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Author Topic: Ukraine-The Future  (Read 208838 times)

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lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2014, 03:47:30 AM »
Stalin didn't sack those who were disloyal to him.  He killed people that were innocent in order to compell the disloyal to obey.

I wish we had such laws in America.  In all honesty a 1m civil servants in a nation of 45 million is too many.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2014, 06:04:48 AM »
The funny thing is that they seem to be doing what they accuse others of.
Replacing anyone who does not follow the ideology of the government does seem a bit Stalinistic.


That is the way I see it too.


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline ghost of moon goddess

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2014, 06:07:48 AM »

Replacing anyone who does not follow the ideology of the government does seem a bit Stalinistic.


The wrong thing to worry about!
They will try to worm their way into Parliament again, by hook or by crook. I suspect they would fold ''residues'' of their consciences into fourths, if they thought this would help to get them into small drop slots of ballot boxes  >:(
If you want to keep your expressions convergent, never allow them a single degree of freedom.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2014, 05:22:52 PM »
The funny thing is that they seem to be doing what they accuse others of.
Replacing anyone who does not follow the ideology of the government does seem a bit Stalinistic.

No--that is not what it is about.To explain it for you in simple terms--it is about loyalty to their country and employer  -- and not a foreign invader rejected by the huge majority.
In theory--it is a reasonable expectation.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #104 on: October 10, 2014, 07:12:03 PM »
Communism still has devotees in the West Jay.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2014, 07:46:31 PM »
Communism still has devotees in the West Jay.

Having beliefs is not illegal in democracies-the freedom to have them is fundamental.That is quite different to actively working against your employers interests by disclosing what should be confidentail information.
In times of a crisis--like a war!-- different standards need to  be applied. In Ukraine's case where much of government structure was created in the Soviet days there will still be  a lot of cross polinisation because of that,
Incidentally--that does work 2 ways -the flow of information to the security forces and military from Russia has been solid-- but governments need a degree of confidentiality in the decision making process- and the ability to disclose on their own terms.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2014, 08:43:38 PM »
The enemy of freedom has always been moral decadence since in the beginning!

Offline Shadow

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2014, 03:10:15 AM »
No--that is not what it is about.To explain it for you in simple terms--it is about loyalty to their country and employer  -- and not a foreign invader rejected by the huge majority.
In theory--it is a reasonable expectation.
The sheer concept of someone being born in a country and having obtained a government job in the past now seen as a foreign invader shows the exact opposite.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Shadow

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #108 on: October 11, 2014, 03:11:11 AM »
The enemy of freedom has always been moral decadence since in the beginning!
The real enemy of freedom are those who proclaim there is a need to limit it in order to have it.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2014, 06:59:56 AM »
The real enemy of freedom are those who proclaim there is a need to limit it in order to have it.

You sound like the tree dweller in Genesis 3:5.

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #110 on: October 11, 2014, 08:40:19 AM »
The sheer concept of someone being born in a country and having obtained a government job in the past now seen as a foreign invader shows the exact opposite.

I thought a man like you renounced such subscriptions to jingoism.  Funny how politics makes   a Janus out of some.

Offline Shadow

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2014, 02:40:34 AM »
I thought a man like you renounced such subscriptions to jingoism.  Funny how politics makes   a Janus out of some.
I am merely pointing out that some decisions seem to be totalitarian in nature.
I am sure that if Putin would decide to fire any government official with a name ending in -ko you would be screaming about it, yet if Kiev suggests it then it is fine.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2014, 01:25:53 PM »
But Kyiv is not firing individuals based on the ethnic origin of their surnames. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2014, 01:29:47 PM »
But Kyiv is not firing individuals based on the ethnic origin of their surnames.
They are firing them on their ethnic orientation.
Which goes even beyond just the name being suspicious.
Dutch reporters describe a situation in Ukraine that is an awful lot like we were told happened in Soviet times, where people are afraid to express any opinion on the street due to fear of repercussions. And these reporters are not in the 'unsafe' Donbass area.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2014, 01:38:18 PM »
Well, my apolitical relatives in Kyiv, who all have Russian surnames, have zero fear in expressing their opinions, and have not since the collapse.  Nor do my relatives in Western Ukraine.


The lustration law is not targeting a specific ethnicity.  In addition to banning from office anyone who served in Yanukovych's regime who has left the country, it will also ban anyone who cannot prove from whence they acquired large amounts of cash.  This is not an ethnic test.


Judges and law enforcement officials living lavish lifestyles will be subject to investigation.  Given that the most ruthless scandals of robbery and human trafficking in Ukraine have almost all involved police officers (usually higher ranks), I believe this is something that should have been done a decade ago.












After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2014, 01:44:37 PM »
Well, my apolitical relatives in Kyiv, who all have Russian surnames, have zero fear in expressing their opinions, and have not since the collapse.  Nor do my relatives in Western Ukraine.


