PreNups, Trusts, Offshore Accounts & Protecting yourself

[TigerPaws]

 To start this thread off I have copied over a post from another topic as well as adding some additional thoughts, while I am not an attorney I have had considerable experience with prenups, trusts as well as offshore accounts in an effort to protect my assets should a marrage go wrong:

 A prenup is but one arrow in a man's quiver and having one has nothing to do with commitment to a relationship. Premarital contracts are very common when one or both people getting married have something to loose. My lady fully understood what was in our premarital contract before we filed for the K1. I made very sure to have the contract translated into Russian and reviewed by a respected Russian legal firm in Moscow , my lady was free to speak with the attorneys and ask any questions so there could be no question she understood the terms of the contract.

 Is this kind of thing romantic? No, but if a man has amassed a sizeable fortune or anything else he cares about then a premarital contract is necessity in todays world as are protected trusts and offshore accounts. Of course if you have nothing to loose or are the foolish trusting soul then you take your chances, as for me I have too much to loose to take chances anymore.

[Dave_home]

 What Does a Pre-nup "Really Say" about a Man's Committment?

As for me I would NEVER do any pre-nuptial agreement! I believe actions speak louder than words, and I think most RW do too! Which makes me wonder what they really think about pre-nups? 

Messages I think a pre-nup conveys to RW....or any woman.
   " I Love you more than ANYTHING! ........ well,  almost anything :- ) "
 

"Marriage is a gamble, and my fiancé' is worth gambling it all...well not quite all of it. :- ) "
  "Today at our marriage we join together and become one! ...... except
all my pre-martial possessions! They wait for me in case our marriage
fails :- ) "   
 " Husband, are you really committed to this marriage?" >" Of course! but don't worry, If I change my mind..... this pre-nup will protect me! "

"Marriage is a "big" step, It's a big risk!... "Naww not really, "I have a pre-nup!"

What is more important to a man,  his fortune, or his wife? A pre-nup answers this question Loud and Clear :-)   .....can't he see his wife as his most prized fortune?, .....not with a pre-nup.
  As you can see I  see pre-nups as a detriment to every marriage!, except
if the marriage fails then the man is brilliant! but if it doesn't fail,
how happy is it with a pre-nup? The pre-nup will always "stick' in the back of her mind even if she don't admit it.  It speaks a lack of confidence in the
success of the marriage. And EVERY woman I've talked to thinks so IF I had
millions to my name,  I'd like to  believe  my fiancé' is worth gambling it all on!  .       Dave

ps. Did I mention pre-nups take a "love union" and turn it into a "business arrangement?... good potential to suck the Love right out of a marriage when the first signs of trouble begin.

[BC]

I guess a lot depends on the laws of the state you live in.  If you were very well off and it was an automatic 50/50 state then maybe.  I've heard that there are many ways to contest prenups anyway.  Any agreement is a two way street so I would think a (fair) prenup would also protect her rights (which should at least meet the standards of the laws of that state or country). I'm not a lawyer but it seems not meeting the requirements of state laws might be viewed as an unfair agreement.  who knows..

In any case even with prenups those 'offshore accounts' would likely be quite interesting to the IRS if they were mentioned in a public record like divorce proceedings

[anono]

a sizeable fortune 

[/size][/color][/font]

hey tigerpaws..  you have many friends? need any?  um, i real nice guy, fun to party with. have only a few or no heirs, i mean relatives?

need anyone to talk to about R/UW??

i'm a good listener, give advice only if asked....

just teasing you dude

[Donna_Pedro]

 ----My lady fully understood what was in our premarital contract before we filed for the K1

----- But how do you know that she is happy with it?
It looks like she agreed to it, but, I assume, you made it clear that there would be no marriage without a pre-nup.

Anyway, its certainly your right, and, as I said in another topic, I would prefer to know this requirement  right from the first introductory letter so I could  dump it into a trash can and forget about it. If I had to waste a least a week of my time before I get to learn this fact I would be very angry and make sure my correspondent knows about it.

[TigerPaws]

Dave,

 If you have nothig to loose then it dose not matter, on the other hand if you have a considerable amount of property, money and other resources at risk it is only prudent to do what ever you can to protect yourself against a possible problem in the future. You speak of love that you feel placing personal property above a commitment is a bad thing. Well if that is what you belief and you are willing to place at risk anything and everything you have that is your decision but some of us have a great deal to loose and just like taking out health, fire or flood insurance a man needs to protect himself.

