose a man solely because he is a breadwinner, or because he is a sperm donor.  She does so because she wants to build a life with him.

No, WW usually don't choose the best provider.  A woman usually chooses the man who she loves (at the time).

A woman simply won't love a guy who isn't a good provider, or who can provide less than she can.

But women typically don't have relationships with men who are below them in socio-economic status.  They go for men who are equal or higher.  Yes, they want a guy who will love them and treat them right and care for them and be a good father, etc, but most women aren't going to give a chance to the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's unless she is also working at McDonald's or lower in social status.

For most individuals (male and female), the heart is open to love and family. 

Typically, women won't open their heart to love and family unless the guy is equal or higher socio-economic status.

However, I don't think, even if you manage to find an FSUW to marry, that the relationship will last, because what you seek is not built from a place of love and normality.  It's broken. 

Most men pursuing FSU women are not seeking a relationship built from a place of love and normality.  They are broken.
Look how many men are divorced.  Those men are broken.  Studies show that men do not recover from a broken heart.  They are injured for life.  The men simply move on.  They are searching for a substitute or approximation of a real loving relationship.

More women than men go to college and graduate and the gulf is widening. This means over time women's wages will close the gap with men's wages.

Until women are willing to work 80 hours a week for 50 years, and are willing to not have kids to focus on their careers, it won't happen.
As long as women work less hours per week as men, and as long as women put their careers on hold to have kids, there will continue to be wage disparity.

This means her children and herself will be housed and fed. Perhaps a reason for the increased divorce rate?

The divorce rate for wealthy people is low.  It is the lower classes where divorce is rampant, especially where people are living paycheck to paycheck.  Welfare benefits have been a big factor in the divorce rate, as the state now becomes a "father" figure.

I believe it increased when no fault divorce was introduced.

That hasn't helped anything.  Social acceptance of divorce hasn't helped anything either.

Used to, marriage was a sacred act, that meant something.  Perhaps it is just a decline in the moral fabric of society, but people seem to be able to break their word without having much of a guilty conscience.  You're supposed to work on problems, rather than running away from them.

Incidentally, international dating means WW have more choices also.

I know a western woman who got herself a mail order groom from China.  She wore the pants in the family, very domineering and abusive, and lorded her economic clout over the guy.  It was not a pretty picture.  The woman died of cancer a couple years ago.  She was my Aunt's boss.

[Boethius]

You may be jumping to conclusions that someone having a limited dating history is a bad dating history.  Some people have minimal dating history because they hold themselves to higher standards, and refuse to lower their standards.[/font]For example, if a 40 year old guy is physically fit, never married, no kids, no tattoos, doesn't drink alcohol or smoke or use drugs, has a stable $50K income, and Christian values, how many women of similar age is he going to find who have never been married, have no kids, physically fit, no tattoos, doesn't abuse alcohol or drugs or tobacco, has Christian values, etc.?I can tell you that even by the age of 30, it's very difficult to find single women a guy like that would want to date.  Is the guy the problem for having a limited relationship history?

No, I'm not jumping to conclusions.  Yes, the guy is at fault for having a limited relationship history. 
Incidentally, Trench had zero issues with setting up "housekeeping" in Kyiv for a week with a Ukrainian tart.  He even took her on vacation later.  So, I don't believe this excuse about his high moral standards.

[Boethius]

A woman simply won't love a guy who isn't a good provider, or who can provide less than she can.

I again disagree.  I earn far more than does my husband.  Both my sisters make double what their husbands do.  I knew I would out earn my husband my entire career when I married him.  My sisters did not.  One just works in a very high demand field.  Her husband works in the same field, but is compensated less.   I know many women who earn far more than their husbands.  It isn't necessarily a consideration in choosing a mate if a woman knows she will be able to support herself.

[Bee Farmer]

No, I'm not jumping to conclusions.  Yes, the guy is at fault for having a limited relationship history. 

What is the guy's fault?  Does a guy have an obligation to pursue as many relationships as he can, regardless if they are with people he would ever consider marrying?

