Moscow Night Life

[shakespear]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Not ashamed to admit I know quite a bit about this topic.  I'm well known enough at most of the clubs that I don't have any feis-control problems, even at exclusive clubs like Rai and Soho Rooms.  Usually don't bother to pay the cover.  When in Moscow, I regularly "run" with guys like Doug Steele. 

Also know quite a bit about restaurants and other places of interest in the evening hours.

If anyone has any questions about this topic, post them here and I'll try to answer them for you.

Shakespear

[IAmZon]

Nice to meet you Shake -

I wonder about taking a run at the night life in Moscow.  I have a pretty strong resume on the subject. 

Why don't you draw a picture for us.  Especially on how gringos / Americans are perceived.  The dynamics between visitors and people in the Moscow club scene - men and women.  The do's and dont's.   How has the situation changed over the last 16 months?

Thanks

[shakespear]

Nice to meet you Shake -

I wonder about taking a run at the night life in Moscow.  I have a pretty strong resume on the subject. 

Why don't you draw a picture for us.  Especially on how gringos / Americans are perceived.  The dynamics between visitors and people in the Moscow club scene - men and women.  The do's and dont's.   How has the situation changed over the last 16 months?

Thanks

Hi Rivardco -

I try my best.  Don't want to offend anyone since most of what I'll be talking about has little to do with seeking a bride in the FSU and some even label it sex tourism.

The big change happened in the timeframe between 2002-2004, when oil prices shot up and the economy of Russia improved by leaps and bounds.  Prior to that time it was pretty easy for a man flashing a western passport and sporting a western income to meet and first-night bed ladies met in Moscow nightspots. 

It's a much tougher arena now.  While not impossible, it is extremely difficult for a man not living in Moscow full-time to be successful in the Moscow night life scene.  It's why many opt for the "professional" route; it's a high-quality product, a "sure thing" and the money spent is not that much different in the long run than a night out chasing in one of the more popular high-end night clubs. 

I'll stop here and see if anyone seems offended at what I've posted so far before I contune on in more specific detail.     

[IAmZon]

As long as you qualify your comments, I think the group should understand we are speaking of the realities of things, and avoid BS, knee-jerk moralizing.  So please continue.

I will volunteer to stir the pot if I may ...

I lived in Colombia for 8 of the last 16 months, the marriage agency / dating site thing is very very big.  However, as a person who become popular with the locals, my perspective changed 180 degrees from what the normal Americano presumes in just a week vacation.  The most eligible women are often the ... most eligible women.  That means, I saw them out at the best clubs mostly every weekend - or they sit home and knit.  Now, I think the Latin party culture is different that Russian - Dancing and festivities are as important as breathing to a Colombian woman.

I am with the understanding that most Russian men treat their women like POOP ( similar to Colombia ), especially for the men and women that would participate in the night club scene.  I imagine most American / European men do not really mix with the night club scene, because lets face it, it is sort of a tough nut to  crack.

In these places, how will find, I assume younger women that are so pretty they make water become steam.  In these places, you find men who are "players" that do not make good marriage material.

I am of the opinion that these roles are simply stages that people go through one, or twice in a lifetime.  It does not mean that these people could not grow to become happily married - or single for that matter - well adjusted people.

Also, the details:
1, how much does it cost in dollars to have a no-limit night?
2, what are the sterio-types.  For example, I do not enjoy the company of working girls - when I am the customer.  I imagine, I would look like a "target" for working girls and professional daters. 
3, and as for the local Russian men, are they happy to meet a stragner in these setting, negatively predisposed, or neither?

Please continue ...

[Gator]

I'll stop here and see if anyone seems offended at what I've posted so far before I contune on in more specific detail.     

I am not offended.  So keep going.

There is a huge difference between 1) deciding to go to a Moscow club late at night and spontaneously encountering some RW and 2) corresponding with RW listed with marriage agencies, meeting several of them serially, showing them photos of your home and lifestyle in America, and all the time have no apparent interest in marriage.

