UKRAINE 2014 --What Is It Like Today?

[JayH]

UKRAINE   2014  -- What is it like today?


Often here on the forum very negative comments are made about Ukraine and Ukrainians --most often it seems to be from people who have no first hand knowledge of Ukraine and have never been there at all --or were there so long ago as to have little idea of current day Ukraine.
The current crisis is being covered in numerous threads and I do not propose to repeat that coverage here-- but-- what is relevant is that there is so much disinformation( propaganda) emanating from Russia and many silly "supporters" who propagate that nonsense I thought it appropriate that some CURRENT real information should appear on the forum.

I hope others will contribute here to give newcomers( and the ignorant)  a better more complete idea of what it is really like in Ukraine.

Starting with the cities of reasonable size-- the history and buildings are covered in many places on the forum- so I will bypass that at this time. Today--Ukraine does not seem so different to many other parts of Europe-- more Spain/Italy than Germany.

Despite appalling low wages and high unemployment and under employment Ukrainians  have a style about them. The town planners of different eras have given the cities great layouts with wide streets and many parks and gardens. Unfortunately many are not as well maintained  as they should be-- but--the people working there are trying hard to maintain. and improve.The many rivers provide great parks and recreational areas that are often central in cities.

The many shopping centres that have sprung up in more recent years  are the equal of any in the west  ( in Kiev with upmarket western prices to match !! ) Supermarkets are very similar also-- only noticeable difference is that frozen food sections are not as vast.

My other big observation--the population seems younger than you would see in western cities.The average age of people on the streets looks younger-- (take note mob'ers with distorted ideas) .

In places Ukraine can be like a 3rd World country-- but many visitors will never see that.At the other end--there is money about-- so not so different to other parts of the western world.

[JayH]

  A thread I recommend-- not only for general background but it covers  a lot of geography too.  Somewhere here there is a discussion about relative standard if living -needless to say I can't find it when I want to use it here!!
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15509.0


Many(most?) Ukrainians live in apartment blocks built in the Soviet era -these can be inner city or some considerable distance from city centre. Smaller cities-- I would describe as satellite suburbs can be  called villages -I am sure someone will elaborate on distinctions.
Often these apartment blocks appear unmaintained -and the public areas may have had minimal maintenance .
The traditional layout is covered by Mende on forum.My observation is this-- regardless of the outside first impression- these apartments can be as good  and modern as any in the west. Home renovation is in full swing in Ukraine and it is common to see people carry building materials in and on cars !! On buses and on foot!!  more recently I commented that I have seen large numbers of big screen TV's being lugged home !

[lordtiberius]

There is still a lot of corruption.  Although I do like the trashing of politicians.

[Drew]

UKRAINE   2014  -- What is it like today?
Unfortunately many are not as well maintained  as they should be-- but--the people working there are trying hard to maintain and improve.

I would disagree.  The Ukrainian and Russian people are pretty slobbish when it comes to respecting outdoor public places.  Most are littered daily with bottles and other trash merely tossed on the ground and sidewalks.

[JayH]

I would disagree.  The Ukrainian and Russian people are pretty slobbish when it comes to respecting outdoor public places.  Most are littered daily with bottles and other trash merely tossed on the ground and sidewalks.

Drew my comments were related to the maintenance of parks and gardens in Ukraine -- so not Russia at all. To explain the quoted words further-- the people working in parks and gardens are doing their best--with what they have to work with. Many have had no money,many employees not paid at all ,many parks and gardens have relied on donations to stay afloat. That applies to zoo's also.
          As for public tidiness-- I wrote earlier that  the streets are remarkably rubbish free and I often witnessed people picking up other peoples rubbish or stray rubbish to bin it. So in general terms--I would stand by my comments.

[JayH]

There is still a lot of corruption.  Although I do like the trashing of politicians.

LT--the historic corruption is in the sights of the new government.Peoples expectations are that they will change that impediment to change. Joining the west and adopting decent laws in many areas can only help.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poroshenko-hopes-parliament-will-adopt-anti-corruption-bills-next-week-366579.html

I started thread to try and give those a better idea on what Ukraine is really like today and what to expect there. There has been so much written on the negatives I thought it needs to be balanced with some realities-- that I see as positives.

There are quite a few others who have been there in the last year who will have impressions -- and in the absence of most to resist not writing TR's I was hoping to see some anecdotes of  peoples experiences  that can help paint a picture .