I was always taught that I should never date someone that I knew I would have no intentions of marrying.  If a guy lives by that code and has high standards, that greatly reduces the pool of potential dates.

It might also be worthwhile to define what is meant by "limited relationship history."  If a guy has a limited number of long-term relationships, versus a guy having many dates with many girls but never having serious long-tern relationships with them, which guy has the limited relationship history?

Incidentally, Trench had zero issues with setting up "housekeeping" in Kyiv for a week with a Ukrainian tart.  He even took her on vacation later.  So, I don't believe this excuse about his high moral standards.

My hypothetical situation was not Trench.

I again disagree.  I earn far more than does my husband.  Both my sisters make double what their husbands do.  I knew I would out earn my husband my entire career when I married him.  My sisters did not.  One just works in a very high demand field.  Her husband works in the same field, but is compensated less. 

Your argument is frivolous.  You are arguing from a defense attorney paradigm, where you are looking for exceptions to the rule to create a reasonable doubt.

The problem is that exceptions do not prove the rule.

Try looking at it from a statisticians perspective.  When taken in aggregate, women go for guys who are equal or higher in socio-economic status, which is heavily influenced by economic status.
Yes, there are exceptions where a girl goes for a guy who is lower status than her, but those are rare exceptions.  Women typically go for guys who are equal or higher in status than the girl.

It is irrelevant to say that you knew you would out earn your husband over your career.  When you entered the relationship, did you out earn him then?

I know many women who earn far more than their husbands.

Did they earn more than the guy when they entered the relationship?  That is what you have to look at.  Even if they out earned him then, were they still equal in socio-economic status?

It isn't necessarily a consideration in choosing a mate if a woman knows she will be able to support herself.

Steffi Graf has a net worth of $30 million.
She married Andre Agassi, who has a net worth of $175 million.

Why didn't she marry the guy in the stands?

[msmob]

Scenario: Long-term married woman with grown up kids v serially single guy with some 'interesting' viewpoints on the ideal woman ...

Who to believe ?

..and I'm not referring to poor 'ol Trenchie - for a change

[Bee Farmer]

Scenario: Long-term married woman with grown up kids v serially single guy with some 'interesting' viewpoints on the ideal woman ...

Who to believe ?

..and I'm not referring to poor 'ol Trenchie - for a change

Where in this thread has anyone been discussing the ideal woman?  (And how is your post relevant?  There's something missing in your post, which seems to require a giant leap to complete any logical thought sequence.)

[Boethius]

Your argument is frivolous.  You are arguing from a defense attorney paradigm, where you are looking for exceptions to the rule to create a reasonable doubt.  The problem is that exceptions do not prove the rule.

It is not such an exception.  Almost 40% of wives now out earn their husbands.

[Trenchcoat]

Gaspar, thanks for posting.
Sorry you had to make the mistakes that many here warn about, and that have been made by dozens (hundreds) of guys before you.
Many of us never will go except on WMVM trips, while others cast us as terrible people and will only go on WOVO trips such as yours.
Rarely are WMVM trips complete disasters, whereas many WOVO trips are disasters.
Most (unlike you) will not honestly admit to such.
And, as you now know, the worst kind of WOVO trip involves a vacation away from her home city for the gal.

In case you want to take a more logical, organized approach next time around, here is the guide:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0

As I found on my Lviv trip and my attempt at visit many. It isn't all that simple, it's like going back to square one of FSU dating and learning the visit many approach from day one rather than the visit one approach. It's like starting over and doing all the learning again.

Specifics need to be given as to EXACTLY what to do for the wmvm approach - I mean all the specific details. Otherwise the whole lot can end in a disaster. Like needing to know not to put questions in a list form, or not to mention to the women that you are meeting other women - as otherwise they will think you are a player and it all goes south.

Then there is the issue of communication Apps - Whatsapp, Viber and Skype and the different pace of girls communication. I'm not saying it is not still possible but I think it is easier to get hamstrung on the wmvm today than it was a few years ago when women pretty much all accepted the same way to go about it - write a few letters then accept a meet up or Skype a bit if guy was specializing in a meet one.

