Just the FACTS - Arab- Israeli conflict

[Misha]

The wish to return to their land and reclaim it as state remains, even after 50 years and while given full integration.

And imagine if the the Dutch were providing them rockets and arms to continually attack the Molukken Islands. Yes, individuals may harbor fantasies of return, but I have yet to hear the Dutch state adopt as its official policy the reconquest of any island and the driving of its inhabitants into the sea 

[BC]

On the other hand.. the mere idea of Jews keeping some other population behind barbed wire fences just makes me sick.  As much as there is a gigantic magnet in my soul that draws me to Israel.. I have never visited because I am in protest of the situation and I will never visit until they can set things straight with the Palestinians.  I know tons of other Jews that feel the same way.

A wall, however built has two sides.

Ain't no getting around it.

[kievstar]

Mir, no one said it was just middle east having wars.  

[OlgaH]

After thousands of years of conflict, I say just let them go at it until it's over.

until is over... and what is an end? Israel totally occupies or destroys Palestine?... Do you think Muslim World will be happy with such end?

Muslim world slams Gaza carnage
http://www.twocircles.net/2008dec29/muslim_world_slams_gaza_carnage.html


Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued a religious directive, or fatwa, calling on Muslims to stand up and defend Palestinians against Israel. Though Mr. Khamenei didn't spell out exactly what he intended, his comments were seized upon in Iran as the latest rallying cry against Israel.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051201513538497.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Sculpto]

I just got this from a Jewish friend who is actvely trying to stop the carnage.

---------------
here are some local resources on the ground over there sent to me by Jim...
"The Gaza Community Mental Health Program is very trustworthy, longstanding promoters of nonviolence and providing services to their community in Gaza.

BUSTAN is an environmental group of Bedouins and Israelis in the Negev, but they are involved in Gaza too. Their work building a straw bale health clinic where the Bedouin have lived for eons and are being herded into permanent settlements is eerily reminiscent of what happened to Native Americans.

There is also Friends of the Earth Middle East that does good work on water rights sharing.

I support Jewish Voice for Peace, and there are many resources on their website too.
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
Jerusalem Peacemakers and the Abrahamic Reunion
http://zochrot.org/index.php?lang=english is Israelis who remind their society that there were villages there before 1948."

[Blues Fairy]

until is over... and what is an end? Israel totally occupies or destroys Palestine?... Do you think Muslim World will be happy with such end?

Nooooo, of course not.  Let's make them happy and let them destroy and occupy Israel like they want to.

[OlgaH]

Nooooo, of course not.  Let's make them happy and let them destroy and occupy Israel like they want to.

Blues Fairy, is it your point of view on this issue? Poor Israel   

[Misha]

Nooooo, of course not.  Let's make them happy and let them destroy and occupy Israel like they want to.

That is the goal. All you have to do is read the Hamas Charter. Here is an excerpt:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

First Palestine then Al-Andalus (i.e. Spain)  

This is why negotiating with Hamas is not realistic:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

    "The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

What is the ideal solution envisaged by Hamas:

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

Simply put, they can tolerate to Jews and Christians in Palestine, but as long as they are under Muslim rule. Under these circumstance, how is peace possible? How can you negotiate a peace treaty when the goal of the other side is to oblitarate you through any and all means possible?

Source: http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

[Sculpto]

Blues Fairy, is it your point of view on this issue? Poor Israel   

If she is not being sarcastic.. well.. I can't even imagine it..

[wxman]

Eventually a terrorist will deploy a tactical nuke there, whether in Israel or Palestine.  It's just a matter of time. It not the knowledge of making a nuke that is lacking, just the required parts. It will happen there, it will happen here. As with every weapon, they eventually become massed produced.

[kievstar]

I am actually rooting for Hamas.  Sick and tired of Israel.  Have any of you ever been to that country?  More hookers per person than any place in the World.  I hated it when there and going through airport is not a good experience. USA is in bed with Israel since many politicians are Jewish in USA.  I hope Israel goes for another ground warfare and falls for the trap and gets its ass kicked.  Seems like they want the rapture to start.

I know many people from the Middle East and there view is Jewish people do not belong there.  One side has to be wiped out for peace.  Sounds harsh but they hate each other there. 

