Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Experienced => Topic started by: 525i on March 17, 2006, 01:31:59 PM
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KenC asked from PhotoGuy in his thread what he thinks how important English abilities of a RW are now.
A woman who understand and speaks English well has an advantage, because she can communicate with men from USA, Canada, Sweden, Germany, etc. Quite many men, whose native language is not English, understand English. When she finds a man from Scotland, she will have quite a job understanding him. American English is easier to understand than British English, at least for me. Sometimes it might be even easier for her to communicate with a man who is not native English speaker. We do not know so many words than native people and we do not talk too fast, well, sometimes I talk too fast for them to understand. I use words they do not know and they will understand something I said, but not all.
What if this woman finds a man from, say Finland? OK, she can communicate with him, and with most of his friends. She is not able to communicate with his parents. Also, she needs to learn third language, which would be her everyday language for the rest of her life. I believe that this is one reason why English speaking women will choose English speaking country if she has to decide between similar men. OK, this is hypotetical.
If woman understands only basic English like, Yes, No, One, Two, etc.. then it does not matter so much if the man speaks Spanish, Italian, Japanese or English.
Anyway, the woman who speaks English, will have less problems than the woman who does not speak English.
The first FSU woman I met did not understand English much, so our communication was limited and we had some problems because she could not tell me what she wanted to tell. The second woman was Bulgarian and her English was good. No problems, other than personality. Third woman's English was in between (fair plus, good minus) and she improved with time, but in general she was quite quiet. Maybe she talks more in Russian. She liked to say jokes sometimes, but she did not know how to say them in English. If she will find someone from another country, if she wants, she will miss Russian language. She is not actively searching.
I communicated with one woman whose English was fair. Our phone conversations were tough for me, because she did not undersand what I said and she could say only simple things. I told her goodbye.
Then I had two women and both are fluent in English. The younger seemed to lost her interest in me, so it ended. The other one asked me to visit her during our second phone conversation. After few calls more and few weeks later, I booked a hotel and flight to meet her.
In a meanwhile I sent letters to other women and I started to get responses from more than one good ones. I told to one that I could come to meet her in April, and she replied that we could meet in March. I replied that it's too soon, and I suggested April again, if we want to meet after few weeks communication. I live quite close to her. By her letters her English is good, so I believe that we do not have communication problems. I hope she gives her phone number in her next letter.
I also received a response from one woman whose English might be around fair. I will know this soon. I just got her phone number. Her letters are short, but so far I have found interesting things in her. I believe that she is the best of four women I am communicating with, but I might be wrong. And the fourth woman probably does not understand English. I will see this later if this goes somewhere.
I do not know what would happen with others, if I would write my response to them. I also have favourites in one other service, but I have not written to them yet. Maybe I should, so I really could find more troubles.
I have been a "write with many" person. I have also been "write with one" and "communicate with one". This time I am for the first time "communicate with many". It's possible that by summer I have been "visit one" two or more times.
OK, this was partly off topic, but this is my thread, so I can write what ever I want in here ;-)))))
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All I know is that English was essential for me. I went in looking for any girl who fit my physical / childless / age criteria and did my darndest to learn Russian. At a certain point I knew on the one hand I really needed a girl who spoke English fluently, yet I could not close off the majority of the girls who fit my criteria. The reality is if one only looks for translators / girls with A+ English ability they really limit ones choices. So, most guys have to look for a girl who speaks none to fluent English. I would recommend a guy finds a girl who at the very minimum speaks some English, so the two of you could communicate on an elementary basic level. With time, lessons and the right attitude the girl will become fluent enough to form a more than basic relationship. As far as I am concerned its really a pig in a poke / taking a big chance with a high percent chance of failure to start a fiance visa with a girl you can not communicate well with.
Even if you can communicate well there are enough cultural differences to startle any girl. There is the homesickness factor. Generally, the younger the girl the more homesickness and cultural differences will add to her uncertainty and unhappiness. This will negatively weigh down your relationship. Little things would quickly blow up into larger things, without your ability (due to English problems) to diagnose and diffuse the crisis (if that is even possible).
So, the best thing a guy can do is learn as much Russian as possible, get a girl who at least knows some English who hopefully in a year can be English proficient enough to take a chance on her.
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No really big problem with language...
My first russian wife was speaking very little in English but have some base from French... that she have learn at school... several women over 30 year old now, have learn French in College... it was a popular language in the soviet time... when she was in Belgium, she have learn Dutch language...
My actual girlfriend speak perfectly English and Dutch... She work like translator in the import/export business... She is sometime in relation with business men from Belgium... so, no real problem...
What make the difference is that myself, i know French, Dutch and English language... some minimal base of Italian, Spain and German language... a few word in Russian but i am able to read it... since my knowledge of other language, a lot of word are similar to these of one of my know language... i forget modern greek from school ( almost never use ) and latin ;)
The big majority of American man are mono language... only english... this is a serious limit with foreign relation... yes, women need to know and learn the language of her new host country... but be able to communicate in a early stage help to build the relationship... and both partner need to work on it...
So, i don't think that the main problem is on the women side, several of them speak more thatone laguage... but US men are limited in knowledge of other language.
some example why knowledge of foreign language help :
in english, tomato... russian, помидор... read pomidor... in italian ( BC ) : pomidoro
other example : apoteek in Dutch and apteka in russian ( pharmacy )... and a lot of more exist...
Knowing several language help to understand a new one...
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To me her understanding of English when you first meet isn't important but her ability and desire to learn it after the first few meetings. I agree with those here who say that you have to have a common language to build a relationship on.
I knew my fiance was serious when in 2 months after our meeting we could converse on the phone without an interpreter. Now she's self correcting her grammer and the biggest limit is just vocabulary. I am also careful to take it slow with her so that she isn't intimidated. I also correct her and she encourages me to do so. I'm also learning Russian so in a way I know why she is making some of her mistakes.
We're now able to discuss anything from politics to shopping without much need to consult the dictionary. We generally have not had many misunderstandings as we make sure each other is understanding what we have to say and if not take the time to clarify.
I think if you're coming from a country where english isn't the primary language then it can be helpful to start things but eventually they need to learn your native tongue. For example a met a german married to a mexican woman. Initially they would speak english but as it's not the primary language for both of them it was challenging so they chucked that and began to learn each other's language.
I think it's important that the woman have the ability to have a basic conversation prior to coming over. This will aid in her making normal friends and ease the adjustment period as well as reduce the feeling of isolation.
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If a woman claims to be serious about seeking a foreign husband, but is not actively working to improve her language abilities in respect of her target destination then one has to question her real resolve and motive.
Most women of marrying age, from Russia, will have been taught English at high school and thus, except for the dimmest, should have rudimentary English. (some pupils do German or French) Any woman who has been to university will have had to complete a course ina foreign language, usually English, and thus the same comments apply, except that her proficiency should be greater!
The first few hours and days are the most significant in any relationship, this is the time when people do most of the heavy lifting in communication. No shared fluency, no shared communication. Of course, I wrote this knowing, absolutely, that some people expect very little in the way of communication with their partners and thus can get by with little or no verbal communication. The corrollary to this is that these same people also think they are master communicators...:huh:
It is not so much that English is important as that the language of the target country is being learned. One thing I have learned over the years is that these women DO have strong ideas about where they will end up and in a spooky manner, they are, if successful at all, suceesful at reaching their desired destination. If nothing else it does tell us something about the real motivations involved, but that is a story for another thread. Of course, for a woman to learn a minority language such as Finnish is, unless she lives in Karelia, probably stretching the bounds of practicality a tad, but learning German, French, Italian etc, is both possible and practical, but even so, as 525i points out, English is a useful fallback position.
I live in a country where well over half the population speaks Russian, my Russian is rudimentary and I, for sure, would not countenance a serious relationship with a woman who could not express herself in a shared language. Most sensible women are of the same mindset. Photoguy is just starting to come to terms with the enormity of the issues he and his new girlfriend face.
It is possible only to wish good luck to those who honestly believe that one can have a relationship without shared fluency and at the same time question the quality of their previous relationships if they see their current situation as being better!
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I know our relationship would not have flourished without a common language. Her english was about a 7.5 out of 10 and even still we had enough communication problems to deal with.
I remember a long time ago trying to talk to a RU woman that could not speak english at a cafe.. I was trying to ask her for the sugar.. tried italian, english, then german: zucker (phonetic: tzukahr).. She turned quite red and I think she wanted to slap me. :?
It's just asking for trouble imho..
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Many years ago I had a relationship with a woman from Saint Petersburg. Good woman, attractive, fun to be with - she spoke hardly a word of English. Over the course of a couple of years of weekends, certainly much longer than most guys who are married to their non-English speakers.
She wanted to marry a foreign guy, from the US or UK.
In the end the relationship foundered. There is much to be said for a relationship based on food, f**king and fun but one inevitable truth, if one's desires go beyond that animal level, then the relationship can not last. Another point to bear in mind is this; what happens when the woman with whom you have a relationship based upon shared use of a dictionary DOES improve her communication skills in your language and you discover that you do not actually like each other?
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Of course, for a woman to learn a minority language such as Finnish is, unless she lives in Karelia, probably stretching the bounds of practicality a tad, but learning German, French, Italian etc, is both possible and practical, but even so, as 525i points out, English is a useful fallback position.
In 2003 I communicated with a woman who was 19 years younger than me. When I called her, I talked in English and she replied in Finnish. She did not understand much, but to me her English and Finnish were equal. She just disappeared one day. Actually she went back to her small hometown.
I have communicated (by e-mail) with Russian women who understood Finnish. It was quite odd for me to write letters in Finnish. When I told to one woman that it was strange that she have studied Finnish, she told me that she did not think so. These happened more than three years ago. Later, Finnish speaking women have not contacted with me. Strange!
My ex-girlfriend was here with me two weeks and during that time she learned some basic Finnish. She wanted to, so she was serious, but unfortunately we did not match. Now I regret one thing. I should have studied Russian with her.
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If a woman claims to be serious about seeking a foreign husband, but is not actively working to improve her language abilities in respect of her target destination then one has to question her real resolve and motive.
IMO (which my wife wholeheartedly shares) It is absolutely imperitive that anytime a partner makes the decision to move abroad, that THEY learn the language of their fiance/fiancee's homeland. Everyday life will require them to communicate with more people than just their mate....
It's very nice to be able to speak some Russian, but MOST of us will never have enough exposure or practice to hold a normal conversation in Russian, let alone become fluent. This is the reason my wife suggested that I NOT take the time to learn Russian at the outset.
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If we are to assume that the unmentioned man in this question does not speak Russian, then basically what is being asked is this; "How important to a relationship is the ability to converse meaningfully?".
I won't go so far as to say that it is impossible to develop a relationship with someone with whom you can not speak, nor would I care to speculate on the odds of its success.
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If a woman claims to be serious about seeking a foreign husband, but is not actively working to improve her language abilities in respect of her target destination then one has to question her real resolve and motive.
If a women have already a target country before have find a fiance, i will have serious question about her motive...
If a women say that she wish only American man... i am not sure that she seek a men but more a way to reach the target country... by the way, a high proportion of scammer are very good in English... they know where is the money and how write sweet letter for make men crazy...
Several women when they register in agency don't already know where they will find the beloved man... a few write "not American", "not muslim", "not colored"... and only some exception write "only Australia", "only USA"... these maily because they have already someone they know who live in these country or because they have already some plan ( not always positive plan for the futur husband )...
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How important is woman's English abilities?
Not just important, but vital. Without a common language she is nothing but a pretty face.
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That's just too awful simple to understand jb.. :D
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[user=266]525i[/user] wrote:
I also received a response from one woman whose English might be around fair. I will know this soon. I just got her phone number. Her letters are short, but so far I have found interesting things in her. I believe that she is the best of four women I am communicating with, but I might be wrong.
I just ended a first phone conversation with this woman. We talked 1 hour 20 minutes! Her English is good. At one point she started to say Finnish words! She read them from a book that she had! It looks like she could learn Finnish "quite easily". Also, she is interested in Finland and she have high respect for Scandinavian men. After 50 minutes or so, she asked me to visit her in her town. I told her that I am not able to come before June because I am busy at work. I like her and she likes me. Great!
Before I go to meet her, I will go to meet another woman. Next, I will call this another woman. I am busy.
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Bruno ~ It is simply too nieve to imagine that a woman who is signed up with an agency and who is not an active home country scammer has not made a choice about where she is going to go and that the destination is not more important than the means of transport.
Most agencies are aimed at particular national groups of men. Those that are not are almost always presented in English, making it clear that either a choice of destination has been made, or a choice of language - usualy the two will be the same.
It would be very unlikely that a woman seeking, to live in Italy would register with, for example, Lifetime Partners, or Kherson Girls, but there are agencies that serve the Italian market.
525i ~ As I noted, if a woman comes from, for example, the Karelian region then it is quite likely that she might have a passing knowledge of Finnish. If she had worked in Estonia, then the same would apply. It is hard to imagine a girl from Archangelsk, or even Moscow, in the normal course of events, having Finnish as a functional tongue. Not saying it can't happen, just saying it is unlikley and that if she can speak Finnish, there will be a good reason for it, related to unspecified past events in her life. Having lived with Russian girls, in Finland, I know that for most, Finnish is not learned until after they arrive, and in many cases not even then!
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On my first trip to FSU (which was for business, not to meet FSU women) one of my business acquaintances there set me up on a date with a woman. This woman spoke virtually no English, but her teenage son spoke good English and was to go with us. I thought . . . . this could be a lot of fun. Actually, the kid was pretty cool and we got along good. But it was like a date from hell for me. We walked around an interesting place in town. The two of them mostly walked behind me, even though I kept trying to get us all together. We went into museums, the two of them would just stand in the background while I looked at items. I tried to converse, but she mostly fed him back one word responses. She never said anything spontaneous to me. After about one hour, I was about to go crazy and looked for a way to end the suffering for all of us.
