Responses to Introductory Posts

[Admin]

The Introduction forum of RWD was intended to be a forum which would allow new members to post information about themselves and their motivations and reasons for participating at RWD. It was also intended as a forum in which new members could tell us how we might be able to *HELP* them.

It was NEVER intended as a forum for criticism and name-calling.

I am, therefore, seriously considering converting the Introductions forum to one in which replies are NOT allowed.

Before I do that, I will open THIS topic for discussion of the proposed change.

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

I'll guess that this is in reference to Chris1016's intro (but have also seen it happen in other threads.

Perhaps an alternate solution would be to just delete the posts that go off on a tangent with a reminder to the offending poster(s) and only lock the thread if it becomes a continuous barb fest. We've seen many into threads that have evolved quite a bit with great information in them.

By limiting this section to read only it would probably just generate one or more other threads in another area for those who wish to comment on the original poster (like what happened with the TR Sans Responses) which would not change the end result.

I do feel that an intro should be just that with the allowance that the responses are kept in the same light. Perhaps with some encouragement by the members to ask any questions mentioned in the intro in another section thus prompting the new member to be more active.

FWIW,
 Ken

[William3rd]

Intro threads to be monitored or moderated? Might help. But sometimes NOTHING will help a high-strung, thin-skinned poster.

You make the call, Dan. . . . .

[jb]

This generally happens when the cheer leader section attacks the messenger rather than the message.

[SANDRO43]

I agree with Ken's views. I wonder if some members here would extend the same type of "courtesy" to new visitors to THEIR homes . BTW, about time to lock up Re: Hi I'm new here and any information or help is welcome!, IMHO.

[Jazzyclassy]

To my mind Dan, we should leave the feature to reply to people

just we are really so angry for the past few months I think people need some pills of generousity

it is just unfair to bring down the person no matter how he looks, what is his profession, we should be welcoming him/her and be very postive and friendly as long as this person came with peace and wants information and communication on appropriate level
Finally who are we to judge his way of life and which clothing he is comfortable in
or which food he prefers

I agree we can be suspicious to those who really show some trolling behaviour but I doubt people should be so scornful and insulting to normal newbies !

 

[Gator]

We could have a designated greeter that says to each new "Hi Chris, welcome to RWD, where all posters are above average. Now go to the "Starting Out" forum and tell us more about what you are hoping to accomplish.  There we can help you with suggestions, but beware that you may receive criticism."

People like Chris will receive criticism sometime, somewhere.  Why delay it?

 

[Admin]

I'll guess that this is in reference to Chris1016's intro (but have also seen it happen in other threads.

Perhaps an alternate solution would be to just delete the posts that go off on a tangent with a reminder to the offending poster(s) and only lock the thread if it becomes a continuous barb fest. We've seen many into threads that have evolved quite a bit with great information in them.

By limiting this section to read only it would probably just generate one or more other threads in another area for those who wish to comment on the original poster (like what happened with the TR Sans Responses) which would not change the end result.

I do feel that an intro should be just that with the allowance that the responses are kept in the same light. Perhaps with some encouragement by the members to ask any questions mentioned in the intro in another section thus prompting the new member to be more active.

FWIW,
 Ken

My personal preference is to leave all the forums open to reply - but that assumes our more outspoken/opinionated members will allow new members some 'breathing room' to get their feet on the ground.

I have asked, both publicly and privately, for our OMB's to give the new folks a break and let us get to know them a bit before busting on them - but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

I think some of us fail to recall how intimidating it felt for us to make the first post on a public forum. And even if that does not apply to us individually, anyone with a shred of empathy would recognize that it most certainly DOES affect some people. Further, when we jump on a new member and give instant criticism - HARSH criticism, I should add - it acts as a huge deterrent to others to be willing to post here at all. It is, in fact, counter to the objectives and values of RWD.

I am interested in alternatives, so feel free to comment further.

- Dan

[Misha]

I propose an OMB theme song: It's Hard to be Humble by Mac Davis. It would put first time posters in the mood for RWD 

Here are a few choice lyrics:

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror

'cos I get better looking each day
to know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.
O Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.

[ScottinCrimea]

it is just unfair to bring down the person no matter how he looks, what is his profession, we should be welcoming him/her and be very postive and friendly as long as this person came with peace and wants information and communication on appropriate level
Finally who are we to judge his way of life and which clothing he is comfortable in
or which food he prefers

I disagree.  We are here to offer advice on how best to meet their objective.  This involves judging a person to the extent that we who know the ropes can say, what about them will give a greater chance of success and what won't. We can't just say, "Oh, everything about you is wonderful and I'm sure you can find a wonderful woman and not necessary to change anything."