[wxman]

Humans are just glorified apes. We will eventually make ourselves extinct as we have one skill that stands out above all other skills. The ability to efficiently commit acts of mass extermination.

[Gator]

More hookers per person than any place in the World. 

Getting this thread focused on RW, how will the current turmoil affect the prostitution business?  Will hookers be prompted to return to the FSU, where they will list themselves with a marriage agency as "seeking a good man to love and to give him a cozy home."

  

[Lit_1nce]

USA is in bed with Israel since many politicians are Jewish in USA. 


 I hope Israel goes for another ground warfare and falls for the trap and gets its ass kicked.  Seems like they want the rapture to start.

I think it's more of an lobbyist issue, with Israel being the largest customer for our arm sales.. lots of money in that, legitimate and illegitimate.. But also being a predominantly Christian country with the lessons of the Holocaust most politicians regardless of their personal religion are going to side with Israel. (right or wrong)

I think you might want to rethink the rapture thing.. That's a Christian belief.

[OlgaH]

One side has to be wiped out for peace.  Sounds harsh but they hate each other there. 

Just let's return Gaza Strip to Egypt (according to the British Mandate  ) and let Egypt deal with it

Gaza is the largest city in the Gaza Strip... Ancient Gaza was a prosperous trade center and a stop on the caravan route between Egypt and Syria. In ancient times, Gaza was the residence of the Ancient Egyptian governor of the region, then known as Canaan

[OlgaH]

Humans are just glorified apes.

[youtube=425,350]H9MxTRspXpQ[/youtube]

[OlgaH]

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe
by Avi Shlaim, a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford and the author of The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World and of Lion of Jordan: King Hussein's Life in War and Peace.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism.

Who Murdered the Oslo Accords?
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/peace/oslo/041902murder.htm

The Oslo Accords mandated the P.A. to build a police force to maintain law and order, which it did. The acts of violence that erupted, especially under the Netanyahu regime, were organized by the militant Palestinian organization Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. Both have been, since their founding, sworn enemies of Arafat's P.A. Hamas was in fact created and nurtured by Israeli intelligence networks—officially—as a counterweight to Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization in the 1980s (see Dean Andromidas, "Israeli Roots of Hamas Are Being Exposed," EIR, Jan. 18, 2002). Sharon personally was involved in promoting Hamas in its early activities.

[Sculpto]

I am actually rooting for Hamas.  Sick and tired of Israel.  Have any of you ever been to that country?  More hookers per person than any place in the World.  I hated it when there and going through airport is not a good experience. USA is in bed with Israel since many politicians are Jewish in USA.  I hope Israel goes for another ground warfare and falls for the trap and gets its ass kicked.  Seems like they want the rapture to start.

I know many people from the Middle East and there view is Jewish people do not belong there.  One side has to be wiped out for peace.  Sounds harsh but they hate each other there. 

I know which web site you are reading.  Kiev.. you have exposed yourself.  It is the warped view of reality that you express here that actually makes Jews turn a blind eye when Israel does things like bomb Gaza.  Thanks for reminding me.

[Shadow]

I know which web site you are reading.  Kiev.. you have exposed yourself.  It is the warped view of reality that you express here that actually makes Jews turn a blind eye when Israel does things like bomb Gaza.  Thanks for reminding me.

Sculpto, take a look at the list of what both parties must do to make lasting peace.
Then take the requirements of either side and think about making a campaign to get enough people behind it for a majority vote.
Do you think there is a remote chance of that list succeeding  ?
If not the leaders of any party have a huge problem. All their efforts to make peace will be blown out of the window by the next elections.

[kievstar]

which website is that scultp, I have no problems with Jewish people.  I have an issue with Israel.

[kievstar]

Scultpo have you ever been to Israel? I have.  It is terrible what goes on there.  Not saying the rest of middle east is any better but Israel should have a higher standard.

