Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.

[lordtiberius]

I should have qualified this by saying "helping Ukraine with a Marshal type of financial plan".  Of course those who have friends and family over there should be congratulated for doing their best to help Ukraine financially right now.  I know of two posters here who have done that -- Akmike and Taz.

I think that most of us hope that when Ukraine no longer has a constant military threat from Russia, they will be able to receive something like a Marshal Plan.  That is contingent though on Ukraine having dealth with it's corruption problem.  So in all honesty there is some fear on my part that they have a long way to go.  And I understand fathertimes concerns that US money should go for US needs.  Most of us who read about the financial waste and cost for infrastructure in Iraq were pretty upset about it, when there were pressing needs right here in the USA. 

I'm thinking of a couple of bridges that went out in the last year alone here in the USA, and it's probably the tip of the iceberg due to neglect.  So clearly this is a fair concern.

US money going to US needs?  We are talking about the same FT, right?  He hates America.

[fathertime]

US money going to US needs?  We are talking about the same FT, right?  He hates America.

You must be very angry again....GOOD!  Don't blame me, I was for making more real efforts to negotiate peace early on (while you insisted there be bloodshed)...this is playing out badly for Ukraine, just the way some part of you probably wanted it to.


Fathertime! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Bo -

I would have no problem with part of my tax dollars used to stabilize a country.  The people who would object the most are probably the ones who aren't paying in in the first place.  They probably sit around all day with big beer bellies complaining that the US isn't doing enough for them. 

Then when someone tries to stand up to propose  a solution that involves contributing money that is to be used to rebuild an economy and society, they belly ache like its their own personal savings account.

Ah, jone passing out those blanket statements he seems to have a problem with.  Jone seems to think charity is best spent overseas while using money to help fellow Americans is considered welfare because they are all beer drinking lazy people. 

[lordtiberius]

Ahh, you have jone all wrong.  He doesn't believe this worth going to war over that would include aiding Ukraine. Tell us again about your awesome love life again.

[lordtiberius]

You must be very angry again....GOOD!  Don't blame me, I was for making more real efforts to negotiate peace early on (while you insisted there be bloodshed)...this is playing out badly for Ukraine, just the way some part of you probably wanted it to.


Fathertime!

Really?  What does peace look like FT?  Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine?  Has Russia invaded?  Who shot down MH 17?

[jone]

Ah, jone passing out those blanket statements he seems to have a problem with.  Jone seems to think charity is best spent overseas while using money to help fellow Americans is considered welfare because they are all beer drinking lazy people.

Nope.  Wrong again.

A successfully run business always has a charitable wing to it.  We donate to many worthy causes here in the US.  We also donate to those who are less fortunate in other countries. 

As for laziness, I grew up in the Midwest.  We were hardworking and upstanding people.  I cannot understand that work ethic that pervades Southern California.  But I do say this: I was surprised at the pushback from you, LFU.  I would think you would be one of the first on the bandwagon hoping to give the people who welcomed you in their country a hand up in their time of crisis.

Tell me, when is the last time you helped a street person - or volunteered your time for something that was not self serving?  I hope it was quite recent because I don't see you as a self serving sociopath.  I see you as someone who stands up for what he believes in. 

[fathertime]

Nope.  Wrong again.

A successfully run business always has a charitable wing to it.  We donate to many worthy causes here in the US.  We also donate to those who are less fortunate in other countries. 
 

What a self-serving statement.....in other words: "I"m great and successful"....it is just unverifiable complimentary words YOU write about YOURSELF. 

. 

As for laziness, I grew up in the Midwest.  We were hardworking and upstanding people.  I cannot understand that work ethic that pervades Southern California.   

So when are you moving?  Obviously you are too good for the people here....

: I was surprised at the pushback from you, LFU.  I would think you would be one of the first on the bandwagon hoping to give the people who welcomed you in their country a hand up in their time of crisis.

Tell me, when is the last time you helped a street person - or volunteered your time for something that was not self serving?  I hope it was quite recent because I don't see you as a self serving sociopath.  I see you as someone who stands up for what he believes in. 

Platitudes and brow-nosing from the same guy who just called people beer-bellied non tax payers because they may have other priorities (within our borders) and not Ukraine.  You better agree with him LFU or you are a 'self serving sociopath' or a 'beer bellied lazy man'!   


