Whether to seek a woman with a child

[XMan]

This may or may not be beneficial to those who are starting out.  But I will provide some perspective for those who are inclined to read it.

I've been around the block a few times.  I stopped counting after some early trips to Russia and a dozen trips to multiple cities in Ukraine.  I met more women than I can even remember.  But I am not a sex tourist by any stretch of the imagination.  Actually, it is quite the opposite.  It would be challenging to find someone who was more serious and respectful about this pursuit.  But, finding the right woman has not exactly been an easy process.  For those who struck gold the first or second time out, I congratulate you.  But it certainly does not happen for everyone. 

In the early stages I was undecided about writing a woman with a child.  Realistically, if one does so one is taking on additional responsibility right out of the gate.  It also may not be so easy to determine the temperament of a child, and whether one wishes to believe it or not, it can seriously impact the relationship, regardless of the age of the child.  It also tacks on an additional financial burden, both up front and for the long-term.  Discipline may be an issue, as it may take quite some time for a woman to become comfortable with you being involved or handing out discipline.

Of course, there are positives.  Though this is a generalization, and therefore there are caveats, a woman with a child may be more discerning, more interested in character than flash, more interested in a relationship than partying, etc.  (Then again, if you are looking for a party girl, that may not matter to you.  But if you are, it's much less expensive to stay at home, though perhaps not as exotic.) 

Eventually I decided to consider both women with and without children, though I think I began leaning toward the former rather than the latter.  I became enamored with the idea of family, and though I wasn't sure I would have a child of my own, I felt I was ready, whether the child was genetically mine or not.

All well and good. 

But, for those considering it, be acutely aware of custody issues early on, before you become deeply involved and attached. 

Now, I am certain on this board there are men who had no issues, the ex-husband was no problem, and everything was roses and honey.  Once again, my congratulations to those gentlemen.  I am envious. 

Though I am sure the above is true, I can say with authority that the polar opposite is also true.  There are ex-husbands who have an axe to grind that is so large they can barely lift it with both hands.  In some cases they will not simply cut off their own noses to spite their respective faces, they will tear off one of their own limbs just to bait a shark while you are swimming.

I really have no desire to delve into my own story.  But I can summarize it by saying that I thought things were resolved, they are not, things are back in court, and most likely the timeline for her to leave the country and come to the USA will expire prior to custody being settled.  Yes, I have contacted some folks (I was recently referred to a state department contact) to see what options there are.  I do not believe an extension is possible, from what I have read. 

In the end, my scenario doesn't really matter.  At least not to you.

What matters is this:  my gut reaction is to tell you to stay the hell away from any woman with a child.  But you could very well miss out on finding the relationship you have always dreamed of if you do that.  Instead I will say that before you become entangled, find out where things are, and do it as soon as is realistically possible.  If a woman does not have sole custody, frankly, I would get the $U@! out pronto.  Unless you are a masochist, of course, and then I say full speed ahead and enjoy the pain and frustration and other goodies. 

Cheers.

[mendeleyev]

Xman, I appreciate the seriousness with which you approach this adventure.

I think that a guy should approach the child issue just like he would at home. In many ways this is somewhat more vexing as a child is not just moving across town or across state or provinces, but to a whole new country and in reality we're cutting off most and sometimes all future contact between the child and one of the parents.

Some will argue that the guy is a jerk and not interested. In some cases that is true although many who claim that are relying only on one side of the story without ever meeting the estranged ex husband and father.

Given that there are often substantial differences in child rearing philosophies, some marriages are torpedoed when the couple can't overcome those challenges.

That doesn't mean that I'm arguing against dating a lady with children and in fact I'd argue that a widow is often a better catch than a divorced gal because in her experience the man was "lost" and not tossed overboard and thus the approach to remarriage may be very different.

Good topic.

[southernX]

[quoteThat doesn't mean that I'm arguing against dating a lady with children and in fact I'd argue that a widow is often a better catch than a divorced gal because in her experience the man was "lost" and not tossed overboard and thus the approach to remarriage may be very different.

