Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[fathertime]

All the terrorists controlled at their strongest was 200 km in a triangle, with Donetsk on one side, Luhansk on a second, and Slovyansk on a third.  With Slovyansk now in Ukrainian hands, and areas just outside Luhansk also now back in Ukrainian control, the area the terrorists control is considerably smaller.   Ukraine has the upper hand.  Its unilateral ceasefires (two) in the past made them a target.  That won't happen again.

Well then if that is the case I'm sure the Ukrainian forces will soon trounce the remaining separatists and this will end quickly and life will move on.  I think they would be better off negotiating with Russia about the federation, but maybe you are right...we will once again find out soon enough. 


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

Interesting piece by a Russian journalist working for Newsweek's The Daily Beast.  She was held by the terrorists, and asserts Strelkov claims that in all of Donbass, with a population of about 4.5 million, only 1,000 locals joined the terrorist ranks.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/putin-s-number-one-gunman-in-ukraine-warns-him-of-possible-defeat.html

[tfcrew]

Vladimir Putin's daughter flees £2million Dutch penthouse flat as fury grows over jet tragedy

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/flight-mh17-vladimir-putins-daughter-3909500#ixzz38WsbaVbL
 

[sleepycat]

OMG! Even his own daughter towers over him.
Must be rough growing up so vertically challenged...

[Anotherkiwi]

OMG! Even his own daughter towers over him.
Must be rough growing up so vertically challenged...

C'mon, Sleepycat, she's Russian - you know she's wearing high heels! 

[Muzh]

1.  I don't think they can win in a referendum.


2.  They are already getting sanctioned and don't appear to have any benefits. 


There does not have to be a 'stage' of discussions.  They spoke. Putin has characterized what he wanted was a federated Ukraine, Poroshenko hasn't contradicted that statement.   So, it appears that is what Russia is asking/demanding.  I don't believe for a moment that Russia WANTS to invade Ukraine, they could have done that months ago.  They are looking to negotiate, albeit overstep their borders in the process. 

Fathertime! 

Dim as a 25 watt bulb.


Any chance that Eastern oblasts would had agreed to a Federation have been dissolved by none other than Putin. Those "Rossiya" chanters suddenly saw what Rossiya stands for in Eastern Ukraine.


I'll say this again, Ukrainians should thank Putin over and over again. He managed to unite such a fractured country and made it whole, as it should be.

[Muzh]

So you are saying that Ukraine is 'winning' because they are taking some land from the Russian Separatists.  I think your assumption is wrong.  Until they rout (if they do) what remains of the Russian Separatists (and their backers), nothing much has important has happened. I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture. 


Fathertime!

I know this is futile but, can you tell us what IS the big picture?

[Faux Pas]

I know this is futile but, can you tell us what IS the big picture?

Obviously it's the Win/Win. Now that the innocents of other nations are dead I suppose it's a win/win/win

[Muzh]

Obviously it's the Win/Win. Now that the innocents of other nations are dead I suppose it's a win/win/win

I know it is a win/win.


But how about if he explain what is win and what is win?


He's been very vague about that and extremely vociferous when called on it.


However, I'm not expecting an answer. More likely like a non sequitur or

[AC]

Interesting piece by a Russian journalist working for Newsweek's The Daily Beast.  She was held by the terrorists, and asserts Strelkov claims that in all of Donbass, with a population of about 4.5 million, only 1,000 locals joined the terrorist ranks.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/putin-s-number-one-gunman-in-ukraine-warns-him-of-possible-defeat.html

"An article published by Strelkov’s adviser, Igor Druzd, on Wednesday laid out the case that Putin, today, is facing the same choice that ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych faced a few months ago: either send in the army and win control over the territories of Novorossiya in eastern Ukraine—or lose his presidency. “I hope that the Ukrainian tragedy will neither become the tragedy of Russia nor the personal tragedy of Putin,” wrote Strelkov’s adviser.