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

That is NOT always the case...has the Iraq/Afghanistan money come back in spades? 




Of course you wouldn't have a problem with your tax dollars being spent...you are from Ukraine, very few ordinary citizens of the USA have that same tie that you have and therefore have different priorities.


Fathertime!

Wrong.  I am not from Ukraine.  As I have posted previously, I am Canadian born, as are my parents, and 2 of my grandparents.  One of my grandfathers was born in Boston, raised in Canada, and considered himself Canadian.  Even 6 of my great grandparents were Canadian born.

[lordtiberius]

What does peace look like FT?  Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine?  Has Russia invaded?  Who shot down MH 17?

Hey, FT hypothetical, when you see someone getting beaten and raped, do you shrug and say not my fight?  Is neutrality worthy of praise?  Tell us, FT.

[fathertime]

Wrong.  I am not from Ukraine.  As I have posted previously, I am Canadian born, as are my parents, and 2 of my grandparents.  One of my grandfathers was born in Boston, raised in Canada, and considered himself Canadian.  Even 6 of my great grandparents were Canadian born.

I think the point remains that you have a much greater interest in Ukraine then the average citizen therefore you are more willing to use tax dollars to Ukraine.

What does peace look like FT?  Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine?  Has Russia invaded?  Who shot down MH 17?

Hey, FT hypothetical, when you see someone getting beaten and raped, do you shrug and say not my fight?  Is neutrality worthy of praise?  Tell us, FT.

You seem to have the same silly questions for practically everybody.  If you don't know the answers to your questions, then look them up, this is old ground.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

I think the point remains that you have a much greater interest in Ukraine then the average citizen therefore you are more willing to use tax dollars to Ukraine.

No, I would have the same response for Rwanda, or Argentina, or Bosnia.  It is not the country that is at issue.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Nope.  Wrong again.

A successfully run business always has a charitable wing to it.  We donate to many worthy causes here in the US.  We also donate to those who are less fortunate in other countries. 

As for laziness, I grew up in the Midwest.  We were hardworking and upstanding people.  I cannot understand that work ethic that pervades Southern California.  But I do say this: I was surprised at the pushback from you, LFU.  I would think you would be one of the first on the bandwagon hoping to give the people who welcomed you in their country a hand up in their time of crisis.

Tell me, when is the last time you helped a street person - or volunteered your time for something that was not self serving?  I hope it was quite recent because I don't see you as a self serving sociopath.  I see you as someone who stands up for what he believes in.

Didn't we just talk about pushback when making blanket statements?  You just got some pushback on your blanket beer guzzling statement.


 I'm from the midwest as well.  While there are a lot of beer drinkers there, they are also hard working blue collar people who just want a good life.  Some may be riding the system but that isn't he majority.  Most just want to work and feel pride for being able to take care of their families. 

Unfortunately those types of jobs are dwindling and will continue to do so.


As for tax money, I never said anything about what we should be doing.  If asking, I rather see some of tax money go towards helping others unless it means raising them in order to afford so.  Meaning if we had a surplus. 


The problem we have is spending, spending, spending...  and the line must be drawn even if painful.  Raising gas taxes to afford road repairs (besides the 18 trillion deficit) tells me we don't have extra money to help.  We have a lot of things that can be done domestically before we send money overseas.  Take care of local stuff first, then help others further out has always been my opinion.


You need to take care of yourself first and foremost.  You won't be able to help anyone if you don't.


Ukraine has a special place in my heart like many here, but there are a lot of places that could use help.  We give a lot already.

I won't be rattling off whom and what I do for charitable work.  Charitable work is good for the soul and I recommend it to anyone capable of spending extra time or money to do so.  No one is stopping you and others here from dedicating their time and money to go to Ukraine and help rebuild.  I will be thinking about that myself when peace, in the area, comes.