I agree that some of the comments lately have been a bit too harsh and maybe should be toned down, at least in the beginning.  I know that some think this helps to weed out those who are too thin-skinned or just too inappropriate for this venture, but I think that more often then not it just drives them to other sites where they will find the cheerleading section that will encourage them on to their destruction.

There is no easy answer to this question but I think for now we should just leave it as is and see if Dan's note of concern will calm things down a bit.

[BillyB]

I am, therefore, seriously considering converting the Introductions forum to one in which replies are NOT allowed.

Personally, I like to be able to reply in an intro thread. Many people feel welcomed when people reply in their into thread and they have a positive experience.

Some newbies are using bad agencies, bad methods and simply doing things wrong and will get criticised whether in an intro thread or another. Sometimes when I feel I need to criticise someone, I let them know what they do right and compliment them and then tell them what they need to change or work on. That way they don't feel I'm attacking for the fun of it and they feel my criticism of them is done for their benefit. There will be no mistaking. Delivering your message is as important as the message itself. It's up to our regular members to self adjust on the delivery to get their message across.

When FSUrookie was going through his problems, I encouraged him to write about it as it would be a good learning experience for other newbies. He was embarrassed about it and thought he would be roasted and criticised to no end and intially didn't want to say much further. But he did write about it more and I think his thread has become educational for others and he did not get beat up as much as he thought. Now I'm encouraging him to write about his journey back into this endeavor as he has been on the side of failure and hopefully soon on the side of success and maybe he will be able to be an example others on how guys can turn things around. But I guarantee he will not write anything if he was constantly bashed. It's hard enough to admit your mistakes in an open forum. We've all done stupid things in our life we prefer not to bring out in the open for criticism.

It may surprise many but there are a lot of lurkers and newbies who don't participate much or withhold info when they do participate just because they may be attacked and be labeled as stupid. They'll just read quietly till they find a story similar to their own and read the solutions. If they don't find their answers in a thread, they'll prefer to use the school of hard knocks instead of asking for it here.

I can handle boot camp, been there and even graduated as a squad leader. But if given a choice, most people in the civilian world would just avoid boot camp although it may make them a better person. I understand a drill seargent must teach the way he does in the military, but most drill seargents are different people outside of the military if they want to get their message across to others. I can handle getting yelled at and insulted by drill seargents but I know I wouldn't want to be in an environment where there's a drill Sergeant 24/7. What's that old saying? If you can't handle a drill seargent, you won't be able to handle a RW.

[KenC]

Dan,
I do not think there is a significant problem in the introduction area.  Scan through the thread starters here and you will find that this section is working as it should.  A brief introduction and many warm welcomes.

Where it got off line, with Chris, is when the thread began to take a turn from the intended function of this section.  In his thread title, he was welcoming advice and help.  Then he received it (in a gentle and polite manner) he rejected the advice and defended an alternative view from what is generally accepted as good advice here.  That is when all hell broke loose.

The point many are missing, is that Chris made the decision to leave RWD after he was made aware of the time demands this pursuit requires.  He stated he did not have the time to do this and said his farewells.  Later he cam back and posted "I made a mistake" thread as some form of retrobution for the criticism he received.

#1 Chris solicited advice and got it.  Maybe that is not the intended function of the introduction section.
#2 Chris choose the introduction section for a retaliatory thread directed at his critics,  That I am sure is a thread that should not belong here.

All in all, the section is working as it should with one small exception.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

    I disagree.  We are here to offer advice on how best to meet their objective.  This involves judging a person to the extent that we who know the ropes can say, what about them will give a greater chance of success and what won't. We can't just say, "Oh, everything about you is wonderful and I'm sure you can find a wonderful woman and not necessary to change anything."
   

so soon you will criticise anything you want and anyone who can have self respect to be here

it's been annoying very much and I see no reason to be silent about such behaviour of many people here

Maybe they want to be left alone : Ken C, Gator, JB ,ScottinCrimea  and Turbo and then there will be none else to be criticised , and we will see which kinda forum they will have here

-Rah Rah Rah Old bastard

- No it's you who are Old bastard
Rah Rah bla bla bla

people are getting fed up with this!

[William3rd]

Dont worry, Jazzy- you and I will be old bastards too someday. Well, I will be anyway. What is the distaff equivalent to old bastard anyway?

[Jazzyclassy]

Dont worry, Jazzy- you and I will be old bastards too someday. Well, I will be anyway. What is the distaff equivalent to old bastard anyway?

of course I will be old bastard, Billie , but i hope I wont be so so so cruel and too way scornful

[Simoni]

The Introduction forum of RWD was intended to be a forum which would allow new members to post information about themselves and their motivations and reasons for participating at RWD. It was also intended as a forum in which new members could tell us how we might be able to *HELP* them.

It was NEVER intended as a forum for criticism and name-calling.

