Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?

[Taz]

I happened to be browsing the internet this evening and I ran across this article.  It appears that Russia is
 
The US interference of the Russian interference is going to wind up having ramifications worldwide.  It would be very easy to let Russia have it's way with Ukraine, as they pretty much always have.  Doing this doesn't mean that they can do this to other countries in Europe...this was a unique situation.   Just my opinion.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/04/ukraine-crisis-russia-nuclear-idUSL6N0VE2RV20150204
Fathertime!

You are so misguided. It didn't work with Crimea. If there was a significant response with very punitive actions, there would have been less chance of the issues currently in E. Ukraine.


While I don't want a nuclear war and I doubt it will go there. My suggestion would be give nukes back to Ukraine and see what Russia really wants to do. We gutted their defenses and Putin is trying to olay the trump card in his deck.


If the West rolls over on Ukraine, he will not stop there. He is hoping he can hold out until oil goes back up so the sanctions will be less effective. In the meantime he'll keep waging his invasion of Ukraine until the price becomes too high militarily. No amount of sanctions is going to stop him. No amount of negotiations are going to work UNTIL he has secured all the territory he wants and only so he can consolidate his gains!


I really wish the US had mandatory military service for all so they would know what it is like to serve. You will get a better idea of war and understand what is involved. At the same time you'll quickly learn you don't want to engage in it unless you need to but by God once you do, do it to WIN! A very quick war normally limits the casualties on both sides. The long drawn out wars cause massive loss of life. We could help stop this war in a week or 2 if we sent serious defensive weapons and support to Ukraine.

Once Putin realizes the cost will be tremendous to push on, he will stop.

[fathertime]

Did you really "just happened to be browsing the internet" and found all these gem articles, or were you deliberately looking for these articles so Mendeleyev can continue to school you on the subject of international politics?
BTW have you paid him the tuition fees yet?

If I were to quote each time you used the term 'midget' or mongoloid, it would take up an entire page.  So why are you complaining that I'm using the same phrases?  I just happened to like to browse the internet!   


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

You are so misguided. It didn't work with Crimea. If there was a significant response with very punitive actions, there would have been less chance of the issues currently in E. Ukraine.


While I don't want a nuclear war and I doubt it will go there. My suggestion would be give nukes back to Ukraine and see what Russia really wants to do. We gutted their defenses and Putin is trying to olay the trump card in his deck.


If the West rolls over on Ukraine, he will not stop there. He is hoping he can hold out until oil goes back up so the sanctions will be less effective. In the meantime he'll keep waging his invasion of Ukraine until the price becomes too high militarily. No amount of sanctions is going to stop him. No amount of negotiations are going to work UNTIL he has secured all the territory he wants and only so he can consolidate his gains!

 With this set of circumstances I can see it reaching the point of nuclear war.  I don't see Russia sitting by and watching their troops getting routed in Ukraine...  They are taking what they want and we aren't stopping him, and I don't think we will...maybe the western countries have already made that decision and it is only a matter of time and saving face...but we have imposed a $ cost.


Fathertime!   

[AC]

This seems like a hysterical post.  Nobody agreed to all these other places, and I feel it is a weak argument as it pertains to Ukraine.   The Western nations should face the reality of the situation, this particular battle likely goes nuclear if it continues to escalate and Western nations get too involved...I feel that has always been on the table for this unique situation and continue to call for doing what it takes to settle it even if it is hard to swallow.  I suppose we will continue to go through the motions (and I hope that is all it is), but the continued fighting will be very harmful to the Ukrainians involved...hopefully not the rest of the world. 

Who is "we"???  You and the propaganda minister for the Kremlin?  Why don't you come clean and admit that you are a paid blogger for Russia?  Obviously you're not here because of the women, you've got a Latina.  So why are you here?  I know, it's not "nice" of me to ask.  But stop using "we".  There is no we.  Furthermore unless Putin really has completely lost all his marbles he doesn't want Mutually Assured Destruction (use of Nuclear weapons).  It's going to hurt him a lot, but the sooner he gives up his aspirations of taking Ukraine; the better for Russia and the Russian people.  He may get half of Ukraine temporarily, but that is really the key word.  A Republican President will not stand for it.  So get ready to get your arse kicked Putin, it's coming one way or another (and you asked for it, you arrogant midget).

