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Author Topic: The Propaganda War  (Read 407911 times)

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Offline Isthmus

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #750 on: August 26, 2014, 04:57:20 PM »
I know this is a side issue but there is some real nonsense being sprouted about US involvement and engagement in ex Yugoslavia in the 1990s. There really was no policy initially in Bush Snr's Administration other than a nod and a wink to Milosevic to wrap things up quickly in Slovenia and Croatia in 1991.

Thereafter followed no real policy of substance and it was left to the EU to carry the ball. The EU proved to be grossly incompetent and failed abysmally whilst Belgrade racked up atrocities of the scale and type of a what was thought to be from a bygone era.

It was only in late 1994 that the Clinton Administration become more actively involved and this picked up pace during 1995.

Active US engagement in 1995 and again in 1998/99 over Kosovo actually brought peace and stability to the whole of ex-YU which has survived to this day and is one of the rare examples of a successful US interventionist policy abroad in the last few decades.


Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #751 on: August 26, 2014, 05:31:46 PM »
Bit: BBC previously aired an Alan Little's, a BBC correspondent, documentary titled: *Moral Combat. NATO at War*

Bit 1: "I believed in the ultimate power, the goodness of the power of the allies and led by the United States. Spring has come early!" Madeline Albright.

Bit 2: "There were a couple of times when I felt I just can't do this any more. We're just not doing this right and I owe it to my people to stand up and say we're just not doing this right!" Gen. Michael Short


LMAO


Now I know your busting our balls.


I mean, the US is influencing the outcome throughout the world?


To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #752 on: August 26, 2014, 08:13:34 PM »
I know this is a side issue but there is some real nonsense being sprouted about US involvement and engagement in ex Yugoslavia in the 1990s. There really was no policy initially in Bush Snr's Administration other than a nod and a wink to Milosevic to wrap things up quickly in Slovenia and Croatia in 1991.


Thereafter followed no real policy of substance and it was left to the EU to carry the ball. The EU proved to be grossly incompetent and failed abysmally whilst Belgrade racked up atrocities of the scale and type of a what was thought to be from a bygone era.

It was only in late 1994 that the Clinton Administration become more actively involved and this picked up pace during 1995.

Active US engagement in 1995 and again in 1998/99 over Kosovo actually brought peace and stability to the whole of ex-YU which has survived to this day and is one of the rare examples of a successful US interventionist policy abroad in the last few decades.

Well, let's just say in matters concerning Yugoslavia between you and Alan Little, my dollar will rest with him, LOL.

Here's a neat little historical 6-part episodes that Alan Little and Lauren Silver did. It's called 'Death of Yugoslavia'. Sort of a documentary timeline...there isn't no 'nod and a wink' from Bush Sr, I'm sad to say...



But feel free to stay with your narrative. Here's a cool foreign affair activity Bush had during his presidential tenure...

http://millercenter.org/president/bush/essays/biography/5

I was hoping you weren't going to say that the US's intervention in Yugoslavia was a purely 'humanitarian' cause because not too far from there is this little African nation called Rwanda, who in a much relatively shorter time, roughly 800,000 Rwandans we're getting hacked to death with machetes and not one humanitarian was in sight intervening. LMAO...and we were actually in that part of the world not too long ago before that hack-party took place, too. That hellhole of a place called 'Somalia'.

To say, the aftermath of US's involvement in Yugoslavia resulted in success and 'relative peace' is being disingenuous. There's 'relative peace and success in Rwanda today, too.

So what exactly is your point?  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 08:36:18 PM by GQBlues »
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2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #753 on: August 26, 2014, 08:14:47 PM »

LMAO


Now I know your busting our balls.


I mean, the US is influencing the outcome throughout the world?

Nah...whatever gave you that idea?  :o Especially NOT in Ukraine, no?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 08:30:45 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline TheTraveler

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #754 on: August 27, 2014, 05:34:41 AM »

As I can only speak for myself, and what I have been saying all along, I don't give a rat's arse what Russia or Putin does, nor have I ever taken a stand to defend whatever it was they're doing. My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage...

great points. good post.

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #755 on: August 27, 2014, 05:52:17 AM »
Great points?

