Have your trips to the FSU countries changed your Western thinking?

[chivo]

Mendeleyev, breath in fresh air while walking the streets of Moscow?  You might get some exercise walking 3 or 4 blocks but fresh air has been in short supply in Moscow for a number of years.   

True, but certainly no worse than Los Angeles. I always liked it when I would see people running for the daily exercise around the streets of LA during rush hour .

[acctBill]

True, but certainly no worse than Los Angeles. I always liked it when I would see people running for the daily exercise around the streets of LA during rush hour .

Or London, which can't seem to figure out how to improve air quality. 

[Anotherkiwi]

I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.

Definitely, even after two trips - the first prepared me for some things, but I found a lot of others second time round.

Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility. 

Seriously, who needs one, unless you live a fair way out of town?  I live in what is geographically one of the world's biggest cities, where the perennial complaint is the lack of public transport, especially bus routes across town (most radiate out from the city centre).  Although I'm lucky enough to live very close to a bus route which would take me directly to my office, I usually drive a car to work because it's quicker, cheaper and more convenient if I need to go somewhere at lunchtime or after work. As an aside, especially to those FSU residents who may not have seen this, local bus and train fares (no Metro) here vary by distance travelled - there's no such thing as the "one fare for all stops."

On my first trip to Russia, in 2006, I fell in love with the Moscow Metro (the frequency of trains as well as the incredible art museums they call stations).  Although I didn't use buses in Moscow on that trip I did in St Petersburg, and I had my first taste of marshrutki in Naberezhnye Chelny.  I was amazed at the number of routes in a city with half the population of my city.  On my latest trip I went to Kyiv for the first time, and was absolutely blown away to find out that, in addition to the bus, Metro and trams, there are over 500 marshrutki routes!

My western thinking definitely underwent a radical change because of these experiences - how can two countries which are supposedly struggling economically have such efficient systems in place?  I realise that most (all?) marshrutki drivers are owner-operators, but still...there would certainly be room for something similar here as a step up from taxis (diabolically expensive, whichever company you choose).

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk. 

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil...
I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure.  (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.)  Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.

We have supermarkets here which now charge for plastic bags, although most have discontinued the practice after howls of anguish from people who wanted to keep contributing to landfill excesses.  Gaining rapidly in popularity is the type of linen bag which you can take to pack your groceries in when you leave (or, in my mother's case, about eight of them!).  I normally went to produkti for my shopping, and the only proper supermarket I used was in Odessa.  Athough they had a security man on the door he never inspected my bag.

I definitely agree with the last part of the statement.  Although I found food to be somewhat cheaper than home when taken overall, there were certain items which were at least as expensive as here.  The classic for me was seeing an ordinary shoe shop in Kyiv (not a branded boutique such as I saw in St Petersburg) where even the cheapest pair of men's shoes (admittedly pretty good quality from what I could see) were about 600 UAH, nearly twice the price I would pay here.  As Xman says, how on earth can ordinary Ukrainians afford such shoes? (and I'm not trying to be superior...I really would like to know).

Apart from the public transport, which I felt could be copied back home, I'm very thankful about life here when I see the conditions that a lot of people in the FSU have to endure.

I realise that a lot of people don't have any hardships at all, but for me that made the contrast with Alex Average so much more obvious and poignant.

It also won't stop me looking for my future wife in that area - any excuse to return to such a fascinating part of the world!

[chivo]

Unless anyone spend a sizeable amount of time living like the natives and fully function as one in a particular environment can one objectively say it had a profound effect in their ways of life and thinking. It takes a while for anyone to be influenced by their new surrounding/environment to the point they are concisely affected by it and make an objective change accordingly.

A lot of truth here Matt and I hope to expound a little on this and what DB and Shosty said as well when I can find the time, but XMan had some interesting viewpoints as well.

I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression.  So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.

I believe that they have a more pragmatic outlook on life when it comes to things. Maybe it’s partly from their tragic history, but I’m not surprised by your admittance of worrying more.