We have had a few cases reported like Scenario No. 2.  I consider it sex tourism if the man has made several such trips and not once found a RW good enough to start a serious relationship.

Scenario 1, as you describe, is like clubbing in America.  The purpose is to have some fun and see what's happening.  Neither the man nor woman has a primary goal to find a potential spouse, yet a chance meeting could develop into something serious, or it could end after a night of mutual fun.

Scenario 3 is the "professional route" as you called it.  Most call it mongering.  I don't think you need to write a lot of information on it at RWD.  I wonder how many RWD members have used it for their Plan B when Plan A failed.

I recall reading early (2002) stories in the Exile of men doing the clubbing scenario in Moscow at the Hungry Duck(?)  only to discover that the eager RW he had wooed was in fact a "working girl" demanding to be paid.  There were a couple of examples of stolen credit cards and Mickey Finns.  How much of that really happened?

[shakespear]

In these places, how will find, I assume younger women that are so pretty they make water become steam.  In these places, you find men who are "players" that do not make good marriage material.  

Just walking in to some of the top-tier nightclubs you will see such women wall-to-wall.  However unless you are reasonably fluent in Russian, or can be recommended to her by some people in her social circle, or "tusovka" you probably don't have much of a chance in establishing a relationship with her.  

But it's still fun to look and watch.

1. how much does it cost in dollars to have a no-limit night?  

Depends on the club.  Places like Rai and Soho Rooms can charge as much as 700-800pyb for a single rum and coke.  More reasonable places like PaPa's Place have beer in the 120 pyb range and Long Island Tea in the 250 pyb range.  When I get out to the upper-tier clubs, I know it will be a 10,000 - 15,000pyb evening.  

2, what are the sterio-types.  For example, I do not enjoy the company of working girls - when I am the customer.  I imagine, I would look like a "target" for working girls and professional daters.  

I'll address the whole topic of working girls in a seperate post

3, and as for the local Russian men, are they happy to meet a stragner in these setting, negatively predisposed, or neither?  

Most of the time, they just ignore you.  On rare occasions, in some of the lower end clubs, later in the evening when drunk, they can be somewhat aggressive when they hear other men speaking a language other than Russian, especially when you are trying to talk up some hot looking deyv.  But I don't want to make the problem sound worse than it is.  I really don't think it is something you have to be concerned about.  Security at the club does a pretty good job protecting ALL the patrons.  It doesn't do the club any good to have a reputation of being "unfriendly" to foreigners.  That would certainly limit the revenue the club can make.    

[shakespear]

Scenario 1, as you describe, is like clubbing in America.  The purpose is to have some fun and see what's happening.  Neither the man nor woman has a primary goal to find a potential spouse, yet a chance meeting could develop into something serious, or it could end after a night of mutual fun. 

Absolutely!  That was me in Moscow from 2000-2002.  Now, happily married, I'm now more of a "looker" and "people-watcher" when out for the evening. 

Scenario 3 is the "professional route" as you called it.  Most call it mongering.  I don't think you need to write a lot of information on it at RWD.  I wonder how many RWD members have used it for their Plan B when Plan A failed. 

Without shame, I admit to utilizing the services of a Moscow hooker back in April 2000.  I was headed to Volgograd to meet 6 different women and my divorce had been final for 4 months and I'd been in bit of a "dry spell" if you catch my drift.  My sexual tension level was rather high and I didn't want to repeat the mistake of my past courtship with a RW of over-focusing on sexual attractiveness.  So I paid my $50 (going rate at the time) and availed myself of her services for the entire night.  Best $50 I ever spent in my life and trust me the sexual tension was gone in the morning.   

I'd recommend the same plan for any man who finds himself in a similar situation.   

I recall reading early (2002) stories in the Exile of men doing the clubbing scenario in Moscow at the Hungry Duck(?)  only to discover that the eager RW he had wooed was in fact a "working girl" demanding to be paid.  There were a couple of examples of stolen credit cards and Mickey Finns.  How much of that really happened?

