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Author Topic: Getting started  (Read 19594 times)

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Offline bobs12

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Getting started
« on: June 27, 2006, 02:38:07 AM »
Hi folks. I don't have any suggestions yet, but with some friends I'd like to start up something of a small-scale introductions agency. Any ideas about some ethical ground rules to set?

I don't know yet whether it will ever come off, but it will be something of a personal service, interviewing women to make sure there are no scams, etc. & making introductions personally.

Fire in the ideas - would you use such a service? Would you prefer not to have a third party 'looking over your shoulder' or would you see it as a 'guiding hand'?
Warning: Events in the past may catch up with you!

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2006, 05:14:16 AM »
I have a couple suggestions.

1st:  See if you can find Isaac.  If he ever fixes his plsce up they way he had planned it would be perfect for an introduction place or just a good place for visitors to stay.

2nd:  Don't introduce them to Lena......(Bob's ex-girlfriend) LOL

I still want to be the first client.

Will
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Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 05:52:37 AM »
Okay, Will gets a free sample ;)
Warning: Events in the past may catch up with you!

Offline Sohkay

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2006, 06:01:04 AM »
The discussion of standards and guidelines seems to be an almost moot point. I say this because the agency business appears to be a declining industry. To start an agency now almost appears as if it's the same as starting a Sony Betamax repair facility. Secondly, the level of scamming by both agencies and participants is still vastly unregulated, by anything other than market forces. This is basically self-regulation, and we all know how well that works when you have the element of human greed involved. It would seem that despite the efforts of truly honest agency operators, these businesses will still attract concentrations of scammer women and scammer operators.

Now, I must tell you I am biased. I have never even set foot inside an agency, yet I have a beautiful Ukrainian woman who may very well become my wife. Early in her foreign men/internet dating experiences, she learned that virtually every agency she worked with was full of scammer women and scammer operators. She found that there were very stupid and base men who attempted to communicate with her through these agencies. She left the agencies and I met her through freepersonals.ru. I have once used the services of an agency in Ukraine to deliver a food basket to a woman. For $80, she received a bunch of bananas, some salty tomatoes, some cheap champagne and some of the items promised in the basket were not there. I saw the photo of her receiving the basket and I was pissed and embarrassed by the crappy appearance of this basket.

I think a more relevant topic of discussion for this board is the development of a set of guidelines for THE CONSUMER of agency services. Yes, I know we have a scam section. But maybe what would be more helpful to the consumers of these services, would be the development of things to watch for and guidelines when dealing with them...sort of a consumer of agency services ten commandments. This board is for the consumer, the end user, isn't it Dan?

I certainly hope this forum doesn't turn into a platform for the agency operators. If it does start to go that way, I know that I'm outta' here. I've even noticed a few out here whose primary motivation for being out here appears to be the promotion of their business ventures. I would hate to see the best FSU women board on the net go that route. Perhaps the best thing to do Dan, would be to provide a "corral" for the people who wish to promote their ventures to the members of this board. That way you got the ponies in a corral, and if a member wants to ride them, well, they know where to go.

Just my 2 kopecka.

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 06:11:25 AM »
The discussion of standards and guidelines seems to be an almost moot point. I say this because the agency business appears to be a declining industry. To start an agency now almost appears as if it's the same as starting a Sony Betamax repair facility. Secondly, the level of scamming by both agencies and participants is still vastly unregulated, by anything other than market forces. This is basically self-regulation, and we all know how well that works when you have the element of human greed involved. It would seem that despite the efforts of truly honest agency operators, these businesses will still attract concentrations of scammer women and scammer operators.

I am not so sure it is declining - though it does appear to be consolidating in some geographies. Still, as the recent site from Sandro points out - with approximately 500 agencies active on the internet at present, there is no shortage of need for establishing some guidelines and standards.

Quote
I think a more relevant topic of discussion for this board is the development of a set of guidelines for THE CONSUMER of agency services. Yes, I know we have a scam section. But maybe what would be more helpful to the consumers of these services, would be the development of things to watch for and guidelines when dealing with them...sort of a consumer of agency services ten commandments. This board is for the consumer, the end user, isn't it Dan?

I certainly hope this forum doesn't turn into a platform for the agency operators. If it does start to go that way, I know that I'm outta' here. I've even noticed a few out here whose primary motivation for being out here appears to be the promotion of their business ventures. I would hate to see the best FSU women board on the net go that route. Perhaps the best thing to do Dan, would be to provide a "corral" for the people who wish to promote their ventures to the members of this board. That way you got the ponies in a corral, and if a member wants to ride them, well, they know where to go.

Just my 2 kopecka.

RWD is not going to turn into an advertising platform. I recently posted some new Guidance so that all might know the policies on advertising in the forums - found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2034.0.

If you think the topic of 'standards' ought to take a course correction, I welcome your contributions to the section and your attempt at the tiller. As you can see, the direction is still forming and is quite malleable.

Cheers!

- Dan

Offline Sohkay

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 06:20:49 AM »
Glad to hear it Dan. I admire your integrity in maintaining the focus.

OK, here's an idea for a guideline.

