Minimum Wage debate - USA

[Shadow]

Taxing to prosperity? Yep, I would like to propose the Dutch tax model here.
Income tax varies from 35% to 70% based on income. On top of that there is the capital gain tax of 30%, value added tax op 21% and taxes on tobacco and gas that by fax exceed the cost price of the product.

What has this brought?
- State pension that is equal to the minimum wage for all inhabitants
- social security that allows those without means a survivable amount of money
- extensive public transport, good maintance of public infrastructure
- a collective paid health insurance going much further as Obamacare.

Only when some of these things have been "privatised" they start to deteriorate.

Our taxes are high, but our prosperity is as well.

[fathertime]

Hi Kettle!

I made my point.  My point is that minimum wage laws always hurt the poor as do income taxes.

the
If these are your two take away points I believe you are dead wrong on both counts. 


1.  Minimum wage laws are a good thing, without them you can bet your boots people would be earning less, probably far less.


2.  Income taxes currently favor the working poor...the vast majority pay 0 in federal and state income taxes..and actually get the EIC tax credit.

  You protest because I have flavored my argument with humor, something you are a failure at.

[/size][size=78%] [/size]

[/size]I do not protest with your efforts at humor (when you make them)...it would be very easy for me to put up silly pictures of babies crying or continue with wise cracks every post if I chose to...[size=78%]

I just figured your efforts were  an effort to make yourself happy....you are free to do that obviously....why would I have to protest that?


Fathertime! 

[Muzh]

Just out of curiosity, I don't understand what all the beef of minimum wage is. What sort of a threat is it to society that working people are able to earn a wage that they are able to be self sufficient and not require any entitlements?
Maybe the minimum wage should be quite a bit higher and if people don't agree then they can cut their own grass and make their own hamburgers.

Because many here live under the false impression that the majority asking for an increase in the minimum wage are, well, er..., different, like minorities. Therefore, they are a bunch (47% of them) of moochers to the system.


You have to go back to our short history to understand the demagoguery. First were the micks, then the gumbas, then the negroes, and now the hispanics. All scapegoats to our own social inequalities.


Seriously, ask anyone living in the US who actually mooches the most food stamps and immediately the crowd will roar them Nigrs or them Spics when in reality it is them white trash. Percentage-wise, by a lot.


Fcuked up situation I tell you.

[lordtiberius]

the
If these are your two take away points I believe you are dead wrong on both counts. 


1.  Minimum wage laws are a good thing, without them you can bet your boots people would be earning less, probably far less.


2.  Income taxes currently favor the working poor...the vast majority pay 0 in federal and state income taxes..and actually get the EIC tax credit.


[/size][size=78%] [/size]

[/size]I do not protest with your efforts at humor (when you make them)...it would be very easy for me to put up silly pictures of babies crying or continue with wise cracks every post if I chose to...[size=78%]

I just figured your efforts were  an effort to make yourself happy....you are free to do that obviously....why would I have to protest that?


Fathertime!

How do income taxes help the working poor?

How do minimum wage laws create jobs?

[Muzh]

Only 10% of minimum wage earners are who you describe.  Raising the minimum wage hurts workers by further limiting the number of jobs available.  No one is forcing these people at gun point to work.  Stuff we already covered up thread.

LMFAO


Yeah, right.


My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.


Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.


However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.


Guess what? Bye bye.


I'm pretty sure there will be another sap waiting for someone to quit so he will be abused until can't take it any longer and the cycle repeats.


Yep, work hard until you die of exhaustion. Just like the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan when life was so easy. Work 12 hour workdays for pennies and die on the job just to be replace by another bastard willing to die for pennies a day.

[Muzh]

Taxing to prosperity? Yep, I would like to propose the Dutch tax model here.
Income tax varies from 35% to 70% based on income. On top of that there is the capital gain tax of 30%, value added tax op 21% and taxes on tobacco and gas that by fax exceed the cost price of the product.

What has this brought?
- State pension that is equal to the minimum wage for all inhabitants
- social security that allows those without means a survivable amount of money
- extensive public transport, good maintance of public infrastructure
- a collective paid health insurance going much further as Obamacare.

Only when some of these things have been "privatised" they start to deteriorate.

Our taxes are high, but our prosperity is as well.

Hey, you forgot the forced (GASP!!!) month-long paid vacation for everyone. 

[lordtiberius]

LMFAO


Yeah, right.


My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.


Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.


However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.


Guess what? Bye bye.


I'm pretty sure there will be another sap waiting for someone to quit so he will be abused until can't take it any longer and the cycle repeats.