[JayH]

US lawmakers urged to provide weapons for Ukraine

US Senate's Armed Services Committee discusses response to Russian invasion of Ukraine

Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as US National Security Adivsor under Jimmy Carter, has appealed to American lawmakers to provide weapons to Ukraine. He made the plea during a meeting of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which was discussing Russian aggression towrard Ukraine.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Political scientist: "My hope is that your deliberations will shape a bipartisan national security strategy. Such bipartisanship is badly needed, and I think we all know
http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/former-us-security-advisor-urges-lawmakers-to-provide-weapons-to-ukraine-404478.html

[Steamer]

US lawmakers urged to provide weapons for Ukraine

US Senate's Armed Services Committee discusses response to Russian invasion of Ukraine

Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as US National Security Adivsor under Jimmy Carter, has appealed to American lawmakers to provide weapons to Ukraine. He made the plea during a meeting of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which was discussing Russian aggression towrard Ukraine.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Political scientist: "My hope is that your deliberations will shape a bipartisan national security strategy. Such bipartisanship is badly needed, and I think we all know
http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/former-us-security-advisor-urges-lawmakers-to-provide-weapons-to-ukraine-404478.html

Where have I heard that name before?

[JayH]

Where have I heard that name before?

The one consistent piece of stupidity all these pro-Russian apologists persist with is in not reading what is written--or read links provided-- so the answer is-- der,duh -in the post above!! -- Quote "Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as US National Security Adivsor under Jimmy Carter"

[lordtiberius]

Steamer, if you don't know who Zbig is keep it to yourself or google it.  You seem like a nice guy just not very informed.

What does peace look like FT?  Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine?  Has Russia invaded?  Who shot down MH 17?

Hey, FT hypothetical, when you see someone getting beaten and raped, do you shrug and say not my fight?  Is neutrality worthy of praise?  Tell us, FT

[mendeleyev]

FT, forgive my hazy memory, but was Neville Chamberlain your grandfather, or was he your great-Uncle?

I am going to repeat something that you obviously do not have (yet) the capacity to understand:

- Mr. Putin does not want a piece of Ukraine in exchange for peace. His hopes of building Russia into something other than a Siberian gas filling station is dependent upon having Ukraine's vast agriculture and educated workforce as part of the Eurasian Union. Without that, his trading bloc is a small limp penis in a world of big Dicks. Simple as that.

- He will take a sliver and slice for now, as long as the West breathes a sigh of relief and then cancels the sanctions. He is a patient man, and understands that the Neville Chamberlains of this world are incredibly stupid and will never learn. Because he takes the long view, he will come back for more--until someone has the balls to make him stop.

Whoever and whatever makes him stop will not be Neville Chamberlain, just in case you are wondering.


Now, in some ways you and I are one the same page in this one respect: we understand that Putin has painted himself into a corner and needs an "out" of this mess. Giving him territory that belongs to someone else is not that recipe for peace (see the above). In fact, it would be the height of stupidity.

I was around when he desperately wanted entry into the WTO. The World Trade Organization represented a prize for Russia, and the WTO relaxed regulations regarding protectionism and competition in order to let Russia in. This process started in 1993. Iceland, a member of NATO, got the process started. The Russian Federation entered the WTO in August of 2012. Behind the scenes, a lot of "carrots" were used, especially by the USA, to make it happen. During the first term of George W. Bush, the US, with the help of the UK, had to win the support of several WTO members, notably France and Germany, in order to keep the process moving forward.

Of the things that Russia needs now, several of the most pressing issues include development of Arctic resources, the Eurasian Union, and the loss of credit markets due to targeted credit sanctions.

The West might do well to consider partnerships in the Arctic (some were already in the works prior to the annexation of Crimea) without giving up legitimate claims there, to aid Russia. The West can have dramatic impact on not only reducing exploration time, but in streamlining and making such work efficient. The easing of credit would come with the removal of sanctions, and so the hard part is the Eurasian Union. I understand that you have yet to comprehend this, but the current struggle over Ukraine is not over some coal miners who mistakenly believed false rumours that the Russian language would be taken away from them; rather the real issue is Ukraine's desire to turn toward a more Western way of life, and the hard reality is that presently it means opting out of the Eurasian Union.

We both know that the EU really does not need another financial drain by a weak and new member. The long term benefits would be there, but would take years to cultivate. We must also understand that the people of Ukraine likely do not want to be a part of the EU as much as they long for the economic and political transparency, rule of law, and economic equality that is just not available by staying in the shadow of a corrupt neighbor. Positive changes in Russia would, I believe, cause Ukrainians to perhaps give the Eurasian Union a chance, provided a clear mechanism for withdrawal from the union should Russia lurch backward. (Kazakhstan and Belarus have such mechanisms in their membership with the union already.) Those positive changes, however, are not near and dear to Mr. Putin's worldview.