[LiveFromUkraine]

Still waiting on what is different here than, say, 4 or so years ago.  So far nothing much sounds different besides a few more buildings have been built.  Hardly thread worthy so far.  Sadly, the copy and paste posts from Yahoo were more "informative".


Jay, you finally find a woman yet after all your trips?

[Muzh]

I would disagree. The Ukrainian and Russian people are pretty slobbish when it comes to respecting outdoor public places.  Most are littered daily with bottles and other trash merely tossed on the ground and sidewalks.

As compared to who? The Americans?


Bwa ha ha ha

[tfcrew]

I would disagree.  The Ukrainian and Russian people are pretty slobbish when it comes to respecting outdoor public places.  Most are littered daily with bottles and other trash merely tossed on the ground and sidewalks.

You mean like L.A., Detroit, Brooklyn?

Do a Google map search, drop the street view guy into Odessa and post the trashy neighborhoods.

[JayH]

Still waiting on what is different here than, say, 4 or so years ago.  So far nothing much sounds different besides a few more buildings have been built.  Hardly thread worthy so far.  Sadly, the copy and paste posts from Yahoo were more "informative".


Jay, you finally find a woman yet after all your trips?

When were you last there? Where and for how long?
Let's get that out of the way first-- let all of us understand the currency of what you have to say.
Please feel free to ignore the thread- it will not cost me any sleep worrying if you are reading it. Your comment about Yahoo has been challenged previously-- when you reply to that and show me exactly where I am supposedly used it-maybe then I could take you "differently".

The point of the thread is to try and create some positive discussion and current information on Ukraine--not waste more forum space on the negative carpers.

As for my personal situation-- decided long ago not to get into current specifics. Your comment only shows what you don't know.

[calmissile]

I would disagree.  The Ukrainian and Russian people are pretty slobbish when it comes to respecting outdoor public places.  Most are littered daily with bottles and other trash merely tossed on the ground and sidewalks.

From what I have seen it's a mixed bag.  Some  towns/cities are quite clean and others are trashy.  Not sure why the differences.  As of a few  months ago, I was impressed with how clean Cherkassy (Park), and the college town of Berdyansk are.  Kiev seemed to be rather cluttered with trash but then there seemed to be a lot more homeless and drunks there.

Clearly, the US doesn't have anything to brag about but this wasn't a comparison question.     

[LiveFromUkraine]

When were you last there? Where and for how long?
Let's get that out of the way first-- let all of us understand the currency of what you have to say.
Please feel free to ignore the thread- it will not cost me any sleep worrying if you are reading it. Your comment about Yahoo has been challenged previously-- when you reply to that and show me exactly where I am supposedly used it-maybe then I could take you "differently".

The point of the thread is to try and create some positive discussion and current information on Ukraine--not waste more forum space on the negative carpers.

As for my personal situation-- decided long ago not to get into current specifics. Your comment only shows what you don't know.

No, no no, Jay...  You are suppose to be teaching us the differences.  This thread was about teaching the newbies and ignorant.   


All you said was there was big buildings built, younger people on the street and less trash.  haha


I'm awaiting on you teaching the misinformed.  You designated yourself as a teacher so teach.  Ah, you want my personal specifics yet won't say your specifics.   Well, your comments show that you don't really know much besides how to copy and paste.

[JayH]

No, no no, Jay...  You are suppose to be teaching us the differences.  This thread was about teaching the newbies and ignorant.   

Why not say you have not been there in a decade (whenever it was)?No big deal in that or are you afraid that it will show everyone why you are in the ignorant category you named above?
As I said earlier-- please feel free to ignore thread and stop trolling.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Why not say you have not been there in a decade (whenever it was)?No big deal in that or are you afraid that it will show everyone why you are in the ignorant category you named above?
As I said earlier-- please feel free to ignore thread and stop trolling.

Why not say your specifics?  No big deal unless you're afraid you will be caught out in a lie.  Dude, I lived in Ukraine.  I wasn't there for a few months and left so I am eager to learn from some so called experts such as yourself.


Please continue...  Was the grass greener than say 5 years ago?  I have my pen and paper ready for notes on your brilliant insights. 