#1. Always insist on the ability to have a direct line of communication with the woman you're interested in. If the agency doesn't want you to have this, or the woman doesn't want you to have this, it should raise a red flag.

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 06:46:54 AM »
While I agree with the idea of trying to set some sort of rules for this indever.  However I really don't think it is the best course to take.

Bob and I have had this discussion in the past.  Though we have many ideas in common, I will have to agree with sohkay that another Agency probably isn't needed, or practical.

Bob and I have discussed making a different type of Tour Agency that would make it possible for men to meet women in a better settings.  I have also talked to a woman friend of mine that owns an English school in Russia.  Since Bob and I have past experience in Teaching English in Russia I think it would be a better idea to show men how to come over as Teachers, meet women on there own, let them figure it out on there own, but at the same time be there to help out.

With this idea we could show men how to save money traveling, provide a platform for them to meet women that at least know a little English, and do it in a place that doesn't get the regular tourist traffic.  There by cutting down the number of scamming women, and cutting the dating Agency part completely out of the picture.

I have done the internet dating thing, and I can safely say that going to meet just one woman is a total waste of time and money.  Going on a bride tour is way too expensive and two weeks is not long enough to meet a woman you want to marry.

I am not trying to push my Book, but I just wrote a book about this very thing.  it is on my website www.my-russia.org.

I would like to hear whether or not men would be interested in the sort of thing that I am suggesting.  I am not trying to cut you off Bob, but I do believe in my heart that this would be the better dirrection for everyone.

Will

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Offline Kevin

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 07:06:22 AM »
Some of the standards I would like to see.
1. Owners identify on the web site.
2. Office and Agents identified on the web site.
3. Policy pages on every site to include a refund policy.
4. Dated photos

Kevin

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 07:24:07 AM »
While I agree with the idea of trying to set some sort of rules for this indever.  However I really don't think it is the best course to take.

Bob and I have had this discussion in the past.  Though we have many ideas in common, I will have to agree with sohkay that another Agency probably isn't needed, or practical.

Bob and I have discussed making a different type of Tour Agency that would make it possible for men to meet women in a better settings.  I have also talked to a woman friend of mine that owns an English school in Russia.  Since Bob and I have past experience in Teaching English in Russia I think it would be a better idea to show men how to come over as Teachers, meet women on there own, let them figure it out on there own, but at the same time be there to help out.

With this idea we could show men how to save money traveling, provide a platform for them to meet women that at least know a little English, and do it in a place that doesn't get the regular tourist traffic.  There by cutting down the number of scamming women, and cutting the dating Agency part completely out of the picture.

I have done the internet dating thing, and I can safely say that going to meet just one woman is a total waste of time and money.  Going on a bride tour is way too expensive and two weeks is not long enough to meet a woman you want to marry.

I am not trying to push my Book, but I just wrote a book about this very thing.  it is on my website www.my-russia.org.

I would like to hear whether or not men would be interested in the sort of thing that I am suggesting.  I am not trying to cut you off Bob, but I do believe in my heart that this would be the better dirrection for everyone.

Will

Variety of thoughts:

Re: Standards. Like it or not, there are going to be standards imposed. Just consider the IMBRA legislation. These are standards and they establish a minimum amount of information that now must be collected and made available. But that is only the top of the iceberg, and it is also only one-way - defining what the AM must make available for disclosure to FSU women. As Kevin points out in another post - there are a HUGE number of points that should be considered by guys in selection of an agency. Likewise, the women in this should be able to expect a minimum standard of performance from the agencies they contact to represent them. Right?

Well, it makes sense to set down those standards in writing, so that all who subscribe and conform, may be known by their compliance - and offering a reasonable level of assurance to those who would make use of the agency services.

The establishment of standards here, is not in any way directed towards formation of an agency. Quite the opposite really - the establishment of standards would purport to create written guidance that would be recommended to agencies for adoption - and to men and women as criteria for selection of reputable agencies to act on their behalf.

Make sense??

Re: Advertisements. RWD has made the transition from Discussion Forums to a broad Community site. Communities need, and include, members of all sorts. Agency owners, consumers of services and products, purveyors of services and products, married guys with little need of services/products but long on experience - and so on. RWD has made provisions for those members of our community with wares to sell. Those provisions are NOT to be a part of the Discussion Forums - but they are, most certainly, a necessary and valuable part of the overall COMMUNITY aspect of RWD.

As this evolves, there will be need to continue to define and refine the expected conduct of RWD members - and the link to new Guidance I provided above is the first stab at it.

Above all else, RWD needs active and thriving community members who share their experiences and ideas with the rest of us. We are extraordinarily blessed to have the very BEST contributors anywhere. We have the highest quality of posts - the least number of trolls and detractors - the most energetic contributors, of any similar board on the net - by far. And this is only the beginning.

- Dan

Offline jb

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 08:11:37 AM »
Horseman,

Quote
I think it would be a better idea to show men how to come over as Teachers, meet women on there own, let them figure it out on there own, but at the same time be there to help out.