If Russia has taught me anything, it’s to live life to the fullest in the moment, to worry less, and not be afraid of things I have no control over, like death/dying for instance.
 

A majority of the women I met were hard working, sincere people.  I am not sure what I expected prior to my first trip.  I suppose my Scam Detector was set on ultra high alert.

A vast majority work hard. I think most have no idea just how hard a lot of these women work. I was at L’Oreal yesterday and my client took me back into the office area on just one floor where there were about 60 women locked into work.

She went on to tell me that most of these girls work 10-12 hours a day. This is consistent with many of the offices I’ve been in around Moscow.

I should appreciate more my particular circumstances.  In my case hard work actually paid off (thus far), more or less.  For some that I met, not so much.

Good advice for everyone. The person with no shoes often complains until he/she sees someone with no feet.
 

I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible.  If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia.  Very unusual.

I would tend to agree except to the point of paranoia part, but I don’t think it’s restricted just to the FSU.
 

I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny.  To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met.  Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different.  But it seemed remarkable to me.

Fate/destiny is big here, but IMO not much different than my experience in America.

I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.  So I realized that changing a Ukrainian woman's mind about something might be even more difficult than changing an American woman's mind about something. Now THAT was an eye opening revelation.

It’s getting better as more people have access to more information through the internet, travel and such, at least with regard to maintaining good health. Changing FSUW’s minds is best done by example as far as my experience goes. I keep myself extremely fit so that my best argument. My g/f stopped smoking after a month being around me.

Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility.

I haven’t owned a car for almost 7 years now and I don’t miss at all (well except for a few exceptions). I’ve notice that my stress level from not driving has lowered considerably.

The way the metro is set up and the easy availability of getting a car on the street make a car much less important. I rather enjoy walking and just think of it as another form of exercise.

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.

A little strange at first, but at 1 rouble a pop I just go with the flow.

It took a little longer to get use to paying for things that are normally free in America, e.g., paying for ketchup at a restaurant. I remember once when I first arrived I was dining at restaurant,  I asked the waitress for a side of salsa. She brought in a little cup, it was maybe what you could put in your hand. Later after I got the check I asked what was the extra 150 roubles on the bill for ($5). She told it was for the salsa. Ouch!

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil.  But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting.  Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.  Don't know, just an observation.  A heck of a lot of security for a grocery store.  A woman I was with had a terrible headache and had to take aspirin.  Opened one of my bottles of water to sip, put it back in my cart.  A security person came over and actually made me pay for that particular bottle before I could continue shopping.  I'm not kidding. Wish I had it on video, because when I tell that story, no one believes it.

After government agencies, dealing with the security here is my least favorite thing.

I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure.  (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.)  Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.

Even in Moscow, the prices aren’t that much different than Los Angeles, as an example. Fruits are much cheaper in LA as California produces about half the country’s supply. Especially in winter here.

It goes without saying that many Americans don’t really appreciate what they have.

Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change.  Ever.  I always found myself parsing out my cash, thinking ahead, making sure I had enough small bills for taxis, etc.  That goes for Russia and Ukraine.  I find that it annoys the heck out of me over a period of time.  I was exchanging money at a bank once and they tried to give me a couple of 500 grivna bills.  I handed them back and insisted on 50's because NO ONE would want to take a 500, unless I happened to be spending more than 500 at a shot.  Of course, some folks simply don't have change for large bills.  But this applies to buying even a candy bar with a small bill at a small shop.  One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something.

I’ve tried to figure this out too. My conclusion is the shops just don’t have enough of the “right” change to give you.

What I find strange about the shops is their unwillingness to sell you something because they’re about to close. Can you imagine owning a shop and a customer wants to buy something that is a 2 minute transaction and telling them to leave and come back tomorrow?