So when I started to actually seek out gals, I remembered this horrible experience and had the criteria that I would not meet with any gal who needed an interpreter. I never require perfect English . . . . just no interpreters required.
Most of the over 155 gals I have met spoke pretty good English. With 10 or so, it was pretty rough going. For a while, it can be a little bit of fun with these gals who are just learning. We play around with the dictionaries and hand held translators, laugh a lot, etc. But after 3-4 dates with such types, I start to get very exhausted and tired with the dictionaries, etc. Then when I start to think that this is what life will be like with them for 2-3 years, it just gets overwhelming. I think of all the interesting things we could be doing and talking about, but can't because of the very limited vocabularies, etc. It is almost the same as dating a deaf/mute woman.
Life is just too short to have 2-3 years of struggle before the two of you can communicate effortlessly. Plus, as others have noted, not until the real communication starts can the two of you actually determine if you are going to be compatible. Romance and sex is never a problem with these gals even where communication is rough, but the other 95% of your waking hours can get to be pretty tedious.
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It would be very unlikely that a woman seeking, to live in Italy would register with, for example, Lifetime Partners, or Kherson Girls, but there are agencies that serve the Italian market.
Too much little market... site in local language have almost no visitor... so, several agency use english, the international language, the internet language...
Some examples : my previous site in English and located in Belgium, Alexia in English and located in Norway...
Take a look at these forum, in english... but several members are not from english country...
My site was in English, around 50% of visitor from US and the rest from all the world... Language of the ads mean nothing about the destination... woman search a western partner... only a few have already choice a country.
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Andrew, the woman who was 19 years younger than me, studied in Arkhangelsk. The other one was from Moscow. She was working in (Austrian) airline company. Her Finnish was quite good in her letters. Two years ago I saw one message in one Finnish/Russian site and she was a fan of Värttinä (a Finnish folk/world music group). I wrote to her and she replied in Finnish. She lives in Moscow. I was going to meet her during my visit in there, but I did not have time to meet her. I had burned two Värttinä CD-R copies that she did not have.
Sometimes I see ads in our local newspapers where Russian women search a Finnish man. I guess that they live very close to the border. They do have decided to find a Finnish man.
My sister was working in a place where local people visit. Sometimes Russian women visited in there and sometimes they do not know Finnish language. Once one was with her Finnish man, who spoke Russian with her, so he was the interpreter.
Three years ago when I was travelling in north Norway, I was in Hammerfest and I wanted to have a snack. It was outdoors. I ordered my kebab and was going to sit. I saw a beautiful woman and I asked could I sit in here. She was from Brazil. What? A woman from Brazil in Hammerfest! Then arrived her man :-( To my surprise he was a Finnish man. Then he started to talk in Finnish with me, but I continued in English, because I wanted her to join our communication. Otherwise she would have left out. She did not speak Finnish.
I agree with everyone who thinks that it is very important to have a common language. That is English in most cases.
It is almost always the woman, who will move to another country. It is almost always the woman, who will have to learn another language(s).
Last week I saw a program of Chinese men. They do have a problem finding a wife, because in some places there are no women. It's because of the one child policy and because of the value of men compared to women. If the first child is a girl, then she will not born, or she will die. In couple of years there will be 48 million men without a woman.
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A woman speaking English was a must for me. I written to hundreds of women and when when my fiancee said she may not speak English very well on the phone, I nearly dumped her. Her profile said "intermediate". She didn't do great on the phone (4 out of 10) but it was enough and now I can't stop talking about her in my trip report.:D
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It is difficult at best to understand a woman when you share a common language and impossible without it. Men that get engaged or married to women they cannot communicate with are shooting in the dark for sure. They deserve whatever happens to those that marry a stranger because they are fools.
KenC
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A woman speaking English was a must for me. I written to hundreds of women and when when my fiancee said she may not speak English very well on the phone, I nearly dumped her. Her profile said "intermediate". She didn't do great on the phone (4 out of 10) but it was enough and now I can't stop talking about her in my trip report.:D
Billy,
Most RW understate their English abilities just because they don't have confidence in speaking it. My wife was almost fluent in English when we met, but there were still some difficulties in communication for the first few years. It does get progressively better. Now after a few college composition classes, she corrects my English.:shock:
KenC
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It is difficult at best to understand a woman when you share a common [generation of life experiences] and impossible without it. Men that get engaged or married to women [half their age] are shooting in the dark for sure. They deservewhatever happens to thosethat marry a stranger because they are fools.This whole undertaking is a bit of crap-shoot, but it is a bit presumptuous to cull one element and then criticize it without considering the entirely of the relationship. IMHO.
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Racer - you must be posting on another thread today? No need for the hostility on this thread. Its about English. Calm down, relax and have a good day :).
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It is difficult at best to understand a woman when you share a common [generation of life experiences] and impossible without it. Men that get engaged or married to women [half their age] are shooting in the dark for sure. They deserve whatever happens to those that marry a stranger because they are fools.
This whole undertaking is a bit of crap-shoot, but it is a bit presumptuous to cull one element and then criticize it without considering the entirely of the relationship. IMHO.
OK, Racer, how can you even have a relationship without being able to communicate?
KenC
(BTW, I guess I do deserve to be happily married for almost 7 years!:cool:)
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This is such a no-brainer, it should require no further comment, as was said a million miles upstream; "no conversation = no relationship". How hard is that?
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jb ~ Different people have different needs from a relationship and some are simply much more desperate and will settle for much less than normal people. For these reasons one can never prove the point to the satisfaction of either the non-communicators, or the desperate hopefuls.
So, the discussion, of what to normal people is self evident, will continue becasue there will always be another desperate hopeful or non-communicator in search of his/her heart's desire.
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[size="3"]Time and again I see men who are chasing FSU girls half their age rationalize their behavior by saying things like, "this whole thing is a huge risk, why is the age part any different?" Or making Oprah-ish statements like "each relationship should be evaluated on it's own merits, there's no point in generalizing."
Since after 6 week-long trips I've got nothing to show except for a lot of photos, a depleted bank account, and a month-long case of Kuchma's revenge that still makes me shudder when I think of it, I'm certainly no expert. But it doesn't take an expert to understand that there are ways to mitigate your risk. Don't chase girls who are young enough to be your daughter, don't ignore red flags (my favorite is the oft-repeated "in person she seems indifferent to me, but her emails and phone calls are so passionate!"). I think the biggest danger in this pursuit is how GD easy it is to rationalize anything once you meet a girl beautiful enough to stop you in your tracks. [/size]
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[user=238]groovlstk[/user] ~ People are very willing to increase their risks when they are desperate, just look at what people write every day on this very board. If a man cannot find a woman, or one who will accept him, he will do what he thinks he needs to do. The sad thing is that we tend to rationalise our actions and attitudes as being sensible, I guess that if we did not we could not do these things.
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To limit yourself to only FSU women who are good at English certainly seems foolish to me as you restrict your search to a very limited selection of women. If you progress your relationship normally there is plenty of time for her to improve her English and for you to improve your Russian. If you are not willing to overcome a small problem such as language ability then what will you do when real serious problems occur.
Of course if you are a one visit wonder, who for some reason needs to propose on the first visit as you are in some desperate rush to marry as soon as possible then an English speaking FSU woman will be required, in my opinion.
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Swindoom ~ think about what you are writing!
If you met a woman in the normal course of your life, talk with her, yes?
If she did not talk with you then you would swiftly move past her, yes?
If you do not have a means to communicate, except by mediated means then you will not know anything except that which the translator allows you to know. There can be no spontenaity.
When you meet you can learn nothing of the person unless you can communicate.
But then, as I wrote above, there are those who have low standards when it comes to communication and those who are desperate enough to attempt to marry a stranger. Perhaps your suggestion that lack of any manner of communicating without intermediaries is indication of where you stand.:huh:
I have tried the way of the non-communicators and desperate men, as I noted above. perhaps this is soemthing that you need to try for yourself. The difference is that furthest I ever needed to travel was a few hours on a train at a cost of a few dollars.
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I have lived several months in Ukraine, meeting and dating girls. Most have spoken English, a few have not.
I'm now in a very successful 6 month relationship with a girl from UA. Her English is excellent. I have met her 4 times and we have had face-to-face indepth disucssion on so many issues. And 12,000 sms and lots of phone conversations...
We are working through a lot of issues before marriage that will help us succeed in marriage...
I shudder to think about marrying someone I had not had these discussions with...
So my vote is for dating and marrying girls with good English.
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If you are are a good communicator or determined enough you can communicate with anyone, they are plenty of ways of working through this initial problem.
What I am trying to say is that lack of English ability at the beginning is not important, it just means you have to make more of an effort. Her ability to learn is very important as if you do not understand each other you cannot really ask someone to get married. If you progress the relationship normally by the time you actually pop the question she will not only understand what you say but also comprehend what you say.
I can understand why many men prefer English speakers, it is one less problem/expense to deal with, but this exclusion criteria is not for me.
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Swindoom ~ You seem to be one of those 'good communicators'! The ones who think they are good at something whilst all the time they are simply not getting the message.
Kinda like being colour blind - if you have never seen red, how to describe it?
But from a practical point of view, there is simply no need to deal with women who do not have English skills. They learned it at school! Of course the dimmies, lazy ones and a few who learned German instead can be excluded. Do you seek a dimmy, or lazy girl?
I think it is safe to say that a good communicator would know the true value of spoken language.
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This board is getting very proscriptive!
There are no universal laws here like the kind you find in Physics.
When I met my wife she spoke no English whatsoever. Yes that's right. NONE.
On a scale of 1 to 10, my Russian was a 3.
Never used an interpreter. Learnt each others language. Completely wrecked three dictionaries.
In a year my Russian had progressed to where it is now. Maybe 5. Nataliya's (http://#) English maybe 7. Of that year we had spent 10 months together. Split roughly 50/50 between Ukraine and UK.
9 months after that we had our first argument in English which Nataliya won. Her comment. I was not going to argue with you in English until it was good enough to win!
Not sharing a common language makes relationship building more difficult.
WAY MORE DIFFICULT.
In my opinion translators and interpretors do not help. They make the situation worse. They establish and maintain FALSE communication. You have to work through the barriers yourselves. No one can do this for you. It is very hard, frustrating work. If you are not prepared to give this effort. Find a lady who speaks English. It is very much easier.
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Leslie,
Just curious.. how well were you two able to communicate when you married?
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Then Omsk must be a very unique place in Russia as during my visits I met very few people who spoke English and the ones that did, did not speak it too well, in fact thinking about it many people in Moscow also could not speak English.
I get the message you are writing I just do not agree with it, not only from thinking about it but from practical experience. If you are looking for someone very special why limit yourself to a minority of the women looking for a foreign husband. How many women who learnt abit of English while at school are still going to remember it 10 or so years later let alone be still good at it. I learnt French at school but I would have no chance of speaking it now as I have never had to use it since school.
Think about it the other way round, what sense would it make for an FSU woman to only communicate with western men who could speak Russian well.
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I agree with you Leslie, 100%.
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If a RW is sincerely interested in pursuing a relationship with a man from an English speaking country, shouldn't she be at least trying to learn English? I would have my doubts if she wasn't.
KenC
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Ken - the simple answer to that is 'No'.
I have asked nearly every lady in the program that question & most give me the exact same answer. Their chances of actually meeting a westerner face to face are so astronomical that most feel their is no need to waste valuable time learning English for an event that most likely will never happen.
Most know that English is an easy language to learn & feel that if they do meet a guy & sparks fly then they have good reason to learn but before that why waste the time. That is right from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.
I have many times counselled ladies & even told them that it would increase their chances as many men won't date ladies that don't speak English. The result & answer is still the same. When they meet a man & feel there is something there, they will bust their hump to learn (my Valya is a prime example) but until then they feel their lives are more importnat in other area's than chasing after a pipedream.
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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Ken, I agree. This has been my universal experience of women who are seeking a trip to an English speaking country. The committed ones will have brushed up on their highschool English. The uncommitted ones will not - no matter what excuses they come up with! Don't forget that she will, unless she learned a differnt language at school, have been taught English, if she went to university, she will have had to reach a decent level. So, this comes down to ability and what guys will settle for...
The only exception being women who have never considered the idea of a foreign husband; but these women are, to all intents and purposes, invisible to the mono-lingual, anglophone wife hunter, they are not to be found in an agency, or within the confines of the agency 'bubble'!.
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Thanks for the answer, Richard, as illogical as it is!:shock:
KenC
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Thanks for the answer, Richard, as illogical as it is!:shock:
KenC
Hey: we are dealing with Women here, Logic is not even in the equation!!!:shock::shock: Logic is a totally foreign concept to most women I have ever delt with.:noidea:
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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Ken - the simple answer to that is 'No'.
I have asked nearly every lady in the program that question & most give me the exact same answer. Their chances of actually meeting a westerner face to face are so astronomical that most feel their is no need to waste valuable time learning English for an event that most likely will never happen.
Most know that English is an easy language to learn & feel that if they do meet a guy & sparks fly then they have good reason to learn but before that why waste the time. That is right from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.
I have many times counselled ladies & even told them that it would increase their chances as many men won't date ladies that don't speak English. The result & answer is still the same. When they meet a man & feel there is something there, they will bust their hump to learn (my Valya is a prime example) but until then they feel their lives are more importnat in other area's than chasing after a pipedream.
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
Elena is a fine example of this as well. She had English in high school but had not used it for years and really saw no need to learn it until there was a reason to do so. With her work and taking care of Sergei and the limited funds available to her it would have been finacially and time prohibitive. After we met and she felt that there was a good reason to learn English she went into it wholeheartedly and arrived here with a good grasp of the language. We practiced a lot on the phone and went back and forth with the dictionary some but overall we had very good conversations.
