More Bad News for Russia

[Boethius]

Referencing a few intellectuals who were westward looking does not make the point that Ukraine was westward looking.  It wasn't.  It has always been in Russia's orbit and looking eastward.  I don't say that as a slur.  It's just a fact.  It has always been inextricably linked with Russian history, starting with Kievan Rus.

Once again, this demonstrates the paucity of your knowledge.

In case you were unaware of historical facts, Ukraine was divided in two.  Roughly half of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire.  Roughly half of it was part of the Polish Empire, and later, the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  Do you believe the Ukrainians living in that part of Ukraine which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire looked East?  No, they did not. 

By the way, not all the names I listed were those of Ukrainian intellectuals. 

Kiev Rus' was no more a part of Russian history than it was/is a part of Ukrainian or Belarussian history.  It was the precursor state of all the Eastern Slavs.  The language they spoke is not modern day Russian.  And yes, they were so focused on Russia, that at their zenith, the Kievan Rus' empire extended all the way to that famous Eastern Russian mountain range known as the Carpathians.

I once had the opportunity to learn Ukrainian history when I marked for Ukrainian history course.  This course was taken mostly by Ukrainians, presumably because they saw it as an "easy" Arts credit, which they needed for their science degree.

The most I learned about Ukrainian history were from two students who wrote exceptional and well-researched papers.  Judging from their last names, they weren't Ukrainian.  All the Ukrainian students simply wrote nonsensical diatribes which we based on "my father told me this..." blah blah.

Given the opportunity to teach, Ukrainians had nothing of value to offer, so you are right, my Ukrainian history is a bit dodgy.

Well good for you.  I have an MA in Soviet studies, with a major in history.  Yes, you are absolutely correct.  There are no preeminent Ukrainian historians.  No Mykhailo Hrushevsky, whose works are still referred to well over a century after he wrote them, and whose works on the Cossacks are still the best sources in existence.  No Ivan Rudnytsky, Zenon Korhut, John-Paul Himka, Paul Magosci, Volodymyr Kubijovy,  Roman Senkus, Marko Stech, Andrij Makuch, Taras Hunczak, Orest Subtelny, or Serhii Plokhii.  Those are the ones I can name off the top of my head.  Many of them are outstanding academics.

Russia has been interfering in Ukrainian life since 1994?  So what are you saying?  That Russia stopped interfering for 3 years and then started again?

Is your knowledge of recent Russian history as weak as your Ukrainian history?  You are aware that there were two attempted coups against Yeltsin between 1992 and 1994, are you not?

Afghan, Uzbek and other refugees live better in Russia than from where they left.  That's why they came and that's why they haven't gone back, which they are always free to do.  I didn't say it's Club Med or something.

And that is different from Ukraine, exactly, how?  It has Africans, Vietnamese, Afghans, Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, etc., living throughout the country.  Google Mustafa Nayyem.

[Boethius]

The geographical realities of Ukraine means that it has to try to be successful within its geographical reality.  Russia isn't trying to gobble it up any more than Ukraine is already a regurgitation of Russia.

Damn, I just got hungry for pierogies!

Pierogies are Polish.  Pyrohy are Ukrainian. 


Russia is in fact trying to gobble up Ukraine.  What do you think Putin's pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU trade deal was about?


Given your comparison to the US, when did the US put pressure on Canada to reject CETA? 

[Bounder]

Once again, this demonstrates the paucity of your knowledge.


In case you were unaware of historical facts, Ukraine was divided in two.  Roughly half of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire.  Roughly half of it was part of the Polish Empire, and later, the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  Do you believe the Ukrainians living in that part of Ukraine looked East?  No, they did not. 


By the way, not all the names I listed were of Ukrainian intellectuals. 


Kiev Rus' was no more a part of Russian history than it was/is a part of Ukrainian or Belarussian history.  It was the precursor state of all the Eastern Slavs.  The language they spoke is not modern day Russian.  And yes, they were so focused on Russia, that at their zenith, the Kievan Rus' empire extended all the way to that famous Eastern Russian mountain range known as the Carpathians.



Well good for you.  I have an MA in Soviet studies, with a major in history.  Yes, you are absolutely correct.  There are no preeminent Ukrainian historians.  No Mykhailo Hrushevsky, whose works are still referred to well over a century after he wrote them, and whose works on the Cossacks are still the best sources in existence.  No Ivan Rudnytsky, Zenon Korhut, John-Paul Himka, Paul Magosci, Volodymyr Kubijovy,  Roman Senkus, Marko Stech, Andrij Makuch, Taras Hunczak, Orest Subtelny, or Serhii Plokhii.  Those are the ones I can name off the top of my head.  Many of them are outstanding academics.