Soviet style buildings that were there for a long time.  Check.
Young people walking around. Check
Trash on streets being picked up.  Check

[LAman]

When were you last there? Where and for how long?
Let's get that out of the way first-- let all of us understand the currency of what you have to say.
Please feel free to ignore the thread- it will not cost me any sleep worrying if you are reading it. Your comment about Yahoo has been challenged previously-- when you reply to that and show me exactly where I am supposedly used it-maybe then I could take you "differently".

The point of the thread is to try and create some positive discussion and current information on Ukraine--not waste more forum space on the negative carpers.

As for my personal situation-- decided long ago not to get into current specifics. Your comment only shows what you don't know.

If you don't mind, I'll agree with LFU. What is point of this thread? Are you Jay, trying to prop up current situation in Ukraine? It is SAME, in my eyes. Yes, some newer building, some newer trains, lower apt prices across board( except for Kharkiv). Still see some corruption. Still see many stores kept clean by workers, still see plenty of restaurants packed. See some with $$$, still see the poor, still see the hustlers..... Other than the tributes to the dead, maiden looks same.....

[JayH]

Thankyou for your "contribution".

[fathertime]

UKRAINE   2014  -- What is it like today?


Often here on the forum very negative comments are made about Ukraine and Ukrainians --most often it seems to be from people who have no first hand knowledge of Ukraine and have never been there at all --or were there so long ago as to have little idea of current day Ukraine.
The current crisis is being covered in numerous threads and I do not propose to repeat that coverage here-- but-- what is relevant is that there is so much disinformation( propaganda) emanating from Russia and many silly "supporters" who propagate that nonsense I thought it appropriate that some CURRENT real information should appear on the forum.

I hope others will contribute here to give newcomers( and the ignorant)  a better more complete idea of what it is really like in Ukraine.

Starting with the cities of reasonable size-- the history and buildings are covered in many places on the forum- so I will bypass that at this time. Today--Ukraine does not seem so different to many other parts of Europe-- more Spain/Italy than Germany.

Despite appalling low wages and high unemployment and under employment Ukrainians  have a style about them. The town planners of different eras have given the cities great layouts with wide streets and many parks and gardens. Unfortunately many are not as well maintained  as they should be-- but--the people working there are trying hard to maintain. and improve.The many rivers provide great parks and recreational areas that are often central in cities.

The many shopping centres that have sprung up in more recent years  are the equal of any in the west  ( in Kiev with upmarket western prices to match !! ) Supermarkets are very similar also-- only noticeable difference is that frozen food sections are not as vast.

My other big observation--the population seems younger than you would see in western cities.The average age of people on the streets looks younger-- (take note mob'ers with distorted ideas) .

In places Ukraine can be like a 3rd World country-- but many visitors will never see that.At the other end--there is money about-- so not so different to other parts of the western world.

This whole post looks like a giant TRAVEL BROCHURE for Ukraine!   It is great that you like Ukraine, but in one post you are exclaiming  how you are going to provide "Real Information" then a few posts later you solemnly whine:   "There has been so much written on the negatives I thought it needs to be balanced with some realities-- that I see as positives".   


So  the truth is you are not looking to inform anyone...you are looking to propagandize and give a slanted opinion.  You are entitled to express what you say you see as positives, but that is a lot different than acting like you are going to 'educate the ignorant and new travelers'    You really didn't even have much to say. 


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

Yeah, pointing out appallingly low wages, high unemployment and underemployment, some third world conditions, and corruption are all positives.

[lordtiberius]

LT--the historic corruption is in the sights of the new government.Peoples expectations are that they will change that impediment to change. Joining the west and adopting decent laws in many areas can only help.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poroshenko-hopes-parliament-will-adopt-anti-corruption-bills-next-week-366579.html

I started thread to try and give those a better idea on what Ukraine is really like today and what to expect there. There has been so much written on the negatives I thought it needs to be balanced with some realities-- that I see as positives.

There are quite a few others who have been there in the last year who will have impressions -- and in the absence of most to resist not writing TR's I was hoping to see some anecdotes of  peoples experiences  that can help paint a picture .

I met a lot of nice people there.

[lonedrake]

I hope others will contribute here to give newcomers( and the ignorant)  a better more complete idea of what it is really like in Ukraine.

 I have been to Ukraine 8 times in the last two years. Three times in 2014 and I have tickets to go again later this month.