[fathertime]

Who is "we"???  You and the propaganda minister for the Kremlin?  Why don't you come clean and admit that you are a paid blogger for Russia?  Obviously you're not here because of the women, you've got a Latina.  So why are you here?  I know, it's not "nice" of me to ask.  But stop using "we".  There is no we.  Furthermore unless Putin really has completely lost all his marbles he doesn't want Mutually Assured Destruction (use of Nuclear weapons).  It's going to hurt him a lot, but the sooner he gives up his aspirations of taking Ukraine; the better for Russia and the Russian people.  He may get half of Ukraine temporarily, but that is really the key word.  A Republican President will not stand for it.  So get ready to get your arse kicked Putin, it's coming one way or another (and you asked for it, you arrogant midget).

I'm afraid you continue to be mistaken...I seriously don't think WE are going to be dispensing retribution onto Putin the way you think.  I think the better option for US is to do what we are doing now. Leadership in Ukraine can decide what is the best option for their people, given the circumstances and few resources they are currently receiving....and what is likely to happen if they receive too much more.   


  Yeah sure, I'm a paid blogger for Russia!     There are a lot of us here in the USA, we happen to have our opinions regarding what is best, and that makes us paid Russian bloggers...


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

This seems like a hysterical post.  Nobody agreed to all these other places, and I feel it is a weak argument as it pertains to Ukraine.   The Western nations should face the reality of the situation, this particular battle likely goes nuclear if it continues to escalate and Western nations get too involved...I feel that has always been on the table for this unique situation and continue to call for doing what it takes to settle it even if it is hard to swallow.  I suppose we will continue to go through the motions (and I hope that is all it is), but the continued fighting will be very harmful to the Ukrainians involved...hopefully not the rest of the world.


Fathertime!   

Right. . . Because Russia is going to explode a nuclear bomb beside its own border.  Very likely.

This is not a unique situation, other than the fact Ukraine is in Europe, and Europe has not had many wars since the end of WWII.

Mendy  is correct.  This can't be settled the way you envision, without Ukraine giving its sovereignty to Russia.  And at least half of Ukrainians, likely more, are not ready to do that.  If anything, they are moving in the opposite direction, thanks to Putin.

[fathertime]

Right. . . Because Russia is going to explode a nuclear bomb beside its own border.  Very likely.

[/quote


That doesn't have to be the case...I don't where you came up with that thought.

This is not a unique situation, other than the fact Ukraine is in Europe, and Europe has not had many wars since the end of WWII.

Mendy  is correct.  This can't be settled the way you envision, without Ukraine giving its sovereignty to Russia.  And at least half of Ukrainians, likely more, are not ready to do that.  If anything, they are moving in the opposite direction, thanks to Putin.

If these comments are correct, a lot of Ukrainians are willing to give up their sovereignty...I didn't think that was the case.


Well if we wind up 'giving' the Ukrainians weapons you gotta wonder how many will wind up in Russian hands...but just so long as we are charging Ukraine for it I guess it is a good deal for us and our businesses...maybe not for Ukrainians though.


You may wind up correct that this can no longer be settled the way I was envisioning...but maybe that is the best we can realistically hope for at this point...much better than a massacre...or wider war. 


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

There will not be a wider war, because Russians will not support their sons going to fight for Ukrainian territory.  If it is a small number of units, where deaths can be hidden, and mercenaries, that's one thing.  If military units are routinely fighting Ukrainians, particularly if they are well equipped, and young Russians are coming home in body bags more often, the war will not continue.


In any event, Putin doesn't want these territories.  They are not profitable.   He wants Ukraine to bear the cost of them, and for Ukraine to not have trade with the EU.  Russia doesn't want to have to support Ukraine economically.

[Boethius]

Another good piece in the Financial Times about the cost of not arming Ukraine -


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6b91cdfc-ac78-11e4-9d32-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz3Qqw8q36Q

[Brasscasing]

And another...

The rape of Ukraine: America stands by

..."If we won’t provide military materiel to Ukraine now, we deserve the contempt with which Putin regards us."...

http://nypost.com/2015/02/02/the-rape-of-ukraine-america-stands-by/


...True enough.

Brass

[mendeleyev]

I'm impressed! You and Mende both managed to tap dance around this like a couple of pro's. Bravo!

You are tap dancing.

I do the Waltz, Foxtrot, and Swing. Pretty darn well, too. But tap dance? Nope.

Now, kindly point out exactly where you came up with the idea that I tap danced. Don't be shy, use quotes, please.

[mendeleyev]

FT, when will you understand that Ukraine is not the end game? Ukraine is just in the target sights at the moment. The new Eurasian Union, in Mr. Putin's view, includes territory that formerly had been conquered and subjugated by the Imperial Russian Empire. No, Ukraine is just the immediate target.