We have a long suffering people, who had it up to their ears at corruption from their president and his entourage that is so massive, even they can no longer take it, demonstrate for change.  Someone in that president's entourage orders the shooting of protesters, against the Constitution, and for some unknown reason, those protesters should just stop and continue to allow the president and his cronies to siphon hundreds of millions of tax dollars for their private coffers via shell companies, to take a cut from every bank in the country, to build an LED port with taxpayer funds completely owned by that same elite group, to illegally change the country's Constitution to give the president unlimited powers, and to replace an independent judiciary at the highest levels with the president's own flunkees.  Yet somehow, Ukrainians are too neanderthal to have decided that this assault on their rights, and on their lives, is abnormal.  Nope, they were manipulated by the far more sophisticated Americans to march on the streets, to face gunfire and death, all for some perceived, yet unknown and unannounced US interests. 

Yup, makes sense to me.  You know those primitive Slavs.  Good at producing hot women for our interests, but really, too stupid to see what is under their noses, or to rule themselves.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 06:03:37 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #756 on: August 27, 2014, 06:16:11 AM »
Do not forget the protests started because those people were promised a membership of the EU, which was how the trade treaty was ´explained´.
As for corruption, I sincerely doubt the current crew will prove any better than all those before (orange or not).
Hopefully history will prove me wrong.
Did Poroschenko sell his business already?
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #757 on: August 27, 2014, 06:19:57 AM »
Most Euromaidan activists understood what the Association Agreement meant.


The current Rada failed to pass anti corruption measures demanded by Maidan activists.


Poroshenko has hired a European company to handle the sale of his business interests.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline TheTraveler

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #758 on: August 27, 2014, 06:26:10 AM »
...Someone in that president's entourage orders the shooting of protesters...

hysterical and not based on solid proof.

so i just stopped reading when i reached that sentence.

time is too valuable to be wasted on blah blah blah.

sorry!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 06:34:43 AM by TheTraveler »

Offline Shadow

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #759 on: August 27, 2014, 06:27:34 AM »
Most Euromaidan activists understood what the Association Agreement meant.


The current Rada failed to pass anti corruption measures demanded by Maidan activists.


Poroshenko has hired a European company to handle the sale of his business interests.
Strange. None of those we met on social media did.
And there is no current Rada, it as dissolved awaiting elections, hoping that in October the Donbass area will still be unable to cast a vote.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #760 on: August 27, 2014, 06:43:40 AM »
hysterical and not based on solid proof.

so i just stopped reading when i reached that sentence.

time is too valuable to be wasted on blah blah blah.

sorry!


There is plenty of proof of Yanukovych's trashing of the Constitution, appointing cronies to Ukraine's supreme court, of the companies he and his entourage established to steal tax funds, of the LED port, and of the shooting of protesters, including some 100 bodies.


There is no proof that the U.S. orchestrated the events in Ukraine.


But, I didn't expect anything more than a passing insult from you,  You have never really struck me as a deep thinker.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #761 on: August 27, 2014, 06:46:32 AM »
Strange. None of those we met on social media did.
And there is no current Rada, it as dissolved awaiting elections, hoping that in October the Donbass area will still be unable to cast a vote.


You probably were not interacting with Maidan activists.


You know I meant the Rada as at three days ago.  The lack of movement on lustration is likely why the Rada was dissolved.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online Faux Pas

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #762 on: August 27, 2014, 07:49:11 AM »
I find it laughable that some folks have to blame the current U.S. administration for the events at Maiden and Ukraine in general. An administration that can't find it's own ass with both hands. I suppose that is the only narrative that can project Putin into a true humanitarian in saving Russian speaking Ukrainians from the Fascist bastards in Kiev. These are the same folks crying about the ineptness of this same administration in other areas of the world.

If they had blamed any administration before this one, or possibly some lobbying group or mega oil company they might have a valid argument. But, no it has to be the U.S. and this administration. Never mind that they are completely devoid of any truth or actual facts connecting the Obama group with the exception of one recorded phone call. Funny how they attempt to use that same parallel  to support their position. Never mind that Russian military and equipment are being captured and killed inside Ukraine. I suppose the Obama administration planted them there.

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #763 on: August 27, 2014, 08:33:50 AM »
I find it laughable that some folks have to blame the current U.S. administration for the events at Maiden and Ukraine in general. An administration that can't find it's own ass with both hands. I suppose that is the only narrative that can project Putin into a true humanitarian in saving Russian speaking Ukrainians from the Fascist bastards in Kiev. These are the same folks crying about the ineptness of this same administration in other areas of the world.