I just think the write many takes careful thinking and deployment more these days. For example some girls will message a lot on the abive said communication apps and expect prompt replies back some will just do the odd message every once in a while and be objectionable to a guy that wants to message a lot.

Now you could say what the hey with a wmvm approach. Keep it minimal and then just announce to her you wish to see her. It might work and the whole premise of the wmvm was to siphon out the girls who were most bothered I believe. I still wonder though if its throwing a lot of girls away needlessly.

That and the issue I had in Lviv was that I was feeling like I really was dating blind with minimal pre contact stuff with the girl.

ML how do you explain to the girl that you can only meet her for a meeting/few hours after messaging several letters with her?

[Nightwish]

As I found on my Lviv trip and my attempt at visit many. It isn't all that simple, it's like going back to square one of FSU dating and learning the visit many approach from day one rather than the visit one approach. It's like starting over and doing all the learning again.

Specifics need to be given as to EXACTLY what to do for the wmvm approach - I mean all the specific details. Otherwise the whole lot can end in a disaster. Like needing to know not to put questions in a list form, or not to mention to the women that you are meeting other women - as otherwise they will think you are a player and it all goes south.

Then there is the issue of communication Apps - Whatsapp, Viber and Skype and the different pace of girls communication. I'm not saying it is not still possible but I think it is easier to get hamstrung on the wmvm today than it was a few years ago when women pretty much all accepted the same way to go about it - write a few letters then accept a meet up or Skype a bit if guy was specializing in a meet one.

I just think the write many takes careful thinking and deployment more these days. For example some girls will message a lot on the abive said communication apps and expect prompt replies back some will just do the odd message every once in a while and be objectionable to a guy that wants to message a lot.

Now you could say what the hey with a wmvm approach. Keep it minimal and then just announce to her you wish to see her. It might work and the whole premise of the wmvm was to siphon out the girls who were most bothered I believe. I still wonder though if its throwing a lot of girls away needlessly.

That and the issue I had in Lviv was that I was feeling like I really was dating blind with minimal pre contact stuff with the girl.

ML how do you explain to the girl that you can only meet her for a meeting/few hours after messaging several letters with her?

To any normal thinking man with any experience of the opposite sex, this would never be an issue, that is simply something you never do, never ever ever ever... and 99.99999999997% of the male population knows this without having to be told..

do you want us to accompany you on your next trip and hold your hand also? Have the blanket and pacifier ready for when you get dumped again because you are simply not man enough for this..
you might be 40+ but your actions and thinking is one of a horny teenager with a hormone unbalance.

[John Gaunt]

As I found on my Lviv trip and my attempt at visit many. It isn't all that simple, it's like going back to square one of FSU dating

What do you mean ‘attempt at visit many’? IIRC, you had not communicated with any one from Lviv or arranged any meets prior to getting there.
In fact, weren’t you leering at women in the street and trying to get a date?

You haven’t left GO yet, never mind about getting back to square one.

Yet another example of Trench trying to portray himself as a bloke with mucho experience.   

I might be going to Kyiv next week for a few days. Want to come along, Trench? I’ll get to see you in action and report back. 

[Bee Farmer]

38% is not a rule.  It's less than a majority.  If you bet on something that was only 38%, you would be wrong 62% of the time.

But let's be completely honest about that 38%.

40% of the time a woman out earns a man in marriage, it is transitory and persists short term, such as the guy being laid off and inbetween jobs.  And if we're going to be completely honest, that 38% result was calculated after the 2008 recession which mainly resulted in men losing jobs, while it had basically no effect on female jobs.

Of marriages in which the woman earned more than the husband for 3 years straight or more, it was only 23% of wives.  (And in marriages when the husband or both are in paid work, it is 29% of wives earning more, meaning that in 9% of marriages, the husband does not work, and in another 6% of marriages, the man may have been laid off and accepted a part time job just to bring in some income until he could get back on his feet with a better job.)  Still, that is a jump from 1970, when only 10% of wives out earned their husbands.

