FSW learning of the English Language

[Trenchcoat]

Ok so as many of you will know I am paying for English lessons for my girl. Now I don't doubt her dedication and think she is learning a fair bit in the short time she has been at it over the last few weeks. I never expected instant results however I am a little concerned that the approach of the tutor may be wrong footed. My girl has apparently been learning grammar, now as we know all the different tenses & ins & outs can be an almost exhaustive subject. Yet I don't believe it is that worthy in actually learning the English Language. I think that her time and in fact any student trying to learn English, perhaps any foreign language would be better spent on vocabulary building. The grammar I believe would fall in bit by bit anyway after this, much as us native English pick it up naturally over our early years.

I know the first girl I met who had almost perfect English and I would say was fluent (she just thought/said she was good, lol but in no way was she anything but fluent) well she had actually been tested on how many English words she knew and it was in the several thousand, roughly. Hence why I think vocabulary building is most imperative. After all problems with grammar we can usually make out what is meant even if the sentence is not that good grammatically. Now I did a short weekend TEFL course last year and part of what I generally took away is that commonly foreign instructors & students tend to get to caught up in trying to grapple with all the ins & outs of grammar.

Now naturally I have not expressed my concern to my girl, I would not wish to put her off the great effort she is obviously putting in at this stage (she has shown me her book of English grammar words she has written down) even though there is not necessarily that much of a difference in her English as she can speak it which I believe is due to her tutor's focus on grammar. I have not yet asked her but my guess is that her tutor is not a native speaker of English. Apparently, she has told me she has been summarising the grammar she has been taught and I don't blame her as grammar can be real long winded.

Anyway I was wondering if others have had much in the way of experience of their girl learning English and what they found and make of all of this? 

[Boethius]

I've learned 4 foreign languages, only 1 of which I'm still fluent in. My husband speaks over a dozen, 9 fluently. My take, and his, is that you must learn grammar as it is the bones of a language. Vocabulary will come. Most people only use between 120-160 words daily.

Sandro is a polyglot. He also has a better grasp of English grammar than most native speakers.  His view on this would be interesting.

[calmissile]

My wife spent a year at CAL STATE SBO at about $4K per quarter.  She was enrolled in the English Language program.  They focused on the grammar and like for the most part.  After a year, I decided to not spend $4k per quarter on a non-credit program any longer.  What a racket.  She also was enrolled earlier in the ESL program locally which was nearly free, but a night or two a week would take a lifetime.

On the other hand, our daughter went into the first grade and spoke and comprehended English within 6 months.  No one would know she was not a native English speaker now at the end of the 2nd grade.  I asked the school prior to their arrival how my daughter could learn English and whether special classes were necessary.  I was told to not worry about it they use the immersion process.  In other words, they threw her into the class with the kids and I was assured she would learn English quickly.  In fact she did.

I suppose my conclusion is that if you can learn to speak and understand English most quickly by immersion with other English speakers, then after you have learned to communicate you can then learn the grammar and related skills later.  I suspect most immigrants would prefer to be able to communicate first and become a grammar expert later.

[msmob]

Trench, you are basing your viewpoints as a native English speaker. In the UK, we tend not to study grammar of our own language until we are already fluent.  In most other European nations kids aren't taught how to write until 7.  By 10 most kids have over-taken UK kids... but we never learn..((

Learning Grammar - first - is the wiser route... leave it to the experts

[Boethius]

I agree moby.  If you don't know the basics of grammar, you can't communicate effectively.

My husband learned grammar first. He could read English well but couldn't speak when he came here. He spoke fluently within about eight months of his arrival, and we didn't use English at all at home for the first three months from his arrival.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro is a polyglot. He also has a better grasp of English grammar than most native speakers.  His view on this would be interesting.

Learning grammar and vocabulary should go hand in hand.

Unfortunately, grammar is such a bore to most, although I think this is basically the fault of how most teach it .

Let me tell you how I learnt English. In my time a foreign language was taught in 7th grade, and I am eternally grateful to my father who spoke French fluently for deciding that I should learn English instead - "the language of the future", he had said rightly: it was instrumental for most of my professional career later.