Don't forget the intellectual EU.


LMFAO


Good one!!
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #764 on: August 27, 2014, 08:45:07 AM »
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #765 on: August 27, 2014, 08:55:07 AM »
I find it laughable that some folks have to blame the current U.S. administration for the events at Maiden and Ukraine in general. An administration that can't find it's own ass with both hands. I suppose that is the only narrative that can project Putin into a true humanitarian in saving Russian speaking Ukrainians from the Fascist bastards in Kiev. These are the same folks crying about the ineptness of this same administration in other areas of the world.

If they had blamed any administration before this one, or possibly some lobbying group or mega oil company they might have a valid argument. But, no it has to be the U.S. and this administration. Never mind that they are completely devoid of any truth or actual facts connecting the Obama group with the exception of one recorded phone call. Funny how they attempt to use that same parallel  to support their position. Never mind that Russian military and equipment are being captured and killed inside Ukraine. I suppose the Obama administration planted them there.


Hhhmmm...because YOU don't think it plausible then it cannot be...gotcha.

 ;)

Did you also think it wasn't plausible this administration would be shoulder to shoulder with the Iranians fighting in Iraq? Or that they do not require any international approval to fly the sky of a sovereign nation, which they've classified as an 'enemy' looking for war? Something which they demonize everyone else when they do it?

I bet you didn't now, did you?
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #766 on: August 27, 2014, 10:18:31 AM »

Hhhmmm...because YOU don't think it plausible then it cannot be...gotcha.

 ;)

Egg-'zatly  :D Just as you think it is. There just has to be some other explanation for the events of Maiden than a repressed downtrodden populace, eh? Just has to be. It has to be the US, the root of all evil. Then you have a maniacal commie purist that is the savior of the day.  :ROFL:

Can your position get anymore comical than that? There isn't much verifiable proof to either side of the conflict but, the assertion that the West slipped in under the radar of the Ukrainian government while Yanko was still in office and fomented Maiden is really "out there". What is even further absurd is that the West or Representatives fired on the crowd. The killing in Ukraine thus far has been a result of Russian backed terrorists. It started at Maiden and it continues in the East.



Quote
Did you also think it wasn't plausible this administration would be shoulder to shoulder with the Iranians fighting in Iraq? Or that they do not require any international approval to fly the sky of a sovereign nation, which they've classified as an 'enemy' looking for war? Something which they demonize everyone else when they do it?

I bet you didn't now, did you?

I think if I was looking for a bigger juicier red herring, I couldn't have found one bigger than this doosie. Apparently I would agree with you on this subject but, stick with me here. We are discussing Ukraine, Maiden, Russia, Terrorist. Not the ISIS form of terrorism, it's a different sort. Stay on topic. By the way, I know the U.S. had nothing to do with Maiden because there is an Ebola outbreak in Africa.  ;D

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #767 on: August 27, 2014, 10:26:00 AM »
...

Reuters/NPR reported it back in April when *Ukrainian paratroopers* ( :rolleyes: ) defected and went to the rebels' camp....

>>..."All the soldiers and the officers are here. We are all boys who won't shoot our own people," said the soldier, whose uniform did not have any identifying markings on it."They haven't fed us for three days on our base. They're feeding us here. Who do you think we are going to fight for?," he said...<<

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-apcs-idUSBREA3F0K420140416


I posted this yesterday and noted in both of those venues, and in different time and circumstances, Ukraine government soldiers complained of being under-supplied and have nothing to 'eat'...I thought the US had sent millions of dollars worth of supplies to Kiev for this conflict, which notably included MREs...

On the video above, when the soldiers were showing what I first though were *bricks* were actually 'bread' that they're lugging with them. Now I know they aren't exactly the US-made MREs...what the heck happened to them and why are those soldiers being expected to fight for the government in these state.

So I searched, and look what I found out.

http://time.com/45253/ukraine-corruption-tymoshenko-kiev/

The more things change, the more they really stay the same.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #768 on: August 27, 2014, 10:32:43 AM »
You are forgetting the Russian infiltration in government.  ;)


Edit: At least some are fighting back. Don't expect miracles overnight.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 10:34:47 AM by Muzh »
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #769 on: August 27, 2014, 10:33:16 AM »
Egg-'zatly  :D Just as you think it is. There just has to be some other explanation for the events of Maiden than a repressed downtrodden populace, eh? Just has to be. It has to be the US, the root of all evil. Then you have a maniacal commie purist that is the savior of the day....

