The last gasp - Women with children

[XMan]

It looks like my previous thread has 500+ posts, and I doubt what I have to say at this point fits there, thus this new thread.

After the "Family Board" decision, then a judges decision (and who knows how many court dates, I lost track honestly, I know it hit double digits), of which she won on both counts, it then went to an appeals court in another city.  No, I do not know why.  After more than a dozen trips to Ukraine and 6 years of experience there, I still cannot claim to understand a number of things.  The corrupt government and court system in general are two examples.  The squatter toilets in some places, including the Ivano-Frankovsk airport, is another.

The custody decision, originally in her favor after the first two decisions, was reversed on appeal.  I imagine her ex-husband somehow came up with bribe money.  Now there is another motion and an appeal against the appeal (for lack of a better phrase), and another court date, etc. 

So I will say it once again.

Pursue a woman with a child under the age of 18 at your own risk.

For all those who feel otherwise and think it's "wrong" to write off a woman with a child under the age of 18, I understand.  I felt that way myself.  I thought, a woman with a child has a lot to offer.  I want the family experience, etc., etc. 

But live through a few years of my situation and then come tell me how you should still pursue a woman with a child or children.  Drop a bunch of cash on lawyers and a variety of other expenses, go through the emotional roller coaster, deal with the fallout, and come back to me and tell me it was worth it.  Especially tell me about it after you lose and then 3 years of your life is gone.  Because I would love to hear how that experience made you stronger, a better person, etc. 

I know it is difficult to ask up front.  But seriously, if you lose your grasp of reality (hell, you started this pursuit of a foreign relationship, so you are halfway there already), and decide write a woman with a child, I would make certain before you got deeply involved that you know the custody / parental rights status.  Take nothing for granted.  The "father" in this case was absentee for 5 years, was caught lying on the stand (yes, caught, red-handed, with photographic evidence), and still bribed his way to victory on appeal.  You damned well better see proof up front or you risk this outcome. 

I don't really know where the appeals process ends. 
Perhaps never. 
I do know that the K-1 is finite. 

Regardless, if you are looking for a new way to get F$@!&D within an inch of your life, then by all means, pursue a woman with a child.  Think, "it won't happen to me," think, "it will work out," think, "well other guys have done it," etc., etc.  Roll the dice.  You might get lucky. 

Or, you could say, "I don't think I want to deal with that." 

That, my "Starting Out" friends, would be wise. 

XMan

[jmana]

Sorry for hijacking your other thread, and more importantly sorry to hear how things worked out for you.

[XMan]

No worries. 
I don't consider the other thread hijacked at all. 
I wasn't sure I would even post anything further.
Thanks. 

[Daveman]

I hate to hear of your experience, Xman, but if there is a silver lining it's that by the time this has been resolved the child will have reached the age of majority and the situation will have resolved itself.

[Muzh]

Dang!
 
What a mess. Sorry to hear your misfortunes Xman.
 
Out of curiosity, did you ever met with the child's father?
 
Not that it would make any difference. As I said, just curious.

[Wayne]

Xman, if you are really in love with this UW, have you considered living in Ukraine until the child is an adult? By the way, I don't think 18 has anything to do with it, 16 is the age when a child gets their adult passport and can travel on their own without parent's permission in Ukraine. Also, I think the US Embassy in Kyiv goes with the 16 year. Check it out on their website.
 
How old is the child?
 
If the father is really serious about visitation with the child, why not set up a 90 days with mother, 90 days with father living arrangement? Get married in Ukraine if you really love this woman!  Apply for the CR1 visa. When you get that, you and your (now) wife can travel back and forth.
 
If your job won't allow this, and you really love this woman, get a job that will!

[BillyB]

Pursue a woman with a child under the age of 18 at your own risk.

Hopefully guys who are about to or are currently pursing a RW with a child talk to their lady in depth about the ex husband before making plans for marriage. The ex husband is the third person with a say on whether or not you two will get married.


Xmen, your story is not the first I've read where the ex husband ends a relationship between his ex and a foreign man. No matter how bad a guy he is, or the fact the justice system seems unfair, he still has a right to have his child live near him and in the end, it's a good thing that men over there till have those rights. With that said, guys who pursue women with children should understand that they may experience some of what you've had.

[XMan]

Actually, I have spent several months searching for alternatives (particularly living in Ukraine and working remotely somehow).  Thus far I have been unable to come up with a realistic option.

Talking to the ex-husband seems completely out of the question.  She is convinced he is hell bent on ruining her life.  Given what I have seen, I would agree.  He blew the child off for 5 years, then suddenly showed interest when she pursued things in court.  He never paid any child support.  He bribed someone to get "level three disability" (equivalent to losing a limb) for a supposed back injury.  Not too wisely, he posted photos of playing on the beach, partying, etc., and has been working in Yalta in the tourist season.  She downloaded those photos and took them to court as evidence that he was lying about his back injury, as well as a number of other things.  In the USA he'd be in jail for 10 years for fraud, forced to pay child support, etc.  But, it's Ukraine.