 Like I said "a prenup is but one arrow in a man's quiver" there are other things a man can do depending on your needs, wants and desires. As for myself, I use a layered protection system beginning with a prenup, then sheltering some of my assets within a trust through offshore shell companies. The bulk of my available cash assets are kept in a series of numbered bank accounts in the Principality of Monaco, I even have a Visa card issued through one of the banks in Monaco. My wife and I also have several joint U.S. bank accounts which she has full and complete access to as she should have. What we do not share is ownership of our homes, various poperties and investments, they are owned by the varoius trusts and as such are completly protected should we ever divorce. That said I have made provisions for my wife in case of my untimely demise.

 Like it or not Dave marrage is by definition a contract and as in any contract the devil is in the details, it may not be romantic but as I said if you have property, money and other resources at risk it is only prudent to do what ever you can to protect yourself against a possible problem in the future.

[TigerPaws]

Donna,

 Yes my lady was very aware that wihout a prenup there would be no marrage, like anything else in life it is how the informaton is presented. Once she fully understood what I was talking about and what it meant for her then she had no objections.

 

[anono]

If you have nothig to loose then it dose not matter

it ain't all bad being broke

[Dave_home]

 Let's look at it in a way you refuse to abandon...... Some of the "richest men" in the world got their riches by risking everything they had to get it.  If material possessions which can be replaced are worth risking everything a man has, then why isn't a wife, who is supposedly one of the richest sources of happiness a man can have isn't worth risking it all on?  A treasure who maybe can Never be replaced.  Like I said,  this is your individual choice, but please don't suggest other men take this narrow-minded and selfish path towards marriage, it's not fair to suggest them to risk losing a far more valualbe treasure than silver and gold. For some of us  our happiness has no dollar value.  Dave

[Frank]

[user=101]Dave_home[/user] wrote:

I agree 100% with you Dave.  To me, if a guy feels he needs a pre-nup, he is not 110% sure in his relationship.  If a guy is going to marry one of these ladies, giver her some respect and let her participate in the relationship as an equal.  Otherwise, stay the heck away from these women.  Most of them are very good I think and deserve more than some guys are willing  to give.  I have a business and lots to lose.  When I am married, my wife will be my partner in it all.  I am willing to take the chance because I know she has good character, shares the same values and wants the same things in life.  And yes, I will let her think for herself.  I'm not a control freak!!  If you all will let your wives participate in everything, you might find they are an asset.  Frank 

[Bruce]

This is a very contentious issue amongst guys.  I agree with Tigerpaws 100% and I'll leave it at that. 

[BC]

This is a very contentious issue amongst guys.  I agree with Tigerpaws 100% and I'll leave it at that.  

Nothing wrong with being contentious.. It's good to see different and conflicting views. I'm sure threads like these won't give "THE" answer but at least it provokes a bit of thought.  Much better than wandering around blindfolded.

[Donna_Pedro]

----- like anything else in life it is how the informaton is presented.

-----I am sorry, hon, I am no child, I am  a big girl, and I can see things I dont like if even you decorate them nicely and serve them to me on a golden dish. I can see bs even it does not smell like one But I d rather skip this discussion, or its not going to end up  peacefull (as it did many times before)  -  I have low tolerance to bs and a very hot temper (walking away).    

[TigerPaws]

Dave,

 You are course more than welcome to you opinion and in a perfect world it wold be wonderful to be able to trust people but we live in the real world where people will do anything possible to take what is yours. It is very obvious that you are willing to loose anything and everything in the hope that love will see you through but not everyone is willing to do that. Speaking from experience, love and trust are no substitute for a good contract and additional protections when things go terribly wrong.

 If you truly knew anything about how to become wealthy then you would know it is all about risk management, maximize the profit at the least possible risk and insure the rest. A prenup, trusts and offshore accounts are nothing more than insurance not just for a divorce but for everyday life. Any number of things could happen and you could be suied for far more than what your net worth is with multiple judgements you may not be able to discharge in a bankruptcy. You could loose everything but with the proper protections in place you could forget those worries, prenups trusts and offshore acounts have been in use by the wealthy for a very long time for a good reason, they work.

 You don't have to like it but then again you are willing to risk your enitre future, I and many others are not, that dose not make you right and me wrong or me right and you wrong only different and what is wrong with that?