So it started with grammar - which I found boring   but was resigned to it since they had started me on Latin in 6th grade, more complicated - and a little vocabulary.

A family tradition was that I should go and have lunch at my grandparents' on Thursdays after school. This involved changing from one trolley car line to another and around noon I always had to wait about 10' before being able to do that.

The square where the 2 lines met still has a large news stand, so to while away the time I would loiter around it looking at the magazines on display. To my delight I discovered that they sold Walt Disney's comic books (Dell Comics, IIRC) .

At the time the Italian version was in a small pocket-book format, with 1 coloured page every 4 or so, while the US version was in A4 and full colour . Therefore I started buying it regularly, and after a couple of months I was at the top of my class in English - the vocabulary and syntax of comics are deliberately simple, since their intended audience is mainly kids.

So whenever acquaintances learning a new language ask me for suggestions, I tell them to plod through grammar AND read something on a subject that interests them, be that butterflies, Medieval armour, ships, whatever.

This has a double advantage:
1. Not getting bored.
2. Not having to consult a dictionary too frequently: context helps guessing meanings, although it may lead to blunders occasionally: a neighbour would lend me copies of the Daily American, a newspaper which had a feature called News in Brief surmounted by an eagle. Having learnt before what a Briefing Room was used for, I concluded that Brief meant Flight . It took me a while to realise it actually meant Short .
 
The above applies to written language, spoken language is a totally different matter (see The Haphazard Spelling of English on www.floriani.it/Miscellanea-eng.htm), but I will not go into that now for fear of being a bore .

[mhr7]

I agree moby.  If you don't know the basics of grammar, you can't communicate effectively.

My husband learned grammar first. He could read English well but couldn't speak when he came here. He spoke fluently within about eight months of his arrival, and we didn't use English at all at home for the first three months from his arrival.

If you don't know vocabulary you can't communicate at all. It is more important and useful than grammar, which can be learned along the way. I know a lot of Russian vocab but my grammar needs work, I can get my meaning across with just vocab. In the FSU, language tends to be taught with a heavy emphasis on grammar and less on speaking, which is how your husband learned I'm sure. Sandro is right, grammar/vocab learning should go hand in hand for the best result.

[Trenchcoat]

If you don't know vocabulary you can't communicate at all. It is more important and useful than grammar, which can be learned along the way. I know a lot of Russian vocab but my grammar needs work, I can get my meaning across with just vocab. In the FSU, language tends to be taught with a heavy emphasis on grammar and less on speaking, which is how your husband learned I'm sure. Sandro is right, grammar/vocab learning should go hand in hand for the best result.

I think you're right I have heard similar about teaching English in the FSU - it is mostly text book based and somewhat artificial. Like you say not a great emphasis on speaking and a lot on grammar - so much so that there is an obsession by some on grammar that it overshadows the other aspects of learning the language.

Sandro's input is interesting and from what I have seen western TEFL courses now emphasize being able to set the language in context against a picture, etc. so very much follow what he has found to be best practice when learning a language.

Personally I would rather hear vocabulary that is incorrectly spoken in terms of grammar than too little vocabulary. To me it doesn't take a genius to work out that I'm talking to a foreigner with imperfect English and a need on my part to translate what they are saying into the correct grammar which of course to native speakers is not often a problem, the occasional hiccup aside which many grammar nazis tend to make big off.

I know many native speakers of English are prized as language teachers as they know the language as their first language. If I was teaching English language in the FSU I think I would just throw the grammar books out and really get he student to spend time beefing up their English as much as possible first. 

[Boethius]

Yes, but you are wanting someone to learn English in a manner in which she can function normally in your society.  If she can get her point across, but does so in an inelegant way, others will judge her and it will restrict her employment opportunities.

[msmob]

I think you're right I have heard similar about teaching English in the FSU - it is mostly text book based and somewhat artificial.

OMG  Trench - you're 'at it again

I've been invited to be a guest speaker - at 3 different English schools - and you couldn't be more wrong ..From the Beatles to getting out and about and being a Google Guide - I see plenty of interaction and little blackboard or recital ..