Is your knowledge of recent Russian history as weak as your Ukrainian history?  You are aware that there were two attempted coups against Yeltsin between 1992 and 1994, are you not?


Let me refresh your memory a little -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis



And that is different from Ukraine, exactly, how?  It has Africans, Vietnamese, Afghans, Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, etc., living throughout the country.  Google Mustafa Nayyem.

If you don't think I respect the war dead, I haven't more to say to you.  Besides, I have a paucity of knowledge and must be a complete imbecile on all these topics because I have a different point of view.

You want to belittle, then go ahead.  You can belittle someone else and be happy in your Ukrainian safespace where your ideas are never seriously challenged.

I don't want to debate with children who have to preamble every comment with a version "what an idiot you are".

I don't do it to you and I expect the same in return.

[Bounder]

Pierogies are Polish.  Pyrohy are Ukrainian. 


Russia is in fact trying to gobble up Ukraine.  What do you think Putin's pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU trade deal was about?


Given your comparison to the US, when did the US put pressure on Canada to reject CETA?

Yes, I know.  We still use other than Ukrainian words for our food.  The Ukrainian fascists ran us out of your god blessed country.

[Boethius]

If you don't think I respect the war dead, I haven't more to say to you.

Please post where I stated anything about the war dead.  You don't get to make up random cr@p.

Besides, I have a paucity of knowledge and must be a complete imbecile on all these topics because I have a different point of view.

You want to belittle, then go ahead.  You can belittle someone else and be happy in your Ukrainian safespace where your ideas are never seriously challenged.

You do have a paucity of knowledge.  If you didn't, you would not have posted about Kiev Rus' being "Russian" history (it's East Slavic history, and you will find it in Ukrainian history books as well as Russian history books, and Belarussian history books).  You would not have posted about Ukrainians "always looking Eastward".  That is inaccurate as well.

I am not belittling you by pointing to your lack of knowledge.  Nothing I have posted which contradicts your assertions is in any way controversial.  You, OTOH, have posted there are no Ukrainian historians, and you expect to be taken seriously.

I don't want to debate with children who have to preamble every comment with a version "what an idiot you are".

I don't do it to you and I expect the same in return.

I never posted you are an idiot.  Just that you are commenting on things that it is evident you have little knowledge of, either in the historical or the current one.  Pointing to that is hardly calling you an idiot.  Lack of knowledge is not akin to idiocy. 

There used to be a poster here named Stirlitz (that's a character from a Soviet television programme).  He is from Crimea, and lives in Odessa.  He is ethnically Russian, and until recently, didn't even speak Ukrainian.  When Russia started the troubles in Ukraine, he was witness to many of them first hand, including the fire in Odessa, which he blamed in Russian provocateurs.  So, he joined the Ukrainian army.  That is the current reality of a citizen of Ukrainian, even an ethnically Russian one. 

[whynotme]

Kiev Rus' was no more a part of Russian history than it was/is a part of Ukrainian or Belarussian history.  It was the precursor state of all the Eastern Slavs.  The language they spoke is not modern day Russian.  And yes, they were so focused on Russia, that at their zenith, the Kievan Rus' empire extended all the way to that famous Eastern Russian mountain range known as the Carpathians.

As you are a foreigner it's understandable you don't know the history well. Surely you never tried to read the Old Slavic manuscripts, otherwise there would have been a surprise for you because their language is much closer to the Russian than to artificially created Ukrainian.

Иди учи матчасть и не позорься. http://1981dn.livejournal.com/34815.html

[Boethius]

I have read OCS manuscripts, because I studied it in university.  I don't recall stating Ukrainian was closer to it than other languages.  However, Russian no longer uses the vocative case, which exists in OCS.  Ukrainian does.

I studied Bulgarian (long story).  I think it is closer to OCS than either Russian or Ukrainian.

Ukrainian is not an "artificially created" language.

[Boethius]

Yes, I know.  We still use other than Ukrainian words for our food.  The Ukrainian fascists ran us out of your god blessed country.

It was a joke.  Just as if I use the term "pyrohy", my better half corrects me and says "varynyky".


But, forget it.  So you're a Ukrainian hating Pole.  Gotcha.

[JayH]

Jay, with all due respect, do you have any better sources?  STS-1492news quoting "The the New York the Times"??? Huh?  I haven't looked to see if the NYT is actually reporting this, I'm putting in as much effort as you.  To the reported speech itself, it reminds me of reporting in Indian and other newspapers: "So, of Germany it is or about other countries, I do not think you get support that need."  What does it even mean? 

Look, Jay, I stand to be corrected and if Trump has come out pro-Ukraine, then so be it.  I don't think he's such a fool as to join the wrong side though.  If he is backing Ukraine, you DO understand that he is using them as a pawn, right?  Because, what else is Ukraine other than a pawn?

