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Author Topic: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom  (Read 20330 times)

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Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2018, 11:47:24 AM »
According to experts who study comparative communism.  There are whole scholarly journals devoted to this study.  So your link isn't really of interest to me.

LOL. The go wrestle that with the entire population of Slovakia (since Alexander Dubcek IS (was) a Slovak) and let them know their take on their own history is wrong, and YOU'RE right.


I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different.

See post #s 15, 19, 20 and 23.

I never posted it did.

Oh good! Then you agree with me that comparing the two events is blasphemous...

Like I said..carry on.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:53:03 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online krimster2

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2018, 12:30:39 PM »
"I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different."


BO, the person you’re arguing with is copy/pasting their information from wikipedia
so he has NO THOUGHTS himself on how it is different, he’s just trying to bait you, don’t let him...

BO, up there in that Canada, did your University have a monthly copy of "Problems of Communism"
it was published by the US State Dept, sick hospital green cover?

you familiar by any chance, it's been published FOR decades back to the 50s/60s


Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2018, 01:40:50 PM »
"I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different."


BO, the person you’re arguing with is copy/pasting their information from wikipedia
so he has NO THOUGHTS himself on how it is different, he’s just trying to bait you, don’t let him...

So impressive! You are so right!
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2018, 03:37:35 PM »
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.


Carry on...

I'm wondering what planet you're on GQblues ...

 I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..

You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting

 

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2018, 04:02:08 PM »
I'm wondering what planet you're on GQblues ...

 I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..

You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting


You got that in reverse. Since Prague Spring happened prior to maidan, it is, IMHO, an insult to Czechs/Slovaks to compare 'it' to 2014 maidan. I already explained myself as to why it isn't even remotely comparable.

Now, if you believe IT IS comparable, please explain, or *as the powers that be on this board would like to say*, I quote: *don't litter the board with your basura as it isn't just for you* end quote.

So please explain your point how it is one and the same.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 04:09:58 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2018, 04:05:43 PM »
btw, sorry. To answer your Q, my planet is called 'earth'. Third rock from the sun. You?
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2018, 12:46:31 AM »
Quote from: GQBlues

You got that in reverse.

Nope and you're just deflecting from my point - re insulting ...





Quote from: GQBlues
So please explain your point how it is one and the same.

I already did - and you know it ..


But here's the most obvious point ..  Just over seventy Czechs and Slovaks lost their lives when the Prague Spring was put down ...  Remind us how many Ukrainians have died in 2014 ?

 




Offline BdHvA

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2018, 01:07:29 AM »

 I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..

You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting

Moby, You are delusional!

During the Czech spring and that in Hungary there was no attempt to 'break free' of any Oligarchy. It was a failed attempt to restore freedom and personal rights. For what it is worth both Poland and Ukraine also had uprisings against Communism that were squashed.

Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.

Feel free to list in the post Communist era any patriots to the people of Ukraine.
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Offline JayH

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2018, 01:14:43 AM »


Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.


I nearly wrote earlier that I now believe  Ukraine needs a charismatic leader  with a  wide ranging blueprint  across the entire landscape that can harness the mood of Maidan and move the entire country forward .

What is certain -that leader is not amongst  the yesterday's  people.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online krimster2

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2018, 01:34:42 AM »
yes!

I thought it was "Nadia" when she got out of her Russian prison
but no....
you can wait for the messiah a long time, and sometimes miss it when they show up

a few years from now, whatever Putin leaves behind, and whatever is not taken by Hungary and others may have a chance
Ukraine is now just an old sprawling Potempkin Village
propped up by a few pieces of rotting lumber
the wind blowing through empty ancient streets
too tired for dreaming
waiting...




« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 01:57:51 AM by krimster2 »

Offline msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2018, 02:39:06 AM »
[Moby, You are delusional!

THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...

During the Czech spring and that in Hungary there was no attempt to 'break free' of any Oligarchy. It was a failed attempt to restore freedom and personal rights. For what it is worth both Poland and Ukraine also had uprisings against Communism that were squashed.

Once again, your historical knowledge suffers a deficit ... 