This phenomenon is something new in the history of marriages.  What long term effects will it have?  We don't really know.  We do know though that to the degree that rights are extended to women, economic prosperity follows.

But what do we know so far about marriages when wives out earn husbands?  Women do not like it.  Men do not like it.  It may happen more now, but most people do not like it.

If the wife is the sole breadwinner, and the guy does not work, the husband is 5 times more likely to cheat on her.  In contrast, if a woman is entirely dependent on her husband, she is less likely to cheat.  (So guys, earning enough to support your wife so she doesn't have to work will decrease the chances that she will cheat on you.  On the other hand, a husband who earns significantly more than a wife increases the chances he will cheat on her.)

If the wife earns more, the chances of being in a "happy" marriage are 25 percentage points less compared to marriages where the man earns more.  They were also more likely to have discussed separating.

According to a 2017 study by the Pew Center, 71% of people said it was important for a man to be a good financial provider.  And interestingly, in marriages where the man has a job, 71% of the time he earns more than the lady.

[Boethius]

I never claimed it was a rule.  But when close to 40% of women marry men who earn less than they do, your assertion is not a fact set in stone either. 


Each of the marriages I specifically referred to are long term, all over 20 years.  I can think of dozens more.  It is not a factor, at least, not among the professional class.  Perhaps working class couples have more issues with it.

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22008.msg488931#msg488931
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22008.msg488938#msg488938


I don't think Trench has the skill set with women to succeed with a WMVM strategy.  I believe a man has to be exceptionally comfortable with women, even "smooth", to succeed with this type of strategy.  It's not a criticism of Trench, just my perception of whether or not he'll succeed with this. 


Most FSUW can sense if a man is communicating with many women.  Many of them will not accept that after an initial meeting.  They won't tell him why, he'll assume it was a "lack of chemistry".  I think a man has to be supremely confident to pull off this type of strategy, and be ready to go home with zero success.

[Steamer]

To any normal thinking man with any experience of the opposite sex, this would never be an issue, that is simply something you never do, never ever ever ever... and 99.99999999997% of the male population knows this without having to be told..

do you want us to accompany you on your next trip and hold your hand also? Have the blanket and pacifier ready for when you get dumped again because you are simply not man enough for this..
you might be 40+ but your actions and thinking is one of a horny teenager with a hormone unbalance.

Aw c'mon relax. We're all kicking ideas back and forth and even bad ideas or experiences have a teaching element to them.

[Davo2]

Try looking at it from a statisticians perspective.  When taken in aggregate, women go for guys who are equal or higher in socio-economic status, which is heavily influenced by economic status.
Yes, there are exceptions where a girl goes for a guy who is lower status than her, but those are rare exceptions. 

I have a story about the first woman I dated after my divorce, karma and being an extreme exception to that rule. Probably will be a short novel, but I hope it will be as entertaining as a good trip report.

I've talked about my ex before and her behaviour during our relationship. After a series of affairs she hooked up with a special effects producer (now husband ) for RSP, who earns twice the amount than I do and before I kicked her, she let me know that..... FSU gold diggers have nothing on her!!!

Four months later I met a woman, i'll call "K", in a local pub (my mate was chatting up her friend and sent her my way). I was completely oblivious to her advances and can't even remember our conversation, as I was stressing due to a bogus DV order placed on me by my EX. All I remember is she looked pretty, but was intoxicated and a little disheveled. She was 28, 11 years younger than me. When she left she asked for my number.

I forgot all about the encounter until a month later when she called out of the blue and invited me for coffee at her local McDonald's, which by chance is where my daughter works. I changed the date to my local restaurant.

I arrived early and remember almost calling it off. I was in no frame of mind to start dating again and bringing a woman in to the mess that was my life was a huge mistake in my  mind.

10 minutes later a stunning blonde, petite woman walked in and my jaw hit the floor, she looked nothing like our first encounter and I had lost weight so my appearance had also changed.