"we will expand the sanctions against Russia and Russian oil companies, will strengthen the impact on the banking sector and isolate it as North Korea, "

Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/svit/v-kremle-panyka-tramp-usylym-sanktsyy-protyv-rf-y-yzolyruem-kak-severnuyu-koreyu/

Transcript: Donald Trump Expounds on His Foreign Policy Views



http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/us/politics/donald-trump-transcript.html?_r=5

[JayH]

For those that seem intent on arguing about the obvious


The document names the situation in Crimea and Sevastopol a ‘factual ongoing state of occupation'.

The report also provides an analysis of the conflict in eastern Ukraine, saying that additional information points to ‘direct military engagement between Russian armed forces and Ukrainian government forces'.

Hague report points at Russia-Ukraine armed conflict

The available information suggests that the situation within Crimea amounts to an international armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

http://uatoday.tv/crime/hague-report-points-at-russia-ukraine-armed-conflict-806284.html

[Anotherkiwi]

...Look at the BBC timeline of events in Ukraine:

February 23-26, 2014:

Parliament votes to ban Russian as the second official language, causing a wave of anger in Russian-speaking regions

For some reason, nobody has pulled you up on this, nor have you corrected it yourself.

Yes, Parliament (Rada) voted to ban Russian as the second official language - and they rescinded that ban almost immediately.

[AkMike]

The International Court in the Hague has ruled that Russia has actually invaded and annexed Krim illegally.     


So what does Russia do in response? It withdraws from the Rome Agreement that authorized the court and it's rulings. 


The only thing that's saving their popkas is that they (at this time) still have veto power at the UN's Security Council.


 Now is the time to apply heavy sanctions and remover Russia from SWIFT to bring down
these ruthless criminals in charge.
http://themoscowtimes.com/news/hague-tribunal-recognizes-crimean-annexation-as-a-military-conflict-between-russia-ukraine-56154




http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/11/17/hague-court-rules-against-moscow-on-crimea-so-moscow-withdraws-from-rome-agreement/

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[Boethius]

For some reason, nobody has pulled you up on this, nor have you corrected it yourself.

Yes, Parliament (Rada) voted to ban Russian as the second official language - and they rescinded that ban almost immediately.

This is inaccurate.  This is a good overview of the law as it existed and the proposal -


http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/05/25/ukrainian-vs-russian-the-ban-that-never-was/

[JayH]

This is inaccurate.  This is a good overview of the law as it existed and the proposal -


http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/05/25/ukrainian-vs-russian-the-ban-that-never-was/

Major point is that it actually protects the use of Russian !

It has been answered many times previously on this forum.

Part of the point of the headline is that Putin's actions have raised  the use of Ukrainian --or at least more of it-- in the population generally.
The rise is in the concept of a "new' Ukraine - free of Russian interference and corruption etc was incredibly strong during 2014  as the hope spread across Ukraine.
Of course -- on Crimea people never got the chance -nor in eastern Ukraine where Russia was most active in promoting it's own agenda.
In both areas- the myth of the Russian language being "banned" was promoted erroneously.

[ML]

We became friends with two professors here from Kharkiv.
And we have had their parents to our house when they were in town for a visit.
They are ethnic Ukrainian, but said they had mostly spoken Russian at home.
However now they and most of their friends have switched to speaking Ukrainian exclusively and encourage others to do the same.

[Anotherkiwi]

This is inaccurate.  This is a good overview of the law as it existed and the proposal -

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/05/25/ukrainian-vs-russian-the-ban-that-never-was/

Thanks Boethius.  My error.

[jone]

Don't know if you remember, Kiwi, but that whole banning thing was created to enrage the Russian nationalists in the country.  Just like those idiots marching around in Nazi uniforms.

[AkMike]

 Permian Basin in West Texas has become second to a huge field  in Saudi Arabia in size. This'll take more wind out of the sail of the one trick pony that is Russia. More US exports to Europe of gas and oil will finish bringing Russia back into the international community simply because they are rapidly running out of cash. 
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[/size]  [/size]http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/article114931993.html

[jone]

I have plenty of natural gas for Europe.

[JayH]

Despite all the news being generated by the change of power underway in Washington, there is one story this week that deserves top priority: Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. On Tuesday, the director of the National Security Agency, Admiral Michael Rogers, was asked about the WikiLeaks release of hacked information during the campaign, and he said, "This was a conscious effort by a nation-state to attempt to achieve a specific effect." He added, "This was not something that was done casually. This was not something that was done by chance. This was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily."
The NSA Chief Says Russia Hacked the 2016 Election. Congress Must Investigate.