You're starting to get it, bro....give it time. You know you want to..

Quote
...Can your position get anymore comical than that? There isn't much verifiable proof to either side of the conflict but, the assertion that the West slipped in under the radar of the Ukrainian government while Yanko was still in office and fomented Maiden is really "out there". What is even further absurd is that the West or Representatives fired on the crowd. The killing in Ukraine thus far has been a result of Russian backed terrorists. It started at Maiden and it continues in the East....

Nuland thought the tap was impressively clear enough. LMAO!


Quote
I think if I was looking for a bigger juicier red herring, I couldn't have found one bigger than this doosie. Apparently I would agree with you on this subject but, stick with me here. We are discussing Ukraine, Maiden, Russia, Terrorist. Not the ISIS form of terrorism, it's a different sort. Stay on topic. By the way, I know the U.S. had nothing to do with Maiden because there is an Ebola outbreak in Africa.  ;D

I am staying 'on-topic', in case you once again *conveniently* missed it. The topic was *US intervention* AND *exceptionalism* :P

You, on the other hand, presented ebola, LMAO!

It is widely known that virtual *Red Herring* are usually offered up as a last offering when one gets boxed in a corner so as to not have to venture further into the discussion.

I get you, bro.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #770 on: August 27, 2014, 11:02:18 AM »
..."In Donetsk the SMM met with an interlocutor from the Donetsk Eparchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.  According to the interlocutor, on 30 July, a priest from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate was verbally and physically assaulted by Ukrainian Army servicemen while passing through an army checkpoint located in the area of Amrosievka (75 km southeast of Donetsk). Reportedly, several servicemen stopped and surrounded the priest whom they asked about his church affiliation, namely to which Patriarchate he belonged. Reportedly, while the priest was about to answer, one of the servicemen fired shots in the air next to the priest’s ears. The servicemen then asked the priest to take off his necklace carrying a Christian Cross, but when the priest resisted they pulled it off violently, said the interlocutor.

The servicemen searched the house of the priest, who was beaten and his family members threatened. The interlocutor could not specify which military unit was manning the checkpoint at the time of the alleged assault, but had later learnt the servicemen were newly-deployed in the area. Following the incident, the church produced a report which was sent to church’s head offices in Kyiv which in turn, on 1 August 2014, referred it to the office of the Ukrainian President. According to the interlocutor, there has been no reply to the complaint from the President’s office thus far...."

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/123004
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Gator

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #771 on: August 27, 2014, 11:21:35 AM »
I sent a bit of this 'factual report upthread with my discussion with Boethius. Maybe a page past this current one.

I read your reference.  It centers on events in 2009.  These are nothing more than routine diplomatic moves to support if not encourage a closer relationship between Ukraine and the West, particularly Europe.   

This is not a "factual report" about covert US operations to overthrow Ukraine's President.  Yet you extrapolate these routine 2009 diplomatic moves to the US covertly instigating Euromaidan starting in November 2013.   I don't believe The US government does high level covert operations to support future trade pacts benefitting EU.  Further, as Faux Pas says, this administration can not distinguish its ass from a hole in the ground, yet you assert it can orchestrate  something as slick as Euromaidan without a trace of US involvement. 

Everyone is telling you there is no proof.  If we are wrong, prove it.  Please present something factual and relevant

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #772 on: August 27, 2014, 11:37:12 AM »
 :offtopic:   Yugoslavia


LOL. You should go ahead and consult  your PhD *friend* ASAP and do ask him how Germany and the US was involved in the Balkans of the '90s.   

Before I contact my friend, I want to make sure I understand your point.  I intend to ask the following questions; if I am missing something, please let me know: 

1.   What was the extent of involvement of the US in the Balkans of the '90s other than the two NATO bombing campaigns?

2.  Did the involvement of the US in Balkans significantly affect the breakup of Yugoslavia?    Or was the breakup inevitable as a result of sociological and political differences deeply embedded over centuries, with the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe triggering the breakup events?   

3.  What is the general opinion of Little’s book Death of Yugoslavia



Quote
WTF does NATO have anything to do with Yugoslavia anyway to begin with? You might also want to ask your Swede friend about that.  :P


No need to ask him as I too question the involvement given that there was no threat to a NATO nation.   