I agree that working as an ex-pat in Russia is the very best way to get one's feet wet with Russians, however, unless a man can do this as a highly paid professional within his own field of expertise, I would discourage any guy from thinking this way.  I would label this particular idea as probably 99% impractical for the majority of the men who surf this board.  Most men are involved in whatever career choices they've made after years of schooling and training, and simply cannot drop their livelihood and take a year's long sabbatical to pursue what for many is pretty much a pipe dream anyway. 

Most of these men are 40+ years old, and are entering into what will be their most productive years as wage earners.  These are the absolute most important years a man has to build upon his professional reputation, to put together an investment plan for his family's future, or just build on his 401K.  To interrupt a viable career at this point, to give up company paid benefits, to let slide at-home responsibilities is just not an option for the majority.   Who's going to make the mortgage payments, car payments, etc.,, while he's off earning starvation wages teaching English in Siberia?  This, for the average guy would be madness, and just might lead to professional suicide.  For certain, such a man would be at some disadvantage when returned home with his new bride and attempts to re-enter the local job market.   The competition for his old job slot will be fierce from younger men, willing to work at entry level salaries, and many with fresh from college degrees. 

I admire your experience and adventure while teaching English in the Russian hinterland, I'm sure you had fun. However, so far I didn't read that you had much success in finding Ms. Right so far yourself.  I do not advocate the use of MOB agencies either as I've never set foot in one, but you seem dead set on preaching that your way is the BEST way, while offering no evidence that you've succeeded in finding a wife for yourself.

Just my 2 cents.

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 09:42:32 AM »
Point Well taken jb

Your correct in that fact that I didn't meet Mrs Right while on my travels.  I though I had after my first teaching trip, Which was only a one month trip.  but I learned a couple lessons from that too.  Believe me I have friends waiting to set me up with new prospects upon my return.

I agree that many men can't take a year off to do there searching.  However for some of them, men like myself, they can take a one month at a time trip.  Another factor for many men is the cost.  The Tour Agencies (Bride Tours) Usually offer two weeks with a price tag for most of these tours running between $3500 and $4500.  This price doesn’t include meals, drinks, taxis, translators, site seeing or any other money you will spend on your dates. 

What I am propossing is to show men how to go to different places (the road less traveled), spend less money,and Hopefully meet a different class of women.

I understand that many of them just can't put their lives on hold while looking.  I couldn't do it either.  I have a Business, house payment and a teenage son to take care of and an elderly mother to keep an eye on myself.  I did put my horse business on hold for a while.  I guess I am one of the lucky one that can.  But my trips only last about 4-6 weeks and I usually spend less than $2000.

I am not agruing anything, just offering different Ideas. 

Bob is a great guy, he has a good head on his shoulders and a lot of get up and go.  Actually I think he could make a good Agency for helping men.  But that idea has been done to death.  Lets try something new.

Will
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline Sohkay

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 09:58:09 AM »
Will,
You wrote, "What I am propossing is to show men how to go to different places (the road less traveled), spend less money,and Hopefully meet a different class of women."

Much, if not all of that information is contained in the pages of this forum and the experiences of others. So, in essence, your business would have to compete with a free internet service.

It's hard to make money when your competing against something that's available for free.

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 10:06:34 AM »
Hi folks. I don't have any suggestions yet, but with some friends I'd like to start up something of a small-scale introductions agency. Any ideas about some ethical ground rules to set?

I don't know yet whether it will ever come off, but it will be something of a personal service, interviewing women to make sure there are no scams, etc. & making introductions personally.

Fire in the ideas - would you use such a service? Would you prefer not to have a third party 'looking over your shoulder' or would you see it as a 'guiding hand'?

I will throw out a few questions:

* Is the agency's client the RW or the WM? Who has first priority?
* Should the agency be obligated to the same disclosures of information on both sides? i.e. If certain types of information is required to be divulged by the WM to the RW - should the RW have the same, or similar, obligations to disclose those items?
* What are the agency's obligations on morality? We have seen Sandro point out the Double-Dealers lists - what should an agency owner do when/if he finds a double-dealer on his site? (AND!! How does he know if she is ACTIVE in the profession - AND!! if she is NOT active - what obligation does the agency owner have to disclose?????)

* What obligation does the agency owner have to allow unfettered exchange of information between the parties?

* What obligation does the agency owner have to protect the 'interests' of the RW - and of the WM ??

* Should the agency owner immediately remove a profile of a RW who is generating a lot of income (i.e. address sales, letter-writing, etc.) for the agency - once the RW advises the agency she is 'committed'?

Folks - there are LOADS of important questions which *NEED* definitive answers and guidance. Let's get on with this, as it really is IMPORTANT - for EVERYONE involved.

- Dan

Offline Michelangelo

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2006, 10:08:00 AM »
Seems to me we should ask the guys who succeeded what worked for them, and what did not work.

In terms of what DID NOT work for me....   Never use an agency that does not let you directly contact the lady.  It's a waste of time and money and is a red flag that you are being scammed.

I agree with JB that the man better not quit his career for a pie in the sky dream of finding a girl. It's better to make your home country your base and make excursions into the FSU.  Then you can return home and think it over, and evaluate outside the temptation area  :)

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.  michelangelo

Offline jb

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2006, 10:26:09 AM »
Excellent questions, Dan.