She was the star student in her ESL classes here and is not in Advanced classes (and believe me this stuff is not easy and half of her homework I don't have a clue as to what the right answer would be) and is doing great. She works/shops/interacts with others with very little problems but is sick to death of people asking her where she is from.
So if you want to look for an English speaker by all means do so but there are a LOT of others who are wonderful that you will never know about. To each his own.
Ken
P.S. Swindoom: Omsk is a great place! Lots of untold treasures there.
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Actually it seems perfectly logical to me.
Liken it to playing the lottery. Few people actually win (Like few get to meet the Western Guy). But to increase the odds of winning you have to waste alot money playing to increase your chances at winning (or time learning the langauge). Would it be better to buy a nice meal with that money (Or do more interesting things then study a language), or waste it on what is often a futile pursuit? I see them as the people that buy one lottery ticket and hope for the best, where as the others might throw all the eggs in one basket and hope they dont go bankrupt.
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My fiancee knows German more than English since she had plans going to Germany to work. Her English was rusty since she hadn't spoken it since high school. Her plans are to be with me so I told her to take some English lessons until then. Lessons are expensive so I understand women that put off learning English until they have the need to.
There are many sincere FSU women who can't speak English but we must realize the less conversation we have with the woman, the less chance we have in figuring out if they are indeed sincere and a good match.
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Or as my wife, the resident smartass puts it, if you are sincere about meeting & dating Russian women, why don't you learn Russian!!!!!!!:shock:
Don't bother I already lost that argument a long time ago!!!:(
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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Or as my wife, the resident smartass puts it, if you are sincere about meeting & dating Russian women, why don't you learn Russian!!!!!!!:shock:
Don't bother I already lost that argument a long time ago!!!:(
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
In your situation (living in Russia) that is a most practical solution. When I offered to learn Russian my wife asked, "Why bother"? We're not going to live in Russia"!
KenC
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Well Richard puts the situation very well -
The result & answer is still the same. When they meet a man & feel there is something there, they will bust their hump to learn (my Valya is a prime example) but until then they feel their lives are more important in other area's than chasing after a pipe dream.
If she is serious about you and emigrating her English will improve quickly. If this is not happening -drop her and move on. A lot of women dream about emigrating but having the courage to do it is much rarer.
If I had my time over. I would -
1. Learn Russian from the beginning.
2. Stay out of the agency scene completely.
I found by personal experience that the good looking women who speak English in the agency scene should be avoided. Far too many catfish in this pond!
The agency interpretors (usually young women) are even worse. Exposure to the agency scene CORRUPTS. The most evil witch I ever had the misfortune to meet started out as an EC interpretor back in 96.
What this endeavor needs is time and effort - not money. You can sign up to a language school and live in a bedsit for the whole summer for the cost of a 2 week big agency tour.
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andrew as Richard and others have stated, unlike what you believe, many women inside the agency "bubble" are not looking at the agency as the only means to an end. Many women are also looking inside their countries and hope to broaden their horizons by adding the posibility of marrying someone foreign. They tend to only start to learn the language if they have other motivations (career most likely) or they're a scammer. Most will only start learning when they feel they actually have someone interested in them.
As to their "native" ability, I took Spanish in school and while I understand a bit, I can't effectively communicate with it.
When I met my now fiance she was able to understand many of the words I was saying but it's a big jump to feeling up to actually speaking in the language. After my first week with her, when she felt a commitment she began to learn in earnest. Now while she's a bit intimitated speaking to others, she and I will not have the problems Doug is with language. We haven't used an interpreter for over 6 months which includes my many visits back to her. It simply hasn't been needed.
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Ronin
1) Most young women DO have some English unless they were taught German or French at school. For myself, I do not think I would be able to be happy with a woman whose intellectual capacity did not extend to learning a second language - others are obviously of different opinion.
2) Whilst women who are signed up with agencies are almost certainly enjoying the company of local guys, in signing up with an agency they made a choice, been making that point for years -good that you and some others now agree! If they lack the comittment to even start the process of preparing for a favourable outcome then, frankly, they are not worth bothering with. (your opinion and standards may vary!)
3) If you actually participated in the process of learning Spanish, rather than simply attending classes, then you would probably find, as most who actually bothered to learn do, that one's knowledge rapidly comes back to the fore. Of course, it could be that you are seeking somebody at a similar level of attainment as yourself and so do not find it odd that somebody taught a language for 3-5 years and exposed to it, on a daily basis through TV, might not know anything. This is always a problem in a discussion; finding the level.;)
Joining an agency is a lifetime choice, even if the chances of ultimate success are quite small, the motivated woman will choose to increase her chances of success. If you want to marry a lazy or dumb, or a passively reactive woman then have fun, it is not my choice! Perhas when giving your opinion you should qualify by telling us what your criteria are?
In the end this comes down to what you will accept. Leslie, IIRC, married a woman who was not seeking a foreign man and I can understand that her English was rusty or non-existant, but how is her German? But not many here have the strength to do what Les did. Given that, it behoves you more ordinary fellows to improve your chances and thus look for a woman who is setting herself up for success not failure and with whom you can have the kind of conversation that enables a relationship based upon mutual understanding and knowledge to grow!
But, to repeat myself, there are many who are desperate enough or with low enough standards that communication can be removed from the picture.
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"But not many here have the strength to do what Les did."
So your saying that men who only select English speakers lack strength or are just plain lazy, both characteristics not desired by genuine FSU ladies.
I repeat, English ability only becomes important when things start getting serious, that is when you start to consider marriage as you both need to be very clear what the other persons says or means.
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No, most guys will not spend the time, make the committment or learn the lessons that he did.
Whether people who do not do the right things, right, are lazy, or not, does not matter. He and others like him have the strength to do the right things right.
Strength may be strength in purpose, strength in resources, strength in congnitive ability - if you are going to make a success of your planned adventure, you'd better have the requisite amounts of all these forms of strength. Compromising with yourself and then rationalising those compromises are not signs of any of these kinds of strength.
Sorry.:(
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:DFortunately for me I am not some inexperienced newbie, I have been through exactly the same situation as Leslie and now I have a wife who is totally perfect for me in every way. If I had been that narrow minded and compromised when I started communicating with her back in 2004 I would have missed out on a very intelligent, articulate and now very good English speaker.:D
It is just very disingenuous to tell newbies that non-English speaking women are somehow inferior/lower quality and should be over looked for this reason. It is perfectly acceptable for a bloke to decide to only look for English speaking women if they do not want the extra hassle/effort.
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You were lucky, you met a woman who likely forgot what she had been taught and despite your inability to use unintermediated verbal communication you met a woman that you still like. That is luck, not design and thus you have no need to take any credit for it. It is interesting that you emulated Les in every aspect of your search, I have always been of the impression that we all live individual lives.
I am sure that, in all honesty, you would not recommend seeking a woman with whom you could not share unintermediated verbal communication, over one with whom you could talk, all other things being equal.
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She did not forget any English as she learnt German.
We all need lots of luck when looking for our other half, which ever country she is from. I take plenty of credit from it as I never used an interpreter during my visits, the advantage of intelligence is the ability to overcome problems and difficult situations. I would not let such a minor trival problem be a road block to meeting someone as it is a transient problem not a permanant one.
I would tell anyone the same, do not use English ability as an issue to determine if you should make contact and find out some more information about them.
I should have written "similar" not "exactly".:brightidea:
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If they lack the comittment to even start the process of preparing for a favourable outcome then, frankly, they are not worth bothering with. (your opinion and standards may vary!)
3) If you actually participated in the process of learning Spanish, rather than simply attending classes, then you would probably find, as most who actually bothered to learn do, that one's knowledge rapidly comes back to the fore. Of course, it could be that you are seeking somebody at a similar level of attainment as yourself and so do not find it odd that somebody taught a language for 3-5 years and exposed to it, on a daily basis through TV, might not know anything. This is always a problem in a discussion; finding the level.;)
If you want to marry a lazy or dumb, or a passively reactive woman then have fun, it is not my choice! Perhas when giving your opinion you should qualify by telling us what your criteria are?
Given that, it behoves you more ordinary fellows to improve your chances and thus look for a woman who is setting herself up for success not failure and with whom you can have the kind of conversation that enables a relationship based upon mutual understanding and knowledge to grow!
But, to repeat myself, there are many who are desperate enough or with low enough standards that communication can be removed from the picture.
Andrewfin, you strike me as being one of the more articulate members of RWD and as being a one of the more educated as well. I enjoy your posts but I don't always agree with you, and sometimes I do.
I don't think a woman who does not know English is necessarily lazy, dumb or passivly reactive. Truthfully I think every person on this planet is important and that there is no one who is NOT WORTH BOTHERING WITH. I will agree we only have so much abiltiy to meet and to spend time chasing our dreams so we have to make some choices.
Frankly Andrewfin I think everyone has thier priorities and someone whos priorties are different than yours is not indication that they are desperate or low. Persoanally as far as my established critereia, I could not give a plug nickel as a preference between a girl being fluent in English or not knowing how to say a single word in English. In practice the gals I met who had no English were ones that I did not feel raport with but it was not intentional.
Unlike many guys, I don't get overly concerned with degrees or profession. In America I tended to be more attracted to educated gals. It is not important to me but I do like an intelligent gal. Intelligent and educated do not mean the same thing. Intelligent means someone is smart. Educated means they have attended school a lot. Henry Ford had an 8th grade education and Einstine flunked math. As far as profession, I am not looking for someone to support me. I don't care if she works or doesnt work. If she scrubs floors or ends up being an astro physisist. The importnat things to me are that she is happy in what she does, happy with me and makes me happy.
Andrewfin, people with different ideas and goals than you have are not necessarily desperate and low. I respect you a lot. I agree with a lot of your ideas. Just this one time I disagreed with how you expressed them.
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[color="navy"][size="3"]I think there is a lot to be said for non-verbal communication. It is a powerful form of communication that we use constantly, in our day to day interactions. This kind of communication is all about emotions and attitudes. I do look forward to the day when we will be able to talk about the differences between Manet and Monet, or about intellectual concepts, rather than living in a world comprised of only attitudes and emotions. Having said that, I still get enjoyment out of this world, watching her emotional reactions to the world around her and conveying my own emotions to her. This limited world is not as simple as people might assume.
As for her language skills, she has recently forced me to stop speaking Russian to her. She WANTS to hear it in English. She is dead serious about learning the language and serious about her ESL classes. Her attitude is encouraging and so I maintain my optimism. -doug[/size][/color][/b]
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Swindoom ~ I already noted upthread that people who did not learn English learned French or German. It is the main reason why a woman who, other than being dim or lazy, has no English. Having command f a second language is a big help in being able to deal with a third. For example, I am capable of being fluent in French, that knowledge is a big help in Russian, given the number of imported words. German likewise, but to a smaller degree. A second language greatly expands the number of common words shared by people who do not share a common language.
I find it strange that you would not agree that it was better, all thngs being equal, to choose a woman who did share a common language. It comes under the heading of things that are blindingly obvious.
TG ~ It may be that you have unlucky enough to meet the dim and lazy ones, I don't know. This is not an issue of priority, except in so far as a person who has expressed a desire to attain a goal does not do the single thing that wil make the bigget diference between success and failure! perhaps your selection criteria have been a tad skew-wif! If you want to find someone who can succeed at sharing a life with you, find someone who has demonstrated their desire and ability to do so!
Doug ~ Of course you believe that non-verbal communication can solve all your problems, you have little choice, given your circumstances. If you think verbal communication is so important; tomorrow when you are driving your bus around, don't say a word to anyone, all day, not when you get lunch, fill with fuel, accept payments or deal with your boss. See just how long you last. If you are lucky, you might still have a job at the end of the day. For ALL expressions of fact, for all communiations of ideas and concepts we use words. (well the civilised ones do!) The non-verbal stuff is about emotion and animal needs. If you are the kind of guy who gets by on grunts and finger pointing then, perhaps you have a point. Most of us are more developed than this and need a little more. But we are all different!
It is easy to rationalise sub-optimal choices, butwhen we have the time and opportunity to reduce risk, to improve the chance of success and happiness then we owe it to ourselves and those we end up living with to make the good choices.
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andrewfin,
Sorry, to me your statement about laziness seems to be ridiculous. It's the same if I'll say something like that: "All people who don't know relativity theory/how to play the piano/cannot dance in the ballet/..." are lazy. You have a gift of learning languages, somebody has given some different gift. Your opinion is really subjectively centered toward your vision of the world.
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andrewfin,
Sorry, to me your statement about laziness seems to be ridiculous. It's the same if I'll say something like that: "All people who don't know relativity theory/how to play the piano/cannot dance in the ballet/..." are lazy. You have a gift of learning languages, somebody has given some different gift. Your opinion is really subjectively centered toward your vision of the world.
Rose, you are not quite on the same wave length with Andrew here. His drift was that many people learned English in school. So, if these same gals who learned English are those who are now interested in a man from west, and they can no longer communicate in English . . . . then they are lazy.
Also, your analogy re piano, ballet, etc., is not quite on the point. English, being the language of business internationally, is of great value to anyone seeking to better themself and their family in a economic sense. While there is great joy to be had from cultural accomplishments, they do little to help feed the family.
Sorry!! :-))
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Doug ~ Of course you believe that non-verbal communication can solve all your problems, you have little choice, given your circumstances. If you think verbal communication is so important; tomorrow when you are driving your bus around, don't say a word to anyone, all day, not when you get lunch, fill with fuel, accept payments or deal with your boss. See just how long you last. If you are lucky, you might still have a job at the end of the day. For ALL expressions of fact, for all communiations of ideas and concepts we use words. (well the civilised ones do!) The non-verbal stuff is about emotion and animal needs. If you are the kind of guy who gets by on grunts and finger pointing then, perhaps you have a point. Most of us are more developed than this and need a little more. But we are all different!