Appeasement, which is what you advocate no matter how many fancy paint jobs you try to plaster on the pig, is just extending the ultimate agony. That is not fair to freedom minded Ukrainians today, nor ultimately to good but misled Russians.

Do you think that the man would make side jokes about Belarus and Kazakhstan? Just in case you are wondering, he doesn't really have a genuine sense of humour. When he does use humour, it is generally targeted, and almost always a form of bitch-slap at the object.

[Doll]

FT, when will you understand that Ukraine is not the end game? Ukraine is just in the target sights at the moment. 

Every time you forget to say that it is YOUR PERSONAL opinion.
I am sure Americans will consume your "truth" but for Russian reader it is just funny.
Уж очень стараетесь- прям и кожи вон. Переигрываете.
All your "truths" are not worth more than a nickel.

[sleepycat]

All your "truths" are not worth more than a nickel.

And you think your Kremlin feed "truths" are worth more than a nickel?
 

[Doll]

And you think your Kremlin feed "truths" are worth more than a nickel?
 

Pleeeeease- where Kremlin is and where Mendy is hahaaaaaaaaaaaa
Просветитель земли обетованной (Менделеев)
Хоть бы фамилию уж не позорил.

[Steamer]

Now, kindly point out exactly where you came up with the idea that I tap danced. Don't be shy, use quotes, please.

[/size] "[/size]Again fairly obvious...for diplomatic reasons. Although President Obama is changing his language on this and seems to be more comfortable in identifying who the real troops are."

[jone]

Quite honestly, I can't see the reason for your post, Steamer. 

I thought his statement was fairly accurate.  Obama has been inching ever closer to naming the troops and units in Ukraine.  Keep in mind that the US has always had intelligence assets that the governmental powers choose not to reveal.  My sources on Capital Hill tell me that there was never any doubt as to who shot down Flight 17.  They also tell me that there is direct knowledge about which units and which troops are participating in Eastern Ukraine. 

However, there are bigger fish to fry than a regional conflict with Ukraine.  For thirty years, the participants of the Great Game were disinterested.  Now the Game is back and the newer players are making slow moves to feel out their opponents. 

I am the first to state that Russia has very few game pieces to play.   But Russia is playing those pieces and pretty soon the US will make its first move.  It should be pointed out that the last time the Game was played, Europe was not half as powerful in its ability to respond as it is now. 

On another note, I was not surprised that the Germans slapped down Greece and left Greece's banks to fend for themselves.  Immediately Putin invited the new government of Greece to visit in May.   

[Steamer]

I thought his statement was fairly accurate.  Obama has been inching ever closer to naming the troops and units in Ukraine.

It sounds like a cop out.

[Brasscasing]

It sounds like a cop out.

Where are you finding these disconnected one sentence responses - immaterialsmartasscomments-r-us.com?

It appears you're simply copy/pasting them from the internet to this forum when you read a post you don't like. They don't make sense.

Do you have anything pertinent to add to this discussion?

Brass

[Steamer]

Do you have anything pertinent to add to this discussion?

Sure but nothing that you'd listen to. Pearls before swine.

[AkMike]

Sure but nothing that you'd listen to. Pearls before swine.

 Wow such a snappy come back.. 

[Steamer]

Wow such a snappy come back.. 

4Q2

[Brasscasing]

He gave himself away. Look up Theocratic War strategy.

Brass

[Muzh]

 With this set of circumstances I can see it reaching the point of nuclear war.  I don't see Russia sitting by and watching their troops getting routed in Ukraine...  They are taking what they want and we aren't stopping him, and I don't think we will...maybe the western countries have already made that decision and it is only a matter of time and saving face...but we have imposed a $ cost.


Fathertime!

Ay, ay, ay!


First, Putler is showing signs of desperation and is instituting the North Korea Syndrome. You know what that is, no?


Second, if any Western country goes to Ukraine would be to help them maintain territorial sovereignty, as in defending their homeland. And since there are no Russian troops in Ukraine, why would you say that Putler's troops would be routed? Are you saying that the West will use Ukraine as a stepping stone to invade Russia?


Are you serious?

[Brasscasing]

Second, if any Western country goes to Ukraine would be to help them maintain territorial sovereignty, as in defending their homeland. And since there are no Russian troops in Ukraine, why would you say that Putler's troops would be routed? Are you saying that the West will use Ukraine as a stepping stone to invade Russia?

Which would more than likely elicit a response similar to this...



Brass