][/quote]

mendy ,. great point above ,

this is my situation ,
xman , id guess im pretty lucky , found a good caring soft committed lady pretty quickly in my search , sifted through about a 100 , with and without kids ,

kids wherent really a factor  though so much as i had kids already , but my stepchild is a great kid , no problems at all fitted in easily , we get on well
so im doubly lucky 

my wife was widowed ,so when they moved to me , it was easier than most , no other parent/ gaurdian issues at all

min family left behind as well , so no big issues with missing family , homesickness , guilt over parents etc , min homeland pull if you like

one other point is if you do fall in love with a lady who has achild , the two of them together share the relocation , this i believe helps in a positive way to both of them and you , together they are not as isolated in their new country , mum can also see the potential for her child , which also gives her a strong focus , rather than just herself

they can share their  language , experiences etc ,

you , the hubby , can also get some small amounts of time out , to relax etc, when they have time together , 
as the first two years or so in the new country do put a huge burden on the husband as well  , which is not often thought about

so its a win /win ime

REALITY for each if us is totally different in life  , so there are no hard or fast rules, imho
each of us must decide what he can handle ,what he wants , before he enters the ring ,  then pursue it to the best of your abilitys , 

SX

[Slumba]

The only girl who flaked on meeting me, who had been in touch before my trip, was a single mom.

So remember that some women may be single moms due to their own behavior.

[ML]

X-Man, sorry to hear of the latest woes for you.

Just as a side issue (not applicable to Ukraine situation, at least not right now). . . could it be that the latest Russian block put on adoptions have any future impact on a Russian woman getting her child out of Russia in a marriage to a WM?

I know it is not quite the same thing . . . but seems like it could be looked at by any relevant Russian authorities in the same light; and more roadblocks put up.

Another consideration for men looking.

[Boethius]

The only girl who flaked on meeting me, who had been in touch before my trip, was a single mom.

So remember that some women may be single moms due to their own behavior.

A single mother often has no one to rely on.  So, if her babysitter cancels, or her child is sick, she is stuck.  You, as a stranger, are not her priority.


XMan, I am sorry for how this has unfolded for you, but, I am also with mendy on this one.  There are two sides to every story.  Was the father in the child's life at all?  If he was, I doubt it is vindictiveness that is motivating his decision.  If he was not, then he likely has some sort of addiction, and there's a good chance his cooperation could be purchased.

[tfcrew]

I fail to understand the subject.
Is it 'to seek an instant family'?

Best to stick with the least baggage possible because it's a long way to travel.
My wife's son was grown when I met her. He came over on his own visa.

Karl

[XMan]

A single mother often has no one to rely on.  So, if her babysitter cancels, or her child is sick, she is stuck.  You, as a stranger, are not her priority.

XMan, I am sorry for how this has unfolded for you, but, I am also with mendy on this one.  There are two sides to every story.  Was the father in the child's life at all?  If he was, I doubt it is vindictiveness that is motivating his decision.  If he was not, then he likely has some sort of addiction, and there's a good chance his cooperation could be purchased.

Excellent question.
Really did not want to delve into specifics, but it may help if I point out just how well paved the streets of Bitter Town are.
He has not seen the child in 5 years.  That's been documented with the equivalent of affidavits from friends, neighbors, etc. 
To my knowledge, no substance abuse issues.  He is working elsewhere in Ukraine, is remarried, has other children, yet is still back in the ring fighting this out.  Chances of a buy out (i.e. bribe) are about as close to zero as one can imagine. 
Do I know exactly how things ended? 
No.  I wasn't there, of course.  And I only have one side of the very unpleasant story. 
But there is a large reservoir of anger.  That much is clear.   
I am uncertain if it is bad luck, poor judgment on my part, being overly optimistic (which is hard to imagine knowing my own cynical nature), karmic vengeance for some past transgression I do not recall, or something else altogether that brought me to this point.  But it is disheartening in a way that is difficult to adequately express.  I look back to when I seriously considered throwing in the towel altogether three years ago, and I wonder why I did not.  It certainly wasn't due to naiveté.  Stupidity, perhaps.  Though I cannot rule out insanity.  After all, doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results is, shall we say, bat guano crazy. 
 