We ordered coffee and sat down. Almost immediately she come out and told me my mate had given her a brief rundown of my situation, she was going through the same thing..... Husband (also a serial cheater) had cheated and left for another woman, leaving her with a young 3 year old daughter. The day we met, she was out on a pub crawl with her friend celebrating her filing for divorce.

It dawned on me that she had no interest in me, except someone to talk to and shares the same experience. For the first hour our conversation indicated this...... We shared our tale of misery and discussed our approaching court dates.

The last hour of our date was the  opposite, we talked about us,  our families, life goals etc... I was very natural and was as if we had known each other for years, she even began to flirt a little

Our date drew to a conclusion. She had to return home as her baby sitter could only watch her daughter until 10pm. We both agreed we had a good time and decided to meet again the following week.

The next night we chatted for hours. The following evening after that,  I was preparing our car for a race meet the following day, which usually involves drinking bourbon and talking bs, with a little work thrown also. K called at 10 and asked if I wanted to go out and see some live music. I was happy to, but I couldn't drink as I was at my limit of passing the random breath testing that occurs in scrutineering. She was going to pick me up in an hour.

An hour and a half later, she called an was still getting ready.... This was something my ex excelled at. Finally she arrived in a nice new BMW that looked totally out of place next to my old SS commodore in the driveway. She suggested we go back to hers for some wine as the band had almost finished.

This is where panic set in. I could read between the lines, I knew where this was heading. I had spent the last 5 months on a crash diet and lost 100lbs, that with the stress of fighting a dv order,  family court and the fact  I had only been with one woman my whole life, made me concerned I wouldn't have any hope of performing in bed. I was nervous as all hell.

Although I knew my daughter worked in one of the most affluent suburbs of my city, I was not expecting to arrive at what could only be described as an 1800's mansion.... It made my 5 bedroom home look like a granny flat. K had said her husband had worked it the banking sector, so I suspected he has the one who enabled them to have such an amazing residence.

After a quick tour that ended in the wine cellar and almost finishing two bottles of red, I'm happy to say I had nothing to be concerned about in the down stairs department, in fact I spent the following hour largely thinking about sport so I didn't seem like a one minute wonder ..... I never made it to my race meet.

We discussed where or relationship was going and K made it clear that once her divorce was finalised and her house was sold, she would be returning to NSW to be with her family. She was really only looking for a causal relationship (but exclusive), with no strings attached. I was happy with this, I had a lot on my plate and didn't have the time to fully commit to a relationship.

Over the next 6 months we met for coffee at McDonald's every Thursday and spent every Saturday night together, partying and crashing at her house. She would never allow me to pay for anything despite my insistence.  I distanced my kids from the relationship as my ex had introduced them to her affair partner very early on and their reaction caused them to have emotional issues, which is the main reason I have custody of them and why my oldest 3 didn't have anything to do with their mother for over a year.

In a great dose of karma, my ex told me when she come to collect some clothes, a week after our break up, that I would never meet anyone as attractive as her and I would be alone forever.... The look on her face when she saw me after i'd lost weight and  with a stunningly attractive younger woman hanging off my arm, was priceless. My ex had just given birth to twins and her high flying lifestyle she had expected wasn't eventuating like she had  planned. Where I had turned my life around from a depressed shell of my former self to someone unrecognisable, in the space of 5-6 months.

K was awesome, she was always very positive and lifted my spirits even when things were getting nasty legally with my Ex. She helped me prepare for my court cases and although I had a very good lawyer, she seemed to have 24 hour phone access to her lawyer and he helped me out often with any legal questions or issues I had.

Eventually her divorce was finalised and regrettably her house was sold and she prepared to leave my state. We had fallen in love and she asked me to consider moving with her. I  considered it for an hour, but I concluded that I couldn't leave my kids because they refused to live with their mother.

She left, but we continued a long distance relationship. She returned on the Australia day long weekend as her uncle, who lived in Glenelg (a suburb by the sea and an entertainment precinct), was having his 60th birthday.