It is easy to rationalise sub-optimal choices, butwhen we have the time and opportunity to reduce risk, to improve the chance of success and happiness then we owe it to ourselves and those we end up living with to make the good choices.
Andrewfin, I can not argue that for the relationship to work there needs to be a strong effort to make it work, there has to be a desire and a committment on both parts. There needs to be a lot of things but English is not one of them. It does make it easier though. You can have English and not have patience and have it work. You can't be lacking in patience and English and have it work.
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Rose, you are not quite on the same wave length with Andrew here. His drift was that many people learned English in school. So, if these same gals who learned English are those who are now interested in a man from west, and they can no longer communicate in English . . . . then they are lazy.
Well, I've "studied" English at school. During all those classes we've discussed the latest gossip, nothing more. After 3 years of such studing I discovered that "a/an" is an article! Unfortunately, teaching of English not always is so great or even acceptable. Very often, a girl who "studied" English at scholl doesn't have to recall anything, because firstly, she never knew it.
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This idea of learning a foreign language in preparation to marry a foreign guy is BULL. The only women who do this are "professional" daters and committed economic migrants. A sane guy would not touch either sort of woman with a 3 metre stick.
Many women know some English as it is the Language of business. Besides that the Teenagers want to know what Eminem is saying!!
I know some of the agency owners in Vinnitsa personally. She success rate over 4 years is less than 2 percent and more than half of the marriages are to Germans. So learning English in preparation would be a very poor strategy.
My wife was not involved in the agency scene much at all. She had been to school with one of the agency owners who persuaded her to sign up when they were on holiday together. She thought she was more likely to be hit by lightening than marry a foreign guy. Besides that she lead a very busy life. Performances 5 nights a week. Piano lessons during the day. After we met it was a different matter. Natalia committed to learn English and she did. Her English is now way better than my Russian.
The lazy people are the MEN.
What percentage of the members of this board speak Russian well enough to travel in FSU UNASSISTED (i.e. no Minders/Fixers) ? I reckon we are talking single digit percentage and I think the majority that could are either European or already married!
I find this situation weird!
The guys here want to marry a woman from another culture yet make little or no effort to learn the language?? How can you understand the culture if you can't even read a newspaper? How are you going to communicate with your wife's family and friends?? Telepathy??
My personal opinion is that NOT making a real effort to learn Russian could haunt you later if you succeed and marry. It also shows disrespect for your wife's culture.
On a lighter note - My daughter's first word was Russian.
Mel'atchko Toma?
(Turns her head, looks at me shaking a bottle of formula)
Da! (Slapping the tray of her high chair) Da! Da!
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Leslie,
Re languages, the couples we know here first communicated in english then switched to italian after a time. All the men now speak at least rudimentary RU and can carry on basic conversations. Most young Germans can usually communicate pretty well in english.
Yes.. us guys do like the easier softer way..
Don't have to learn the language
Don't have to pack only 20 kilo's of our life and get rid of the rest.
Don't have to give up family and friends for prolonged periods
Don't have to adjust to a new environment
etc etc..
Quite egoistic indeed.. but in the end what goes around usually comes around.. it's sorta like getting on a horse, thinking it will be easier to do a saddle jump from behind like indians in movies do.. just try! ouch!!!
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btw kids are great.. our 2yr old spits out a bit of english, RU and italian but Da! and eto! are absolute favorites. Understands all three languages quite well.
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Photoguy, non-verbal communication can't solve even some of the most basic things. For example ordering dinner in a language where you can't read the menu and even can't understand the person explaining your choices. I did this a bit in some of the restaurants where they lacked an English menu.
Non-verbal communication can supplement communication but cannot supplant it. For example suppose your fiance starts smiling. Without language you won't know why.
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TG ~ My guess would be that you can not read cyrillic, if you could, you would know that French is a significant part of Russian, as is English and German. Languages very often share words from one to another so knowledge of one is a benefit when it comes to a second. It is also true that learning a second language does help when learning or a third.
Leslie ~ When you say that sharing a language is not necessary, I think you might be forgetting your own experiences? Also, whilst it is polite to learn the langauge of our interlocutor, given that she is planning to come live in OUR world, a good knowledge of our language is a prerequisite of success. Of course if a woman is in an agency that palce most of its women with Germans then learning German makes sense, but it is likley that if there is such an affinity, that the women probably learned German in school. We are talking about langauge ability and this board is largely populated by people from North America. I can imagine the same thread on german speaking board in relataion to German.
Let's put this the other way around...
If you guys wanted to work abroad, for example, in China, what would you do to prepare yourself and to make it possible, or likely that from a pool of candidates that you might be chosen?
Might you do some or all of the following?
1 - Find an employer who has business in China?
2 - Develop an interest and understanding of business culture in China?
3 - Start to learn the language?
-and which might be the most important success factor? Perhaps the last?
So, when a woman makes a choice, to try to find a foreign guy, might it not make sense that she does one or all of the following?
1 - Find a marriage agency that has a clientele from a country that she is interested in?
2 - Develop an interest and understanding of how things might be in the target country (s)?
3 - Start to learn the language?
-and which might be the most important success factor? (IMHO short term joining an agency but long term, learning the langauge)
Rose ~ Albert was correct! Language uptake is one of the most significant success factors for life in a foreign country. Learning the piano is not. You were taught a second language at school, you probably were not taught the piano. You have daily opportunities to practice your English, not so for the piano, or relativity theory or brain surgery or whatever. It costs almost nothing to watch tv, books on English are so cheap that there is no excuse not to buy a basic language primer.
To return to the hypothetical I proposed above; if you were planning to employ somebody to work in your firm's Shanghai office, all things being equal, would you select the guy who claimed to be very motivated and interested in the post, but who had done nothing to back up his words, or would you instead choose the guy who had learned how to say hello/goodbye and to introduce himself? A very significant part of this process is selecting not only a person who can stand to be with us, but who can succeed in her new environment. It is no good choosing hte most loving, attentive and beautiful woman who simply can not stand living in our home environment! To return to the business analogy again. It is reckoned that over 70% of all overseas postings of Americans fail, msot fail during the time abroad and some fail on return (reintegration issues) How do you think that the women that you guys choose to marry are going to be any better than your countrymen at living in their new environment?
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[size="3"][/size][size="3"]On a lighter note - My daughter's first word was Russian.[/size]
Not so lighter note.... it simply show the need of know some basic russian language...
A Russian mother will learn Russian to his child... and this remember me problem i have know with Anastasia and his mother ( my ex-wife )... when they have argument together, they make it in Russian and i was not able to understand... with time, it is a little girl from 5 year old who have try learn me the base of Russian :D since her mother was not wishing learn it to me...
Knowing some base of Russian can be interresting when you have argumemt with your own wife too... When the emotional level become high, she will use more easily his mother language : Russian...
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It is just very disingenuous to tell newbies that non-English FSU speaking women are somehow inferior/lower quality and should be over looked for this reason.
"Target countries", so now FSU women should compromise and limit themselves to certain countries, many FSU women wish to remain fairly close to home and live in western Europe, which language should they start learning then. Maybe English speaking guys should limit their search to very good English speaking, well travelled FSU women, who live in Moscow, have a good job so can pay for their own travel, and have a broadband connection with pc plus webcam at home. That way you have far less effort and money to spend in finding your perfect partner, nice and easy just like real life.
Foreign language ability at the very beginning of comunication is not important, once the FSU lady has decided that something serious may happen with the guy she is corresponding with then she should start to sort out learning the language of her potential husband, if required. That's when you find out if the woman is lazy or a dummy as her attitude and ability to learn a new language become very apparent. Once again I repeat, being able to communicate with each other becomes very very important when the relationship reaches the talking about marriage stage.
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TG ~ My guess would be that you can not read cyrillic, if you could, you would know that French is a significant part of Russian, as is English and German. Languages very often share words from one to another so knowledge of one is a benefit when it comes to a second. It is also true that learning a second language does help when learning or a third.
Sorry to disappoint Andrewfin you but I can read cyrillic just fine. I guess you are right that French and Russian share a lot of commonality. After all Taxi is about the same in French and Russian so if I had not learned French, I might not have known that. The same is true for Cafe. Humm Andrewfin is right.
Frankly Andrewfin, you strike me as a very intellingent person with some very strong opinions. My biggest difference with you is that you seem to think that your opinions are the "only way" Sorta like a "my way or the highway' type of thinking. I, on the other, hand think we are all unique individuals and things that may not work for one will work fine for another. I still feel if a gal does not know English is is not a reason to exclude her. I still believe that if somene wants to make thier dream come true they will work hard to have it happen.
Personally I went into this not caring if a gal spoke English or not. Not caring if she was a curvy blond or a slim brunette, Not caring if she was an rocket scientist, a teacher, a sales person, a street sweeper. Not caring if she was 21, or 41. Not caring if she was from Moscow, Lugansk or eastern Siberia. I just figured someday I would find the right one and would know it when I did. I hope I may have done that now. Time will tell. I am not foolish enough to think that the criteria that is right for me is right for everyone.
I will add one after thought here. You said you guessed I could not read Cyrillic. Reading cyrillic is not the same as knowing Russian. When I said I could read cyrillic, I can. I was not saying I could read Russian. I can not. My Russian vocabulary is probably around 1000 words which does not get you far.
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It is just very disingenuous to tell newbies that non-English FSU speaking women are somehow inferior/lower quality and should be over looked for this reason.
"Target countries", so now FSU women should compromise and limit themselves to certain countries, many FSU women wish to remain fairly close to home and live in western Europe, which language should they start learning then. Maybe English speaking guys should limit their search to very good English speaking, well travelled FSU women, who live in Moscow, have a good job so can pay for their own travel, and have a broadband connection with pc plus webcam at home. That way you have far less effort and money to spend in finding your perfect partner, nice and easy just like real life.
Foreign language ability at the very beginning of comunication is not important, once the FSU lady has decided that something serious may happen with the guy she is corresponding with then she should start to sort out learning the language of her potential husband, if required. That's when you find out if the woman is lazy or a dummy as her attitude and ability to learn a new language become very apparent. Once again I repeat, being able to communicate with each other becomes very very important when the relationship reaches the talking about marriage stage.
I believe that some women have target countries, and some even say it in their ads. "Only from Japan", "only form Italy", "only from USA, because my sister lives in there", etc. Sometimes they even write their ad in French, or in German. It's then quite clear what is their targer country or area.
Many have quite wide range of target countries, they usually say "a man from USA, Canada, Europe or Australia". If their target is so wide, which language to study? Would Swedish be a good choice? Maybe, if she limits her search to Sweden, Norway and Denmark. If you do not know, Norwegian is quite similar with Swedish. And with Danish too, but with more differences. What about Spanish or Portuguese? The most logical decision is to study English. It will open the whole world for her.
I believe that for the woman the man's English ability is important too. Especially, if the man is not native English speaker. It tells to woman that this man is capable. Maybe she then starts to think that every man in this country speaks English as well or as badly as he does.
I believe that common language is important from the beginning. I found one woman. Her English is quite similar with mine. We had a good communication on a phone. We agreed to meet each other (she invited me). We decided the dates and I booked a hotel and flights. I called her agian few times and during the communications I started to see things that I did not want to see in my future wife. All this happened by communicating with her on the phone. Not meeting her. I think that this would not have happened by e-mails. I would not find this out if there would be interpreter involved. Her attitude and few other things were a turn offs for me.
If I would meet this same woman without knowing what I now know about her, how long would it take to see it? How long from her would take to learn a language to say things she thinks? Would we be married and then I realise her true nature?
This is one of the reasons I decide to search only women who can communicate with me and express their thoughts. She does not need to be fluent. Fair is fine, if she will understand most of what I say and she can say most of the things she want to say.
Also, when she can communicate with a man, she will understand man's thinking too. She will have much more pieces in her hands to build the buzzle. How can she build the buzzle, if she does not have enough pieces to build from? She builds some kind of dream image and it collapses when she realises what kind of pieces she actually has in her hands. When she has enough pieces, then she has a possibility see the buzzle before the buzzle is finished. It's easier to see will she like the buzzle or not.
I have four women now and I will drop one of them. Next I continue communication with two of them by phone and I try to figure out the good, bad and the ugly, I mean common interests and lifestyle. We have already agreed to meet each other. I think my first meeting will be after two weeks. The third woman is by e-mail and so far she seems good.
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I believe that there are a lot of gems around there who do not speak English. They are harder to realise, because lack of common language. You can realise something by translated e-mails and by interpreters, but their great personality that match with yours, can be a hidden treasure.
If you look for example women from Barnaul. I believe that there are women with great personality, but most of them do not understand English (in profiles Basic level). I do not believe that they are lazy. They just do not have need for the English language.
And, in Russia and in Ukraine, the English programs/movies etc are dubbed in Russian/Ukrainian. TV does not teach you English as it does for example in Finland where we use subtitles.
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[user=266]525i[/user] wrote:
I believe that there are a lot of gems around there who do not speak English. They are harder to realise, because lack of common language. You can realise something by translated e-mails and by interpreters, but their great personality that match with yours, can be a hidden treasure.
If you look for example women from Barnaul. I believe that there are women with great personality, but most of them do not understand English (in profiles Basic level). I do not believe that they are lazy. They just do not have need for the English language.
And, in Russia and in Ukraine, the English programs/movies etc are dubbed in Russian/Ukrainian. TV does not teach you English as it does for example in Finland where we use subtitles.
There is no doubt that there are great women in Russia that cannot speak a bit of English. That is a no brainer. But it is so much more difficult to judge them in any way but their physical appearance without a common language. I don't put too much faith in emails that are translated either. Are you seeing the personality of the woman you are pursuing or that of the terp? You just cannot know for sure. Other than the translation of very basic information, I think that correspondence through a third party is a crapshoot.