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/will-congress-investigate-russian-interference-2016-campaign

[JayH]

Not just in the US  --the track of Russian support for extremist organisations across the EU is well known

Germany 'Alarmed' About Potential Russian Interference In Elections

The head of Germany's domestic BfV intelligence agency has expressed concern that Russia may try to interfere in the country's general elections next year.

In an interview with the Reuters news agency late on November 15, Hans-Georg Maassen cited the case last year of a Russian woman from Berlin who Russian media said was kidnapped and raped by migrants -- a claim later rejected by the German government.

"This could happen again next year and we are alarmed," Maassen said.

"We have the impression that this is part of a hybrid threat that seeks to influence public opinion and decision-making processes," he added.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said last week that there were signs of Internet attacks and misinformation campaigns from Russia.

http://www.rferl.org/a/germany-alarmed-russian-interference-elections/28120660.html

[AkMike]

How the Russian economy hit rock bottom.


This is an interesting read of the state the economy of Russia and the possible slow regrowth of their economy to to the level of 2014 by the year 2020.   







http://themoscowtimes.com/articles/how-the-russian-economy-hit-rock-bottom-56185

[Larry1]

I have not seen this mentioned here yet. It's a detailed report on active duty Russian troops fighting in Eastern Ukraine. If you're interested in this topic it's worth a read. It even provides names of some of the troops.

Here's an excerpt:

Russia’s 61st Separate Naval Infantry Brigade in the Donbass.

The following investigation from Askai707 provides a significant amount of evidence that proves the direct participation of Russia’s 61st Separate Naval Infantry Brigade (often referred to as just the “61st Naval Infantry Brigade” or “61st Brigade” in the translation) in the Ukrainian Conflict, particularly in villages near Luhansk in the summer and fall of 2014. Askai identifies about a dozen Russian servicemen who were photographed and filmed in Luhansk at a separatist base in 2014 — many of whom were awarded medals by decree of the Russian President after returning home, and continued serving as active servicemen.

These men who were photographed and filmed fighting in Ukraine in 2014 were not volunteers. These men were not locals. These men were not “on vacation” and acting outside of their duties as servicemen of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

Full report at the link, with photos of the Russian troops and other evidence of the presence of active duty Russian troops.

http://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/11/15/russias-61st-separate-naval-infantry-brigade-donbass/

It might take the Russian Troll Factory a few days to throw up sand to try to dispute this investigation.

[JayH]

  The typical Russian response  to anything that does not fit  the propaganda narrative is to lie -- and then tell more lies  and bigger lies in the attempt to confuse the issue. Often it is basically trying to tell us black is white !

Backed up my the troll army whose charter is to counter any negatives and spread the Kremlin "version' of any set of events.

One of the best example was/is over  the Russian shooting down of MH 17 . Any google search at the time would show literally 100's of results for the various explanations the Kremlin tried to sell the world at any given time. What you may deem more factual news stories from reputable news agencies were buried in a sea  links that offered by the troll army to whatever diversion was being promoted by the Kremlin at that time.
Social media the situation was much the same.To this day -- in every site where public comment is possible the preponderance of those promoting Kremlin bs is extraordinary.
The other comment-sites like this one are not exempt.It is clear enough that we have had a few "sleepers" here . They will be here for some time making a few innocuous posts on general topics  -and gradually another agenda becomes obvious.

The role of Bellingcat in gathering the evidence to prove Russian lies beyond any reasonable doubt should not be underestimated. To say they are the subject of considerable troll attention is an understatement.

[JayH]

Ocsassionally reports surface on those in Russia that are speaking out.
Anton Krasovsky assumes that the Russian people eventually experience a sense of shame for the crimes  committed, against  Ukrainian people and the peoples of other countries.

Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/podiyi
/bravo-zhurnalyst-rf-v-pryamom-efyre-vyzval-
furor-v-sety-obyasnyv-rossyyanam-tyazhest-yh-prestuplenyya-y-nychtozhnost-pered-ukrayntsamy-vydeo/

BRAVO! Russian Journalist live caused a furor in the network Russians explaining the severity of their crimes and significance for Ukrainians

According to him, it is the fault of the Russians suffered millions of Ukrainians who from their land were forced to move to other areas.
In addition, Krasovsky have, the Russians have committed a crime against the people flying to the Malaysian Boeing over the Donbas and shot down a missile from a Russian installation "Buk".




Источник: http://www.amn.com.ua/podiyi/bravo-
zhurnalyst-rf-v-pryamom-efyre-vyzval-furor-v-sety-obyasnyv-rossyyanam-tyazhest-yh-prestuplenyya-y-nychtozhnost-pered-ukrayntsamy-vydeo/