I am, therefore, seriously considering converting the Introductions forum to one in which replies are NOT allowed.

Before I do that, I will open THIS topic for discussion of the proposed change.

- Dan

Good points, Dan.

I read that thread backward to forward, and something was simply "not right."

So I read all of the five posts by Chris.  What I read did not "jive" with the real Chris.

Posters had created a "straw man" that was not Chris, and attacked him.
_______________________________________
The real Chris wrote, after his dress was attacked in his profile pic:

~ "Yes, this is a old picture and doesn't do a good job of reflecting who I am but I am in a suit 60 hours a week for work and I will not wear one when I am supposed to be enjoying myself."

It took a real leap to assume from his profile pic that he always dressed like that.
_______________________________________

~ Chris responded when people continued to attack his appearance...
"I was pretty much under the impression that it was mostly guys and married women here, so I was not very picky."

That makes sense to me.
_______________________________________

But after this explanation, people continued to attack this "straw man."

*They attacked his dress (even I posted about this, not realizing that Chris had never asked about dress and has actually posted that he DOES dress differently for different situations or occasions.)

*They attacked his language use or spelling.  I post on half a dozen sites, and what most people here don't realize is that RWD is a very FORMAL site in terms of language usage. Most sites see communications as "first drafts" and posters do not use formal grammar or spellings.  You have to be on this site for a while to see that is NOT the norm here.  So a new poster who simply introduces himself should be given some "slack."

*They attacked his geography, with some degree of ignorance.  I was in Panama City about a month ago, and my stretch of the beach was covered with condos that ranged in price from one to three million.  And the beach?  One of the finest in the world. And yes, I am a proponent of taking fsu girls to big cities to live, but to tell Chris that no girl would live there was, IMHO, very poor advice indeed.

SO-- I think different standard should be in place in the introduction thread and newcomers should be welcomed, not run away before they can see the true good that is at RWD.

[jb]

What I find most amusing is that those who are getting the most annoyed here, are the same ones with the least amount of experience with AM/RW relationships. 

Sure, we could all be sweetness and light to the newbie, but the value of RWD would vanish like a wisp of smoke in the night.  The strength of RWD lies in the depth of experience in cross cultural marriages, not in the shallowness of it's advice to the newbie.   There are those who should remember that.

Dan, this is 2007, not 1992. the internet is not a new toy.  I seriously doubt there is a potential new poster out there who has never taken part in some kind of an online discussion forum before.  If a person is THAT unsure of why he/she has joined a group like this, then maybe the tough love is well deserved.

Simoni,

Very nicely put, however, Chris did not say he was from Panama City Beach, he said he lived in Panama City, FL.   There's a difference.   You PM'ed me on a correction about punctuation within and without the "quotes", I am aware of the rule and very rarely violate it,,, I do make typos from time to time.  However, I know the difference between "no" and "know", and "there" and "their", just to mention a few.  I've also been to the Florida panhandle recently, there are folks there who do not speak English.  I'm from the South, and even I'd need a translator to stay there for very long.

[ScottinCrimea]

so soon you will criticise anything you want and anyone who can have self respect to be here

it's been annoying very much and I see no reason to be silent about such behaviour of many people here

Maybe they want to be left alone : Ken C, Gator, JB ,ScottinCrimea  and Turbo and then there will be none else to be criticised , and we will see which kinda forum they will have here

-Rah Rah Rah Old bastard

- No it's you who are Old bastard
Rah Rah bla bla bla

people are getting fed up with this!

Jazzy, I'm starting to think that perhaps you are bipolar.

[KenC]

Simoni,
Your "strawman" posted:


I will not wear one [suit] when I am supposed to be enjoying myself. Maybe I am a bit hard headed or difficult but thats me. Also I do not want someone to start liking something I am not and then me change back to me. I am glad all of this was brought to the front before  I wasted any time.

(This displays his willingness to ignore suggestions to improve his look.  His "style" was more important that his drive to find a RW)

 would never show up to meet a young woman in jeans and a ball cap but I would feel alot better them knowing that is what I prefer. As I said I want someone to get to know me as I am

(More inflexibility)

Ihave decided to wait is the time. Right now with a new business just kicking off and another only 3 years old I do not have the free time to go out and do the searching meeting and dates I would need to really meet someone. I hope that in the next year or two I will be able to take a little more time off

(The real reason he left)

until I am able to take the time off I don't think I will start searching. Thanks again to everyone who gave there imput

(A rather amicable farewell)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The real harshness came after fellow members began to find fault in the criticism of Chris' dress.  Turbo reversed himself (oh what a surprise) and began to encourage Chris to wear his jeans and ball cap.  Which we all know is piss poor advice.  That is what makes Turbo one of the most dangerous posters here.  In an attempt to be a nice guy, he takes up for the underdog (as he sees it) and encourages newbies to take unnecessary risks.  Chris leaving is probably a good thing as he was set up to be another Turbo victim.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC,

All in all, the section is working as it should with one small exception.