 One story that I always tell others is about my last flight. Not sure if it good to tell as I am sure it causes concern. Anyways, My flight left Paris around 10am(or 9). MH17 left Amsterdam around the same time. Our flight paths were similar until ,of coarse, I landed in Kiev.

 On that trip we drove down to Odessa. My wife wanted some time on the beach. It was during their peak busy season yet we were able to drive down there and just get a motel. It was a 12 room motel and we were the only ones staying there the first day. This was on a Friday. I think a couple rooms were booked the last day we were there. So I would say that the economy in Odessa is suffering.

 I have never had any problems in Ukraine due to being an American. I don't see it and I don't really worry about it.

 I did get pulled over again on the way to Odessa. I was not paying attention to the speed limit and they got me doing 100 in a 50 zone. My wife pulled out her phone and started videotaping. She and the officer has a heated debate. He ended up just letting us go.

One thing that has changed is that the police are more concerned about getting caught looking for bribes. Not to concerned though as my wife pointed out all of the harvest trucks getting pulled over and paying their "fine"

As far as what it is like in Ukraine from the past? I have no idea. To me everything seems normal...just a little different. In my wifes area there is never much trash around. People take pride in their yards,gardens and houses. Lots of fresh blue paint. No idea why they love blue so much?

 I know some people are into the culture and such, but I am not that interested in all that stuff. I go there to see my wife and the people she cares about.

 

[Drew]

No idea why they love blue so much?

Are you familiar with the national colors of Ukraine?

[lordtiberius]

I renewed my passport for a trip planned in November.  I haven't gotten it yet.  My experiences mirror lonedrake's somewhat but I care about these people.  I like them.

JayH was disappointed with my initial impressions but I like Lviv the best.

[Slumba]

I remember asking about "minced garlic" since I didn't need much and it keeps well if you refrigerate it. 

To be told quite sternly, that no store would ever have it - they prepare that from scratch as it is needed!  One girl I know doesn't even buy jam or jelly - it is made at home by herself or her mom.

Onions are 2 or 3 UAH per kilo - that is, 8 US cents a pound at current conversion rates.  Potatoes and other staples also quite inexpensive.  Meat and cheese, as much or more as you would pay in the USA.

I was told by a native in a group of people studying English, that typical Kiev salaries are 2000 to 3000 UAH per month.

[JayH]

One of the very noticeable changes over the last 5 years is the updating of cars & trucks. legislation that prevented(or at least slowed down) the importing of older cars has seen  many new car showrooms being built.  All the major manufacturers plus Korean ,Chinese brands seem to be chasing the market. In every city I have seen there are many new showrooms built in the last few years-plus more being built.

In addition-- in what seems only a relatively short time the trucks( lorries) seem to have become a lot newer> The bigger the city-- the newer the average age of vehicles seem to be.

Away from the cities you still see older cars and trucks -but generalising they seem to be more confined to their local areas.Many ex military trucks you still see  transporting grain etc.

Along with the  changes in the vehicles -I have also seen a reduction of the extreme crazy driving ( that may also have something to do with the current climate cutting down a few would be "kings" !!)  Even courteous acts seem to be common place-more akin to driving in other parts of the EU -- and not ridiculous russian selfish!!

The road conditions in places are good ( eg around Kiev itself) -- that is in sharp contrast to often close to impassable dangerous surfaces on some roads between major cities. Even around major cities the  roads require extreme car to avoid damaging tyres,wheels,suspension and the car itself !! In wet conditions at night-- it can be extremely hard work driving.If you can be  a 110% involved driver-no problem-- if you are average joe painful ( ) don't bother-you will get yourself in a lot of trouble !!.

Under the new direction & Government the Police are not the nightmare they were previously to deal with-now acting like Police in civilised countries and not looking to subsidise their ridiculously low pay.On the Police generally-- it must be an incredibly difficult time for them- and from what I have seen they are doing ok job. Generally helpful and curious about "tourists " !! As I said earlier-- about like Police anywhere.

[JayH]

 I know some people are into the culture and such, but I am not that interested in all that stuff. I go there to see my wife and the people she cares about.

LD-- I think when you start seeing things as "normal" you have become adjusted to normal for Ukraine!! You would probably be surprised how much you have learnt!
        I started writing this thread to update people generally-- and I am struggling to explain how it is different! I have to sit and think about it.