Ukrainian authorities insist that, in fact, Russian heavy weapons already are deployed and Russian personnel already are fighting in Donbass, as eastern Ukraine is known. The Ukrainian authorities say it was the Kremlin, specifically Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoygu, that has coordinated all of Strelkov’s actions.
“We have proved beyond a doubt that Strelkov and other terrorist leaders are equipped with the most destructive weapons and instructed directly by Shoygu,” Anton Gerashchenko, adviser to the Ministry of Interior Affairs, told The Daily Beast. “Shoygu would not dare to send the Grad system, tanks, APCs, and other weapons to Donbass unless Putin approved of it.”

[sleepycat]

Looks like the ambulance chasers (sorry I mean lawyers) are already eyeing a piece of the pie...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10993470/Putin-facing-multi-million-pound-legal-action-over-alleged-role-in-MH17-crash.html?fb

That's one way of getting at the regime, multiple lawsuits in civil court for years to come. Death by a thousand cuts. Good strategy.

[Gator]

But how about if he explain what is win and what is win?

Win for Russia - eastern Ukraine becomes a self-autonomous federation.

Win for Ukraine - it can enjoy temporarily the false hope that Russia will not do anything else.

Win for the passengers killed in MK17 - their families will receive some financial reward if Malaysian Air is not dissolved. 

[Shadow]

"An article published by Strelkov’s adviser, Igor Druzd, on Wednesday laid out the case that Putin, today, is facing the same choice that ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych faced a few months ago: either send in the army and win control over the territories of Novorossiya in eastern Ukraine—or lose his presidency. “I hope that the Ukrainian tragedy will neither become the tragedy of Russia nor the personal tragedy of Putin,” wrote Strelkov’s adviser.

Ukrainian authorities insist that, in fact, Russian heavy weapons already are deployed and Russian personnel already are fighting in Donbass, as eastern Ukraine is known. The Ukrainian authorities say it was the Kremlin, specifically Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoygu, that has coordinated all of Strelkov’s actions.
“We have proved beyond a doubt that Strelkov and other terrorist leaders are equipped with the most destructive weapons and instructed directly by Shoygu,” Anton Gerashchenko, adviser to the Ministry of Interior Affairs, told The Daily Beast. “Shoygu would not dare to send the Grad system, tanks, APCs, and other weapons to Donbass unless Putin approved of it.”

Ukrainian authorities also mentioned Russia is having troops that are using an invisibility cloak.
And those same Ukrainian authorities have launched an attack on the crash site of MH17 in order to remove the separatists. Guess it is the only way to get proof fo their wild accusations.

[AC]

Ukrainian authorities also mentioned Russia is having troops that are using an invisibility cloak.
And those same Ukrainian authorities have launched an attack on the crash site of MH17 in order to remove the separatists. Guess it is the only way to get proof for their wild accusations.

Wild accusations?  I wonder why Russia ordered the separatists terrorists under their control to do their best to:

   a)  Destroy as much evidence as possible

   b)  Not allow qualified investigators full access to the site right away (indeed they still don't have full access, which is why Ukraine may be doing their best to
         dislodge them)

[Shadow]

Wild accusations?  I wonder why Russia ordered the separatists terrorists under their control to do their best to:

   a)  Destroy as much evidence as possible

   b)  Not allow qualified investigators full access to the site right away (indeed they still don't have full access, which is why Ukraine may be doing their best to
         dislodge them)

Where is a copy of those orders? These are exactly the wild accusations I am talking about.

[AC]

Where is a copy of those orders? These are exactly the wild accusations I am talking about.

I will contact Putin and his FSB director right away and get those for you!   


Or we can agree to make some logical deductions about how transparent Governments operate, and simply contrast those with Russia.

[Shadow]

So you admit that it is based on speculation.

Now did you also read the news that the bodies were treated with respect contrary to earlier reports? Did you read that the black boxes were not damaged or tampered with contrary to earlier reports? Did you read that personal belonings found like passports, jewelery and other personal possesions have been gathered in a central place to avoid looting, contrary to reports that they were looted?
I guess that you only read what you wish to, in order to keep youself in a war likemood.

[AC]

So you admit that it is based on speculation.