This is where every thing fell into place. She had told me that her father was born in the US and had been married previously to an american woman, they had a daughter and then divorced. Her dad was involved in mining and while in Australia met her mum. He moved to Australia with K's step sister not long after.
Her father had 2 brothers, one still in the US and the other fell in love with Australia and moved to Glenelg.

On the day of her uncles birthday we planned to travel to the airport and meet her family, including her uncle and cousins from the US. After I was going having lunch and get to know K's parents.

I knew something was odd when we didn't go to the domestic / international terminal, instead we arrived at a private hanger and I preceded to watch her family depart from a hired private jet. They had all flown in from Sydney, where K's parents live. I remember turning to K and saying you have some explaining to do, she gave me a wink and a cheeky grin.


On the trip back to their hotel in the city, she explained that her uncles and father were very successful business men and run a family company, that has it's hand in many interests in the US, Australia and South Africa. It  wasn't her husband that created their wealth it was her family. I won't talk  figures, but her personal expense account had a balance that is more than I will ever earn for the rest of my life.

We arrive at the Hyatt and went straight to the penthouse where k was staying with her parents. It was a real eye opener to how the other half live. We went to lunch at a small restaurant near the casino next door and I was amazed to find her parents were very down to earth and treated me like family. Later after a few drinks, her mum jokingly  grabbed me on the butt and said if her daughter didn't marry me she would!!

We went back to the penthouse to meet the rest of her family for pre-party drinks and cigars on the balcony. Her Uncle who's birthday it was, was going to the hospital to spend time with his wife, after a  minor operation, so we had some time to kill, before travelling to Glenelg for dinner at her uncles, friends restaurant.

Her uncle from the US is quite the gambler after several more rounds of Glenfiddich, we headed for the casino. I don't gamble at all, I feel guilty when I lose $5 on the pokies, so when I was invited to the Grange room (high roller) I didn't pass up the opportunity. Watching people gamble more $50,000+ on a hand of poker actually made me depressed. I stayed for two drinks and left K's uncle to it.

Eventually it was time to go to dinner so we planned to catch a lift with K's cousins who had hired a car for the weekend. Down in the car park, I was a little surprised to see K's cousins do a line of coke and K also did a little, which she had told me in the past she does occasionally  socially. I've smoked a little pot in my time, but I politely declined when offered some also.

It took them some convincing not to drive as random drug testing is quite common on the highway from the city to Glenelg, especially on a Saturday night. Kate called her uncle to pick me up on his return from the hospital,  she knew I was a car enthusiast and I was chauffeured to the party in a DB9 ( I still hang out with her uncle occasionally and have had the chance to dirive it at a track day, it makes my ex speedway supersedan feel like a shopping trolley )

Dinner was great, fresh Port Lincoln and Coffin bay, seafood (my stomping ground as a teenager) and the drinks flowed all night. After we went back to K's Uncles house, a modern 2 story mansion on the beach with an under ground man cave and bar.

 I don't drink often, but can hold my own. All night K's US cousins, who range from 21-25, were stirring me up how how Yanks can drink Aussies under the table, in a very light hearted international rivalry. After the formalities of the night were  finished I accepted a challenge (ignoring the alcohol ban on the beach), to go shot for shot until sunrise and then swim between two lines drawn on the sand. The winner takes the bragging rights. It was a matter of pride and I was the only one who managed to make it in the water, but I paid for it shocking for the next two days.

During the night I discussed with K, why she was so secretive about her families success and she said she had been bombarded by guys who only saw her for her families money after she broke up with her ex and dating a normal guy like me was a breath of fresh air. She did admit she only wanted someone to talk to who was going through the same situation, but one thing lead to another and here we were.

People are drawn together by circumstance good and bad. K was the first of 3 women I dated who were divorced due to an affair and even the FSU woman I talked to for the past year and a half was drawn to me due to the same situation regarding her ex and children's issues.... I'm happy to say after taking far too long to visit and her going cold on the idea, things have improved recently after some breathing space, I'm off too Russia in December to finally meet her.

Back to my long winded story......