Except that the hypothetically oriented agency is operating out of the kindness of heart, and not for profit, how could anyone ever trust that there is not somewhere in the woodwork, an agenda that is not in their own best interest? 

Several of us, members who are married, have attempted to "fix up" women we know to be real sweethearts with Western men in the past. Our own match-making experience has been a dismal failure for the most part.  We who actually know these women personally, have trouble washing our hands of the outcome of such a meeting, yet that is the expectation of any man who travels halfway around the globe for a blind date.  He rightly wants to be able to make up his own mind about a woman, and who could blame him... 

I'd say an agency owner has to be completely uninvolved in the personal lives of the clients, otherwise the agency assumes the mother-hen mantle, and nobody ever gets married.  Probably the best you can hope for is a full disclosure of the facts, as best you know them, then let nature take it's course.  People are going to do dumb things no matter how much protective clothing you make them wear. Men in asbestos suits still manage to get burned.

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 10:36:38 AM »
The idea of making guidelines for agencies is good, but when it comes right down to it what is the main goal of the Agency,,,, To make money.  While they may have the best intentions from the start, they will all come to a point where they have to say "What makes money, and What doesn't."

They may not want scaming women, but if those are the ones that bring in the cash they won't have any other choice but to let them stay.  This is if you find an agency that wants to play by the rules in the first place.

Much, if not all of that information is contained in the pages of this forum and the experiences of others. So, in essence, your business would have to compete with a free internet service.

It's hard to make money when your competing against something that's available for free.

It isn't hard to make money this way.  The fact that this information is free on this site only helps my idea.  I don't want to over run this topic with my own ideas,  maybe I will start another post with the intire idea spelled.  I'm not worried about anyone stealing my ideas.  You would have to know quite a few of the right people to make them fly.  I am pertty sure there is plenty of room in Russia for anyone wanting to try it.  I have a lock on the two towns I want to do it in.  In fact the more the merrier.

But there is a need for changing the way thing are done through the Agencies.  So why not creat a different type of Agency?
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 10:47:41 AM »
But there is a need for changing the way thing are done through the Agencies.  So why not creat a different type of Agency?

So what does that agency "look like"?

Lots of businesses are in business to make money. That does NOT mean they have license to behave in an unscrupulous and unethical manner - does it? I do not see ethics and profit motive as being mutually-exclusive. In fact, they can be quite complementary - and that is EXACTLY the goal of the written standards.

If we can establish those guidelines - and if some agencies elect to NOT follow them, so they opt out - and others agree to comply with the standards - at least a guy will have SOME level of assurance that the company they are choosing to do business with accepts, and complies, with some level of ethical guidance to how they conduct business. This does NOT exist today. It is purely individual and word of mouth - which can be bad and good - and we have seen it all played-out on these boards for YEARS AND YEARS. Somebody gets PO'd at their treatment while in Donetsk - and they come onto the boards to cry "FOUL!" and they scream and rant - only to later find out, they were upset because the girl they liked merely didn't like him back. Happens ALL the time.

There needs to be a more objective, defined standard - and that is what we are developing.

So what should the agency of the future look like Will?

- Dan

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 11:51:23 AM »
Ok I guess this is as good as any place to put the idea.

I do understand what you are trying to setup and that guidelines will help.  BUT: You wrote:  I am not so sure it is declining - though it does appear to be consolidating in some geographies. Still, as the recent site from Sandro points out - with approximately 500 agencies active on the internet at present, there is no shortage of need for establishing some guidelines and standards.

With 500 agencies out there how are you going to get them to want to sign on to your ideas.

My idea is to make a connection between Teaching English and the Dating Agency.

1st:  The TEFL indrustry is growing.  People in Russia want to learn English.  They want native English speaking people to come to their school. (Even for short visits)  More native English Teachers means more students. ie the school makes more money.  The school can also setup photo sites to show what women attend their school.  (and without charging any fee to contact the women)

2nd;  The school can help in setting up classes and introduction with women that are interested in meeting foreign men. There are student that jump at the chance to be tour guides just to practice their English.

3rd:  Having Translators (Other Teachers) means less communication problem.

4th: Cost of services will only accure opon the visit. I plan to make a package deal for  $500 per month per visitor.  This fee would be for the service of setting up an Apartment pickup and delivery to the airports and such.


5ht: The only way to make this work is to be connected to the city that you want to start it up in.  Even if you only get one customer a month it could work. (I have other business idea I would be working on in the town beside this)  The whole point is to make if affordable for men to be able to do this while at the same time providing a good service.

I have been approched in Russia about starting a Bride type service.  I rejected the idea on the grounds that I don't agree with that way of meeting women.  A school introduction page allowing a man to contact a women that attends the school only helps the school to get them to come there.  Teaching is not really that involved and most of it consist of just talking to the students.  It is actually fun and doesn't take up that much time.  Leaving plenty of time to visit with women.

jb; My only failure in what I did on my first trip was to hook up with the first one I was introduced to.  from then on I stopped looking.  There are plenty of women that would love a chance to meet men this way.

Less pressure from both sides.