KenC
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Ken is right, how the hell do you make an informed choice about somebody with whom you can not communicate?
Swindoom ~ if a woman joins an agency that focuses upon English speakers then, perhaps that might just be a clue as to where she might end up, want to end up or with whom she might end up. If a woman joins a marriage agency that focuses upon foreign guys, well, guess what, that is a decision, a choice. Of course, as a sensible person, I expect people to prepare for the outcomes that they overtly choose. Of course others are less demanding.
If you choose a woman who joins a marriage agency that features English speaking men, in English speaking countries, and that woman has gone through her schooling and managed to forget all she was taught, or having made the choice about destination, decides to do nothing to prepare for success, by starting to learn, or realearn English (or German, or French, or Italian), then I suggest that she is lazy and that by not preparing for a favourable outcome she is demonstrating a significant lack of cognitive ability. But of course, if you can not communicate, you will not know just how dim or lazy she is for some time. (Don't ever forget why they want to marry you foreign guys in the first place)
TG ~ There are many ways to attain failure, often there is only one way to achieve success. Am I right about the benefits of a woman with whom you can share a language - Frankly it is REALLY hard to suggest that a woman who can not speak your language is a better choice, from the point of of a successful long term relationship. That is not to say that one can not succeed, but having done it both ways, I know were the sensible approach lies. I would ask you the same question, in different words as I did Swindoom: If you had your choice of one from two girls, twins, one of whom spoke no English and the other who spoke a little English, which would you choose to get to know better?
The reason there are so many French words in Russian (and there are LOADS) is that during the 18th and 19th century many, if not most of the aristocracy spoke French and to a lesser degree German in preference to Russian. There are whle blocks of vocabulary that are from these languages and in the case of naval usage, Dutch.
If you can not read cyrillic, you can not read Russian. If you do not know Russian words, knowing the alphabet does not help you much, but if you can read cyrillic one of the first things you notice is just how many imported words there are. If you have an active vocabulary of 1000 words, in Russian, then you have a greater degree of proficiency than I, but you and I can both read and learn.
525i ~ I agree with most of what you have just written. There are gems who speak no English, but they should not be in agencies, promoting themselves to English speaking guys. When they do not prepare for their stated desires they are making a statement about themselves and demonstrating their less than 'gemness'.
Secondly, English language TV programmes are broadcast with the English soundtrack and overdubbed. DVDs almost always have an English soundtrack, unless they are from the Baltic markets. It is not too difficult to hear the English and listen to it alongside the Russian overdubbing.
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Ken is right, how the hell do you make an informed choice about somebody with whom you can not communicate?
You both make a big assumption: an informed choice. ;)
JP
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Whoops sorry JP. My mistake!:shock:
Go for it guys! Who needs to know anything about anything?
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Go for it guys! Who needs to know anything about anything?
My thoughts exactly.
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TG ~ There are many ways to attain failure, often there is only one way to achieve success. Am I right about the benefits of a woman with whom you can share a language - Frankly it is REALLY hard to suggest that a woman who can not speak your language is a better choice, from the point of of a successful long term relationship. That is not to say that one can not succeed, but having done it both ways, I know were the sensible approach lies. I would ask you the same question, in different words as I did Swindoom: If you had your choice of one from two girls, twins, one of whom spoke no English and the other who spoke a little English, which would you choose to get to know better?
The reason there are so many French words in Russian (and there are LOADS) is that during the 18th and 19th century many, if not most of the aristocracy spoke French and to a lesser degree German in preference to Russian. There are whle blocks of vocabulary that are from these languages and in the case of naval usage, Dutch.
If you can not read cyrillic, you can not read Russian. If you do not know Russian words, knowing the alphabet does not help you much, but if you can read cyrillic one of the first things you notice is just how many imported words there are. If you have an active vocabulary of 1000 words, in Russian, then you have a greater degree of proficiency than I, but you and I can both read and learn.
525i ~ I agree with most of what you have just written. There are gems who speak no English, but they should not be in agencies, promoting themselves to English speaking guys. When they do not prepare for their stated desires they are making a statement about themselves and demonstrating their less than 'gemness'.
Secondly, English language TV programmes are broadcast with the English soundtrack and overdubbed. DVDs almost always have an English soundtrack, unless they are from the Baltic markets. It is not too difficult to hear the English and listen to it alongside the Russian overdubbing.
As far as many ways to fail and only one way to acheive success, I can't see that at all. There are many ways for both. You can be president of the US which some would consider a great sucess and still be a failure. You can succeed in many occupations. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of FSU women, success and failure could have thousands of possiblites. You can be a street sweeper earning a low wage and married to an ugly, overweight woman and still be a terriffic success.
Humm, two identical twins, one speaks English one does not. Can I bring them each in on a K-1 to try them out and then tell you.:noidea: Can I go someplace where they have polygamy and keep them both:clapping:
Yes, I have to agree the communication would draw you to the one with English.
Does that teach us anything? No. Suppose andrewfin, the world almost ended. You are the last man and there are two woman. One is beautiful beyond belief, built like a brick whatever, long flowing blond hair a beautiful smile, spends all her time bringing you things to eat, rubbing your back, smiling at you and holding your hand. Doesn't speak a word of English. The other girl still alive weights 350 pounds, had a face that would stop a truck. yells at you all the time, actually kicks the sh!t out of you if you don't do as she commands. Speaks perfect English. Now the laws are caput but your religious upbringing tells you that you must pick one and only one for your wife so the human population of the world can continue. You are going to take the English speaking one of course because you could not communicate with the other, Right.
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Ken is right, how the hell do you make an informed choice about somebody with whom you can not communicate?
Very simple... learn communicate...
How do you make friend if you never speak to stranger ;) ... similar problem...
Language is not the main problem... if both are ready to start a basic dialogue AND give the time needed for learn a common language... a relationship is possible...
Of course, people who speak only English, who visit a women during one week, where the women don't know the language have not real relationship...
Time is a keyword... same in own country, with women who speak your own language... courtship can take several month, time needed to know each other...
I am not like TurboGuy... i know maybe 300-400 words of russian... but i am able to make my own shopping in Russia ( in little open market ), take taxi, ask in Nikolaev the bus to Odessa, etc ... language was never a problem for me in all my visit in FSU... same in little village...
And if you think that word is the only method of communication, ask BC about Italian people... they speak more with hand that with mouth :D
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Go for it guys! Who needs to know anything about anything?
Nobody, of course! Here's how it works:
1. Surf to page 2 of Olga_Smokinhotkova.com, profile 27.
2. Fill out the form, and buy her address online using your mastercard.
3. Send her a letter online, asking her to send you some photos.
4. Photoshop those pic's into a picture with you, so it looks like you're together.
5. Hire a lawyer to fill out your k-1 forms. You can get one via legalmatch.com
6. Send money for plane ticket when the time comes.
7. Call a taxi service and have them pick her up from the airport.
Wait until day 731.
Rinse and repeat.
JP
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Well I gotta say I am totally insulted & a bit pissed at the attitude I'm reading here!!!
I had a big long thread written & decided to delete it as it would serve no purpose other than to point out that intelligence & learned on this board don't mean crappola. But gotta say thanks for insulting me & my wife, I really appreciate that.
I will say if you believe Andrews line of bullsh!t then you are in for some big disapointments & will be passing up some of the best women you will ever have the pleasure to interact with.
I will remind you of 1 statistic however - 100% of all women scammers knows the language of those she is scamming!!!
Thats all I'm gonna say on the matter as I'm gettin' to pissed to think straight!!!:burnedup:
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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TG ~ Answer the question. When you have the answer then my point is made. It really is that simple. Making a joke is not an answer.
Richard ~ Think about it...
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Andrew,
We have known each other for a while. When you speak from personal experience your views are usually relevant and germain.
You have little experience of using MOB agencies (None?). How many hundreds (or thousands!) of dollars have you spent with the agencies to organize dates? Again I reckon close to none. You passed on Marc Dayton's offer to visit LTP. You have virtually no personal experience of using agencies.
You should examine the utility of your views concerning "preparing by learning a language" in conjunction with Bayes Theorem. Maybe then you will come to the correct conclusions via academic reasoning.
RICHARD (RVR) IS RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG.
By the way Bruno Your simple English fragment -
"Very simple... learn communicate..."
Is some of the best advice given on this thread :D
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Richard ~ Think about it...
I did think about it Andrew & my conclusion is simple & cannot be refuted. 95% of the women I have met or comunicated with in a foreign country who have good to excellent English skills (I say English but it likely applies to all languages) has an agenda & top of the list is not finding love but rather a mule. You can argue till your blue in the face & insult me & my relationship all you want but facts do not lie.
100% of women scammers know the language of those they are scamming, period! This is fact. If a woman cannot speak read or write the language then it is pretty hard to scam you now isn't it. I submit that yes at first you may have to use an interpreter, so what. In the beginning of a relationship you are not discussing phylosphy & crap & the need for excellent communication is not needed. However as the relationship matures & you learn her language & she learns yours then you can advance your communication skills.
People were communicating for hundreds of years without a spoken language other than gunts & pointing as you so aptly put it. There are many forms of communication besides speaking. I can tell more from a womans body language & facial expressions than I can from what she speaks, words can lie, body language cannot. That is communication & non verbal. If your hypothisis is correct then both Leslie & I are in relationships that are on the rocks & doomed to failure. I submit your hypothisis is incorrect & anybody who has met & seen my wife & I together will back that up 100%.
I also submit that perhaps your inability to find yourself in a successful relationship with a foreign woman, be she Russian or otherwise, is because of your inate capacity to judge people by what they say not by what they communicate non verbally. By limiting yourself to women who only speak fluent English, not only are you limitng your chances in the longrun of finding a compatible mate but in your case being the intelectual you are, I also submit that even finding a woman in your own country & native language that could meet your standards would be next to impossible or to say the least very difficult. By adding that level of crteria to a Russian Woman you are holding her up to standards she can never meet, therefore sabotaging your chances of finding a woman that could turn out to be the best one for you. No foreign woman who is not a native speaker of English will ever measure up to your standards, period.
To the newbies I say this. Do not buy into this bull. Had I & Leslie & many others done so, we would not have found the treasures we now have. I also say that it has nothing to do with whether or not an agency is involved. If the agency is honest then the people who work there are honest & they will do all they can to help you. Leslie did not meet his lady through an agency, I did, & we both have the same results. It is not the method in which you choose to persue this adventure that counts. It is the amount of time, effort & patience that you put into it that will bring the desired results.
Sure many such relationships fail but 99% of the relationships I have read about or been a party to that have failed have been those who have jumped into it too fast. The so-called one week wonders & even had these been women from their own country, they would have failed because they didn't take the time to get to know each other. The ones that have lasted long term & then split as a few have, were for reasons that would have caused the split even if she wasn't a Russian Woman. Don't set yourself up for failure, take your time & get to know her, don't choose to persue a woman 20+ years younger than you & don't limit your choices to only those that speak your language well & you may just strike gold in them thar hills!!!:D
JMHO
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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95% of the women I have met or comunicated with in a foreign country who have good to excellent English skills (I say English but it likely applies to all languages) has an agenda & top of the list is not finding love but rather a mule. You can argue till your blue in the face & insult me & my relationship all you want but facts do not lie.
I think you've just insulted my wife.
I would argue that there are lots of people, women included, who know and use a second language for purposes other than subterfuge. As for scammers knowing English, I've read all these scam letters posted on the black lists and my best guess is they are translated using one of the translation softwear programs. Those people don't know English as well as my Labrador.
I also think you should question why so many Russians study English in school. Did you ever think about that? I know the answer, does anybody else? Sometimes it helps to dig a little deeper into the Russian culture before handing out blanket assessments like that.
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I can't even understand women who do speak English.
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I also think you should question why so many Russians study English in school. Did you ever think about that? I know the answer, does anybody else?
Yes, I do.
In the old days of the USSR, they exported their language into the surrounding countries they conquered. There was a need to have a common language for communication.
Today, English has become the world's second language. It's the most practical language to study in school, and that's the simple truth.
My experience with dating Russian girls is that since the fall of the USSR, many FSU younger girls now know English to some degree.
Older girls (past 32 or so), are not as likely to speak English.
I have dated lots of FSU girls. It is a BIG advantage if they speak English. Marriage is such an important step that I think you need to have lots of DIRECT talk with one another before taking that giant step.
So, responding to the topic of this strand, "How important is woman's English abilities?" I'll say VERY IMPORTANT.
Yes, we have stories here of vets who navigated the waters of marring a woman with no English. But consider the odds....and ask, given a choice, what should I do?
The answer is to play the percentages and go with the girl who speaks English. Just like a baseball manager who wastes an out with a sacrifice fly to move the runner into scoring position, the percentages here say date the girl who speaks English...
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Today, English has become the world's second language. It's the most practical language to study in school, and that's the simple truth.
Too simplistic. My wife is not one of the "younger" girls, yet her English was excellent. There is another reason many people who went to school before the fall of the USSR studied English.
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Today, English has become the world's second language. It's the most practical language to study in school, and that's the simple truth.
Too simplistic. My wife is not one of the "younger" girls, yet her English was excellent. There is another reason many people who went to school before the fall of the USSR studied English.
[/quote]That was then; this is now.
I hold to my answer of why today's students study English.
But JB, you can enlighten us as to "why" some girls studied English prior to the fall of the USSR... :-)
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That was then; this is now.
With that as the caveat, I guess you don't really want to know.
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Mr. Michelangelo,
A gentle hint: they wanted to know what the Beatles were singing!
More seriously, Lilya and her schoolmates were very curious about Western culture and believed learning English would assist in their understanding of it...
Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine
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Too simplistic. My wife is not one of the "younger" girls, yet her English was excellent. There is another reason many people who went to school before the fall of the USSR studied English.