"What do they say planning for failure does? When you get a pre-nup aren't you planning for failure?" I gather then Dave you do not have health, fire or anyother type of insurance because that would be "planning for failure"?

 I suggest Dave that it is your narrow-mind that refuses to see that offering a suggestion as I have done is nothing more than opening a dialog into other possibilities which some besides yourself might find useful.

 

 

[Dave_home]

Dave,

 You are course more than welcome to you opinion and in a perfect world it wold be wonderful to be able to trust people but we live in the real world where people will do anything possible to take what is yours. It is very obvious that you are willing to loose anything and everything in the hope that love will see you through but not everyone is willing to do that. Speaking from experience, love and trust are no substitute for a good contract and additional protections when things go terribly wrong.

 If you truly knew anything about how to become wealthy then you would know it is all about risk management, maximize the profit at the least possible risk and insure the rest. A prenup, trusts and offshore accounts are nothing more than insurance not just for a divorce but for everyday life. Any number of things could happen and you could be suied for far more than what your net worth is with multiple judgements you may not be able to discharge in a bankruptcy. You could loose everything but with the proper protections in place you could forget those worries, prenups trusts and offshore acounts have been in use by the wealthy for a very long time for a good reason, they work.

 You don't have to like it but then again you are willing to risk your enitre future, I and many others are not, that dose not make you right and me wrong or me right and you wrong only different and what is wrong with that?

"What do they say planning for failure does? When you get a pre-nup aren't you planning for failure?" I gather then Dave you do not have health, fire or anyother type of insurance because that would be "planning for failure"?

Ah,  I see you want to compare apples to oranges? apples being the assets, or property you insure to recover the loss of due to natural disasters,  oranges being the wife, and marriage you want to insure with a pre-nup to recover from the loss of  NOT due to natural disasters, but intangeble ones of the heart.  Is your wife, or marriage property you insure? I don't think so, and fortunately most people in America don't think so either, and yes even the very wealthy ones who have a lot to lose,   they don't see their wives, or marriages as property,  we see them as MORE valuable than mere property, something worth risking all that we have for happiness.  Like Donna pointed out:  she's not a little girl , she can tell bs no matter how you present it... why would women be any less clever than us? are they mindless fish that you can "present" the bait (pre-nup) to with just the right amount of wiggle to entice them to bite? It just doesn't seem fair that these women are willing to risk all that they have (even though it may be less then her man at the time of marriage) to share their lives with a husband without a pre-nup, and we men aren't?   You still see marriage as a business deal and I can't help that, it's your choice, but even you have admitted in a perfect world a pre-nup wouldn't be necessary,... well it's still not necessary in many many marriages that work.  Judging from what you wrote above here , it is apparant you reject all points that I make about proper marriage etiquiete. My belief is more towards the "ideal" marrriage circumstance we should all strive to have, your view obviously is the less than ideal marriage circumstance that doesn't rely on the love and trust in marriage.   It is like: comdoms prevent pregnancy, but abstinance prevents it better. :-)     Dave

 

[BC]

Really thinking about it, prenup or no prenup if a marriage does go sour it's all decided in court anyway.  If the guy   is really wealthy and the agreement was not more than generous (in western terms) she would have the best lawyers available lined up on her doorstep begging for her business. No one with a reasonable mind sues someone who literally has little or nothing to loose, but many will try to sue someone who has.

I get the feeling some may think prenups are lopsided or favor one party, but for some reason I don't think it works quite that way..  I think many men and women might even be quite jealous of an ex Ms. Tiger.. or is it Paws?

I guess the theme is sort of like having/not having a will.  Having a will gives your property to who you want (but can be contested in court).  Not having a will can lead to a family feud that never ends.

I can imagine it's a tough concept for anyone to understand (took me a while to think it through) not just a RW.

I feel quite lucky we did not need a prenup. There's million and ONE better thing I'd rather be doing with my wife than haggling for endless hours with a bunch of legal beagles. My time together with her is priceless. anono - you are absolutely correct!!





 

[TigerPaws]

Gentleman,

 Like I said a prenup is but one of several ways a man can protect himself not the only way, it takes several layers of protection to do the job right. A court can only attach or go after assets which it has access to which is why there are such things a protected trusts and offshore accounts in countries that will not play ball with the U.S. legal system. People of means have long used these methoids to protect themselves and they are well proven, just because you do not agree with their use dose not mean they are not valuable tools for others. In my csae they saved me a great deal of money after my divorce from an AW, she got little of nothing yet I retained the wealth I have earned. It dose not matter if you think it is right or wrong the tools are in place so that a man can protect himself should he choose to do so, the choice is yours.