Quote
Sorry, way before my time. Your generation I suppose, no? 


To understand the Balkans one must understand its long, complex history.  Sorry to disappoint you but I was not around in the Middle Ages, nor during the Ottoman Empire, nor when Serb Gavrilo Princip assassinated the heir to the Austro Hungarian throne.  I was around in the latter days of the Croat fascist state but was wearing diapers and not really interested in the Balkans. 

Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #773 on: August 27, 2014, 11:42:29 AM »
I read your reference.  It centers on events in 2009.  These are nothing more than routine diplomatic moves to support if not encourage a closer relationship between Ukraine and the West, particularly Europe.   

This is not a "factual report" about covert US operations to overthrow Ukraine's President.  Yet you extrapolate these routine 2009 diplomatic moves to the US covertly instigating Euromaidan starting in November 2013.   I don't believe The US government does high level covert operations to support future trade pacts benefitting EU.  Further, as Faux Pas says, this administration can not distinguish its ass from a hole in the ground, yet you assert it can orchestrate  something as slick as Euromaidan without a trace of US involvement. 

Everyone is telling you there is no proof.  If we are wrong, prove it.  Please present something factual and relevant.

That was just an appetizer. Follow the report of where it came from. There had been many more reports of the kind from since 2006 to present (Maybe even way before that, but no matter). I already gave you precursor and I'm sure you're more than capable enough to find your way.

Once done, you can extrapolate all those ensuing $ 5.4 billions dollars worth of USAid for Freedom and Democracy to countries we usually usher to prior to an overthrow, LOL.

For instance. This, from 2008. Preceeding that of 2009....

Classified By: Ambassador William J. Burns.  Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
 

1.  (C) Summary.  Following a muted first reaction to Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat.  NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia.  In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene.  Additionally, the GOR and experts continue to claim that Ukrainian NATO membership would have a major impact on Russia's defense industry, Russian-Ukrainian family connections, and bilateral relations generally.  In Georgia, the GOR fears continued instability and "provocative acts" in the separatist regions.  End summary.

MFA: NATO Enlargement "Potential Military Threat to Russia"

2.  (U) During his annual review of Russia's foreign policy January 22-23 (ref B), Foreign Minister Lavrov stressed that Russia had to view continued eastward expansion of NATO, particularly to Ukraine and Georgia, as a potential military threat.  While Russia might believe statements from the West that NATO was not directed against Russia, when one looked at recent military activities in NATO countries (establishment of U.S. forward operating locations, etc. they had to be evaluated not by stated intentions but by potential.  Lavrov stressed that maintaining Russia's "sphere of influence" in the neighborhood was anachronistic, and acknowledged that the U.S. and Europe had "legitimate interests" in the region. But, he argued, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors.

3.  (U) Lavrov emphasized that Russia was convinced that enlargement was not based on security reasons, but was a legacy of the Cold War.  He disputed arguments that NATO was an appropriate mechanism for helping to strengthen democratic governments.  He said that Russia understood that NATO was in search of a new mission, but there was a growing tendency for new members to do and say whatever they wanted simply because they were under the NATO umbrella (e.g. attempts of some new member countries to "rewrite history and glorify fascists").

4.  (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia."  The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side."  The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures."  The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation."

Russian Opposition Neuralgic and Concrete

5.  (C) Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region.  Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.  Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war.  In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.

6.  (C) Dmitriy Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, expressed concern that Ukraine was, in the long-term, the most potentially destabilizing factor in U.S.-Russian relations, given the level of emotion and neuralgia triggered by its quest for NATO membership.  The letter requesting MAP consideration had come as a "bad surprise" to Russian officials, who calculated that Ukraine's NATO aspirations were safely on the backburner.  With its public letter, the issue had been "sharpened."  Because membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics, it created an opening for Russian intervention.  Trenin expressed concern that elements within the Russian establishment would be encouraged to meddle, stimulating U.S. overt encouragement of opposing political forces, and leaving the U.S. and Russia in a classic confrontational posture. The irony, Trenin professed, was that Ukraine's membership would defang NATO, but neither the Russian public nor elite opinion was ready for that argument.  Ukraine's gradual shift towards the West was one thing, its preemptive status as a de jure U.S. military ally another.  Trenin cautioned strongly against letting an internal Ukrainian fight for power, where MAP was merely a lever in domestic politics,  further complicate U.S.-Russian relations now.