This happened to me over the holidays at the big shopping mall Europesky. I wanted to buy my lady a dress that she liked and it was about 1 minute till closing. We were actually in the store with the dress in hand and the Manager told us to come back tomorrow as they were closing. We haven’t been back since, oh well.

Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything.  Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now.

No question!

[SANDRO43]

I’ve tried to figure this out too. My conclusion is the shops just don’t have enough of the “right” change to give you.

For a number of reasons, in the mid 1970s we ran out of It£50-100 coins (the equivalent of nickels and dimes then) and our Mint could not keep up with the demand for a couple of years. Shopkeepers were furious, so our Government - following an initiative by a Turin bank - authorised all banks to issue assegnini (mini cashier's cheques) in small denominations as legal tender in lieu of the scarce coins:

They thickened up our wallets considerably .

[ML]

X-Mans post was one of the best ever on  this  topic.

[ML]

I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.

Same here.  Didn't really change my way of thinking but, of course, exposed me to a different [mostly incorrect  :-)) ] way of thinking.

I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression.  So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.

This ties in closely with their idea that many things are just fated to happen and that they actually do have less control over outcomes than we do.

I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible.  If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia.  Very unusual.

Agree completely

I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny.  To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met.  Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different.  But it seemed remarkable to me.  

Agree

I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.  

Yes, in many ways they think not much differently than African bush people.  It has been a headache for me with more than one woman and came very close to being the cause of ending an otherwise great relationship with one woman.  Not completely home free on this issue yet with her, so it might still doom the relationship.

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.  

Actually this is a very good idea.  The outcome is to save natural resources and/or prevent damage to ecology from piling up of excess bags in trash dumps.  The USA is moving slowly toward this method also.

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil.  But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting.  Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.  

Everyone here should  be very aware that the 'general' mentality in FSU is different when it comes to illegal activity.  You only have to know that the FSU mobs have taken over the crime syndicates in USA in a relative short period of time to realize they are very good at this.  On the micro level, I have talked with managers of supermarkets, etc., and they confirm that shoplifting is rampant and the people actually see nothing wrong with it.  To 'most' people, it is just an extension of other aspects of life in FSU where you have to pay bribes to get many things done, where it was always  common to steal construction materials to build the dachas, etc.

And, in more generality, it is a reflection of the FSU people's disdain for rules and laws.  It has been commented here about the FSUW disdain for such things as wearing seatbelts, etc.  It is also reflected in the very high rate of overstaying visas, etc.

Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change.  One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something.  

It has nothing at all  to do with a shortage of coins.  It is simply another manifestation of the general rudeness of the FSU people and the lack of customer service.  This also is a major headache of mine and even causes some problems with my women.  When the clerk asks us to help make the change, I simply say 'no, we do not have any change.'  The gals I am with often reach for their purses to get some coins, and I tell them to stop it.  It is just simply ridiculous that the clerks sit there with a till full of coins and small bills, and yet burden the customer with the tedious work of doing the job of the clerk.  And this is not just a matter of my not wanting to help.  As mentioned by others, we need the coins and small bills to pay for the minibus rides, to pick up some apples, etc., from the street vendor babushkas, etc.  Save your coins and small bills for those transactions where the small business person legitimately does not have a large amount of change.

Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything.  Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now.  

I think some romanticise foreign travel and relationships too much.  You can experience these same things simply by traveling to the next city, the next state, etc.

True, many here are traveling to FSU in seek of women.  But aside from that, I find it rather humorous that many in our general population have the hots to travel overseas when, in fact, they have not  visited the majority of their own country.  For sightseeing and fantastic places to see, it is difficult to beat the USA.

Now . . . waiting for the hate mail!!!  :-))  If you really feel this way, then why are you . . . . . .  bla, bla, bla.

[chivo]

I don't particularly think that people in the FSU are any more materialistic than their brethren in the west. What many forget is that free market economics has only been around for 20 years, really less if you take into consideration that the transition wasn't exactly smooth back in the 90's and most products weren't readily available until the last few years.