[Boethius]

Excellent question.
Really did not want to delve into specifics, but it may help if I point out just how well paved the streets of Bitter Town are.
He has not seen the child in 5 years.  That's been documented with the equivalent of affidavits from friends, neighbors, etc. 
To my knowledge, no substance abuse issues.  He is working elsewhere in Ukraine, is remarried, has other children, yet is still back in the ring fighting this out.  Chances of a buy out (i.e. bribe) are about as close to zero as one can imagine. 
Do I know exactly how things ended? 
No.  I wasn't there, of course.  And I only have one side of the very unpleasant story. 
But there is a large reservoir of anger.  That much is clear.   
I am uncertain if it is bad luck, poor judgment on my part, being overly optimistic (which is hard to imagine knowing my own cynical nature), karmic vengeance for some past transgression I do not recall, or something else altogether that brought me to this point.  But it is disheartening in a way that is difficult to adequately express.  I look back to when I seriously considered throwing in the towel altogether three years ago, and I wonder why I did not.  It certainly wasn't due to naiveté.  Stupidity, perhaps.  Though I cannot rule out insanity.  After all, doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results is, shall we say, bat guano crazy.

In your shoes, I would probably hire an interpreter (male would be better, I think), grab a bottle of vodka, and go meet him.  I'd probably have his current wife in the meeting as well, to influence him.  I'd suggest that as he has no relationship with the child, termination of his parental rights is inevitable.  He has a lovely new woman, a new family, and you will ensure his other child has a good life.  You will even ensure the child writes and visits him, if he wishes.  Then offer him $500 (I'd put some cash in reserve to go a little higher).  $500 is the average Ukrainian monthly wage, though there are plenty of people making far less than that.


I suspect if his new wife is in the room, the deal will be done.  I gather on principle, you're against this, but this is probably a less expensive solution than other alternatives.

[JayH]

XMan-very sorry to hear of your problems. I have had some experience with Ukraine legal system and looked at this issue in my own circumstances. I am actually trained lawyer myself ( non practising in any jurisdiction)  and  a few observations-- there are lawyers and lawyers-- no different in Ukraine . I eventually found a guy who spoke the same language( my 6 words of Russian were more than he had in English !!)-- but his very beautiful 183 cm ( 6') assistant spoke perfect english and interpreted and even explained my slang to him.He was always happy to explain the strategy and acknowledge suggestions of "is this a possibility"? type questions. He had the total approach that I immediately related to. My Ukrainian girlfriend  was often in shock at what was under discussion and how we could achieve what we wanted.
  If you have the resources my strong advice is to get involved-- regardless of how savvy your girl-- none of this is easy  and is extremely stressfull in the frontline.I am interested in what city you are dealing with(pm me if you wish to)
  The timing of all this is awkward that is for sure and I can feel your pain. Deal with each issue in it's time frame as best you can.

[JayH]

In your shoes, I would probably hire an interpreter (male would be better, I think), grab a bottle of vodka, and go meet him.  I'd probably have his current wife in the meeting as well, to influence him.  I'd suggest that as he has no relationship with the child, termination of his parental rights is inevitable.  He has a lovely new woman, a new family, and you will ensure his other child has a good life.  You will even ensure the child writes and visits him, if he wishes.  Then offer him $500 (I'd put some cash in reserve to go a little higher).  $500 is the average Ukrainian monthly wage, though there are plenty of people making far less than that.


I suspect if his new wife is in the room, the deal will be done.  I gather on principle, you're against this, but this is probably a less expensive solution than other alternatives.