With the average Airfares to Ufa or Samara being about $1200- 1300 the visa cost at $225 (Trough Travisa travel service)  A $500 service fee (Once you get there)  About $150 - 200 for food. you're looking at a total cost of less than $2500.  You will save more money the longer you stay.

My first trip to Belarus cost me $2500 for 10 days and I felt like a pet in a cage waiting for my date to come walk me 4-5 hours a day.  At least this way the men would have something to do.

I am sure I left out a lot,,,, I will rewrite it later and if anyone is interested let me know.
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Re: Getting started
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 12:01:24 PM »
Ok I guess this is as good as any place to put the idea.

I do understand what you are trying to setup and that guidelines will help.  BUT: You wrote:  I am not so sure it is declining - though it does appear to be consolidating in some geographies. Still, as the recent site from Sandro points out - with approximately 500 agencies active on the internet at present, there is no shortage of need for establishing some guidelines and standards.

With 500 agencies out there how are you going to get them to want to sign on to your ideas.

They will only sign-up to the standards *if* they either; (a) agree wholeheartedly and were already conducting business ethically and honestly, or (b) they see that CHANGES to their business model, so that it falls in line with the standards, will ultimately benefit them in the long run.

I honestly don't think it will be too very difficult to get agency owners who are ethical and interested in a 'clean' business - to sign-up for the model. And I think it will be VERY popular with the people who are consumers of the product those agencies are trying to sell.

Quote
My idea is to make a connection between Teaching English and the Dating Agency.

I *like* your idea Will. I like it for several reasons - but the angle of 'giving back' is one aspect which appeals to me. Not sure it will 'play' with everyone, however.

I also wonder how, if at all, the IMBRA legislation might touch on this. It could, potentially, be a way around the IMBRA garbage. Interesting food for thought.

And thanks for being willing to share your thoughts and ideas here.

- Dan

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2006, 12:32:16 PM »
Thanks Dan

Bob had a lot to do with helping me on the idea.  His being an English teacher there in St Petes for so long has made him a valued source of information on the subject.

I have set up a web page for the school in Oktyabrsky.  Guzel is hard as hell to get a hold of, I call her from time to time just to see if she is still alive.  If anyone wants more info that can contact me.  The school year starts at the first of Sept. I am hoping to be there at that time.  the page is: http://www.my-russia.org/page05.html

Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 01:36:40 PM »
Sorry if I jump in with some naiive stuff here folks, go easy on me as I'm not clued up on the whole online dating thing with its attached regulations.

One thing I mentioned before to Will is that while I believe the whole thing is a good idea, I'm not too keen on mixing dating with TEFL. That side of the (TEFL) industry has already taken the shine off native teachers. People pay hard-earned money to learn English here, not meet randy teachers! I can see it working better in more provincial cities where there is more a need for 'English speakers' than 'native TEACHERS'.

However, if there were specific classes set up for women to learn 'dating English', and the teacher was savvy enough to filter out the scammers that turned up to lessons... ;D

But I like the idea that it would work by simply facilitiating introductions, then letting things go from there with some services thrown in along the way.

However, there is no getting away from the reponsibility to the women involved. This kind of thing could easily attract the wrong kind of guy, judging by some of the people that are attracted to TEFL anyway.

Face control?
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Offline Sohkay

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2006, 02:05:29 PM »
I don't like it for the exact reasons Bob mentioned. You could end up with guys who do no justice to the English language education project, thereby angering the schools. Too many potentially conflicting motivations. My gut instinct on this idea is bad.

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2006, 03:10:27 PM »
You could end up with guys who do no justice to the English language education project, thereby angering the schools. Too many potentially conflicting motivations.

This is where careful motitoration of your client base steps in.  There are going to be times that the school will need REGULAR TEACHERS and there will be time for DATING TEACHERS.

Especially in the smaller out of the way cities.  They have a hard time getting regular teachers anyway.  The trick will be to balance the two areas. 

This is where several of my other ideas come in to play.  I have ideas for building the school in a way that it will not rely on a regular flow of teachers and I have ideas that will provide other sources of interest for the men looking to meet women.  All of which are designed for me to stay out of the way and let the men handle there own dates while being there to help out at the same time.

The set won't be as easy as falling off a log, but with the right touch I see potential for at least four related business that will all help in serving each other.  The trick isn't to build a single business that makes a killing, but to build a series of businesses that won't rely on each other to stay a float.

Forums like this will only serve to build the business.  Word of mouth will care it.  Happy customers will do the advertising for it.  But it wouldn't rely on that alone.

Yes there are going to be certain people that won't be happy, but there are those in all areas of business.  Like Dan said "Giving back" is a good point to this too.  The city will see growth through tourism and it will be possible to expand the school adding more local teachers (The city I am talking about is concerned about that)

There is room here for those Rules and Regulation for Agencies that we have been talking about to.
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline Killer-B

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2006, 09:09:28 PM »
I'm not too keen on mixing dating with TEFL. That side of the (TEFL) industry has already taken the shine off native teachers. People pay hard-earned money to learn English here, not meet randy teachers! 

This kind of thing could easily attract the wrong kind of guy, judging by some of the people that are attracted to TEFL anyway.