While there were working girls at the HD, this is a trend that happened in the later years.  When I first started going there, there just weren't any working girls there.  Generally, security kept them out.

The Mickey Finns threat is real.  I've aware of several instances of men going to apartments with seemingly sexually willing deyvs and being offered something to drink that turns out to be drugged.  They wake up the next morning in a strange location with no money, credit cards or identification.  I know of one case where the man was partially drugged and the girl let 2 RM enter the apartment and they beat him to death. 

If you do decide to go home with some girl you met in a bar, make sure the door is locked from the inside and ABSOLUTELY do not drink anything that you didn't open the sealed container yourself.     

[Chicagoguy]

I used to go to a place that translates as Blizzard [ snow ] but it has been has few years now.

It had a very nice sports bar which was my attraction. Late night NFL games. But there was also a casino and nightclub. A friend of mine from PA who was divorced but not into dating went there with friends and checked out the nightclub. While there he met a very sweet woman and they have now been married over 5 years.

Don't know if this can still happen.

[shakespear]

It had a very nice sports bar which was my attraction. Late night NFL games. But there was also a casino and nightclub.

Except in a few remote areas in Sibera, no more casinos ANYWHERE in Russia.

[kievstar]

For the 10,000 to 15,000 rubble price for the upscale clubs is that per person  - meaning 4 people at a table.  I am assuming that is no table and per person as that is not much at all. 

[tim 360]

IIRC A couple months ago Putin banned Casinos and gambling to a few remote areas in Siberia which left the Casino workers without a job.  How has that affected the Moscow nightlife Shakes?  Were the Casinos a big draw?  Will gamblers flock to the new Siberian Las Vegas and is there one?

[shakespear]

IIRC A couple months ago Putin banned Casinos and gambling to a few remote areas in Siberia which left the Casino workers without a job.  How has that affected the Moscow nightlife Shakes?  Were the Casinos a big draw?  Will gamblers flock to the new Siberian Las Vegas and is there one? 

To be honest, I never really frequented casinos in Russia.  In my impression, they weren't the Las Vegas style places - mostly slot machines with few table games.  Lots of lights and glitz though. 

I'm a table game guy, blackjack in particular.  On the few times I actually went to a Moscow casino, the table rules were so stacked against the player, I refused to play.   

There were always some prostitutes in the casions that I visited.  I don't think they stayed out of work long.  I'm sure they've moved on to compete against thehotel girls,  internet sites girls or the escort level girls depending on their level of beauty.

I don't believe you will see the siberian areas that still have legalized casino gambling emerge as an economically viable tourist drawing area like Las Vegas or Atlantic City here in the USA.     

[shakespear]

For the 10,000 to 15,000 rubble price for the upscale clubs is that per person  - meaning 4 people at a table.  I am assuming that is no table and per person as that is not much at all. 

Yes per person including dinner and buying a couple drinks for people you might meet while out.  Some of the top-tier clubs require you to buy a table. 

[OlgaH]

Will gamblers flock to the new Siberian Las Vegas and is there one?

According to the new law there are four allowed gamble zones in Russia: Kaliningrad Oblast, Altai Krai, Primorsky Krai and a zone between Rostov Oblast and Krasnodar Krai

[Gator]

Absolutely!  That was me in Moscow from 2000-2002.  Now, happily married, I'm now more of a "looker" and "people-watcher" when out for the evening.      

How did you meet your current wife?  I ask because you were previously married to a RW and evidently traveling a lot to Moscow, perhaps residing there.

[shakespear]

How did you meet your current wife?  I ask because you were previously married to a RW and evidently traveling a lot to Moscow, perhaps residing there. 

Met through the Karmen Agency in Volgograd.  www.karmen-agency.com

Didn't live in Moscow.  Made lots of friends there over the years and visit at least once each year.  Wouldn't miss the Night Flight Golf Open each September.  One of the most fun golf tournaments I've ever played.