Personally I would rather hear vocabulary that is incorrectly spoken in terms of grammar than too little vocabulary. To me it doesn't take a genius to work out that I'm talking to a foreigner with imperfect English and a need on my part to translate what they are saying into the correct grammar which of course to native speakers is not often a problem, the occasional hiccup aside which many grammar nazis tend to make big off.

I know many native speakers of English are prized as language teachers as they know the language as their first language. If I was teaching English language in the FSU I think I would just throw the grammar books out and really get he student to spend time beefing up their English as much as possible first.

Mate, having seen how you write / spell sometimes, I hope you'd never take up teaching English .....  

I REALLY don't get how you can have been ( three ?) times to one FSU nation and keep posting like you 'know' stuff ....!

My Russian Wife, was a perfectionist and would rather not have spoken - than make a mistake - as described by Boethius...  I don't give a ... and try to speak Russian - folks either fall about laughing or understand enough...  but I'd be FAR better off studying the grammar of the language ...  I've just not got the time / inclination. 

I'm not after a job - as might be any partner - who you invite to the UK.  She spent nearly 3 years studying and it was a strain - as I ended up TRYING to explain English grammar  - when as a native speaker - I just knew the how - not the why.

[SANDRO43]

If you don't know vocabulary you can't communicate at all.

Yes. However...

Unlike other animals, humans use articulated languages, which means that they convey messages that are put together on the basis of some rules (grammatical, syntactical, etc.) in order to be understandable.

Consider 'unruly' utterances like baby talk, often consisting of single words - not unlike animal cries: they have to be interpreted by the listener in order to make some sense : hungry? hurt? uncomfortable? pleased?

Therefore there are varying levels of articulation - once they were even socially discriminating.

[ML]

I suppose my conclusion is that if you can learn to speak and understand English most quickly by immersion with other English speakers . . .

This is exactly why I have consistently here recommended against:

1) Western man learning the woman's native language.
2) Helping the woman find local friends who speak her native language.

When you do either of 1 or 2 . . . the result will be to slow immersion and slow her learning of English.

[msmob]

This is exactly why I have consistently here recommended against:

1) Western man learning the woman's native language.
2) Helping the woman find local friends who speak her native language.

When you do either of 1 or 2 . . . the result will be to slow immersion and slow her learning of English.

NOT my experience...

IF you have lived abroad in a nation where English isn't the first language - you appreciate your own nation's TV, occasionally - and speaking it

It hasn't stopped me learning the local lingos.

I had a Ru lang speaking kid living with Mama and that's prob why I was subjected to more Russian

They were provided RU lang TV via satellite and it certainly didn't stop Mama getting a UK degree within 3 years

[ML]

NOT my experience...

Hey . . . would you please quit disagreeing with me in multiple threads?

This behavior will become tedious when we come stay with you and let you sail us around on a boat that you rent.

[2tallbill]

Ok so as many of you will know I am paying for English lessons for my girl.

Before I spend time and effort giving my opinion/advice on this I have to ask,
have you totally made up your mind up already?

[Edit to add]
I'll answer this for the newbies.

We English speakers say our words in a certain order for it to make sense.
Most English sentences conform to the SVO word order. This means that
the Subject comes before the Verb, which comes before the Object.
Examples: I (S) bought (V) a new computer (O).

You say ......................."I bought a new computer."
You wouldn't say .......... "Computer new I bought."
Unless you were auditioning for the part of Yoda in Star Wars.   
 
We don't use double or triple negatives since it's forbidden but a
double or triple negative isn't uncommon in Russian. 

A girl learning English must learn both grammar and vocabulary at
the same time. The grammar is the hard part so that's what they
study with the teacher. They can learn and practice vocabulary by
themselves but can use help learning proper pronunciation, which
most English teachers in Russia don't know.

In the USA we would never learn Russian from a non native Russian
speaker, but in the FSU they ALL learn English from a non native. 

The English teachers in the FSU have such strong accents that a farmer
in North Dakota would barely be able to understand what a Russian girl
is saying, even if she said it properly in English.
 
When my wife (Angel Eyes) first visited the USA she would speak to my
cousins and they had no idea what she was saying, later on they became
attuned to her accent and they understood most of what she said.