As a TEFL/CELTA teacher myself (Cambridge) and having lived and taught abroad - Am having a hard time understanding your logic here...

First, are you dinging the ESL teachers? or the women who attend? (I have thoughts either way) - What, in your opinion, has removed the "shine"?

Secondly, What do you mean about teachers attracted to the TEFL programme being the "wrong kinds of guys"?

Cheers -

Killer
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Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2006, 01:29:39 AM »
Korea.
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Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2006, 05:30:56 AM »
Ok,,,, I guess I missed something.  I don't understand the Korea angle.

I Bobs defence.  He has been working in St Petes for the last 4 yrs.  In the short time I was there I saw exactly what he is talking about.  The city is over run with foreign men.  While he and I were sitting in a cafe.  A man walked up to me to say hello because he saw my OU hat through the window, He was from Oklahoma.  I also meet several American men while just walking down the street.  I over heard them talking. And judging from some of the teachers I saw at the schools we went to I would say that there is an element lacking in there style.  They were all younger too.

Men looking for wives tend to be older, more experienced in life, usually a little more educated, and willing to try different aproches,,, ie that is what they are doing in the first place TRYING A DIFFERENT APROCH

Also the point that St Petes is the main home of all the Bride tours. My Idea depends on getting away from that sort of invirenment.

So back to the Relations 'Standards' and Guidelines.... What would apply to my line of thought in a business like this. 
Any input is welcome.

Will
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Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2006, 05:58:30 AM »
Come on,,,, I hate having to respond to my own posts.  What did I do come up with an idea that was good enough that no one could argue?

What about the Guidelines and Rules.  Does anyone think that they would be interested in a dating/teaching type service?  What would you expect from such a service and what do you think about teaching? 

Any input is welcome.... Help me to make a business to help everyone.  That is the main idea here isn't it?

Will
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Offline jb

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2006, 07:02:16 AM »
Will,

I hate to rain on your parade, but I have, in the past, spent a collective 12 months of teaching Russians, (4 months at a time for 3 years).  I am a trained instructor, and I'm here to tell you, not everyone is suited for the task.  If you add in the distraction of searching for a g/f at the same time, I believe the quality of the classroom experience is bound to suffer for the bulk of the student body who have paid good, hard earned, money for the experience.

I know you are in love with the idea of teaching while searching as a way to minimize cost, it's your baby and I don't want to be the one to tear it's arms and legs off, but personally, I don't think it's a sound idea for most men.  If you are that worried about spending, or saving, a few bucks to find a suitable mate, then, IMHO, you may be in the wrong place.


Offline Sohkay

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2006, 07:19:36 AM »
Will,
This could be an historical moment (just kidding), but sincerely, I will second jb's comments on your idea. I think you should take this advice to heart, if you are sincerely looking to start a business of this sort. Not trying to discourage you, but suggesting that this is a "back to the drawing board" moment.

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2006, 09:45:11 AM »
I happen to agree with jb that most men are not suited for teaching.  I also agree that making sure that the classroom doesn't suffer is a huge concern.  I can see that jb is and has been a concerned teacher and that he doesn't want to deminish from the teaching end of the deal.

But being an English teacher I am sure that you have run across classroom that simply needed native speakers to come in and talk to the classes.  The whole idea of the men looking for women doesn't promote them as teachers as much as it uses them as speakers for the classes.  I am also sure that you have notice that most of the schools in Russia would rather keep their students entertained as apossed to actually teaching .... I have read several articles that point this out in detail.  Not that I agree with it. But if you have a somewhat regular flow of native speakers to come to the class and just talk it will keep them entertained while at least offering conversation practice.

This would allow the men to have a jumping off place to meet women that are interested and probably speak some english.  Special classes would be set up for these purposes alone.  I understand that these men are going to want to simply meet a woman ans then spend time with her.  Most of these women have regular jobs and there will be a lot of time for the men to kill while waiting for there new girlfriends (I know I did)

The fact that the school doesn't have to pay extra money for the speakers, but they draw in different student (some interested in dating) this allows the school to afford to add on extra teachers that are quailified to teach properly.  There by insuring that the main base of the students are cared for.  these extra teacher can also sit in on the Dating classes as tranlators. 

I am not trying to make a single business from this idea.  This is only one aspect of a large picture in where I am trying to build up the school.  I have several other plans for the school that don't pertain to visiting men and dating.  I don't expect any more than maybe one or two men a month.  If if doesn't work, it won't effect the other portion of the schools buisness or mine.

I am just as concerned that the school not suffer.  It isn't as though I plan to start cutting men loose to run around acting like teachers.  If I proceed with this (Many thing have to come together first) I plan to screen the men interested as much as possible and be there to oversee potential problems.

Sure the money saving end of it does come into play.  My point being would you rather pay $4500 + for a 2 week Bride tour, or Average total of $2500 for a month in a smaller town that hasn't had the regular tourists screwing it up.

And Thank you for the input... It doesn't hurt for you to point these thing out,,, that is what makes ideas grow.  send me more.
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline jb

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2006, 10:16:34 AM »
Will,

I never said I taught English to Russians, I taught engineering physics, instrumentation, and geophysical exploration concepts to Russians.