A few days later k and her family were leaving and we again had lunch with her  parents. Her dad had a proposal for me. He offered me a job in one of his mining equipment businesses, as a  heavy machining supervisor (a job I've done before). It involve working on projects for a period of time in the factory and then flying out to help oversee the installation on predominantly Australian mine sites, but occasionally Papua New Guinea and the Kimberly region of South Africa.


This was an ideal opportunity. I was going to be paid 3 times the wage + a fifo bonus, a free house to live in (it was an investment property that needed some work), a company car and my kids would be put through a private school..... Even more important I would be with the woman I feel in love with. After talking to my lawyer, he said it would be difficult, but as my kids were estranged from their mother it could be a possibility to move them interstate.

My Ex was seething ..... I had achieved everything she wanted when we broke up. A wealthy partner and planned to live with her and our kids, in a family unit. She hired an absolute bitch of a lawyer and went to town on me and K in her affidavits. Eventually the judge ruled in her favour.

That was the beginning of the end for me and K. We did meet regularly, but it was difficult being apart and we both agreed that if we met other  people, as long as we were honest with each other before it got serious that we would move in  happily. She met someone first and I must admit it was hard for me, but when I met another woman k felt the same way. We have on occasion both been single since and have basically hooked up as it's comfortable and familiar. Who knows what the future holds, but it will be a good 7 years until my kids leave home and k is now running one of her family companies and is stationed in NSW. We still chat every couple of months and I catch up when she visits her uncle.

How does this all relate to trench? ..... I think I would still be struggling with dating if I didn't meet K (attempting to or dating anyone locally has to be your starting point). She took me from a bad place to a positive place. I regained my confidence and realised anything is possible with the right attitude and not letting her be the blame for my insecurities, which were many back then.... That's what you need to be attractive and successful in dating or anything in life. Not arrogant confidence, just a belief that you are a great catch and better than the other guys who are your competition.

The women who have come into my life and  best suited me (apart from k) has been when I have been happy, enjoying life and not even looking for someone.

[Bee Farmer]

But when close to 40% of women marry men who earn less than they do, your assertion is not a fact set in stone either.

Where are you coming up with 40% of women marrying men who earn less than them?  That is NOT what the research data indicates.  The data indicates that right after tons of guys lost their jobs after the 2008 recession, 38% of wives were earning more than their husbands.  However, if both were working, only 23% of wives out earned their husbands consistently over several years.

Furthermore, the research data says NOTHING about their incomes when the relationship began, which is what I am discussing.  That is the question you need to focus on.  It is irrelevant to look at income disparities after they have been married.  You need to look at how many women were out earning the men when their relationships began. 

40% of women are not marrying men who earn less than them.  That income disparity may occur after they have been married, but they are not entering that relationship with that kind of disparity.

Davo, you have just showed how you can never divorce someone if you have kids.  She was looking for a rebound fling, just something to help her self-esteem.  You were someone disposable, simply because you were in a lower socio-economic position.  That is what she was looking for.  Do you really think she would have looked for a rebound fling from someone who was in a comparable status to her?  I think not.

And, people who use cocaine or other drugs are not exactly known for making normal choices, nor are they what most people would consider to be relationship material.

msmob, I'm still waiting on you to clarify your post about the guy who had interesting viewpoints of the ideal woman.  It sure appeared that you were making a dig at me.  Your post gives the impression that you thought my comment about 'how many women of similar age is he going to find who have never been married, have no kids, physically fit, no tattoos, doesn't abuse alcohol or drugs or tobacco, has Christian values, etc.?' was a descriptor of my ideal woman, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion and make any assumptions.  (If you do in fact think that is a description of anyone's ideal woman, then that is terribly pathetic and incredibly sad, and speaks volumes about your values, and the quality, or lack thereof, of the women you have encountered in life.  That description was a bare-bones minimum standard for me to consider looking further to examine the prospects of a potential relationship with a girl.  If someone thinks that is a description of an ideal lady, that means they have standards that are much, much lower than that, which is really sad.)

[Davo2]

Talking about Infidelity, due to my past I've been a moderator on Infidelity recovery sites and over the past 3 years have helped many including some face to face heal.