Your wife have a very high level of education... and in some domain, English is a need... by example, can you imagine somebody working with computer and not knowing english !!! Impossible since the basic instruction ( code ) are english words...
Previous to the fall of USSR, the main second language was German... and for several republic, people was already with two language... national language and Russian...
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95% of the women I have met or comunicated with in a foreign country who have good to excellent English skills (I say English but it likely applies to all languages) has an agenda & top of the list is not finding love but rather a mule. You can argue till your blue in the face & insult me & my relationship all you want but facts do not lie.
I think you've just insulted my wife.[/quote]
I know both you and Richard, and let me try to correct this before we go on for another 5 pages. A large percentage of the English speaking women Rvr has met in foriegn countries have also been associated with 'the Industry', be it as a client or a 'terp. A large percentage of those that jb has met (including Etna) do not belong to this group. If Rvr will allow, let me rephrase what I think he meant to write:
"95% of the women I have met or comunicated with in a foreign country who have good to excellent English skills and are actively contacting Western men (I say English but it likely applies to all languages) has an agenda & top of the list is not finding love but rather a mule."
So, I'm sure that no insults were intended.
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Your wife have a very high level of education... and in some domain, English is a need...
At last, someone knows the answer. The Former USSR's education system prided itself for turning out world class scientists, mathematicians, and physicists. These fields of study require a better than average knowledge of either English or German, physics especially is primarily in English.
Andrew has said it often, only the very dim, those who either did poorly in school or did not attend an institution of higher learning at all, will not have some recollection of English. Why would anyone want to marry just a pretty face with an empty head? With a just little work on your part, you can have both the pretty face and an intelligent woman. Trust me, it's a better combination.
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Richard ~ It is I think true to say that you associate with but a slice of women, through your business and through the friends of your wife, who share similar interests to she.
Most young women will have learned English at school and those that did not will have been taught another language. They are exposed to English on a daily basis. There are therefore some inferences that can be drawn from a woman's claim to not be able to speak English. If she speaks some German or French, fair do's, had she been taught Engolish she would have been, as capable in Englishas she is now in French or German. If she was taught English at school and now claims not to have any command of English then one of three things is true:
1) She lies
2) She was very lazy at school and did nothing to learn.
3) She is very dim and although she worked hard, she absorbed nothing.
There is not a fourth alternative, but none of the three above alternatives are particularly endearing are they?
Now, intelligence as well as being absolute is also relative. A person of average intellectual capacity will seem bright to the subnormal and an average person will seem positively slow to a bright person. So, to a degree, we may be arguing about apples and oranges here. Somebody who is of limited cognitive ability will see no shortcomings in a person similarly blessed, but to another observer, both people might seem a tad dim... I guess this means that when I suggest that a person wh was incapable of benefitting from their school lessons might not seem dim to some, or not even lazy.
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I have some very good news. I met a man in DC who has a small marriage agency and he is visiting Ukraine in a week. He spoke with my wife on the phone for about 20 minutes IN ENGLISH and he said her English is very good. She does not give herself much credit for the hours of reading and studying on her own. She is taking ESL classes again and is doing very well.
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Andrewfin,
Your posts in this thread are very insulting and patronising, according to you not only are non-English speaking FSU women dumb/lazy but men who find happiness with non-English speaking FSU women are even dumber/lazier.
You are just as likely to find a dumb/lazy FSU woman who speaks English as one who does not. Very few women in England speak another language well so by your defected logic they must be either very stupid or very lazy.
If you want to miss out on the perfect woman for you just because when you start communicating she cannot speak English to some abritary standard decided by you then best of luck to you but stop making sweeping generalisations about non-English speaking FSU women based on your limited experience. Stereotyping is not a sign of intelligence.
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No jb I did not insult your Etna, she is likely in the 5%.
Andrew has said it often, only the very dim, those who either did poorly in school or did not attend an institution of higher learning at all, will not have some recollection of English. Why would anyone want to marry just a pretty face with an empty head? With a just little work on your part, you can have both the pretty face and an intelligent woman. Trust me, it's a better combination.
I disagree. I don't speak Russian but I understand it quite well. Many women here are the same, they do not speak English but they do understand it.
The fact that they took it in school is irrelevant considering most English teachers here are Russian themselves & have no better English skills than many of those they teach. And once leaving school they never speak conversational English but always Russian with their friends & family, they soon lose the ability to speak it.
I agree that if they are actvely persuing an English speaking man that perhaps learning some English would increase their chances, however, they don't see it that way. Maybe the younger ones are more able to communicate in English 25 & under at this point in time, but these are not the ones that are going to marry most men in this endeavour simply because most men looking are too old for that age bracket. Therefore that puts you right smack in the group with limited English comprehension.
Do as you will, you will anyway but heed my warning. Many times on many boards this has been hashed over always with the same result, to each their own. In the end the proof is in the pudding & as I an somewhat dim & lazy & therefore so is my wife, we will live our happy little dim & lazy lives & be content to know that at least we did not follow such silly advice.
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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This discussion was prompted by Photoguys' thread. In his case it seems to me that there would be a failure to communicate even if he and his fiancee spoke the same language.
If you're going to a foreign country to choose a mate you will definitely pass up a lot of choices by selecting only women who speak your language. Of course it will take more time and patience to get to know someone deeply with whom you don't share a common language. If you don't have time and patience, you have no business in looking for a foreign wife!
As for women in Russia that speak or don't speak English:
Some women have a better natural grasp of languages. That doesn't necessarily make them more intelligent than their peers.
Some women have more or less interest in foreign languages. That doesn't mean they are more or less lazy.
If a Russian woman speaks English well, it doesn't mean she has an ignoble agenda. She could simply have enjoyed the language, had a facility for it, or studied with the knowledge that it could help in future academic or professional achievements
Most women who sign up for a marriage site or agency realize that it's a long shot that they will even meet an English speaking foreigner. For most, marrying a foreigner is a tempting option, not a definitive goal. Most women are listed on various different language sites, and even those listed on English language sites know that they are likely to meet non native English speakers. From their point of view, there is really no motivation to study English beyond what they've already learned until they've met a man they plan to marry.
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Jooky...Well Said...& better articulated than I have been able to manage!:)
RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
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Most young women will have learned English at school and those that did not will have been taught another language. They are exposed to English on a daily basis. ........./.........If she was taught English at school and now claims not to have any command of English then one of three things is true:
1) She lies
2) She was very lazy at school and did nothing to learn.
3) She is very dim and although she worked hard, she absorbed nothing.
There is not a fourth alternative, but none of the three above alternatives are particularly endearing are they?
Andrew, this is completely flawed thinking. Whilst in Russia in 2003, I had the occasion to meet one of Liliya's (http://#) colleagues, the English teacher for the HS where Liliya had worked for the past 7 yrs. This woman was absolutely petrified about meeting a native speaker. She practiced for days before the party where we'd be introduced. To say her grammar and pronunciation were atrocious would be a compliment. Even English products advertised on TV are pronounced incorrectly for the benefit of the masses. I'm sure most guys who've spent any time watching Russian TV have seen the ads for Slalom Ploose razors by Gillette. Just because Russians are taught English, does not mean it is taught correctly, or that they can communicate with native speakers. That doesn't make them dim, it makes them unexposed...
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During my visit in Moscow in 2004, my date wanted to say something she could not, so we went to the agency she used. She talked with interpreter and interpreter expalined "your mother...", and I did not understand her, so I asked "what about my mother?", she was confused and wondered why I asked this and finally I understood that every time interpreter said "your", she actually meant "her".
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I've got 2 stories of english teachers that I've discovered on my travels to Ukraine.
The first takes place around the fall of the SU. A couple moved from China to Lviv with their teenage daughter. The daughter had been learning english and the parents were surpised that after moving to Ukraine she started failing english classes. To make a long story short the parents tuned the radio to an english broadcast and asked the teacher to translate. The teacher couldn't and it was understood that this was common in the educational system. Keep in mind this is the system most of the women in the "ideal" age range of the more reasonable people here.
I think it has gotten better as things open up and people are able to get more english exposure, which brings me to my second example. One of the girls I was writing to was a language student who did a teaching rotation in a local high school. The teacher she worked with constantly lectured her about her "accent" which was due to her spending time in America.
As I mentioned in my previous post most of the women who did learn the language in the past did it as a part of an academic requirement, I've learned through experience that people can get really good grades but have no practical skills in that practice. As most of them especially in smaller towns don't think they will ever use the skill outside of school (like an english major and math) they won't continue to practice it and eventually it will fall into disuse.
As well it's a lot easier to listen to something and translate rather than attempt to speak it. When I first met my fiance she was in this state, often she would nod her head to what I said in English, although she could only say hello and good bye in english.
Finally I find it funny that you comment about Rvrwind's experience with a limited type of woman, when it is exactly that type of woman we are talking about. While I don't know you, from what I read here it is you who lack the experience with the "agency girl", so most of your theories are not something you can back up other than with some good logic on parts of it.
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[user=307]ronin308[/user] wrote:
Finally I find it funny that you comment about Rvrwind's experience with a limited type of woman, when it is exactly that type of woman we are talking about. While I don't know you, from what I read here it is you who lack the experience with the "agency girl", so most of your theories are not something you can back up other than with some good logic on parts of it.
I think you are speaking of me in this last paragraph, so let me explain. Although I did not spend a lengthy career dating large portions of various agencies catalogs, I did take the agency route. And I communicated with different types of women -- those with and without strong English skills, as well as those with and without strong agendas. Combined with the stories (both public and private) I have heard from both men and women on the subject, I can put a few ideas together.
I also know Rvr quite well, and am certain that most of the English speaking women he has met between dating and working in the FSU have, for the most part, been associated in some manner with dating agencies. You may think I state this as an insult to my friend Richard, but it is not. It's just a statement of fact, nothing more. I made an assumption (which he has not challenged) that this is where he developed his belief that strong English speakers in the FSU, actively meeting Western men, may be more likely to have an agenda based on more than a couple's mutual needs.
Is something wrong with this statement?
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Conner, it was actually in reply to Andrew's comments that if a woman is in an agency and not learning English she's one of the 3 things on his list and his statement about Rvr's limited exposure to FSU women.
I do agree with him that even if she doesn't speak english well now she should be able to learn it quickly, because she does have experience speaking a foreign language. I've found this true in my case as well.
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My opinion is based on my own experience in the USSR and in the USA. I'm really ashamed to say that I was trained to be a teacher of English language in Russia. Why do I ashamed? Because even now I make mistakes.
I don't know what is going on right now in Russia with teaching English, but I knew how low was the level of teaching in 80-90s.
As to the main question, my strong opinion is that bringing here a woman who doesn't speak English is not a good start for the relashionships. From the other side, to call all women who cannot speak English "lazy" is just stupid and disrespectful. As a teacher I know perfectly well, that every person has his own ability to study, some people are better in languages, some in math. If a woman doesn't have an ability to study languages it doesn't make her lazy or stupid at all. That was a point of my prevoius posts.
It is very easy to say that she can learn while waiting her K1 visa. A lot of those women have a job, a family, and they practically don't have enough time or finances to learn English, or other language. The best way to learn foreign language is to put person into total isolation from her native language for some time.
Being isolated from her native language, woman will have to use English. You cannot reach such results in Russia.
So, do guys need to overlook women who don't speak English?
I'd say it'll depend on the expectation of the guy, and his plans for their future together. If a guy knows that he is ready to go through the ESL process, he'd better be prepared to dedicate a lot of his time to help his lady to learn English. And be very patient. Be prepared to a lot of frustration and sometimes tears of his lady. Another important moment is a guy's expectation for the future: if he expects his wife to work (I don't mean grocery store or something like that) he needs to realize that it'll take years for his lady to get there.
If man doesn't want to deal with those problems, he shouldn't even waste his and woman's (non speaker) time.
It all depends on a personal desision of a man and his ability to dedicate himself to such chellenge.
And to suggest here newbies one or the other way is just not right.
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About studying foreigner languages in soviet schools.
The main foreigner language was English (then German-French - and others) It was so in my days at least
Education in secondary schools ( I mean school for 7-17 age pupils) includes 2 foreigner language lessons per week since 5th grade - not enough to speak at any language at all but if you were a good pupil you could get a basic idea about grammar for to improve your skills if you wanted to do that in future.
There were also so called special language secondary schools where foreigner languages were studied since 2d grade and there were 6 foreigner language lessons per week. I don't know about other cities but in Moscow each district had several schools of such kind. To sign your child in those schools was not such easy business because of huge "competition" of parents It was easy only if that school was next to your apartment.
Each University included courses of foreigner languages as well according to its specialization For example I had a course of translation technical texts as I studied in not linguistic but in technical University. - so I'm better in translation of such articles than in speaking in English
I don't know why you ask such question - what for soviets did need to study foreigner language as if soviets had no need in study others cultures at all and had no interest in that. - rather offended assumption I'd say
As for quality of that studying then I don't think there should be any "shame" for that system It's just impossible to learn foreigner language good enough if you have no real practice. But like a "base" soviet school system was not such bad to speak about any "shame".
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Rose, you have an amazing ability to really post some great answers that get right to the heart of the matter.
I agree. I think the factors that are the most importantt are the expectations of the two people and the amount of patience and understanding they both possess. I think if you have two people who really want to be together and they both understand it will be difficult at times and very frustating and that it will take a lot of work on the part of both, it won't be an obsticale.
Elen, I enjoyed your post too. It gave some interesting insights into the Russian education system and life in Russia. (my comment about the education system was not in a negative way. I think your systems there are quite good.
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Helen and Rose back up my original point well. This is not much different than here in the states (and I assume in the UK). I took 2 yrs of French in school(5 classes/wk). I did well in the classes. I can currently recall about 4 words of French and would never have been so silly as to assume I could converse with a native speaker on any meaningful level. We should not expect more from Russians.