The lustration law is not targeting a specific ethnicity.  In addition to banning from office anyone who served in Yanukovych's regime who has left the country, it will also ban anyone who cannot prove from whence they acquired large amounts of cash.  This is not an ethnic test.


Judges and law enforcement officials living lavish lifestyles will be subject to investigation.  Given that the most ruthless scandals of robbery and human trafficking in Ukraine have almost all involved police officers (usually higher ranks), I believe this is something that should have been done a decade ago.
If the law is limited to what you state here I can only agree on it. If it is used to ban those who have remained in service but might still vote for 'blue' it is a very different matter. I hope we agree on that.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2014, 01:52:43 PM »
Then we agree.

I don't think the law is intended to prohibit anyone from the Party of Regions from holding office.  It is intended to weed out corruption. 

My husband has a relative through marriage who laundered money for Our Ukraine.  He also purchased an entire Kyiv block of apartments with stolen money.  He fled after a warrant for his arrest was issued during the Yanukovych presidency.  I am fairly certain he is hiding out in Astana.  But, it has been the last Rada, after Euromaidan, that confiscated his ill gotten properties.  He is still hiding out.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline calmissile

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #117 on: October 12, 2014, 02:21:14 PM »
They are firing them on their ethnic orientation.
Which goes even beyond just the name being suspicious.
Dutch reporters describe a situation in Ukraine that is an awful lot like we were told happened in Soviet times, where people are afraid to express any opinion on the street due to fear of repercussions. And these reporters are not in the 'unsafe' Donbass area.

I guess I would be leery of your Dutch reporters.  I have not heard or seen anything about this.
Are you talking about lustration or something independent of that?

Who is getting 'fired' from what job?

« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 02:23:48 PM by calmissile »
Doug (Calmissile)

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #118 on: October 12, 2014, 05:10:15 PM »
I am merely pointing out that some decisions seem to be totalitarian in nature.
I am sure that if Putin would decide to fire any government official with a name ending in -ko you would be screaming about it, yet if Kiev suggests it then it is fine.

Instead of accusing me of what I might do.  Accuse me of what I have done.  It would make you seem less Soviet and more human.  Thanks Dutch

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2014, 12:36:13 PM »
The "people's republics" have not yet even chosen leaders, and the infighting is already in full swing.  Today, another self appointed "leader" was attacked.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29593949
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine-The Future...Hunter Biden Cocaine use gets him the boot.
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2014, 08:27:56 PM »
Well I came across a little article here about Hunter Biden, who is serving on the largest private Ukrainian gas board...LEGAL DIVISION.......that is an interesting choice since he was tossed from the Navy for cocaine use LAST YEAR!! A highly illegal and questionable act, especially for a 44 year old.  How the hell is he on a legal team in Ukraine?  Were the Ukrainians aware of his history?  It would seem to me that this guy is NOT the guy to be in charge of a LEGAL team. 


http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/16/politics/hunter-biden-discharged-from-navy/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2014, 10:04:46 AM »
I found this rather dismal assessment of what the future of Ukraine might be if the direction doesn't change.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-d-wood/ukraines-uncertain-future_b_6044834.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #122 on: October 25, 2014, 10:59:24 AM »
I found this rather dismal assessment of what the future of Ukraine might be if the direction doesn't change.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-d-wood/ukraines-uncertain-future_b_6044834.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


Fathertime!


LMFAO


I could imagine you responding to the revolutionaries back in the eighteenth century America that they should forget their inane revolt and accept the win-win reality King George was offering, WHICH WAS NONE!


Do you have a yellow streak running down your spine, or was that inherited?


I read the whole article and the author did not augur doom and gloom. What she said is things are going to be difficult. I can see you don't like to work hard. Or are you on the Kremlin's payroll?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #123 on: October 25, 2014, 11:31:12 AM »

LMFAO


I could imagine you responding to the revolutionaries back in the eighteenth century America that they should forget their inane revolt and accept the win-win reality King George was offering, WHICH WAS NONE!


Do you have a yellow streak running down your spine, or was that inherited?


I read the whole article and the author did not augur doom and gloom. What she said is things are going to be difficult. I can see you don't like to work hard. Or are you on the Kremlin's payroll?


It seems to me that you aren't reading very good...overall there was a lot of 'gloom and doom' in that article.


  I don't see you as being 'brave'  because you are commending Ukrainians to fight, while I say that will not help and lead to much more of their own deaths.  Have you always been so foolish and 'brave', when it comes to other people's lives? 


It is a little humorous that any statement or link that goes contrary to the silly narrative you attempt to push is 'Russian propaganda'.  There remains 2 sides to the story, whether you like it or not! Those that refuse to acknowledge that will always be a part of the problem. 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #124 on: October 25, 2014, 11:28:35 PM »
JayH, as a member of the Poroshenko government, can you confirm or deny US personnel involved in Ukraine's resupply or training outside declared NATO exercises?

 

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