Yep, work hard until you die of exhaustion. Just like the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan when life was so easy. Work 12 hour workdays for pennies and die on the job just to be replace by another bastard willing to die for pennies a day.

What you describe is purely speculative and operates under assumptions of scarcity not optimism.

[AC]

LMFAO


Yeah, right.


My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.


Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.


However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.


Guess what? Bye bye.


I'm pretty sure there will be another sap waiting for someone to quit so he will be abused until can't take it any longer and the cycle repeats.


Yep, work hard until you die of exhaustion. Just like the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and JP Morgan when life was so easy. Work 12 hour workdays for pennies and die on the job just to be replace by another bastard willing to die for pennies a day.

So by your own admission your son got fired for assaulting his supervisor.  It might be interesting to hear the other side of the story.

[Muzh]

So by your own admission your son got fired for assaulting his supervisor.  It might be interesting to hear the other side of the story.

You definitely need reading glasses. Read the part again where I state: ...he calmly told him that he quit.


So what would you suggest? Follow your example?





Edit: From the Urban Dictionary


BOHICA



acronym, although pronounced as if it is a single word, for "Bend over! Here it comes again."


Commonly used around the workplace when getting repeatedly fucked by the work center supervisor. Very commonly used within the military, specifically the navy and FFG-22.
 


Bill Lumburgh asking Peter Gibbons to work on Saturday is a perfect example of getting fucked by the supervisor.

Lumbergh asking Peter to come in on Sunday is even more fucked up. Peter should have yelled "BOHICA!" and walked out of the office.

[calmissile]

Muzh,

I am a little surprised at your UPS story.  UPS always has paid very well and had great benefits.  MY sister worked for them for many years and never said anything bad about them.

You indicated you son broke his supervisors finger.  If true, he should have been fired!  If you were joking, then perhaps not.

I was under the impression that UPS was unionized.  IF this is correct, he should have gone to his shop steward and complained about compulsory overtime.  As a last resort, he could he could have gone up the ladder above his immediate supervisor and discussed the issue and requested relief.

Something sounds fishy about a company that can fire you for not putting in unreasonable overtime.  I have the same issues with my employees.  I accommodate them whenever possible, but once in a while it is necessary to work on  a Saturday or a 10 hour shift during the week.  It would be interesting what the union contract says.  Also what your sons relationship with the union steward is.

[Muzh]

Muzh,

I am a little surprised at your UPS story.  UPS always has paid very well and had great benefits.  MY sister worked for them for many years and never said anything bad about them.

You indicated you son broke his supervisors finger.  If true, he should have been fired!  If you were joking, then perhaps not.

I was under the impression that UPS was unionized.  IF this is correct, he should have gone to his shop steward and complained about compulsory overtime.  As a last resort, he could he could have gone up the ladder above his immediate supervisor and discussed the issue and requested relief.

Something sounds fishy about a company that can fire you for not putting in unreasonable overtime.  I have the same issues with my employees.  I accommodate them whenever possible, but once in a while it is necessary to work on  a Saturday or a 10 hour shift during the week.  It would be interesting what the union contract says.  Also what your sons relationship with the union steward is.

Cal,


I said that UPS paid him well and he had great benefits. However, that was not the problem.


Yes, they were asking for unreasonable overtime and he has no clue if there is a union there or not.


And I talked to my son about an hour ago. The finger was not broken, just sprained. He said he learned that in training.


Now, imagine one of your favorites from here talking to you and then starts poking you in the chest with his finger.

[AC]

LMFAO


Yeah, right.


My son came in yesterday and said he quit his job at UPS and going back to school. I was surprised because after turning blue in the face trying to convince him to take advantage of the GI Bill so he could finish his college education, he convincingly stated the reasons why he would just find a good paying job, like UPS.


Well, yes, UPS offers good pay and benefits.


However, he was confronted with reality. He started gung-ho and was elated he was making so much in over-time. After a few months of 7:30 am til 10:00 pm workdays and 8 til 6 Saturdays he started to feel it. Not to mention that the corporate dudes were demanding more and more time out of him. To make things even more interesting, a recent college graduate about 2 or 3 years older than him was his supervisor and was a real toady about what corporate wants, corporate gets. Last Friday he was looking forward to some well deserved time off to spend with GF when toady demanded he showed up early on Saturday for work. This is after a 65 hour work-week. He plainly told toady to find someone else because he wanted a little rest. "Well, if you don't fucking show up tomorrow, you are fired," while poking his finger on my son's chest. Boy, that's the last thing you want to do to him. After breaking toady's index finger, he calmly told him that he quit. Toady's supervisor called him and asked him what happened. So he told him what an inept supervisor toady is and that he was being overworked.