I entertained my students during off hours and weekends, during classroom hours it was work, work, work and more work.  I don't know where you got the idea that schools in Russia primarily entertain students, that has not been my experience.  Most Russians I know are pretty serious when it comes to learning, I have found them to be a studious and dedicated bunch. Especially if it's a subject that will lead to professional advancement. 

My wife, for a time before we married, taught English at a private school in Moscow as a second job in the evenings, and she would tell you in a heartbeat that the native speakers, mostly female ex-pat Brits, who were teaching there were very much on the ball during classes.   

Teaching is just a job, you have to work at it to be successful, teaching is a serious business and I'm sure your buddy in St. Pete will comfirm that for you. 

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2006, 11:07:12 AM »
Sorry jb,,, I took it that you had been an English teacher in Russia.

Your qoute "Teaching is just a job, you have to work at it to be successful, teaching is a serious business and I'm sure your buddy in St. Pete will comfirm that for you."

Since Bob has been a active working English Teacher in Russia for the last 4 years (Continuously)  And the fact that he runs a site especially for Teaching and Teachers in Russia and he has been actively working with several schools in St Petersburg.  Some of which he took me alone for introductions.  He will be the First to tell you that a lot of the schools have adopted the philosphy that entertaining is easier than teaching.  I even heard the Qoute "Oh, just keep them entertained" while I was there.

Even though my Teaching experience is limited, I tend to be a quick study.  I know what areas I am good at at what areas I should stay away from.  I am a better manager than teacher. I also believe I did say that this plan included adding on quailfided teachers. 

I happen to have a young girl staying with me at the moment from the small town that I went to.... She is here on a summer job program.  She is a university student.  She has been telling me all about the school work ethic.  Yes some of students do work their butts off and study, while the others are paying off the teachers to give them passing grade.  The only ones that are studying hard are the one that are looking for the work advancement.  Those don't tend to be the one that wouldn't be interested in dating, but again those are the ones that are most interested in conversational English.

So I don't see that poking any holes in my plan at all.  If you want to varify any of this with Bob,,,, I am sure he will be willing to put in his opinion.  He has a good head for business and he is a great teacher,,,, I had the opportunity to watch him work with a woman while I was there.  You can find his site at
http://www.visarus.co.uk/community/index  I have a couple articles posted there and am waiting for Bob to post the last one about Teachers abusing the schools.  I could send you the article if you like.

Thanks
Will
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline jb

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2006, 11:36:53 AM »
Quote
I happen to have a young girl staying with me at the moment from the small town that I went to.... She is here on a summer job program.  She is a university student.

Oh really??? Which university does she attend?

My wife was supposed to return today from Moscow, however her Delta flight was cancelled due to flooding and more rain coming down in Atlanta.  Hopefully she's get home by Saturday.  She, my wife, maintains a close personal working relationship with her alma mater department heads at MSU, Physics Faculity, (Moscow State University), as she also teaches math and physics at the college/university level here.  You have to know how these academic types like to stick together. 

Your young friend might enjoy visiting with a Russian woman college professor in her native language while she's here.  PM me with a phone number if you think to would be a good idea.

Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2006, 12:10:02 PM »
The fact that the school doesn't have to pay extra money for the speakers

I'm sorry Will...  :-[ volunteer teachers can make a mess of wages for both local and foreign teachers... This is something I've been dead against for the last two years. You just might eventually meet with mud-slinging from local teachers unless they get something out of it. Russians are good at being vocal in their opposition to these things, especially in smaller towns. You'd have to make sure it wasn't competing with paid teachers.

JB's point about quality is sound. I'm assuming the students will still be paying for 'lessons', as the schools won't be doing this for free. If they're expecting to learn English, they could well be disappointed... There are enough backpacker 'teachers' who come here to 'teach' while they're distracted by girls, vodka, etc... They're the ones that got local teachers baying for our blood.

JB, as you taught a professional subject you'd likely have been dealing with serious people. Put those same people in an English classroom and you'd probably get them waiting for the clown performance to start. EFL is a very competitive industry here now, marketing on the premise that if you pay more you learn faster. 'Modern' teaching techniques mean making students work hard is the hallmark technique of an 'old-fashioned' charlatan. Sad, but true. I've even been branded 'old fashioned' by one of the biggest schools for suggesting that students should read aloud in class.
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Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2006, 02:51:07 PM »
I do have to take what Bob says as "the word of experience" when it comes to the TEFL world.  However he and I do have several ideas in common, we also occassionally disagree. 

Since on my first teaching trip I did go as a volunteer I can speak a little about it from that perspective.  The regular teachers were more than happy to allow me to do anything that they could get me to do.  Since it made no difference in their pay, They were thrilled.  That is actually the same premise I am perposing.  Nothing would change from their point of view except that they may not have to put out as much effort.

Again I am not talking about  "The backpacker 'teachers' who come here to 'teach' while they're distracted by girls, vodka, etc..."  We are talking about men that are usually in there 40's or 50's and well past the Backpacker stage and have a goal in mind.

jb.  the university that Albina attendes is in Ufa.  She is not the only student to told me such things about the teachers and grade progress.  Don't know if she would be interested in talking to your wife,,, I will ask... I just found her an apartment in the city and another job so i will not be seeing as much of her Hopefully,,,,, (Looking at a pretty young woman after being with out so long is hard on the system).