Now did you also read the news that the bodies were treated with respect contrary to earlier reports? Did you read that the black boxes were not damaged or tampered with contrary to earlier reports? Did you read that personal belonings found like passports, jewelery and other personal possesions have been gathered in a central place to avoid looting, contrary to reports that they were looted?
I guess that you only read what you wish to, in order to keep youself in a war likemood.

It's not speculation to say that Putin and Russia originally refused to acknowledge arming or having control over the terrorists they sent to Ukraine.  Yet now there's overwhelming evidence that heavy weaponry has been sent from Russia, and all the senior leaders in control are Russian citizens.

Perhaps it's you who only comprehends small portions of what he reads, and it's you who is likely denying that Russia has de facto invaded Ukraine, which is an act of war.

[Shadow]

It's not speculation to say that Putin and Russia originally refused to acknowledge arming or having control over the terrorists they sent to Ukraine.  Yet now there's overwhelming evidence that heavy weaponry has been sent from Russia, and all the senior leaders in control are Russian citizens.

Perhaps it's you who only comprehends small portions of what he reads, and it's you who is likely denying that Russia has de facto invaded Ukraine, which is an act of war.

Does buying or getting weapons, or having mercennaries with a nationality prove anything?
Or to say it different, does Obama invade Syria by supplying the (Al Qaida) rebels with weapons?

The laughable thing is that sanctions were imposed to Russia for having control over the separatists, and now sanctions are imposed for not controlling the separatists. Seems whatever happens the result is the same.
So Putin might as well truly invade, take all territory up to the Dnepr and Volga and get it over with. Would actually increase the stability.

[Boethius]

Now did you also read the news that the bodies were treated with respect contrary to earlier reports?


No, I never read that.  I did read speculation they could be tampered with.  However, with most of those stories, I also read that not much would be gained from tampering with the black box.

Did you read that personal belonings found like passports, jewelery and other personal possesions have been gathered in a central place to avoid looting, contrary to reports that they were looted?

I read that at the time of looting.  However, I have also read reports, from the relatives of victims that their loved ones' credit cards were used.  I provided a link to one such report.

[AC]

So Putin might as well truly invade, take all territory up to the Dnepr and Volga and get it over with.

Aw, the truth comes out.  The one honest thing which you've written so far today.   

[Shadow]

I read that at the time of looting.  However, I have also read reports, from the relatives of victims that their loved ones' credit cards were used.  I provided a link to one such report.

I also read those, as most of reports reach the Dutch news faster as any other. Perhaps you also read the report of a woman showing off the mascara she found near the crash site.
There are lowlifes anywhere, and unfotunately in Ukraine as well. However any negative report is enlarged where as the positive ones are somehow kept away from the public eye.

[southernX]

shadow ,

given your pro russian leanings,[ to say the least]

would you not agree that mr putin as russias president is the  man who has the power at the highest level in the russian gov ?
given that above , it is logical  he has the  power to control the russian side of the joint border with ukraine ?  surely a yes ??

logically then he must be either weak or ineffective as president , [which we know he is not ] , or he has chosen to allow the following to continue within russia ?

1 the continued recrutiment of fighters from russia
2 their continued crossing of the border into ukraine
3 their continued transfer of weapons /arms across the russian border
4 the continued supply of tanks , missile systems /apcs , and other military equipment across the russian border into ukraine

there is alot more i could add to the list , however im sure you understand , if the russian president ordered this to stop it would ,
 
why has he not done so shadow ?? if he was serious about russia non involvment in this conflict or as stated was nto responsible for it , or supporting it ??


SX

[Gator]

Shadow,

What is the general opinion of the Dutch people regarding Russia and its involvement in Ukraine? 

Based on the thousands of Dutch lining the streets on the day of mourning, it is clear that the Dutch felt deeply the loss of life in the downing of MH-17.  Yet in many interviews with Dutch, with your PM, and with families,  I did not detect a need for revenge. 

One could say that the New Testament and/or stoicism prevail in your country.  Still, I have an intuitive feeling that away from the camera your government is not turning the other cheek and is pushing fellow European governments to do something.  Not "eye for an eye," yet something stronger than restricting the travel of a few Russian wealthy men.       

[roykirk]

I call him "P-Rex"