We can give Putin some territory today, and nothing will have changed. And, be sure, he will come for more next week. That is the game he understands. To give him that would be indescribably stupid.

It would be easy, in the short term, to sacrifice Ukraine and let him take whatever he wants. Unfortunately, we'd soon discover that Ukraine is not all that he wants. As just one example, Poland is not uneasy because Pole's have different recipes for borsch, no, Poles have unease because of Russian history.

Another option is that we proceed ahead to WWIII, and possibly turn the clock back to 1918, or worse, while suffering tremendous loss of life.

The real hard work is finding a carrot and a solution. The carrot is for a certain KGB Colonel. The solution would be for good and decent Ukrainian people, who deserve better than simply being thrown back to the same old wolf.

Can we find the right carrot, and the right solution?

I do not yet know.

[Steamer]

You guys don't recognize sarcasm.
I wrote about him yesterday and his book "The Grand Chess Game". It's about why the new front in the war against Russia is Eastern Europe. He urges constant action with the grand prize being Ukraine. I listened to him give a speech on this very subject about 10 years ago.
LT- you should try to read some books. Books good...Hulk likes books

[LiveFromUkraine]

You guys don't recognize sarcasm.
I wrote about him yesterday and his book "The Grand Chess Game". It's about why the new front in the war against Russia is Eastern Europe. He urges constant action with the grand prize being Ukraine. I listened to him give a speech on this very subject about 10 years ago.
LT- you should try to read some books. Books good...Hulk likes books

lol  Hilarious.  Steamer, JayH posts articles.  He isn't so much for reading other points of views. He is more of a call everyone ignorant and post yahoo stories type of guy.


 LT, well, he is LT and more interested in men's sex lives.  Great entertainment though.  A+

[lordtiberius]

Steamer, how do you want it?  Gloves on or off?

lFU, I didn't know you had a sex life.  I do want to invite you to go fornicate yourself.

Mendeleyev, correct me if I am wrong, but Putin is a bully.  Bullies understand one thing a hard line.  We have yet to draw one.  We are on the edge of World War because the degree of miscalculation is so high. 

There is a rumor that Igor Girkin told his men to approach but do not invade Mariupol.  He feared it would be a bloodbath.  The Russians took Grozny in the second Chechen war after seven months of seige with air and artillery assets in place.  Russia can seize Mariupol but it would have to abandon its hybrid war strategy.  It doesn't have enough troops to bypass Mariupol.

[JayH]

Mendeleyev, correct me if I am wrong, but Putin is a bully.  Bullies understand one thing a hard line.  We have yet to draw one.  We are on the edge of World War because the degree of miscalculation is so high. 

There is a rumor that Igor Girkin told his men to approach but do not invade Mariupol.  He feared it would be a bloodbath.  The Russians took Grozny in the second Chechen war after seven months of seige with air and artillery assets in place.  Russia can seize Mariupol but it would have to abandon its hybrid war strategy.  It doesn't have enough troops to bypass Mariupol.

My hope today is that this is a clear cut Russian attack on a civilian city--  no shades to divert blame-- and that as a result the real life humanitarian crisis unfolding will jump start the west into action.

fwiw-Ukrainians say that defences are good of the city. As a starter-- they say that they were able to destroy the particular sources of that attack on Mauripol yesterday. The ability for artillery to target so accurately is a result of defensive tech already supplied--what they now need is the ability to target so accurately prior to those weapons being used.

[lordtiberius]

The demise of Ukraine will mean the end of NATO and the EU.  Who would want to join a group that is so morally debased?

O BTW, that Mogherini woman wants to relax sanctions with Russia.

[JayH]

lol  Hilarious.  Steamer, JayH posts articles.  He isn't so much for reading other points of views. He is more of a call everyone ignorant and post yahoo stories type of guy.

I post articles and links in the hope heathens like you  might actually learn something form the 97% who are expressing opinions and factual stories that you and others are in denial about- and is supporting evidence of many of my own conclusions.
Sure beats trying to tell the world that black is white!

[Steamer]

Steamer, how do you want it?  Gloves on or off?

WWJD ?

[fathertime]

I post articles and links in the hope heathens like you  might actually learn something form the 97% who are expressing opinions and factual stories that you and others are in denial about- and is supporting evidence of many of my own conclusions.
Sure beats trying to tell the world that black is white!

Heathens?  hahah now you sound like a hysterical aunt Esther.