Honestly, I just don't see a way to fix this scenario.  I've spent a lot of time, energy, etc., trying to.

I agree that if you pursue a woman with a child, by all means try to find out if a future is even possible.  I still extremely strongly recommend avoiding it altogether.  In this case, with a second wife and two other children to care for, and historically no interest (though I am getting one side of that, but considering his other traits, I tend to believe her), it seemed unlikely to be an issue.   

Turns out not to be the case.

[Wayne]

It is not just a matter of getting sole custody--you would need to terminate the father's parental rights. Here is some information I found:
 
Question
Dear Karina, I saw your web site a brief of my problem, I am to marry a lady from the Ukraine, but her ex will not sign papers to take her daughter out of Ukraine unless I pay him a large sum of money I saw on your site their is a way to do it with out his consent as long as i can prove her living will be better, if you can help or tell me some one who can you would have my thanks.

Answer
 The problem can be solved in two ways:

1) Termination of parental rights;

2) Obtaining of a court order allowing leaving the Ukraine.

Termination of parental rights is the best solution but it’s not always possible. In order to terminate parental rights you have to prove that the father lost interest in the child, doesn’t take part in the child’s life, doesn’t call, doesn’t try to meet the child and doesn’t support the child financially. If you obtain a court order terminating the father’s parental rights you will not have to contact the child’s father ever again in any event, you will not need his consent for leaving the Ukraine or obtaining any visa or residence permit or even foreign citizenship.

If termination of parental rights is impossible, the mother can file a lawsuit in court seeking a permission to travel abroad.

Art. 29, part 4 of the Civil Code of the Ukraine says that a place of residence of a child under the age of 10 shall be the place of residence of the child’s parents or the custodial parent.

According to Art. 150, part 2 of the Family Code of the Ukraine, parents shall take care of the child’s health and physical, mental and moral development.
According to Art. 313 of the Civil Code of the Ukraine, a child under the age of 16 can leave the Ukraine subject to his/her parents’ consent or accompanied by the persons authorized by the parents.

According to Art. 4, part 2 of the Law of the Ukraine “Procedure of exit from and entry into the Ukraine”, travel documents can be issued to a child only subject to submission of a notarized consent of the child’s parents or a court order permitting issue of travel documents (Art. 4 of the Law of the Ukraine “Procedure of exit from and entry into the Ukraine”; clause 3, Art. 2-2- of the Principles of State Border Crossing by Citizens of the Ukraine approved by Resolution № 57 of the Cabinet of Ministers dated the 27th of January 1995).

According to Art. 155 of the Family Code of the Ukraine, exercise of parental rights and performance of parental duties shall be based on respect for the child’s rights. Parental rights cannot be exercised in prejudice of the child’s interests. According to Art. 3 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, in all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.

But you should take into account that as a rule a permit to leave the Ukraine is granted subject to mandatory indication of the destination country and the period of stay in that country, i.e. the court is unlikely to grant a permit to leave the Ukraine if you are leaving for the purpose of permanent residence abroad as it contradicts Art. 141, 153, and157 of the Family Code of the Ukraine, which provide for equal parental rights and duties of both parents, accordingly, if you leave the Ukraine for the purpose of permanent residence abroad it will deny the father the opportunity to meet the child or be a part of the child’s life. Therefore, if you can’t or don’t want to terminate the father’s parental rights and decide to obtain a court order allowing leaving the Ukraine, you should understand that in such case the father’s parental rights will be reserved. Therefore, upon arrival to the USA you will need to file a child custody lawsuit in the Family Court at the county of your residence. If the US court awards the sole custody to you, you will not need the father’s consent for obtaining the documents required for residing abroad.

If you cancel the father’s parental rights in Ukraine, you will not need to take legal actions abroad, otherwise the custody matters shall be handled in your new country of residence.

We’ll be happy to conduct your case. As a rule, such cases are examined at the defendant’s place of residence, i.e. Kharkiv, but we’ll see whether there are any exceptions in your case allowing examination of the case at your place of residence (Odessa). In any event you’ll need to prepare a package of documents and proofs including 2-3 witnesses to support the stated claims.

We’ll be happy to help you.
   The above is from a Ukrainian Attorney website.

[tfcrew]

..ex will not sign papers to take her daughter out of Ukraine unless I pay him a large sum of money...
 
   The above is from a Ukrainian Attorney website.

Attny= a sum of money too.
So is worth it all or not?

Then there is the matter of having a child who grows up among the peers that choose/are chosen.
Personally, I've seen some real messes there.

[tfcrew]

Also...any attachment that a child has to their father will weigh in.

[XMan]

Wayne, I appreciate the information.  Thanks.  The attorney has not always explained things in a clear fashion.