  Bo you are a lot nicer person than I am!!You are still believing in the "nice" part of this guy. $500 might get a result if he is drunk or out of his mind!!  To go that route requires a co-ordinated effort  to "condition" his responses . The second that $ amount is raised it will see an escalation of requirements and a a hardening of his attitude to extract the  maximum possible.  Paying may well be the cheapest way-- but if I was offering I would need to be 100% sure of getting a result in that time frame.Whoever is doing the offering--needs a very clear idea of what they are trying to achieve.
  As an aside--   2 weeks ago an Australian charged with drug dealing in Malaysia( death penalty) was cleared by the court( after spending considerable time in jail waiting for trial) -- that was a Thursday-- he spent the next few days celebrating in Malaysia-- only to be re-arrested on new charges on the Monday when about to board a flight to Australia. If his lawyers or  he had 1/2 a brain he would have gone to Singapore( only a few hours away even by road )on the Thursday he was released . The point of relevence here is that if release for child is signed to travel( whether permanent of temporary) -- do not then spend a month thinking it is all finished.
 

[XMan]

She doesn't want to alert him to the fact she is leaving the country, thinking it will go from very bad to impossible. 
To put it simply, I don't know.

[BC]

in general I would say that the difficulties 'importing' a wife (yes I know a bad term) is 'x'
the difficulties adding a child make it 'x²'

in other words, the difficulties involved is exponential and not multiple.

a challenge not to be underestimated.

fwiw based on my experience.

[JayH]

Dealing with the original title question I have a few observations(opinions that are not seeking to be a total statement of my attitude!!)
It varies as always depending on age of girl and child.One thing I have noticed is that girls with children tend to be more responsible and settled in life routine( yes--I know it is necessity!!)  It is a reason that I think younger age can be considered-- in the end--age is about maturity--not years.  It was the reason I originally changed my age attitude to include younger women- hence my comments above.
I know from forum chat discussion on the "children" topic that some guys  have children very low on the scale of importance-- perhaps to not wanting  a child,children etc in the relationship. That choice should be respected by others on forum-- everyone has their reasons for the conclusions they reach.In some cases-- guys already have children and can do without more complications in life--they may feel they are past that point in life-- all responsible thinking.
For me -- I would be happy to include children and accept all the responsibilities that goes with them  .
The op here refers to some of the problems potentially to come with children--there is no doubt that issue could be there for many-- so guys need a high degree of intent to get thru the issues that arise.

[fathertime]

Well XMan if it were me I'd want to resolve the issue one way or another rather quickly....So I thought Botheuis' idea seemed reasonable...maybe if you talk to the guy and make an offer of cash if need be he might decide to let the child he never sees go...if you determine that it is never going to happen after the meeting, then you can take that option off the table and determine where you want to go with this relationship...
One last thing, maybe your lady, is overstating his reluctance because of her own fears...it seems to me you should get to the bottom of this.


Fathertime! 

[jone]

I actually had a friend who tried to coerce a man into giving up parental rights.   The man had been an absentee parent and the mother of their child thought him disinterested.  So, armed with a thousand dollars provided by the future husband she offered to buy the pen on paper signature allowing their young daughter to leave the country. 

The man counter offered by saying that he would rather have the daughter living with him than the thousand dollars.  This was not a rational response as the man had never been a father figure and would have had no idea as to how to care for a young daughter.  Nor could he provide living accommodations for her.

The man was simply insidiously jealous.  He wanted to thwart her happiness at any cost.... the cost of his daughter's happiness, his own remuneration, anything .... even though he had no relationship with the woman.

[LAman]

Jone, you actually jogged my memory. A few years back a girl went to court to obtain back child support from an absentee father when he wouldn't sign papers for the son to leave Ukraine. She got the judgment in her favor and went after some money the guy had. The absentee's gf wasn't very happy, he relented, signing paperwork when he was assured he did not have to pay back child support. As I remember, there was fees for lawyer , court and of course some ended up with the 'judge'.

[GQBlues]

A wise man ( Larry, the cable guy ) was once quoted as saying...


"...If you jump into the pool, best be prepared to get wet..."

Part of the problem with this whole thing is the western men who blazed the trail before that made 'doling' out the deadbeat Dad $$$ in exchange for his ink fashionable. Now every Sasha, Dick and Sergei plays the part along the pay line.