These people have never really had things people in the west have owned since basically the end of WWII. I call it my "hungry tiger" theory. If you haven't been fed for ages you tend to get somewhat crazy. Who's more likely to want to eat you, the tigers in the wild or the ones who work in Vegas with Siegfried & Roy?

From my experience talking to people over the years I find people here no more materialistic than the average person in the west who likes nice things. Yes, there will always be a segment who focus on status symbols and such (go to any middle/upper middle class/rich area in America and take a glimpse) and here is no different, but generally speaking most just want things to be available to them and the freedom to choose like most in the west have already had for many years.

Give them time to play with their new toys, let them finish eating. Right now they're just working on the appetizers.

[possum]

Give them time to play with their new toys, let them finish eating. Right now they're just working on the appetizers.

Well said, Chivo.. The Russians are like a hungry two year old who is also cranky from being tired.. That is to say, a slap upside the head is probably not the best approach here.

[dbneeley]

There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy: FSU citizens tend to have distrust of banks and an appreciation for the ephemeral nature of prosperity. Also, since so many live in flats they own and thus don't have large mortgage payments, even though their gross income may be low by Western standards, surprisingly often they have a larger percentage--and often a larger amount in actual dollars--of discretionary income than do many Westerners. The incomes may be lower, but the costs of living may be even lower.

Put the two together--discretionary income not needed for day-to-day subsistence coupled with skepticism regarding the soundness of banks, and one result is a tendency to put money into "things" they have not had before.

Oh, yes--another area of distrust is in the value of their local currency. Here in Ukraine, for example, serious savers generally do so either in Euros or in U.S. Dollars. For roughly the last year, the exchange rate has been relatively stable, but the year before that was one in which the griven fell rather substantially. When I moved here full time in September 2008, the griven was about 5.5 per dollar; not much more than a year later it was 8 to the dollar, where it is hovering today.

Increasingly, people are paid via ATM card. However, the most common strategy is to remove the money from that account promptly in cash.

David

[possum]

There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy: FSU citizens tend to have distrust of banks and an appreciation for the ephemeral nature of prosperity.

It's simple mathematics, db.. The rate of inflation is 12% to infinity while the best deposit interest rate is currently around 9%..

[BC]

It's simple mathematics, db.. The rate of inflation is 12% to infinity while the best deposit interest rate is currently around 9%..

LOL, yes that would encourage spending.. and 'bump' up the economy.  Most countries doing same nowdays.

[Boethius]

There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy:

It is also that they have lived through periods where hyper inflation meant their dollar today is worth a penny tomorrow. 

I know a man who lived in Germany in the interwar period, and through WWII.  Half a century later, he still doesn't keep a lot of cash.  Everything is converted to either gold, or gold stocks.

[SANDRO43]

I know a man who lived in Germany in the interwar period, and through WWII.  Half a century later, he still doesn't keep a lot of cash.  Everything is converted to either gold, or gold stocks.

Once bitten, twice shy :

Not surprising, after having had to spend 50 bilion DM for a single postage stamp .

[2tallbill]

So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.

My marriage certainly has.

Before my first European trip I was determined not to be the loud, typical American traveler type.
I did wear cargo shorts. Wearing pants in hot weather is mostly stupid. NOTE even my wife thinks
so, or at least signs off on it. She packs 100% of my bags before I travel.

[krimster2]

YES!
it has increased my hatred of fascism, becuz I can see firsthand, the death and destruction caused by fascist leaders only concerned with their own vain pursuit of power, glory and wealth
and it has increased my anger towards masses of stoopid people who back these leaders
as we aged, Mark Twain (The Mysterious Stranger ) and I have rejected humanity for the same reason

[cameraguymn]

I first went to Ukraine (former USSR) in college in the dead of winter. I saw how crazy cold the weather was and saw how stoic the soldiers were and how the people lived through such hard conditions and realized we would not beat these bastards in a drawn out war. But now we see how resilient the Ukrainian people truly are in the war.