[SANDRO43]

According to the new law there are four allowed gamble zones in Russia: Kaliningrad Oblast, Altai Krai, Primorsky Krai and a zone between Rostov Oblast and Krasnodar Krai

Curiously resembling the situation here in Italy, 4 licensed casinos only - Venice, Sanremo, Saint Vincent, Campione d'Italia - and the latter is in an Italian enclave in Switzerland, like Kaliningrad . 

[Phil dAmore]

Shake:

I've read where in some of the top-end clubs it can cost $5,000 just to get a table if you don't have the coveted VIP card, and the only way to get a VIP card is to know someone who already has one.

Ignoring the incestuous nature of this system, my question is:  Do people actually pay that amount for a table?  Or is it sort of an inside joke designed to keep the riffraff out, assuming that they even made it past the snot-nose 'Art Director' manning the door?

FWIW, I've been to PaPas place.  It's nice.  A bit cramped downstairs and as is common in Russia it lacks in functional air circulation (hasn't anyone in Russia heard of a Smokeeter?) but I had a good time there.

[shakespear]

Shake:

I've read where in some of the top-end clubs it can cost $5,000 just to get a table if you don't have the coveted VIP card, and the only way to get a VIP card is to know someone who already has one.

Ignoring the incestuous nature of this system, my question is:  Do people actually pay that amount for a table?  Or is it sort of an inside joke designed to keep the riffraff out, assuming that they even made it past the snot-nose 'Art Director' manning the door? 

They do charge for choice tables.  For the people that can afford to pay for the choice tables, $5000 is like $50 to guys like you and me.  You have to know someone or be somebody they WANT to be at their club to get a VIP card at the elite nightclubs.  At some of the lower tier clubs, all you have to do is be a recognized regular customer by the club management. 

FWIW, I've been to PaPas place.  It's nice.  A bit cramped downstairs and as is common in Russia it lacks in functional air circulation (hasn't anyone in Russia heard of a Smokeeter?) but I had a good time there.

PaPa's Place is one of the better second-tier clubs in Moscow.  Of course anyplace managed by the (in)famous Doug Steele (of Moose Head, Hungry Duck & Boar House fame) is going to be a place you're going to want to visit.  Monday Nights is Countdown Night; 3:1 drinks for a hour, then 2:1 drinks the next hour finally 1:1 drinks then back to 3:1.  The visitors best chance to pick up a drunken young deyv.  So packed with patrons they're actually standing in the streets drinking.  Tuesday Night is "Sausa Night" and the place is absolutely packed with hot looking deyvs wanting to strut their stuff.  Sunday Night had become popular as "Houkah Night".  Every table gets a free houka for smoking.   

If you know the right place to sit, the veneration is not a problem   

[Vaughn]

Of course anyplace managed by the (in)famous Doug Steele (of Moose Head, Hungry Duck & Boar House fame) is going to be a place you're going to want to visit.

Maybe, maybe not. I recall a Moscow Times' Moscow Guide quote from the Canadian Mr. Steele, which
wasn't difficult to locate...

The food doesn’t always correspond to the price. There’s a large segment of the population that doesn’t care if they’re getting quality food – they just want to be seen dropping loads of money at a chic place. Well, if they want to go to somewhere and pay $10 for a bottle of water or 500 rubles for a mojito, that’s their business. And you can’t really blame the restaurant either. As long as there are people out there willing to overpay for stuff, there will be someone more than willing to sell it to them.

He continues that rents are enormously high, and his Western heritage (IMO only) may contribute to the rates he must
deal with. Still, he's a very successful businessman who survived the wild & uncertain 90s in Moscow...

I guess I got into this East-West scene way too late to enjoy the nightlife, unless you include theatre - and restaurants
that pride themselves on quality with competitive pricing. We enjoyed the Yar very much, although it was devoid of players.

http://www.sovietsky.ru/content/eng/yarrest/legendyar/show/

[Phil dAmore]

For the people that can afford to pay for the choice tables, $5000 is like $50 to guys like you and me.