Lastly, that's what a person who isn't an English teacher can teach
best is pronunciation. So if you have dreams of going to Russia,
Ukraine or Scotland (joke) to teach English you should realize
that's where your value lies unless you study up and learn all the
rules of grammar that you haven't studied since before puberty.

[msmob]

Hey . . . would you please quit disagreeing with me in multiple threads?

This behavior will become tedious when we come stay with you and let you sail us around on a boat that you rent.

We - Wifey, SC and I can discuss the wisdom of learning one's partner's lingo while you serve the wine in blissful ignorance 

[Trenchcoat]

My wife spent a year at CAL STATE SBO at about $4K per quarter.  She was enrolled in the English Language program.  They focused on the grammar and like for the most part.  After a year, I decided to not spend $4k per quarter on a non-credit program any longer.  What a racket.  She also was enrolled earlier in the ESL program locally which was nearly free, but a night or two a week would take a lifetime.

On the other hand, our daughter went into the first grade and spoke and comprehended English within 6 months.  No one would know she was not a native English speaker now at the end of the 2nd grade.  I asked the school prior to their arrival how my daughter could learn English and whether special classes were necessary.  I was told to not worry about it they use the immersion process.  In other words, they threw her into the class with the kids and I was assured she would learn English quickly.  In fact she did.

I suppose my conclusion is that if you can learn to speak and understand English most quickly by immersion with other English speakers, then after you have learned to communicate you can then learn the grammar and related skills later.  I suspect most immigrants would prefer to be able to communicate first and become a grammar expert later.

So how is your wife at speaking English now Cal? Has she immersed herself with people in the language locally? or still struggling?

[Trenchcoat]

OMG  Trench - you're 'at it again

I've been invited to be a guest speaker - at 3 different English schools - and you couldn't be more wrong ..From the Beatles to getting out and about and being a Google Guide - I see plenty of interaction and little blackboard or recital ..

Mate, having seen how you write / spell sometimes, I hope you'd never take up teaching English .....  

I REALLY don't get how you can have been ( three ?) times to one FSU nation and keep posting like you 'know' stuff ....!

My Russian Wife, was a perfectionist and would rather not have spoken - than make a mistake - as described by Boethius...  I don't give a ... and try to speak Russian - folks either fall about laughing or understand enough...  but I'd be FAR better off studying the grammar of the language ...  I've just not got the time / inclination. 

I'm not after a job - as might be any partner - who you invite to the UK.  She spent nearly 3 years studying and it was a strain - as I ended up TRYING to explain English grammar  - when as a native speaker - I just knew the how - not the why.

3 years and still not there with you pitching in also, does that not prove my point?

[calmissile]

So how is your wife at speaking English now Cal? Has she immersed herself with people in the language locally? or still struggling?

She is nowhere near fluent in English.  After a year at Cal State she worked very hard learning all the grammar and language rules of English.  She was at the top of her class.  Unfortunately, instead of getting a local job and immersing herself with English speaking folks, she spends the day talking to all the local Russian speaking friends on social media and her phone.

When she returns, we are going to have a conversation about changing her habits.  In our home, she speaks to our 8 year old daughter in Russian and speaks to me in English.  Our daughter speaks to me in English and her mother in Russian.   Initially, I thought this was a good idea as it allows our daughter to grow up remaining fluent in Russian while her school classmates all speak to her in English.  I am currently wrestling with a solution.

[Boethius]

3 years and still not there with you pitching in also, does that not prove my point?

He was referring to his ex wife, who didn't speak because she was a perfectionist.  But I believe she has fluency now.


The only way to learn a language to native fluency is to speak it, hope native speakers correct your errors, and not be embarrassed when they do.

[calmissile]

He was referring to his ex wife, who didn't speak because she was a perfectionist.  But I believe she has fluency now.


The only way to learn a language to native fluency is to speak it, hope native speakers correct your errors, and not be embarrassed when they do.

Seems logical to me. 

[Chicagoguy]

My wife really struggled with English. Truth is, she had never studied any language other than her own in Russian schools. She tried ESL and dropped it because she was angry that most students didn't know grammar rules of their native tongue. Also, she thought it was only fair that I should learn Russian. And I agreed It was a fair statement except even in Chicago the nearest school for this is the University of Chicago. Me at 70 competing against 20 year old very smart kids - plus I complained that I would probably never end up living in Russia. But she is still sometimes pushing for this.