My wife WANTED to learn English for reasons of opportunity in her town, not to snag an American husband. She worked herself through a 3 year German correspondence course which was quite effective in terms of reading/writing but did nothing to promote speaking/listening - these are two distinctly seperate operations. With the written word she was nearly fluent, she did not always arrange sentences in the same manner a native speaker would, but she was COMPLETELY understandable, (with very few spelling or grammatical errors,) to anyone who could read English.
I will absolutely agree that communication is the single most important element in a relationship and that the woman needs to be motivated to learn the language of the country where she plans to reside, but to say that if she doesn't know english well at the outset, that she is not serious about her future is BS.
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As I read some of these replies I'm reminded of the other side of the coin. How my own abilities with Russian sometimes gets off the wall.
The other day we were sitting on the patio and a little bird flew in, a sparrow, I think it was, anyway, my wife told me the name of the bird in Russian, "vorobolchic" is my best transliteration. As I tried out a new word for my Russian vocabulary it came out "vorobullsh!t", my wife almost fell out of her chair laughing so hard. Bear in mind, we've been married for 5 years and I hear and speak Russian everyday so my pronouncation is not usually that bad, but this time I really butchered the word up badly.
Even a long term speaker sometimes doesn't hear very well. Some regional accents are hard for the learner to comprehend, once on a trip to Florida we stopped for gas in some tiny place in Alabama or Georgia, the service station attendant was absolutely speaking something from Mars, I could barely understand him myself, as we left she asked me, "What language was he speaking?". "Was that English???" All I could do was shake my head. Maybe the guy had a speech impediment...
The easiest English speakers to understand for a new learner is the almost accent-free English we hear on the nightly news. If you can mimic the Dan Rather or Ted Koppel manner of speech you will be a lot easier to understand if you are dealing with someone who is just beginning to interact with native English speakers. My wife says New Yorkers and folks from New Jersery are hard to follow because they speak so fast, Californians use too much slang, and she goes to sleep listening to Southerners.
YMMV
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I don't think that I, at least, have said that fluency of English is the only sign of motivation. I also know that the level of English that can be expected of a woman who learned for a few years at school would not be high. But there is a whole heap of difference between 'some' and 'none'. If a woman managed to get through school and several years of English tuition and retain nothing, then what I wrote is correct. Also, if a woman, on joining an anglophone agency, is doing nothing to improve her skills, then she is as I already wrote.
Imagine, if you will, a person who has managed to get through the US educational system and yet could not do mental arithmetic, or could not calculate how much of a sale price sales tax was. What would you think of such a person? Lazy or stupid? So why is it that you accpet lower standards in learning of languages? is it because you guys are weak in this area also and do not wish to appear hypocritical?
It is possible to put all kinds of spin on the issue, but nobody has yet stood up and answered my question, posed twice now. I take it that the resounding silence is an affirmation of my point.
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Imagine, if you will, a person who has managed to get through the US educational system and yet could not do mental arithmetic, or could not calculate how much of a sale price sales tax was. What would you think of such a person? Lazy or stupid? So why is it that you accpet lower standards in learning of languages? is it because you guys are weak in this area also and do not wish to appear hypocritical?
Is that your question that you have asked twice and no one has answered? No, I would not think they were lazy or stupid. I would think they were not good in math.
Everyone has their things they are good at and things they are bad at. My former wife was an A/B student in school but take her to the Mall she had been in 1000 times and she could not find her way from Pennys to Sears. Was she lazy? well not too. Was she stupid? Well she married me, some might say that. :P She just didn't have a good sense of directions.
When I was in school I did great at math and science, fair at English and terrible at French. If all you looked at was how I did in French class Andrewfin would definately look at me as lazy and stupid.
Personally I prefer to look for the good in people and not think in terms of people being lazy or stupid.
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Imagine, if you will, a person who has managed to get through the US educational system and yet could not do mental arithmetic, or could not calculate how much of a sale price sales tax was. What would you think of such a person? Lazy or stupid? So why is it that you accpet lower standards in learning of languages? is it because you guys are weak in this area also and do not wish to appear hypocritical?
Your comparison is totally flawed as everyone will regularily use maths after leaving the education system but may never have to use the second language they have been taught and hence their ability/confidence will dimish over time.
Your question has been answered, we accept it because it is not a deciding factor in determining if we are going to go to the trouble of getting to know someones personality/character, the most important factor in deciding on the future prospects of success. This is because we understand that language is only a minor problem that will be overcome with time and effort, like most things in life.
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if we are going to go to the trouble of getting to know someones personality/character, the most important factor in deciding on the future prospects of success.
When I recommended better English skills, my point is just this; that you cannot get to know someone's personality/character without better communications capabilities. There seems to be a contradiction here that many do not grasp. On the one hand, you are willing to forgo being able to freely communicate, on the other hand you want to get to know someone's personality and character. How do you do that? Look at how so many men tell of how they got burned by playing at this. Bruno and Maxx are two that immediately jump to mind.
I maintain that you can't get too far with body language, grunts, nods, pointing, and grinning at each other like love struck fools. Even a bi-directional dictionary will only allow very rudimentary communication. There absolutely has to be vocabulary between you. Without it you are flirting with a pig-in-a-poke, it may be a very pretty pig, but you still know nothing of what you are buying at that point.
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jb, you are right, it is easier to discover a person if you can speak the same language with her. Communication is very imporrant thing in building relations.
But, the challenge of learning English in the US, for example, is also a great way to discover the character of the partner. Two people can observe each other, their interaction, their ability to be patient, and other qualities, what are very important.
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Rose,
I would agree with everything you've said,,, except:
But, the challenge of learning English in the US, for example, is also a great way to discover the character of the partner.
At the point where the woman is here learning English in the US, she is already committed to get married by virture of the K-1 visa rules. Like the man said, this is a fiancee visa, not a girlfriend visa. This is known as putting the cart in front of the horse. That is a misuse of the K-1 visa process, and strictly against the rules.
But who the hell pays attention to the rules anyway.....
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if we are going to go to the trouble of getting to know someones personality/character, the most important factor in deciding on the future prospects of success.
When I recommended better English skills, my point is just this; that you cannot get to know someone's personality/character without better communications capabilities. There seems to be a contradiction here that many do not grasp. On the one hand, you are willing to forgo being able to freely communicate, on the other hand you want to get to know someone's personality and character. How do you do that? Look at how so many men tell of how they got burned by playing at this. Bruno and Maxx are two that immediately jump to mind.[/quote]
:shock: I think that i am not the right example... ;)
My ex-wife and myself have a common language... not English but French... language that she have learn to school... After one year in Belgium, she was able to speak and understand Ducth, the language of the regio i life... the main problem in Dutch was for follow a discussion... since in her mind, she was thinking russian, the discussion was slow...
The fact that she was not so bad in French and Dutch have allow her to build better lie... in some way, you need master language for build good credible lie...
One of the main problem about our communication was not the language but the lenght of communication before the marriage... letter via post mail ( two week go and same for return )... behavour during the 3 meeting was like during holliday... we have not really use time for build a relation before the marriage... sexually actif before the marriage but with brain dead :huh:...
Language is never a problem for me, i adapt very fast... but these marriage was the first after my "pig" life in Navy... these mistake have bring me a lot of maturity and make me very difficult in my actual choice...
With the actual girlfriend, language is not a problem too... she speak Ukrainian, Russian, German and English very good... she speak a middle Dutch... she wish learn French... and it is more of one year that i know her... she have never plan to quit the Ukraine or marry a foreign men... How we have know each other : simple, via forum :shock: She is member here and on antidate... not very active but she have "monitor" me via my post :cool:
In any case, a women will learn very fast the base of language when she is in the host country... i see it every day with my work... where i use people who ask asylum for help in garden... after a few month, they know some base... after one year, they can speak slowly...
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Bruno,
You make excuses for your's and her actions now, but in earlier posts you indicated you did not know this woman's intentions very well before you married her. How is this possible if you were able to communicate so well? Unless she was the consumate actress and you were the consumate fool, we can only surmise you didn't get to know her very well before you married her.
Which is it?
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Bruno,
You make excuses for your's and her actions now, but in earlier posts you indicated you did not know this woman's intentions very well before you married her. How is this possible if you were able to communicate so well? Unless she was the consumate actress and you were the consumate fool, we can only surmise you didn't get to know her very well before you married her.
Which is it?
I was a fool and she was a good actress... same her own parents was surprised :shock: She have loose almost all her russian friend in Belgium, they was shocked...
The marriage periode itself was not so bad... She was not the perfect women but who is perfect... the end was a surprise... i have never know about GCG before her... three day before the end, it was a usual family christmas... the last night, we have make love like all couple... the day after, the door was closed... she have receive her green belgium card ( really green in Belgium )...
I have know more after because she have explain herself her plan...
But now, she regret our periode together... several time, she have contact me for try again together... last time was in January... unfortunaly for her, i cannot forgive the divorce... it was too much...
EDIT : In some way, several here are fool like i was before... they are ready to marry a woman they don't really know, they guided by lust but not the real love... like i have say before, build a relation with a local women ask several month... it is not different with a russian woman... one week wonder ( or one month ) are potential victim for GCG... or other beast... take your time for make the right choice... i have loose around 6 year of my life and i don't wish the same for other people. Moey for meeting is nothing, you can make more money... but time cannot be taken back... it is better use several month for your quest that loose 5 or 10 year of your life due to the wrong choice...
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Well I gotta say I am totally insulted & a bit pissed at the attitude I'm reading here!!!
My post was not meant to be taken that seriously. I think the majority of men going over, have never heard of an RW discussion website, or would even be interested in participating. I think most go over, find the first RW who will let him grab her @ss, fills out the visa form in the hotel room and goes back home to wait.
It is the idea that most really get to know each other that I found funny. I think the language is really irrelevant to the majority of the people searching.
Yet, to answer the question..... I would have to say it depends. There are scammers who speak no english, relying on computer translations, and there are scammers who speak excellent english. No rule will keep you 100% safe.
Bottom line my friends is that the only thing that can help you in this process is to ensure that your head is somewhere other than your @ss. There is no substitute for good judgement.
If your plan is to last 731 days, then nevermind :D
JP
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Bruno,
Thank you for your honesty.
I think your story should be taken to heart by all newbies entering into this pursuit.
All that glitters is not gold, all that shines is not silver. A man should know his woman before he marries, otherwise he buys a pig-in-a-poke and risks all the troubles you have suffered.
I could not have said it better than you did.
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Andrew, I think to make a generalization like you have with your questions leaves out at least 2 very important factors.
1. The caliber of the person trying to help her learn the language, it requires a much larger effort to try and learn on your own compared to having someone guide you.
2. The innate ability possed by the person to learn a language. Some people regardless of how bright they are simply cannot make the leap to learn a new language as quickly as those who seem to "pick it up".
I think in Photo's case he's dealing with a bit of both and maybe more. The only way for a guy to know this is to closely monitor her learning progress. In the case of my fiance we could have rather halting conversations punctuated with her looking things up in the dictionary after a month. At 2 months very few words threw her and those that did she would ask for an explanation rather than look it up. I felt fairly confident of the progress being made.
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Gosh, Maybe I have seen the light now. I guess I am going to have to write N and tell her to hit the road because she is so stupid and lazy. Silly me... I should have realized that after working her first job as a teacher for 35 hours each week, and her second job in an office for 40 hours each week, and raising her 2 sons on her own... she should have taken the time to learn some english.
All she would have needed to do was maybe get one more job... since she gets almost a hundred dollars a month from each of the jobs.. so she could maybe buy some course books or take some courses in english... heck... after a year with that third job she might even be able to buy her own computer and then pay the $1 an hour for internet access and do an online course. Well, really if you shop around in her town you can find internet access for as low as $0.85 per hour if you prepay for 33 hours of access each month.
I am sure glad you helped me see how lazy and stupid she is.... She should have an easy time remembering what english she had in high school 25 years ago and been plenty proficient by now. Especially since she was listed with an agency that caters to english speaking men.
I guess I will just have to tell her that after she gets that 3rd job, buys that computer and studies for a year or two that she will have proven that she isn't lazy and stupid. Then maybe I would talk to her again.
You sure made a compelling argument that these women who can not speak or read english are stupid and lazy... I would have never realized just how lazy she was.
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[size="4"]r0gera, Bravo!!! :clapping:[/size]
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r0gera, Bravo!!! :clapping:
She will probably be pretty relieved that she is being dumped now... she won't have to walk 45 minutes each direction 3 times a week or so to get to the agency any more.... well at least for a few years till she learns english anyway.
I guess that was another sign I missed..... she has only been walking to the agency and back home 3 times a week or so... If she wasn't so lazy she would have been walking there every day... and if she wasn't so stupid she would have been shoveling snow for people along the way so she could make some extra money to pay for those english classes....
Things are so much clearer for me now that I know the reason she can not converse in english without a translator.
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[size="4"]r0gera, Bravo!!! :clapping:[/size]
I wholeheartedly second that!
Ken
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Ronin ~ are you going to answer the question?
Ain't the lack of thought a wonderful thing?
I am happy that you are all happy with your hard working women who can not talk with you. Perhaps on reflection it si good that sometimes you do not have to try to understand your wives/penfriends/whatever, nor they you. It makes for an easy life eh?
Let us chalk this up the 'no need to talk' meme along with the 'all Russian women are beautiful' and the all Russian women are "traditional'" delusions.
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Ronin ~ are you going to answer the question?
Ain't the lack of thought a wonderful thing?
I am happy that you are all happy with your hard working women who can not talk with you. Perhaps on reflection it si good that sometimes you do not have to try to understand your wives/penfriends/whatever, nor they you. It makes for an easy life eh?
Let us chalk this up the 'no need to talk' meme along with the 'all Russian women are beautiful' and the all Russian women are "traditional'" delusions.