Guess what? Bye bye.

Sprained or broken, you already wrote that your son assaulted his supervisor.  Having comprehension problems regarding what you just wrote?

Then the next day your son hopes to keep his job by "explaining" what happened to another higher up supervisor.  Obviously no private company is going to keep a hothead who assaults a co-worker or supervisor.

As Calmissile just mentioned UPS is one of the better companies to work for, and with a union.  It's really not that difficult to turn down too much overtime work, there is a procedure for that.  It's also not that difficult to ignore a provocation and make a complaint to the union about an aggressive and abusive supervisor.  Had your son been patient the supervisor is the one who may have lost his job.  Chances are the supervisor correctly predicted your son to be a hothead and provoked him.  That's either a character builder or a bad reference waiting to happen.  Surprised you haven't (yet) blamed it on "whitey".

[Muzh]

Sprained or broken, you already wrote that your son assaulted his supervisor.  Having comprehension problems regarding what you just wrote?

Then the next day your son hopes to keep his job by "explaining" what happened to another higher up supervisor.  Obviously no private company is going to keep a hothead who assaults a co-worker or supervisor.

As Calmissile just mentioned UPS is one of the better companies to work for, and with a union.  It's really not that difficult to turn down too much overtime work, there is a procedure for that.  It's also not that difficult to ignore a provocation and make a complaint to the union about an aggressive and abusive supervisor.  Had your son been patient the supervisor is the one who may have lost his job.  Chances are the supervisor correctly predicted your son to be a hothead and provoked him.  That's either a character builder or a bad reference waiting to happen.  Surprised you haven't (yet) blamed it on "whitey".

Yep, you like BOHICA.


Can't help you there if you like to bend over.


And why would I blame it on whitey? My son is a blondie.

[AC]

Yep, you like BOHICA.


Can't help you there if you like to bend over.


And why would I blame it on whitey? My son is a blondie.

Making a formal complaint to the Union steward about the aggressive supervisor and officially turning down the overtime is hardly BOHICA.  However I empathize with your son because it's difficult to ignore that type of supervisor.  Yet that's why they have a chain of command.  Nobody said it would always be easy.

However I'm not at all surprised by your answer.  Why admit any responsibility when you can deflect?

[LiveFromUkraine]

As Calmissile just mentioned UPS is one of the better companies to work for, and with a union.  It's really not that difficult to turn down too much overtime work, there is a procedure for that.  It's also not that difficult to ignore a provocation and make a complaint to the union about an aggressive and abusive supervisor.  Had your son been patient the supervisor is the one who may have lost his job.  Chances are the supervisor correctly predicted your son to be a hothead and provoked him.  That's either a character builder or a bad reference waiting to happen.  Surprised you haven't (yet) blamed it on "whitey".

Not according to a friend that retired from UPS and another driver I had a conversation with.  I heard stories similar to what Muzh talked about.


As for the sprained finger, the supervisor shouldn't be getting aggressive with employees by physically touching them. He got what he deserved.  Muzh's son is better off not working for that company.

[AC]

Not according to a friend that retired from UPS and another driver I had a conversation with.  I heard stories similar to what Muzh talked about.


As for the sprained finger, the supervisor shouldn't be getting aggressive with employees by physically touching them. He got what he deserved.  Muzh's son is better off not working for that company.

Absolutely true, which is why he should have bit his tongue and made a formal complaint to both the Union and to his higher ups.  He could have even retained an employee rights attorney if need be.

Instead he is unemployed and with a bad reference as well (he said he said explanation is hardly a good reference).  It's better to improve companies from the inside out.  Better for all.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Absolutely true, which is why he should have bit his tongue and made a formal complaint to both the Union and to his higher ups.

Instead he is unemployed and with a bad reference as well (he said he said explanation is hardly a good reference).  It's better to improve companies from the inside out.  Better for all.

Sure, walking away is best if you can do so.  Sometimes it's a matter of muscle reflex. 


I remember a friend clowning around and grabbed me by the shirt and I just instinctively grabbed his wrist and put him on the floor.  I didn't even think about it, it was just reflex. 


If someone wants to touch me in an aggressive manner, I will put him down without second thought.  You don't really know what someone will do so why take the chance of them physically hurting you.  The minute they physically touch you in a threatening manner they crossed the line and it's up to you to defend yourself.