There are reports I've read that indicate that 70% of long term relationships / have had single incidents, emotional affairs or full blown physical affairs and given the people I talk to, it is spread right across the spectrum and even very happy marriages. 70% seems high, but many people are embarrassed even to admit it being an abuser or a victim during  anonymous surveys. I've been there. I hid it for more than 20 years. Don't ever think you are immune to it, while you're innocently on this site, what's your partner doing???


Women are catching up to men and may even surpass men now, again as men are less likely to admit they have been cheated on even in anonymous surveys. Looking at the traffic on affair recover sites, it's probably 50/50. I'm a member of a single father's group of 10,000 and in a recent survey 41% had experienced some form of Infidelity.

[Bee Farmer]

And the reason for all the infidelity?  If you don't know what causes it, you can never know how to prevent it...

Technically, if one spouse is spending so much time on kids that the other spouse feels neglected, that is considered an emotional affair.

Personally, I don't buy into the emotional affair stuff, because it is based upon how the victim feels, rather than what the other person actually does.

[msmob]

Once again, BF  you haven't experienced  such situations as either the 'victim' or perpetrator ?

WHY are  you posting theorised bolllox about LTR;s you have zip experience off ?

[Bee Farmer]

Msmob, once again, you are the one posting the bollox, when you don't know what you are talking about.

Just because someone has never been married doesn't mean they have never had a long term relationship.  It just means that for whatever reason, they have managed to avoid the pitfalls and mistakes made by people who got married and divorced.

However, if someone is divorced, we know they don't know how to have a successful marriage.  They know how to fail, and that they accept failure as an option.  (If they do not accept failure, they would dedicate their lives to trying to reconcile.)  We also know that if they ever pursue another relationship after divorce, that means they have no integrity and can never be trusted.  After all, they gave their word to someone who was supposed to be the most important person in the world to them, that they would never leave, no matter what, and they would never get involved with anyone else until death parted them.
A person is only as good as their word.  If they will break their word to the person who is supposed to be the most important person in the world to them, how can anyone else ever trust anything they say?

People of good intentions make promises.
People of good character keep their promises.

WHY are  you posting theorised bolllox about LTR;s you have zip experience off ?

Perhaps a better question is, why are you posting bollox about marriages, when you have dishonored your marital vows?

[msmob]

Msmob, once again, you are the one posting the bollox, when you don't know what you are talking about.

You remind me of a RC Priest 'advising' folks on relationships

Just because someone has never been married doesn't mean they have never had a long term relationship.  It just means that for whatever reason, they have managed to avoid the pitfalls and mistakes made by people who got married and divorced.

From how you have posted on your ideal relationship - ( particularly the lady's previous sexual experience ) I'm wondering if that is some kind of 'excuse' ? 

However, if someone is divorced, we know they don't know how to have a successful marriage. 

WRONG .. it is entirely possible to marry someone who changes their behaviour and becomes 'unreasonable' ...  That is but one circumstance ...You just proved your 'expertise' to comment on such matters ... thanks ...

Perhaps a better question is, why are you posting bollox about marriages, when you have dishonored your marital vows?

I'm posting from having worn the t-shirt and accepting my part in any failure ....   Hardly 'bollox'...

It's FAR more relevant and pertinent than your wacko 'theorising'

Indeed, I have vowed before God Almighty - and broken those wows...  not without a GREAT deal of careful thought and the happiness of my daughters - seeking council from the Church ..

'Carry on' ...

[Boethius]

Just because someone has never been married doesn't mean they have never had a long term relationship.  It just means that for whatever reason, they have managed to avoid the pitfalls and mistakes made by people who got married and divorced.

Sorry, I disagree with this.  Until you have lived with someone, day in, day out, for years,  you do not truly know that person.  Sometimes, even when you have lived together, you don't know the person.  You will also get a completely different understanding of your partner if you have children together.  You will see facets of your partner you have never seen before, probably both positive and negative.  Children cause a lot of stress on good parents, and on a marriage.