Understood, but I'm still not quite getting the idea behind the ridiculous table charge.  I mean if a person has that kind of scratch to drop on a table doesn't it stand to reason that they would be pretty well connected and are getting the VIP treatment already, thereby exempting them from the big price?  It doesn't make any sense to me.

As for the mere mortals that try to get into the top clubs, IMO they are idiots.  Why would anyone wait outside for hours on end in the hope of being selected to pay an outrageous entrance fee, then go inside and be grossly overcharged for drinks only to be subject to what (IMO) is the worst music in the world played at a volume that makes verbal conversation impossible.

Of course I am aware of the whole idea of 'see and be seen'... it's what drives the trendy clubs until they fall out of fashion, close, remodel and open again to the same people that were there before. I have no use for people who are that shallow.

I know what you mean about finding the right spot at PaPas.  The table closest to the bar on the stage side was directly in the path of the A/C.

Here are a few pics from my most recent trip to PaPas.  Somewhere in that crowd my good friend Bob G. was lining up a few dates for himself.

[Sculpto]

Of course I am aware of the whole idea of 'see and be seen'... it's what drives the trendy clubs until they fall out of fashion, close, remodel and open again to the same people that were there before.

What do I know, I'm just a cranky old guy.

I love your post Phil.  The mentality of the oligarch is IMO opinion quite disgusting.  If their behavior is representative of the excess that existed prior to the revolution then there is no wonder things went the way they did.

Abramovitch was in New York last week.  He dropped 15 k on single bottle of wine, twice, dinner for 8 cost 45k.  These people are like children with no restrictions.. they only indulge their whims and everyone and everything else can kiss non smelly arse.  And then us poor saps chase their castoffs and wonder why the girls expect to be spoiled...

There is a lesson written there..

[Admin]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Not ashamed to admit I know quite a bit about this topic.  I'm well known enough at most of the clubs that I don't have any feis-control problems, even at exclusive clubs like Rai and Soho Rooms.  Usually don't bother to pay the cover.  When in Moscow, I regularly "run" with guys like Doug Steele. 

Also know quite a bit about restaurants and other places of interest in the evening hours.

If anyone has any questions about this topic, post them here and I'll try to answer them for you.

Shakespear

Your post about "hookers" has been removed.

Please refrain from posting such materials at RWD in the future.

- Dan

[shakespear]

Understood, but I'm still not quite getting the idea behind the ridiculous table charge.  I mean if a person has that kind of scratch to drop on a table doesn't it stand to reason that they would be pretty well connected and are getting the VIP treatment already, thereby exempting them from the big price?  It doesn't make any sense to me. 

The "regulars" don't pay.  It's the wannabes that pay.

The "feis control" guys consider themselves a type of artist.  They believe that the crowd in their club every night is a work of art in progress.  Some of these dudes make 10,000 Euros per month and only work 3 nights each week. 

As for the mere mortals that try to get into the top clubs, IMO they are idiots. Why would anyone wait outside for hours on end in the hope of being selected to pay an outrageous entrance fee, then go inside and be grossly overcharged for drinks only to be subject to what (IMO) is the worst music in the world played at a volume that makes verbal conversation impossible.

Of course I am aware of the whole idea of 'see and be seen'... it's what drives the trendy clubs until they fall out of fashion, close, remodel and open again to the same people that were there before. I have no use for people who are that shallow. 

I agree to a certain extent.  I wouldn't wait on line to get into any of these places.  I enjoy people watching and these places provide one of the best environments for that activity in the city of Moscow.  There is a raw excitement about these places and the girl-watching quality is spectacular although way out of league for most on this forum (myself included). 

[shakespear]

Maybe, maybe not. I recall a Moscow Times' Moscow Guide quote from the Canadian Mr. Steele, which
wasn't difficult to locate... 

I'm sorry but your post doesn't make any sense to me.  Sounds like Doug was talking about some of the elite restaurants and clubs, none of which he has anything to do with.

Can you clarify your point please?