This will be chalked up to the "all non-English speaking FSU women are lazy and/or dumb" delusion.
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Andrew, we've tried to answer your question by showing you several mitigating factors which have nothing to do with intelligence or laziness. You have yet to prove us these factors don't matter, so how and why should we answer your question when it doesn't appear entirely valid?
A comparison to math is very weak indeed. After all math is required for survival, I don't see many women outside of certain skill sets who need to use english for anything other than meeting men. I can say I lost my conversational Spanish after leaving high school because I simply had no use or interest for it.
As several people here with more experience than you on both sides of the agency fence have tried to show you, there is little reason for a girl to go to the trouble of learning the language as most men are willing to accept a non-english speaker at the beginning, provided she can pick up the language quickly later. Does this make her lazy? Maybe, but then again you can have mitigating circumstances.
My personal answer to this question is that I understand the various reasons why my fiance had not continued to keep her english skills fresh and am satisified those reasons had little to do with either intelligence or laziness. I guess in your mind these mitigating circumstances are "spin". But things are not as black and white as you seem to put them.
As to my communications with my future wife, we don't have problems discussing politics, religion or other complicated subjects as well as correcting her own grammer mistakes after 6 months of english lessons I guess that while she meets your defination of being lazy or stupid maybe she really isn't?
You can ignore or insult the majority of the posters here like you have or understand that maybe the world is a little different than you imagined.
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Rose said....
"My opinion is based on my own experience in the USSR and in the USA. I'm really ashamed to say that I was trained to be a teacher of English language in Russia. Why do I ashamed? Because even now I make mistakes. "
Rose ...this is one of the funniest things I have ever read anywhere and it strikes at the heart of this discussion...it also makes me smile inside because these cute mistakes of grammer are most often endearing and fun.....
The correct question is .....Why am I ashamed?.....becasue even now I make mistakes...:-) Priceless my dear...
A common language is vital....but spoken language is only a part of communication...there is body language...the wink, the smile, the frown, the tear, the shiver, the touch....all comunication...
Heck I was married to two AW and I always struggled to understand what the hell exactly they were really saying!!!!! I failed to understand both times...:-)
BTW....Russians were mainly required to study English (then ..not now) because it was important for them to understand the enemy.
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Well, for me such mistakes aren't cute, they are embarrassing...
By the way, I've noticed that a lot people here write the word "grammer" instead of "grammar". I couldn't find the first version in the dictionary or online. But it cannot be a mistake, because a lot of people use it, so it became a part of speach, as I understand. Can anyone here to explain me this phenomenon?
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Quite a few Americans tend to spell as they hear, rather than learning to spell. I think also that in 'closed communities' such as discussion boards, errors made by one are picked up by others even less skilled. Probably the same kind of thing happens on Russian boards, albeit that Russian is to a greater degree spelled as it sounds.
I hope that those who find these errors cute actually do something to correct them. (although I confess that I found my friend saying 'kidney garden' instead of 'kindergarten' quite funny)
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Ronin ~ There is no other standard for your satisfaction than your satisfaction. As is so often the case, it is not possible to show somebody a different point of view, especially when they have made a personal and emotional investment in it.
If you were in the situation in which I find myself then you too would understand somewhat better the realities and even more, what the women that you seek ACTUALLY think and say.
At the end of the day, excuses or allowances do not matter, it is performance that does. If you think that you can get to know somebody without a decent degree of shared verbal communication, then fine. I have not wavered in my understanding that some people's requirements in the area of communication are very low and that there are plenty of people willing to take advantage of the naivete of others.
If you think that preparation for a course of life is unecessary, and of no effect upon a successful outcome, then fine.
If you think that it is normal for a person to forget all they learned at school, even with daily reinforcements, then fine.
If you think a motivated person can not find time to make a success of learning or relearning then fine.
The reality is that a motiveted person CAN find time to learn and relearn, it is NOT normal to forget entirely what one learns at school and preparation for success DOES influence the opportunity for a successful outcome.
And still awaiting an answer to the question posed previously - the absence of an answer getting daily more strongly indicative of the reality of what people are doing...
Picture of horse beng led to water, but refusing to drink...
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Hi everybody. I'm a newbie to this site and this my first post. I just thought that I would throw in my own 'twopenny'orth" to this valuable discussion.
I am presently developing a relationship with a Kyiv English teacher, whom I chose, through an agency, particularly because she would be fluent in English. I was initially very surprised by odd character of her English despite her speaking it nearly daily for the best part of 30 years. Having said that, her English is better than many of the men at my workplace, a number of whom are functionally illiterate. (a problem of Britain NOT shared with most of Europe incl. the FSU). Of course, I hadn't realised that she had rarely met any native speakers, and only in recent (post-Soviet) years. I found her to be surprisingly ignorant about British (or North American) society, yet her cat was named from a book by Kipling! (Bagir, since you asked.)
She herself no longer teaches in school, but adult short courses. A friend of hers, who teaches in school, invited me to speak to her class of 10, about Britain. When the day came, I (a clerk, not a teacher) was confronted by all the English classes (70+), and the school director! Questions and answers. The 30 minutes alotted became 2+ hours. It was great. Of course, it was easy once we got talking about football, which, of course, is the true world language along with music! And I was informed that I was the first Englishman to ever visit the school, and the first that anyone had met. Then I understood everything.
Things are very good between us, and are likely to develop to the desired conclusion. I love the idiosyncrasies of her English, but wonder whether she will take kindly to a suggestion to study, say, a heavy Business English course, to develop her English to a standard suitable for the office and appropriate employment, because of her age. Yet, I don't think she will want to be a counter clerk at Asda (the British arm of Walmart), at this stage of her life.
Just my twopenny'orth!
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55north ~ you make a good point about the character of the English usage and you are spot on as to why. When I was in Moldova I was with university students who had never had a class with a native English speaker. Often though, I think it true to say that their technical grasp of English (grammar, construction and vocabulary) would put many here to shame. My guess is that as cable TV becomes rapidly more and more accessible then the command of the spoken form will be getting better. (cable tv is very cheap in many places and given that tv is the cheapest form of entertainment going,seems to be almost universal in uptake as soon as it is available)
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Andrew, I think you are also being unwilling to see another viewpoint and or inflexible. I do agree that of course it's up to a individual as to their satisfaction.
As to getting along without shared communication, have you read my posts? I have stated that at least in my case I am now able to communicate very close to what I would with a woman from my own country. The only roadblock has been expanding her's to my level which will take a long time as I read extensively that and of course what I consider the normal grammer correction that I've had to do with almost any non-English speaker who is still learning the language.
Her ability to learn the language was very important to me, I did not consider it important at the begining of the relationship. I do feel that had she not been able to learn the language as quick as she did, I would have had to reevaluate the relationship.
I agree that preparation for a course of life is neccessary for a successful outcome, we disagree on when that preparation should begin, you say immediately when she enters and agency, and I agree with what the agency owners have said as well as my own conversations with women both in and outside of agencies. My experience is limited to Ukraine only.
As to forgetting all they learned at school? When it isn't used on a regular basis of course they will forget some, in many cases to the point they can understand but not be able to speak it. As to daily reinforcements, that might be true in Estonia, but outside of Kiev it was hard for me as a native english speaker to do so, let alone someone who would have a hard time to understand in the first place. Hell the airport hotel in Borispil has only 1 out of 4 of it's front desk people who speak english and they have many english speaking guests pass through their doors.
I do think a motivated person can and will find the time, materials and ability to relearn what they have been taught. I simply feel that this will not happen until her motivation is stronger than just being in an agency for western men, like after she meets one or two. I know of stories of motivated women, Jack shared one with me of a girl who learned her english through her dates with foreign men.
Just as you continue to ponder why no one will answer your question, I will continue to reply that the question lacks enough parameters for someone to be able to answer it. It's interesting that someone who can see the many shades of grey in world politics can be so black and white in this particular area. Human nature is not black and white.
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[user=307]ronin308[/user] wrote:
I am now able to communicate very close to what I would with a woman from my own country. The only roadblock has been expanding her's to my level which will take a long time as I read extensively that and of course what I consider the normal grammer* correction that I've had to do with almost any non-English speaker who is still learning the language.
Oh, just give me a break!!! It will take many years for her to be able communicate with you to what you "would with a woman from your own country". Additionally, the problem is not just to communicate with you. Does she work? If yes, what kind of a job does she have? Does she have problems with communication there?
Don't know, maybe I'm too dumm or lazy, or maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I still don't consider myself being able to communicate on the native English speaker level. I remember when I studied English at the University in Russia one of my instructors told: "The more I learn English, the more I realize that I don't know it".
*although language is a dynamic structure, there is still no such word in it. At least, I checked several dictionaries and couldn't find it. There is word "grammar".
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Rose,
I believe what you are witnessing is called "Wish Fulfillment". These men wish it were so, therefore in their minds, it is.
Common sense tells us that non-verbal communication is at the very lowest form of human interaction. Anyone who actually believes body language, a smile, a nod, and a tear are sufficiently satisfactory grounds for matrimony is living in a fantasy world. I've traveled all over the world and a few things I've learned is that smiling and giggles are a sure sign of nervousness when people do not understand each other. Almost everyone will nod their head when asked a question when they haven't got a clue, it's an involuntary reaction, and aside from physical pain, tears very often indicate frustration.
All this talk about non-verbal communication is bunk. It does not exist.
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Rose and jb, I agree.
Last night, on the phone, I made an everyday innocent comment, with a smile on my face, and it was totally misunderstood, and this by an English teacher. Still in the doghouse this morning.
The good thing, if she had only a smattering of English, would be that she failed to understand me at all, or thought she had heard me incorrectly. I'm sure that if my relationship was based on minimal language between us, then matters would not have progressed to where they are now.
Having said that, something else occurs to me. Does the likelihood of success after the RW has made the move depend to some extent upon how long you effectively cohabited (without interference) in her country. That has been invaluable for us despite no major language problem. The minutae of 'keeping house', bathroom sharing, getting the shopping in, and hanging out with her friends and relatives (4 weeks out of the 5 months we have been in contact), appears to have established, in her friends' and family's mindseye, that we are 'a couple', which is how we feel.
Yes, this is very important, and probably not realisable for many as her accommodation (and other considerations) will not allow it. If a couple had already developed a domestic relationship in the FSU, it might go a long way to ameliorate the language problem.
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Rose, With the amount of new medical and scientific words in the English language, there are over 1,000,000 damn words easily. Many of those words have multiple definitions! Damn again. That is why it's said if you know 60,000 words then you are a genious! Not many people fall into that category. Don't let it bother you about people not using proper grammEr. Soon there will be no more issues. Read this news article that came out recently.
Brussels Belgium: The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20 persent shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru!
I Knev it! Efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas becas zey vant to rul ze vorld!!! But ROSE vil be hapy zat evrivun vil be uzing propr GRAMER! Zink abut it, is zat vat u vant?
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Billy,
That was TFF!!!!
KenC
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AMAZIN, BILIB, IT VAZ FANI!!!
But seriously tallking I want an opposite: I want people stopped writing "grammer" as they hear and start writing "grammar" as it apperas in the language. Your example is funny, but demonstrates what might happen to the language if charge over it will be in the hands of those who writes "grammer".
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Rose, I don't think people will ever stop mispelling words no matter how simple a language could be. Looking back at the way I spelled grammar (gramer) using the Euro-English method, I spelled it wrong. It should be spelled "Gramr"
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Þā Geānlǣtan Rīcu American is trēowiendlicu cynewīse þe ligþ mǣst in Norðum American. Hīe gebyrdaþ norþ Canadan and sūþ Mexico. Hīe habbaæ 50 rīca and āne trēowiendlice scīre, and habbaþ sume foldan mid syndrigum gradum sibbe. Man spricþ ymbe hīe, in syndrigum fiellum, swā þā Geānlǣhtan Rīcan, AmericaTemplate:Ref, þā U.S., þa U.S.A., þā U.S. of A., þā Rīcu, oþþe (leōþlīce) Columbia.
http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa
Yes, these text is in old english... if you don't wish evolution of your language, you need to speak the original one... good luck :P
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Rose, it is a speling problem, not a grammer problem... ;)
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Bruno, I can give you a lecture about history of the English language, thank you for yours. My bachelor's project was related to this topic. Anyway, thank you.
But, we are loosing the point here: How important are woman's English abilities.
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But, we are loosing the point here: How important are woman's English abilities.
You are right...
For myself, i think that the woman's English abilities are irrelevant in the early stage... since a woman don't already know from where can be his future husband... but her abilities to learn a other language in a near future is important... if she have already choose a country, she can maybe begin learn by herself... and continue learn after the first date... and continue once she is in the host country...
Of course, it is my point of view... i am more open about this since the probability to find a FSU women who already speak Dutch language is very very low... a very basic common language ( a few words ) are needed in the early stage of relation... and the common language need to grow in the same time that the relation, since more complex thema are aborded...
Myself, i have learn very basic english and Dutch in school... i was able to ask the time and reply yes or no... I have begin learn Dutch when i have stop work in Navy several year ago... 3 month work in cafe was enough... for the english, i have learn a little each day of my life... i don't master perfectly these two language but i think that people understand me...
What a people already know is not important... what she is ready to learn is important...
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How important are woman's English abilities.
It's my view that you absolutely must have a way to communicate and
that you have to have 1 million conversations so that you know that you
have common values and similar opinions on love, marriage, raising a
family, religion and other things.
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It's my view that you absolutely must have a way to communicate and
that you have to have 1 million conversations so that you know that you
have common values and similar opinions on love, marriage, raising a
family, religion and other things.
After meeting with a ton of gals on several WMVM visits, I would advise to NEVER even meet with a woman who cannot converse without help of a translator.
Doesn't have to be good English, but the more she knows the smoother your relationship will progress.