7.  (C) Another issue driving Russian opposition to Ukrainian membership is the significant defense industry cooperation the two countries share, including a number of plants where Russian weapons are made.  While efforts are underway to shut down or move most of these plants to Russia, and to move the Black Sea fleet from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk earlier than the 2017 deadline, the GOR has made clear that Ukraine's joining NATO would require Russia to make major (costly) changes to its defense industrial cooperation.

8.  (C) Similarly, the GOR and experts note that there would also be a significant impact on Russian-Ukrainian economic and labor relations, including the effect on thousands of Ukrainians living and working in Russia and vice versa, due to the necessity of imposing a new visa regime.  This, Aleksandr Konovalov, Director of the Institute for Strategic Assessment, argued, would become a boiling cauldron of anger and resentment among the local population.

9.  (C) With respect to Georgia, most experts said that while not as neuralgic to Russia as Ukraine, the GOR viewed the situation there as too unstable to withstand the divisiveness NATO membership could cause.  Aleksey Arbatov, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, argued that Georgia's NATO aspirations were simply a way to solve its problems in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and warned that Russia would be put in a difficult situation were that to ensue.

Russia's Response

10.  (C) The GOR has made it clear that it would have to "seriously review" its entire relationship with Ukraine and Georgia in the event of NATO inviting them to join.  This could include major impacts on energy, economic, and political-military engagement, with possible repercussions throughout the region and into Central and Western Europe. Russia would also likely revisit its own relationship with the Alliance and activities in the NATO-Russia Council, and consider further actions in the arms control arena, including the possibility of complete withdrawal from the CFE and INF Treaties, and more direct threats against U.S. missile defense plans.

11.  (C) Isabelle Francois, Director of the NATO Information Office in Moscow (protect), said she believed that Russia had accepted that Ukraine and Georgia would eventually join NATO and was engaged in long-term planning to reconfigure its relations with both countries, and with the Alliance. However, Russia was not yet ready to deal with the consequences of further NATO enlargement to its south.  She added that while Russia liked the cooperation with NATO in the NATO-Russia Council, Russia would feel it necessary to insist on recasting the NATO-Russia relationship, if not withdraw completely from the NRC, in the event of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

Comment

12. (C) Russia's opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia is both emotional and based on perceived strategic concerns about the impact on Russia's interests in the region.  It is also politically popular to paint the U.S. and NATO as Russia's adversaries and to use NATO's outreach to Ukraine and Georgia as a means of generating support from Russian nationalists.  While Russian opposition to the first round of NATO enlargement in the mid-1990's was strong, Russia now feels itself able to respond more forcefully to what it perceives as actions contrary to its national interests.

BURNS2013: The YES Summit.

2014: Enter - Nuland's cookie festival and tap...

There's many more points and info in between, but I judge you can exercise due diligence on your own.
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #774 on: August 27, 2014, 11:48:07 AM »
:offtopic:   Yugoslavia

Before I contact my friend, I want to make sure I understand your point.  I intend to ask the following questions; if I am missing something, please let me know: ..

 
1.   What was the extent of involvement of the US in the Balkans of the '90s other than the two NATO bombing campaigns?
Yup.

2.  Did the involvement of the US in Balkans significantly affect the breakup of Yugoslavia?    Or was the breakup inevitable as a result of sociological and political differences deeply embedded over centuries, with the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe triggering the breakup events?   


Nope. Point being it's irrelevant. What was Yugoslavia's affairs are their own.

3.  What is the general opinion of Little’s book Death of Yugoslavia? 

...in addition to, but not least, his documentary titled: Moral Combat: NATO at War

No need to ask him as I too question the involvement given that there was no threat to a NATO nation.   

Well then, I rest my case...maybe your friend can answer that for us.

To understand the Balkans one must understand its long, complex history.  Sorry to disappoint you but I was not around in the Middle Ages, nor during the Ottoman Empire, nor when Serb Gavrilo Princip assassinated the heir to the Austro Hungarian throne.  I was around in the latter days of the Croat fascist state but was wearing diapers and not really interested in the Balkans.


That wasn't what is being tabled here. Most every nation have their own historical legacies and none of it has anything to do with our intervention in the Balkans of the '90s and the arming of a group we already classified as 'a terrorist group'..

Are you getting this yet?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:51:08 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

 

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