Ukrainians sought a system / nation that:

1/ Didn't manipulate election results
2/ Allowed Journos to report freely without risk to their lives
3/ Electoral candidates to run campaigns without being poisoned
4/ Freedom to form alliances with nations other than - but not excluding - Russia

Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.

Utter twaddle : and you REALLY should know better


Feel free to list in the post Communist era any patriots to the people of Ukraine.[/font][/size]

The list depends on whether you are  pro a more western outlook or retaining closer ties with Moscow

You'll not have heard of most of them - given there are SO many

It starts with journalists who have been threatened, beaten up or even killed for investigating stories

Georgiy Gongadze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze 

I dated a UA journo who worked for a new organisation that had to walk the tight rope of serving her Russian master and reporting fact ...   She knew Gongadze and after he was murdered resolved to learn Ukrainian

Small town Politicians - member of the Party of Regions - same party that disavowed Yanukovych

Volodymyr Rybak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak






Offline BdHvA

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2018, 06:31:55 AM »
THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...
Why should I, you have all your own BS.
 
Ukrainians sought a system / nation that:

1/ Didn't manipulate election results
2/ Allowed Journos to report freely without risk to their lives
3/ Electoral candidates to run campaigns without being poisoned
4/ Freedom to form alliances with nations other than - but not excluding - Russia

So did the rest of Eastern Europe that was under control of Russia, and they succeeded where as Ukraine is stuck in a swamp.

Look at the leaders today and the reality of Ukraine.



Georgiy Gongadze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze 

Small town Politicians - member of the Party of Regions - same party that disavowed Yanukovych

Volodymyr Rybak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak

What a joke! A Georgian and a local official, yes they were murdered. However they were not in any way shape or form leaders of Ukraine. For a while I had hoped Porchenko would move the country forward but he does not seem to be able or have the will to overcome the entrenched bureaucrats and the ogliarchs.

Many have 'disavowed Yanukovych' but it has NOT brought improvement to the country. Ukraine continues because the people are strong.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 06:34:24 AM by BdHvA »
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Offline msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2018, 08:15:43 AM »
Quote from: moby

THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...



Why should I, you have all your own BS.

Er, you should - simply because if you can't - WHO is the Bullshitter ?...


So did the rest of Eastern Europe that was under control of Russia, and they succeeded where as Ukraine is stuck in a swamp.

I 'see' ...  Georgia has lost control of territory to 'Abkhazia' and S.Ossetia (Russian passports) , Moldova to 'Transnistria' ( Russian passports) and it's 'just Ukraine' in a swamp ....   ?

Thanks - once again you prove your geo-political knowledge ..   I 'forgot' - you've not been to ANY of these places and wouldn't HAVE a clue....


Look at the leaders today and the reality of Ukraine.

Indeed Poroshenko has been a BIG disappointment - yet another Oligarch who divvied up UA into friendly fiefdoms  ..but what has THAT got to do with you dissing lots of ordinary Ukrainians who've sacrificed their lives for the freedom they sought - in FAR greater numbers than former Czechoslovia ?


What a joke!

Wow, you are revealing yourself as a paragon of virtue..


A Georgian and a local official, yes they were murdered. However they were not in any way shape or form leaders of Ukraine.

Au contraire - what you fail to grasp is that is people like that - who stood up against bully boy tactics and refused to 'lie down' that are the heroes


Many have 'disavowed Yanukovych' but it has NOT brought improvement to the country. Ukraine continues because the people are strong

and yet they were the party of Yanu and where are they now ?   

Ukraine is a 'failed state' according to those who support the regime trying to ensure that and it is a tragedy that many Ukrainians dislike all Russians and we soon won't even be able to catch a train from Moscow to Kyiv - such is the tension

Now, have you any more DAFT assertions?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:21:29 AM by msmob »

Offline BdHvA

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2018, 08:39:28 AM »
Moby, It is amazing to read how you attempt to change the topic and try to deflect from the core points that I and others made. Oddly enough we are not that far apart in agreement but it is your perverse sense that you want to argue for arguments sakes.

Having a discussion with you is like arguing with a simpleton who happens to be an eel in fact.

No offense to eels, smoked they are quite tasty. You on the other hand leave a bad taste before even meeting.


« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:43:45 AM by BdHvA »
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Offline msmob

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Re: BdHvA does EXACTLY what he accuses me of ;)
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2018, 09:06:40 AM »
Moby, It is amazing to read how you attempt to change the topic and try to deflect

That you see no irony in your assertion does you 'credit' ...   

YOU accused me of fibbing - cannot find an example to prove your point and are further demonstratinging you ain't that hot on recent UA history to boot..



change the topic and try to deflect from the core points that I and others made.

'sorry' - but when someone accuses me of lying with near impunity elsewhere and is foolish to do it HERE, too - I'll drag their feet over burning coals ! ;)

The core point in this case is you 'siding' with GQBlues when far more folks lost their lives in Ukraine.

Oddly enough we are not that far apart in agreement but it is your perverse sense that you want to argue for arguments sakes.

You could have fooled me re our stances being close..

Having a discussion with you is like arguing with a simpleton who happens to be an eel in fact.

No offense to eels, smoked they are quite tasty. You on the other hand leave a bad taste before even meeting. [/font][/size]

..and there we can close the matter... 

It is in indeed hard to discuss reason with a person who repeats a slur with no basis in fact and then declines to admit folly



« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:22:45 AM by msmob »

Online krimster2

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2018, 09:09:38 AM »
yeah BdHvA did this to me as well?

why BdHvA????

you gotta lotta 'splainin to do!!!!


Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2018, 09:42:55 AM »
LMAO! Msmob's reasons why 2014 maidan is just like Prague Spring:

No. 1:
an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

No. 2:
Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting

No. 3:
But here's the most obvious point ..  Just over seventy Czechs and Slovaks lost their lives when the Prague Spring was put down ...  Remind us how many Ukrainians have died in 2014 ?

 :ROFL: 

It amazes me how you have the audacity to repeatedly call Trenchcoat stupid!  :-X

Moby, You are delusional!...


Yeppers. Which is largely why I dubbed him my virtual Chihuahua. All bark, no bite. Just toss him a biscuit then ignore him. He'll get insecure and start looking for anything to hump.


« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:51:26 AM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2018, 09:50:37 AM »
LMAO! Msmob's reasons why 2014 maidan is just like Prague Spring:


Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2018, 09:52:57 AM »

Reason No. 4:

Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..


Just keeps reinforcing my point.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline BdHvA

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2018, 10:12:46 AM »
Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..

The above is a typical lie of Moby, from some one who does not understand history. Perhaps calling it a lie is unfair, call it simple ignorance.

The events in Prague were a top down revolution, that was supported by the general population.

Those in Ukraine (Maidan and the Orange Revolution) were protests from the bottom up by the people against the ruling nomenclature and actions they took.

To compare as equal events the one to the other is almost biazare, but than again some are delusional.
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Offline msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2018, 10:32:19 AM »
The above is a typical lie of Moby, from some one who does not understand history.

More delicious irony

Perhaps calling it a lie is unfair, call it simple ignorance.

Ignorance is repeatedly calling someone a liar with no basis in fact and now you are trying to be 'nice' ...  [ puke ]

The events in Prague were a top down revolution, that was supported by the general population.

Is that your 'excuse' to big it up - even though far more people have lost their lives in Ukraine ?

Those in Ukraine (Maidan and the Orange Revolution) were protests from the bottom up by the people against the ruling nomenclature and actions they took.

Telly-tubbie No-oh, Duh time .... That was one reason ... the main reason for OR one was indignation at doctored results .... something STILL at play in Crimea, Russia and Belarus.

To compare as equal events the one to the other is almost biazare, but than again some are delusional.[/font][/size]

Hmm, I have already said - now - three times - that the UA situation was far more serious in human terms ...   

However, the actions of the leaders in '68 were inspirational and I'm truly sorry if anything I've posted suggests otherwise.

You now seem keen to prove who argues for arguments sake too ..what is telling is how you went Trappist - having suggested I lie ...

hmmm

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2018, 10:43:32 AM »
LOL. The go wrestle that with the entire population of Slovakia (since Alexander Dubcek IS (was) a Slovak) and let them know their take on their own history is wrong, and YOU'RE right.