What finally got her going was small incentives. She wanted to pass drivers test. And she succeeded. Then came Citizenship Test. She really attacked this and had success. 100% correct. Lastly was very few of my friends spoke Russian, especially my children and grandchildren. One daughter minored in Spanish and even studied in Spain but so many of Mexicans here speak a different dialect so she almost never uses it.


When in Europe I am always impressed with their abilities. But when I have congratulated them on this they say English is now the world language and the truth is we don't really NEED to be so adaptable . But when in my wife's native Russian city I have only found 1 American and he speaks no Russian in spite of living there. Now I think that is totally wrong and I would never do this.


Sometimes when I see a space shot of earth and I imagine if aliens saw us from a distance they would have trouble believing the mess we have here.

[tfcrew]

Her English will get better and yours will become worse 

[msmob]

3 years and still not there with you pitching in also, does that not prove my point?

I think you are trying to say, the fact that V and I  aren't together  has a bearing on the 'validity' [ edited to add: of ] my advising you on learning English and 'immersion' ... ?   

[Trenchcoat]

She is nowhere near fluent in English.  After a year at Cal State she worked very hard learning all the grammar and language rules of English.  She was at the top of her class.  Unfortunately, instead of getting a local job and immersing herself with English speaking folks, she spends the day talking to all the local Russian speaking friends on social media and her phone.

When she returns, we are going to have a conversation about changing her habits.  In our home, she speaks to our 8 year old daughter in Russian and speaks to me in English.  Our daughter speaks to me in English and her mother in Russian.   Initially, I thought this was a good idea as it allows our daughter to grow up remaining fluent in Russian while her school classmates all speak to her in English.  I am currently wrestling with a solution.

Smack her bottom Well I would have a word about her socializing more in English, maybe both go along to some social group together - go to dance sessions together, exercise class, book group, etc. somewhere where it is organised and she does not have to stick her neck out uncomfortably on her own trying to befriend English people.

I personally think that your daughter learning both English and Russian is a great situation to be in and I think a separate issue from her speaking to her Russian friends on social media. I would not ask her to stop her talking to her friends or even reduce it just try and get her along to some social group regularly where she can meet & talk to English people, thereafter she may pick up work more readily

[Chicagoguy]

I was surprised when ESL teachers told me if you go long enough without using your native tongue you can lose it. Don't know how often this happens though.

[SANDRO43]

I was surprised when ESL teachers told me if you go long enough without using your native tongue you can lose it. Don't know how often this happens though.

I think one can lose only parts of it, not all. It is well-known that prolonged exposure and use enhance mastery of a language, therefore the opposite must also apply.

[ML]

I remember back 30 or more years ago that a young man from a family we knew somewhat was jailed in East Berlin for over two years.  He had been trying to smuggle out an East German man in trunk of his car.

He knew very little of the German language when he went; but when he finally got back to USA he was fairly fluent in German having had to converse with guards in that language.

And, in speaking English, he had a very heavy German accent which didn't go away for several years.

[BdHvA]

When my wife is with me in America or The Netherlands on the street we speak in English so others understand us. I consider this a common courtesy to others. Her English is American high school level.

When in Kivy we speak on the street privately in English as not to create confusion. Frequently locals will approach me to ask a question and I have standard reply afterwards my wife takes over when we are together. With her son everything is in English all the time.

Her son is studying Chinese in Kivy and the classes are conducted in English.

[GQBlues]

...Her son is studying Chinese in Kivy and the classes are conducted in English.

Technically, since there's no such thing as 'Chinese' language (as there are numerous dialects however such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka), maybe you meant he's studying Chinese culture/history, etc...?

[SANDRO43]

Technically, since there's no such thing as 'Chinese' language (as there are numerous dialects however such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka), maybe you meant he's studying Chinese culture/history, etc...?