 I am sorry to say that when it comes to money and assets there is little room for romance if you want to keep what is yours. Dave and BC you should do a bit more reading on the subject and consult knowledgeable legal counsel before dismissing the protections that things like prenups, protected trusts and offshore accounts offer because it is obvious you know nothing about them. Maybe when you grow up and have something worth loosing you will learn that many others want and will try to take it away from you what you have worked hard for unless you take steps to protect yourself.

 

[BC]

Tiger,

I was trying to reason along your lines when I posted. It's just that in my situation prenup was neither desired or necessary. No reading up or legal assistance required.

Quote:
In my csae they saved me a great deal of money after my divorce from an AW, she got little of nothing yet I retained the wealth I have earned.

This the case with your RW also?

[Albert]

Quite amazing the things we can read here that are written by supposed adults.

It reminds me of watching conversations where parents are trying to reason with young children.

 

[BC]

Quite amazing the things we can read here that are written by supposed adults.

Guess we never really grow up do we..

It's sort of like two people looking at each other through an aquarium..

"The fish is swimming to the right"

"Wrong.. the fish is swimming left"

Both are quite correct from their perspective.

[TigerPaws]

BC,

 While my relationship with my RW is great and in fact better than when we first met, the same protections are in place today as they were when I married my AW over 30 years ago, updated and improved of course. My RW is very aware of protections I have in place and why they are there, she understands and accepts the reasons I have these protections in place. She is also aware that I have built in a great deal of protection for her and our daughter should something happen to me.

[BC]

TigerPaws,

Over here the wife basically 'accrues' her share of gained net worth from when the marriage began. She gets a form of alimony support of which the amount depends on whether or not she is employed and how much she makes.  Kids get a fixed amount of support depending on your income. ( all the above assuming the husband makes more than the wife). Accrued retirement from both are prorated for the length of time the marriage existed. Custody of kids is shared unless abuse is proven. All quite reasonable IMHO.

To be honest with you I have never seen a prenup and don't need one, partly because I am not really wealthy and due to the fact that the legal system is still quite 'reasonable' here. (That's why Boris Beckers wife moved to Florida and established residency there.. so she could file for divorce in the 'free for all' courts in the US instead of in Europe)

I am curious though and wonder if prenups usually contain similar conditions as I listed above.  Not looking for specifics, but just want to understand better how the 'lesser partner'(bad term I know but can't think of a better one) is usually treated in these agreements.

Any insight is appreciated..

[TigerPaws]

BC,

 A prenup is nothing more than a contract where the two people can specify any number of things, really the sky is the limit. That said you are also right about the courts and how they see the division of assets, but like I have been trying to say a prenup is but one tool of many to use in protecting yourself. If you want a greater level of protection you will have to put into place additional safegurds before you get married such as setting up various trusts and moving your property into one or more of those. If you have property and investments you can move those into trusts as well as direct ownership offshore to a shell corporation.

 Most people have a difficult time understanding the difference between ownership and control. For instance I do not directly own my airplanes, an offshore corporation owns them but I control the corporation therefore I can do as I please with them, yet I am protected should an incident occur which would leave me liable for monetary damages. The same is true if a marrage goes wrong, if you do not directly own anything within the jurisdiction of the court then there is nothing for a court to attach or seize.

[BC]

Understood.. yes. basically keeping assets 'untouchable' even from a contested prenup (and of course everyone  else in that long line that wants to sue you)

Hey! Brilliant idea! Just move you and your family offshore. I'm sure y'all would love Italy!  ..just poking at ya

[Goombah]

Hard to do when the bulk of your assets were in your house, pension, and company 401K plan.  I just lost half, and have a crushing child-support and alimony payment - taking virtually all the joy out of my life.  I now work to make these payments, and to try and hold onto my house and car.  Discretionary funds have basically dried up, with the exception that I'll continue to fund my quest for a new wife - otherwise there would be little left to live for.  Having to sell assets to cover deficit monthly spending.

Oh, divorced an AW in Missouri and the judge used me to make a point to my lawyer ("Told you he should have settled...").

Kevin C.