My friend that retired had to go to a psychologist towards the end of his career there.  It was that bad for him and it sure did seem like they pushed him more and more the closer he got to retirement.

[AC]

Sure, walking away is best if you can do so.  Sometimes it's a matter of muscle reflex. 


I remember a friend clowning around and grabbed me by the shirt and I just instinctively grabbed his wrist and put him on the floor.  I didn't even think about it, it was just reflex. 


If someone wants to touch me in an aggressive manner, I will put him down without second thought.  You don't really know what someone will do so why take the chance of them physically hurting you.  The minute they physically touch you in a threatening manner they crossed the line and it's up to you to defend yourself.

Famous last words.  It's easier to take a step back before they touch you in the first place.  It's also easier to change your tone of voice so they don't raise the conflict.  Your response might work at a nightclub but it's a poor response for someone at work.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Famous last words.  It's easier to take a step back before they touch you in the first place.  It's also easier to change your tone of voice so they don't raise the conflict.  Your response might work at a nightclub but it's a poor response for someone at work.

You seem to be blaming the victim here.  The supervisor is the person in the wrong.  Just because you might allow others to walk all over you doesn't mean everyone should.  A job where they allow supervisors to do that isn't a job worth having. 

[AC]

You seem to be blaming the victim here.  The supervisor is the person in the wrong.  Just because you might allow others to walk all over you doesn't mean everyone should.  A job where they allow supervisors to do that isn't a job worth having.

You're confused.  We only got one side of the story.  I am not blaming the "victim" and I don't allow anyone to walk all over me.  That's only you trying to put words in my mouth.  If everyone who felt they were mistreated quit their job nobody would work anywhere and no companies would improve how they treat their employees.

[LiveFromUkraine]

You're confused.  We only got one side of the story.  I am not blaming the "victim" and I don't allow anyone to walk all over me.  That's only you trying to put words in my mouth.  If everyone who felt they were mistreated quit their job nobody would work anywhere and no companies would improve how they treat their employees.

AC, you seem to want to make more of this story than what was told.  Of course we got one side and based on that I am discussing it.


This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened.  A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one.  We are not talking about calling someone a name here so don't try to downplay the interaction as it was told.


Yes, you are blaming the victim for taking the threat seriously and responding to it.  It sounds like you don't have much experience in physical altercations.

[AC]

AC, you seem to want to make more of this story than what was told.  Of course we got one side and based on that I am discussing it.


This isn't just being mistreated, this is about being physically threatened.  A man poking another man with his finger is a physical threat and should be treated as one.  We are not talking about calling someone a name here so don't try to downplay the interaction as it was told.

The story told was precise.  A guy got fired because he responded with physical force to an alleged provocation.  Perhaps you and the guy who got fired can get together and whine about it.

Others like me would have made a complaint thru the chain of command.  You can misinterpret this any way you want to; you always do. 

Thick as a brick comes to mind right now.  Go ahead and get the last word if it makes you happy.

[LiveFromUkraine]

The story told was precise.  A guy got fired because he responded with physical force to an alleged provocation.  Perhaps you and the guy who got fired can get together and whine about it.

Others like me would have made a complaint thru the chain of command.  You can misinterpret this any way you want to; you always do. 

Thick as a brick comes to mind right now.  Go ahead and get the last word if it makes you happy.

Ah, I understand now.  You would rather someone push you around and beg to keep your job so you can change the company from the inside.  I bet that supervisor loves guys like you which is why he was probably surprised one person didn't accept his physical provocation.

Yes, thick as a brick is perfect for you.  I honestly can't believe you would allow someone to poke you in the chest just because you told him no.


You obviously feel like you deserve to be treated like that and who am I to disagree. 

[AC]

Yes, you are blaming the victim for taking the threat seriously and responding to it.  It sounds like you don't have much experience in physical altercations.

This from the pantywaist pacifist who is against the USA responding to ISIS terrorists in the Middle East who are decapitating hostages and want a region wide Caliphate.


                                                                                                           

[LiveFromUkraine]

This from the pantywaist pacifist who is against the USA responding to ISIS terrorists in the Middle East who are decapitating hostages and want a region wide Caliphate.


                                                                                                           

I see you're a man of your word.


Anyway, it's funny that you mention USA response to sending other men over to battle ISIS when you wouldn't even bother defending yourself when physcially threatened.


You have no problem with fighting when it's someone else.  If you're involved, you would walk away and file a report trying to change the bad people through peaceful means. 


Maybe you should join the ISIS fight and start giving the bad people reports telling them why they are bad people.  Hell, you should join ISIS and change them from within.