Well, duh.  Who'd a thunk a man with a Slovak surname is a Slovak?

I don't have to wrestle the population.  I just have to read.  If you ever read scholarly works, you would know that even before the collapse of communism, the prevailing view of experts was that Prague Spring was about economic reform. 

Since the collapse of the Eastern bloc, historical documents - meetings of Dubcek with Brezhnev, the KSC's notes on reforms, the Soviet response, etc., have become available to scholars, and numerous works have been written on the era.  From those works, what has changed in the understanding of events (I mean by scholars from before the collapse) is just how haphazard much of those "reforms" were. 

Unlike many other Eastern bloc countries, Czechoslovakia had a strong communist movement in the immediate postwar period, and the communists came to power partly through democratic means.  Communism had not been imposed on the country as it had been in, say, Poland.  Czechoslovakia had also been a concern to the Soviets since at least the removal of Khrushchev, as the KSC made clear to the Soviets they were unhappy with his removal.

There had been a loosening of the levers of control on society long before Dubcek came to power.  Russian archives are full of reports from the embassy in Prague about the activities of dissidents who were allowed to agitate freely.  In 1967, the Writers' Union (which really is where the lack of censorship was centred) held conferences denouncing censorship.  There were strikes across the country by students over their dormitory living conditions.  Crackdowns failed to stop this unrest, which is how the "reformer" arm of the KSC, including Dubcek, gained the upper hand in the party and came to power.

The reformers weren't particularly interested in democratic reform.  Unlike the USSR, Czechoslovakia had a fairly advanced, industrialized economy before WWII.  Dubcek espoused economic reforms, stating that Soviet style socialism did not work economically in his country because conditions were different, and that non state owned or state controlled businesses should be introduced (similar to NEP in the USSR in the 1920's).  By the time the KSC had formulated this economic plan and a plan to introduce it slowly, the Writers' Union, which had not been dealt with at all, had effectively ended censorship.

There were several meetings between Dubcek and the Soviets, and the Soviets warned him of the consequences of failing to rein in a few areas.  One was to take control of the media.  Another was to remove certain KSC members from the party.  The third was to reform the secret police.  When none of these things were implemented by the KSC, the Soviets invaded.  Archive records now prove that most of the "reformers" in the KSC whom Dubcek relied upon were informing on him to the Soviets.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 11:00:59 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2018, 10:51:18 AM »
BO, up there in that Canada, did your University have a monthly copy of "Problems of Communism"
it was published by the US State Dept, sick hospital green cover?

you familiar by any chance, it's been published FOR decades back to the 50s/60s

Wow, blast from the past!  When I was working on my M.A., I had a subscription to Problems in Communism.  In those days, a lot of periodicals were not expensive.  I used to spend days in the periodical room (now closed).  All the Eastern European periodicals were in a separate small room, and I was always the only person in there.  I used to read Commentary, The Journal of East European Studies, The Journal of Comparative Communism, The Journal of Slavic Studies, and the list goes on.  I also used to read all the Soviet newspapers. 

I was introduced to Problems in Communism by one of my professors, who was a Czech who escaped in 1968.  At the time I was studying with him, he was in his sixties, and the rumour was he had ties to the CIA.  There was a similar rumour about one of my American poli sci profs (that he worked for the CIA).  In the latter case, I later learned, from a retired prof that lived in our apartment building, also an American, that the rumour was indeed true. 

Did you study communist systems at university?  Not too many others would be familiar with Problems in Communism.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 11:15:52 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2018, 11:05:01 AM »
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.


Well, it's hardly blasphemous but they are different.  Maidan was a protest about corruption, and corrupt politicians mowed down those protesting their corruption.  That is what lead, directly, to Yanukovych's removal.


Those killed in 1968 were not protesting for freedom.  They were peacefully asking Soviets to leave their country.



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2018, 11:26:29 AM »

Well, it's hardly blasphemous but they are different.<snip>


Phew! Long-winded with way too much noise! However, I'm glad see when all is said and done, you came around and agree. Comparing the two events is akin to comparing a chihuahua to a looney 'toon.


Carry on...
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