<In order to terminate parental rights you have to prove that the father lost interest in the child, doesn’t take part in the child’s life, doesn’t call, doesn’t try to meet the child and doesn’t support the child financially.>  It was proven quite clearly, but does not seem to matter.  During the Parental Board sessions the child was even interviewed by a psychologist, providing additional proof, if you will.  As I believe I mentioned, she was successful in that round, and in the following court hearing, but then the appeal happened and she lost.  I cannot claim to know the intricacies of everything that occurred, but as I mentioned, I suspect well place bribe(s).   

tfcrew:  <Attny= a sum of money too.
So is worth it all or not?>

It's never worth it if you lose, and I am questioning whether it's worth it if you win, thus my posts concerning recommendations to those starting out.  This process is difficult enough as it is.  Why make it harder on oneself by pursuing a woman with a child.  Had I known the real risk of failure more fully, I would not have.  It's that simple. 

It's been a long, hard road.  And currently I have nothing positive to show for it. 

 

[jone]

It is a long hard road that XMan traversed.  I have met some beautiful women that had children.  But after ascertaining the relationship with the ex-husband or father of the child, discarded the relationship simply because I could never see a situation where the woman would be free to take the child overseas.

Even in the best of situations the road to get a visa for a child is significant.  To travel down it with a child's father who is involved or has an ax to grind is very prohibitive.

[Gator]

Russian kids are delightful.  I never encountered such problems.

I am reminded of Vaughn's experience.  When courting his future wife, his future stepdaughter still maintained a relationship with her father.  Vaughn met the father.  The father relented to her emigrating,  recognizing the wonderful opportunities that awaited her in America. 

Sorry xman about your experience.  I am certain you loved the mother and child.  You did everything possible, yet the bad outcome could not be prevented.  Maybe the experience will enourage the father to spend time with his child.

[XMan]

I am glad Vaughn had that experience. 
I am the flip-side of that coin. 

One evening over 18 months ago we called a taxi from a restaurant.  I was talking to a friend.  She walked out to the taxi to ask him to wait a few minutes and her ex was driving the taxi, so she paid him and he left, but her hands were shaking in fear from that 2 minute encounter.  She was relieved to hear later that he moved to Yalta.  I don't know the full story of what happened in the past.  This indicated that it wasn't good.  Regardless, she has insisted from the outset that talking to him was pointless, and had hoped that the multiple times he never showed for a court hearing, the fact that he had bribed someone to get disability money, etc., meant he would never show and she would move forward uncontested. 

She doesn't want to give up at this point.  I don't either.  But I cannot envision a realistic alternative.  A relationship where I visit her twice per year?  She wants to get married in Ukraine and live there, but I just don't have the resources without some additional income working remotely or for an international company or something. 

So, I say what I said before.

There are guys who have had Vaughn's experience. 
There are those who have had mine.
Choose if you want to use your resources to gamble on the outcome.

[Muzh]

A relationship where I visit her twice per year?  She wants to get married in Ukraine and live there, but I just don't have the resources without some additional income working remotely or for an international company or something. 

That would be very dangerous for you. If what she claims is true about eliciting that kind of reaction when she saw her ex. Out there you can be a 'victim' of a car plowing into you while waiting for a taxi.

[LAman]

Xman, a guy I knew a few years ago ran into a situation similar to yours. Since the ex wouldn't sign papers( he was an absentee father) the course of action their lawyer in Ukraine took was too sue the ex for back child support. In the face of a judgment for back pay, he relented and agreed to signed papers.....it worked for their case.

[XMan]

Xman, a guy I knew a few years ago ran into a situation similar to yours. Since the ex wouldn't sign papers( he was an absentee father) the course of action their lawyer in Ukraine took was too sue the ex for back child support. In the face of a judgment for back pay, he relented and agreed to signed papers.....it worked for their case.

Trying that now. Not sure what the result will be.

[steveboy]

My best friend is married to a girl from Samara she has two kids, her ex husband is a cop! He had considerable trouble on this issue, in fact he gave the guy a bloody nose on two occasions once in the supermarket , lol.
There are other ways to sort out the ex husband and make him come round to your way of thinking but its not entirely suitable for the faint hearted

[JayH]

Trying that now. Not sure what the result will be.

You must pursue all legal measures to apply pressure to your cause.LAman approach is important part to exert pressure to get what is needed.

[Patagonie]

Hopefully guys who are about to or are currently pursing a RW with a child talk to their lady in depth about the ex husband before making plans for marriage. The ex husband is the third person with a say on whether or not you two will get married.


Xmen, your story is not the first I've read where the ex husband ends a relationship between his ex and a foreign man. No matter how bad a guy he is, or the fact the justice system seems unfair, he still has a right to have his child live near him and in the end, it's a good thing that men over there till have those rights. With that said, guys who pursue women with children should understand that they may experience some of what you've had.

+1

As you wrote it Billy, assess deeply, as possible, before making plans for marriage.
It was also a concern for me, especially to not enter in a bribing plan, because you never know where you are going. My friends in the country told me that they are legal ways but as we see in this story we know that judges can be also bribed and the husband has the advantage to live there, and furthermore you never know which type of connections he has with the underworld, the police, the judges.
So i preferred to meet the guy and earned his esteem. My wife was also strong about this.

Xman really sorry for you, guy.

[Shadow]

The problems you see are worst when the new man does not take the initiative to make direct contact. For the RM he is a wuss for not wanting to solve things like a man.