Women trafficked from Eastern Europe, were stripped and sold naked as slaves to Tel Aviv traders for US$500-1,000. Smuggling, fraudulent documents, collaboration between police and brothel owners are involved. There are routine brutal beatings and sexual abuse. Men pay for 25,000 acts of prostitution every day. There are 250,000 foreign male workers who help create a demand for prostituted women. Women are held in apartments, bars and brothels where they are bought by up to 15 men a day. They sleep in shifts, four to a bed. (New York Times 11 January 1998)

£2.5 billion (US$4 billion) of organized crime money from the former Soviet Union has been invested in Israeli real estate, businesses and banks in the past seven years. Gregory Lerner, who was arrested in 1997 for defrauding four Russian banks of £70 million (US$106 million), was reputedly sent to Israel to head up one of the money laundering operations. One highly profitable area in which organized crime thrives is prostitution. Dozens of brothels and peepshows have sprung up in Tel Aviv and Haifa in the last few years. (Former police chief Asaf Hefetz, Kevin Connolly "How Russia’s mafia is taking over Israel’s underworld" BBC, (3 April 1998)

 In 2007, the United States State Department placed Israel as a "Tier 2" in its annual Trafficking in Persons reports, meaning that it does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking.

[Mir]

Misha

The Germans or the Japanese did not accept anything, they just had no choice.
If the Germans had accepted they would not have reunited their country.
The point is that for their acceptance of the fait accompli they were given sufficient incentives in the form of massive US assistance to develop their countries. So instead of making wars they decided on making money. For after all the reason for WW1 and 2 was the feeling by certain European powers that they did not have a chance to create wealth as certain other powers had already colonized the world (and hence the markets). Using it as an alalogy to Israel-Palestinian conflict is absurd since the Palestinians have been forced to live like subhumans in their ghettos, much the same as the Red Indians, Aborigines and the Jews were in the past.

[Mir]

Getting this thread focused on RW,

Yes let's do that:

GAZA, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Recovery teams ventured into battlegrounds of the Gaza Strip on Thursday to gather bodies from the rubble, and Hamas officials said the Palestinian death toll in Israel's 13-day-old offensive had risen to 765.

The dead included a Ukrainian woman and her 2-year-old child, killed in their house in Gaza as a result of shelling by an Israeli tank. The woman's 12-year-old daughter has been hospitalized, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry said. The tragedy occurred in the eastern Tufah area of Gaza at around 4 p.m. on Jan. 8, the ministry said.

A Gaza health official says the woman is the first foreign national to die in nearly two weeks of violence in the Palestinian territory.

[Sculpto]

Kiev...

There are a lot of whorehouses in the world.. Bankok especially comes to mind.  I do not argue that Tel Aviv has become one of them and it is beyond sad. 

But...

Hamas does not represent a positive outcome for anyone, least of all the Palestinians they claim to represent.  Palestinians are not a homogenous people.. they are multi ethnic and multi religious.  A jihadist Palestine is no good for anyone, including the Palestinians themselves.

Israel is no paradise.  But, given the choices for Jews there are few options available except for them to do what they do. 

Not long ago I posted some stuff about what happened in Odessa last year.  A call to kill Jews was spread around Ukraine.  Who is coming to their rescue?  Israel.  I heard anti semetic comments almost every day I was in Moscow.  When I was in Donetsk my Ukrianian friend Sergei made similiar comments, until I told him I am a Jew and he admitted he had never met a Jew before.  What basis did he have for his anti semetism?  None!

There are not many Jews on this planet.  About 14 million.  For whatever reasons as a culture we manage to be a magnet for problems.  At the same time we have successes that defy our numbers.

The situation in Gaza is totally tragic.  I am disgusted by what is happening there.  But, to root for Hamas, as if it is some kind of game, is really perverse.  It would be about equal to saying the Taliban were good for Afganistan. 

It is very easy to point fingers at Israel and say they are the bad guys, and they have been bad, but, if yu look at the bigger picture, the sheer numbers of Muslims that are aligned against them, who is really the David and who is really the Goliath? 

[Misha]

Palestinians have been forced to live like subhumans in their ghettos, much the same as the Red Indians, Aborigines and the Jews were in the past.

Who exactly are making them feel subhuman in the refugee camps in neighboring Middle Eastern countries? Fellow Arabs. Hardly the same as the "Red Indians" or the Jews in the past.