[JayH]

Part of the problem with this whole thing is the western men who blazed the trail before that made 'doling' out the deadbeat Dad $$$ in exchange for his ink fashionable. Now every Sasha, Dick and Sergei plays the part along the pay line.

The stories of  a potential  $  success by deadbeat dad's is well known in FSU -- and the ask is way more than $500.

[ML]

Part of the problem with this whole thing is the western men who blazed the trail before that made 'doling' out the deadbeat Dad $$$ in exchange for his ink fashionable.

This is only one example of the problem that past and current WM are causing for other current and future WM with their spending.

As we see in other threads . . . man is viewed (by FSUW and other men here) as cheap bas. . . if he won't spend 5X for flowers, restaurants, etc.

[Boethius]

Putting aside X-Man's situation, on which I am not commenting, it's not always about money.  In Ukrainian society, there is a bias toward children being with their mother.  Children who are not in the care of their mother are often pitied.  In Soviet times, mothers were always given custody of children, and to prove a mother unfit was very difficult.  That is changing now, as is custody, but the old mentality still exists.  So, a father may not see his child, his ex may make it difficult for him to access his child (as was the case in the West even twenty years ago), but, that doesn't mean he does not love his child.

In addition, there is still a law on the books in Ukraine that a child is required to support an indigent parent.  I know of a case where a mother terminated a father's parental rights just as her sons were on the cusp of adulthood, solely because she did not want her sons to be responsible for her good for nothing ex.  He had no contact with the boys since their divorce, yet opposed the application, even though he was not doing it out of spite.  He truly believed that, notwithstanding his absence in their lives, he was their father, and deserved that status.

[GQBlues]

Boethius-
 
That may well be the case in some of these situations but it quickly loses air with me when the parties come to a 'price' that'll trump whatever reasoning you stated.
 
I am resigned to believe any parent would only want the very best opportunity for their kids. Given an opportunity, I would like to think any parent (father) shouldn't have to be 'paid' to ensure his child/ren gets this opportunity. That's the part I will never understand how cases like these are, or can be, resolved 'for a price'. That's just blatant blood money to me.

[Boethius]

I don't disagree with you, GQ.  I'm just looking at it from the other side where money is not involved.  Perhaps Vaughn's approach was the best.  He once posted that his wife also had nothing good to say about her ex, so Vaughn met with him, promised he'd send the daughter home annually on a trip to see her father, and kept his word.  The father did give his consent, and it worked out well for all of them. 

[JayH]

Boe -it is easy enough to understand that there can be two sides to any story-- the part where western ideas of responsibility is quite different. When confronted with the issues of the mother leaving   Ukraine with a child/children  and a totally uninvolved father can obstruct that it is not reasonable. Fathers who were not present at any time during the childs life and contributed zero to the childs welfare-- and will continue to contribute zero in the future if child stays-- it is craziness to have to deal with them.
The Ukraine laws are a difficult navigation( with issues like Boe mentioned above) and a nightmare for guys . There are quite a few here on this forum attempting to navigate the system currently.

[Boethius]

But we can't know if the father was not present because of a mother who put obstacles in his way.

One of my former office colleagues did a fair bit of legal aid work.  She ended up representing an impecunious father who had a child support judgment against him which exceeded his monthly salary.  His ex had done this hoping he'd bow out of the children's lives.  She had also moved to the northern part of the province, where her new husband was employed, and fought his request for the children to come spend weekends with him.  So, her client would cut things like food to save his money and bus to the town, in order  to see his children.  My colleague was so outraged at the support payments and the obstacles to accessing his children, that she took the case all the way to the Supreme Court, changing the existing law on support in the process.  This type of tactic by a mother, in order to alienate a child from the father, is common in the West.  Courts now even recognize it, and on rare occasions in Canada, have even jailed mothers who defy access orders.  Why would it be any different elsewhere? 


Of course, there are cases of fathers who abandon their children.  But I suspect there are also cases where mothers have made the decision to cut access.  So, it is not always cut and dried.