IINM, Mandarin is what is taught as Chinese abroad, since:

Mandarin is by far the largest of the seven or ten Chinese dialect groups, with 70 percent of Chinese speakers and a huge area stretching from Yunnan in the southwest to Xinjiang in the northwest and Heilongjiang in the northeast.

[southernX]

We have experience with both learning methods

My wife had learnt english at school in russia ,when she arrived in australia she went to college and learnt ESL , lots of emphasis on grammar , she put all her energies into learning it technically correct

She wanted this for her studies and career developement here , and it has been succesfull , her english vocabulary is good and its not often she will get stuck on understanding the usage of a word or its meaning

My stepson when he arrived knew approximatly 50 words of english at best ,we put him to a private tutor for 6 months , with little progress

At school he had the immersion and after about 1 year his english had noticably improved , his vocabulary including slang was good , after 3 years he won dux of his class in several subjects and a scholarship , at university he has also been in the upper levels of his studies

His english is far better than his mums overall in everday usage and understanding and confidence to communicate with others , she however does have better grammar

Either way will give success imo , but it will really depend on the attitude and endeavour of the person learning

At home they speak in both russian/ ukrainian as well as english , i can usually understand their conversation when its not in english , however the reading and writing of it totally escapes me usually

when a non english speaker starts to think in english , thats when you really start to see them bloom in a new enviroment ime

SX

[Anotherkiwi]

I was surprised when ESL teachers told me if you go long enough without using your native tongue you can lose it. Don't know how often this happens though.

The most prominent example I've heard of involved soldiers from the British Army who did not go home after the Armistice of 1918 because they had married (or were going to marry) local women.  By the time the Second World War came along, many of these men had supposedly totally lost their mother tongue because they had never returned home and had no need for English in their everyday life (much as my French, which was excellent and easily understood in France 30 years ago, is now VERY rusty).

[BdHvA]

Technically, since there's no such thing as 'Chinese' language (as there are numerous dialects however such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka), maybe you meant he's studying Chinese culture/history, etc...?

Nicolas is studying Mandarin, but the teacher from China is 1.) Trying to keep it fun. 2.) Focusing more on vocabulary 3.) Writing and reading the words.

He, the teacher, admitted he has never had as young a student as Nicolas. Most of the material available is geared to an older aged student.

[Trenchcoat]

We have experience with both learning methods

My wife had learnt english at school in russia ,when she arrived in australia she went to college and learnt ESL , lots of emphasis on grammar , she put all her energies into learning it technically correct

She wanted this for her studies and career developement here , and it has been succesfull , her english vocabulary is good and its not often she will get stuck on understanding the usage of a word or its meaning

My stepson when he arrived knew approximatly 50 words of english at best ,we put him to a private tutor for 6 months , with little progress

At school he had the immersion and after about 1 year his english had noticably improved , his vocabulary including slang was good , after 3 years he won dux of his class in several subjects and a scholarship , at university he has also been in the upper levels of his studies

His english is far better than his mums overall in everday usage and understanding and confidence to communicate with others , she however does have better grammar

Either way will give success imo , but it will really depend on the attitude and endeavour of the person learning

At home they speak in both russian/ ukrainian as well as english , i can usually understand their conversation when its not in english , however the reading and writing of it totally escapes me usually

when a non english speaker starts to think in english , thats when you really start to see them bloom in a new enviroment ime

SX

Well Southern it sounds like from what you have put and others here that the immersion technique seems to be the best way forward. Cal paying $4k a semester seems ludicrous to me, I'm paying about $/£10 a session for my girl to be taught by a non-native speaker locally so pretty cheap really. I get the impression it handy to start of with some sessions so there is a starting point for the immersion so they have a reference point to work from, but long term better to start immersing her in the language more & more, cheaper too  

[SANDRO43]

long term better to start immersing her in the language more & more, cheaper too

A suggestion: tell her to watch TV and listen to radio stations available that broadcast in English. Cheaper, but more fun, too .

[SANDRO43]

Writing and reading the words.

Painting, rather .

[Trenchcoat]

Funny I've found a similar thread on this but a decade old made back in 2007 lol. All about some guy paying $250 a month for language lessons for a girl in Kherson so appropriate for me. All the posters except our BillyB & 2tallbill are unknown to me, but are having the same sort of pmt style arguments with each other like we have on here today, lol. Billy & Bill do you remember this one?