She is trying to bring her girlfriend here from PA to stay with her.  She will only be here until the end of August.  Then back to school.  I am only helping out.
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2006, 03:15:37 PM »
Everyone seem dead set on telling me why it won't work.  But the comments that it won't work don't seem to be directed at the main point of the idea.

The main idea is to provide a platform for men to meet women in a way that will give them the best opportunity to for a good relationship with a woman. It works the same way for the woman.

Instead of poking holes in the idea,,,, which I think as a lot of potential.  Why not start making the Guideline and regulation for such a business. Stop saying it won't work, and start thinking "what would it need to work".

Everyone in here seems to be of the same mind that "What is out there now isn't working".

Lets build something that does.  We are Americans,,,,(most of us) Americans have never taken "NO" for an answer.  That is why we are where we are. We change, we adapt, we overcome.

Ok,,, I know enough with the Raw Raw...... But think about it.
Oktyabrsky Cowboy

Offline catzenmouse

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2006, 05:40:42 PM »
One thing that I thought of is (for me) it would be interesting to do some conversational teaching when we go to visit the family. Don't need to worry about the girl hunting part as I couldn't find a better one than the one who was blind enough to marry me so that takes one distraction off the table. It would give me something to do when Elena wants to visit her friends or go shopping with her sister and would not only give me a different perspective on the people but probably help my pathetic Russian too.

Ken
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Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2006, 03:58:56 AM »
One thing that I thought of is (for me) it would be interesting to do some conversational teaching when we go to visit the family.

Ken - keep her away from opticians, they're much cheaper over here :)

Depending where the family is I might be able to point you to a couple of places that'll take you up on that.
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Offline catzenmouse

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2006, 04:51:54 AM »
bobs,

 This would be in Omsk. South Central Siberia. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
 Ken
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Offline TheHorseman

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2006, 05:13:09 AM »
I think Bob is your best bet for finding a school there Ken.  I also think it is a great way to give yourself something to do and meet people at the same time..... good luck with it.

I seem to be wayning the opposition to my idea,,, but I still don't see any suggestions on what would make it better.  I will take it that I have countered enough of the "It Won't Work" points to at least have people thinking it has possibilities.

And Bob,,, I think you would be the perfect Director for this type of thing.  You speak Russian, you are a quailified teacher and you know what the students need and want.  I also think your knowledge of Russian women would be a plus for the men.
Think about it.

Will
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Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2006, 02:48:35 PM »
Okay, I'm thinking :) From looking at the site that's the subject of *the other* topic I started & from what we spoke about way back when you first mentioned the idea, I think I've seen something that could make it work, on the lines of the kind of guys that would be attracted. Need to sleep on it though, may write from Estonia if I get a chance.

Ken - unfortunately the only place I know of in Omsk is the British Council, I'll look for others. Stay away from any schools called 'English First', 'Language Link' or 'BKC' - they don't deserve your help :)

Try contacting them - details are at http://esl.visarus.co.uk/in/RU/Russia/schools/view/138.asp - ask them if they have anything like reading clubs or whatever. I don't know whether BC in Omsk is a teaching centre or just a resource centre. Either way, BC's are often very helpful and may well be able to recommend a nice small school where you'd have a good time. The smaller the school, the better.

If you get in touch, could you mention that I sent you? I'd love to get some more schools from Siberia signed up on my site, it's becoming a popular destination for teachers.
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Offline catzenmouse

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2006, 02:54:32 PM »
Bobs,

 Thanks much. I went ahead and registered with the site so that I can move around it more freely and have the contact information. Will do on the reference.

Ken
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Offline bobs12

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Re: Getting started
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2006, 02:50:58 PM »
Hope it's useful! Logging in only gives you the email and fax (stops schools from getting spammed =) but the best thing before emailing really is to call.

Let me know if you have any questions & I'll try to help. Will is also a good source on this as he's been much further out into the sticks than I have. I get jealous occasionally...  ;)
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Re: Getting started
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2006, 09:38:25 AM »
I agree with what JB posted earlier on.  When I was in the search mode the last thing I could contemplate was dropping my career to teach English in Russia.  I think the average established guy in this country is in no position and is not desperate enough to drop his profession for a pie in the sky year to teach English to people with the hopes of finding a bride along the way.  Young kids out of college who want to live abroad - sure they could spare the year.  Established quality guys, no way.  Chances are the guys who do not have a good career who drop what amounts to nothing to go over and teach English will not be able to hold a FSU woman here if they are able to attract one. 

Matters of the heart are very difficult to program.  Guys and girls can only be introduced and helped with their surroundings / language. 

As far as standards I think it is up to the agency to set and uphold its own high standards.  Hopefully, the wheat will separate from the chaffe.  Unfortunately, it seems that the good agencies go down and the unscrupulous / scam agencies thrive.   

"A word is dead when it is said, some say.  I say it just begins to live that day."  Emily Dickinson

 

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