Link: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5100.0

Don't think the guy ever really stated what the $250 a month consisted of, how many sessions any added cost etc unless he PM'd someone so I think it made it difficult for respondents to get to the bottom of whether he was being ripped off or not. My thought is that unless it was for a load of sessions a week he could well have been.

[msmob]

All the posters except our BillyB & 2tallbill are unknown to me

That only goes to demonstrate how inattentive you are ... Sadly,  some are no longer with us.  Jack's attitude to your 'expertise' on FSUW would have been interesting to observe.

[BdHvA]

Painting, rather .

True, I sat in on class and figured out how many strokes were needed for each 'letter'.

[Trenchcoat]

That only goes to demonstrate how inattentive you are ... Sadly,  some are no longer with us.  Jack's attitude to your 'expertise' on FSUW would have been interesting to observe.

My God Moby its a bum whipping all the way from you on here isn't it! 

[msmob]

My God Moby its a bum whipping all the way from you on here isn't it! 

What is seriously worrying is you persist in your 'jocularity' and yet keep on posting daft...   

I'm sure the likes of BC, Gator, Rvrwind, and last - but by no means, least - Lily  -  will forgive your powers of retention....

As has been said, before. No-one wants anyone to fail at this endeavour - but I just joined the ranks of too exasperated  to care!

[Trenchcoat]

What is seriously worrying is you persist in your 'jocularity' and yet keep on posting daft...   

I'm sure the likes of BC, Gator, Rvrwind, and last - but by no means, least - Lily  -  will forgive your powers of retention....

As has been said, before. No-one wants anyone to fail at this endeavour - but I just joined the ranks of too exasperated  to care!

Yet you still keep responding to my posts

Yes of course I remember Gator & Lily, Gator could be particularly helpful and Lily useful for her knowledge on FSU society. I just overlooked their comments there, the other two you mention I don't think I have come across them.

[msmob]

Yet you still keep responding to my posts

Is this  confirmation of trolling at work ? ..... As far as I am concerned you are no longer deserving of such attention.

Yes of course I remember Gator & Lily, Gator could be particularly helpful and Lily useful for her knowledge on FSU society. I just overlooked their comments there, the other two you mention I don't think I have come across them.

You tend to overlook lots of comments / advice.  Good luck and adieu.

[2tallbill]

Her English will get better and yours will become worse 

Ain't that the truth!

[Trenchcoat]

Is this  confirmation of trolling at work ? ..... As far as I am concerned you are no longer deserving of such attention.

You tend to overlook lots of comments / advice.  Good luck and adieu.

 
 

[Grumpy]

 American public is concerned with whether immigrants are attempting to assimilate but that Americans do not demand perfect assimilation—meaning that some variance is acceptable. There is even evidence that Americans receive immigrants with an accent more fondly than immigrants without an accent.3 Aside from its influence on natives' attitudes toward immigrants, learning English is correlated with higher educational attainment,4 earnings,5 social assimilation,6 and improved mental health.7
The largest determinant of English language acquisition among immigrants is their age at entry, because there is a critical period in human development when the mind is best able to acquire new languages.8 Even if humans are equally able to learn a language at any age, younger immigrants would still have a greater incentive to learn.9 A 10-year-old immigrant can, all else constant, reasonably expect to use English longer than an 80-year-old immigrant, thus justifying the investment of time and energy to become fluent. This should be particularly pronounced among immigrants who seek to permanently reside in the United States, as proxied by naturalization and marriage with native-born Americans.
English language acquisition among immigrants in the 1980–2010 period is higher than in the 1900–1930 period. Without controls and by just comparing the two cohorts, modern immigrants have better English language skills than those of the past. The results are the same whether their age of arrival differs, whether they are married to native-born Americans or immigrants, or if they come from different regions of the world. Learning English is an important aspect of becoming an American. Whatever complaints American voters have about current immigrants, they typically have English language skills greater than our immigrant ancestors.

http://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigrants-learn-english-immigrants-language

I thought it was interesting that current immigrants are learning English faster than those a century ago.