Now that is a pragmatic observation.

Simoni,
I made the wisecrack about Panama City (and I have been there).  However, I also advised Chris about the time and money involved.  He bowed out because of the time required, a very wise decision considering his businesses.  So I do not feel that the Panama City wisecrack hindered him from learning what was best for him.  His RW of the summer must have been easy pickings, and when first posting here maybe he thought getting a RW was like picking low hanging fruit or putting a collar around a puppy in a pet store.

With regard to Panama City, I failed to mentioned that our beloved and highly educated Muscovite Donna Pedro is married and living somewhere in the Panhandle.

[Admin]

What I find most amusing is that those who are getting the most annoyed here, are the same ones with the least amount of experience with AM/RW relationships. 

Sure, we could all be sweetness and light to the newbie, but the value of RWD would vanish like a wisp of smoke in the night.  The strength of RWD lies in the depth of experience in cross cultural marriages, not in the shallowness of it's advice to the newbie.   There are those who should remember that.

Dan, this is 2007, not 1992. the internet is not a new toy.  I seriously doubt there is a potential new poster out there who has never taken part in some kind of an online discussion forum before.  If a person is THAT unsure of why he/she has joined a group like this, then maybe the tough love is well deserved.

Simoni,

Very nicely put, however, Chris did not say he was from Panama City Beach, he said he lived in Panama City, FL.   There's a difference.   You PM'ed me on a correction about punctuation within and without the "quotes", I am aware of the rule and very rarely violate it,,, I do make typos from time to time.  However, I know the difference between "no" and "know", and "there" and "their", just to mention a few.  I've also been to the Florida panhandle recently, there are folks there who do not speak English.  I'm from the South, and even I'd need a translator to stay there for very long.

John,

You are correct that there is HUGE value in the experiences of the many and varied OMB's who are RWD members. I think - I hope - I have been dutifully (and sincerely) appreciative of their many many contributions over the years and the generosity of their advice for others.

At the same time, we also spent a significant amount of time and energy developing and publishing our Vision and Values position which unequivocally ENCOURAGES diversity, tolerance and civility (among other core values). Candidly, I do not see heavy-handed criticism of a new member's posts as being consistent with those values. There is a place for being brutally-honest with someone - but that falls far short of slinging insults and name-calling.

It has been stated before, and I guess it needs restatement frequently - but when a person makes the decision to criticise another, they have the option to present it in a way that is productive and well-received (Gator's and BillyB's posts are prime examples), or not. Everyone, OMB's included, are expected to contribute in ways that are productive and respectful. There is simply no need for disrespectful, condescending, or hurtful discourse. It not only is hurtful to the member who is 'targeted', but it is hurtful to RWD.

- Dan

[KenC]

Geez, Dan,
I think you better reread that thread!  WmGO very respectfully brought the subject of Chris' attire up in his post and jb seconded the notion with a photo comparason of Chris with a RW.  The words read "You may want to clean up a bit" are no where as inflammatory as you suggest here.  You using Gator as an example of how to deliver criticism is a hoot too because it was Gators crack about Panama City that was the first harsh words posted.
KenC

[Admin]

Geez, Dan,
I think you better reread that thread!  WmGO very respectfully brought the subject of Chris' attire up in his post and jb seconded the notion with a photo comparason of Chris with a RW.  The words read "You may want to clean up a bit" are no where as inflammatory as you suggest here.  You using Gator as an example of how to deliver criticism is a hoot too because it was Gators crack about Panama City that was the first harsh words posted.
KenC

Ken,

My comments are directed at more than just the one thread. I meant the comments more globally.

I think it is a very fine line we walk - especially with people who are not familiar with our established OMB's. We need the experience and the brutal honesty of the OMB's among us. We also do NOT need to be so harsh in our choice of criticisms (style, if you will) that we drive people away and prevent others from even posting.

I reject the argument that anyone who elects to NOT post at RWD because of the harsh criticism is simply not tough enough to 'make it' with an RW. I know of plenty of examples of VERY strong and self-sufficient guys who simply decided they don't need to listen to the criticism. I think BillyB's post up-thread says just about everything I had in mind when opening this issue.

Personally, I like to be able to reply in an intro thread. Many people feel welcomed when people reply in their into thread and they have a positive experience.

Some newbies are using bad agencies, bad methods and simply doing things wrong and will get criticised whether in an intro thread or another. Sometimes when I feel I need to criticise someone, I let them know what they do right and compliment them and then tell them what they need to change or work on. That way they don't feel I'm attacking for the fun of it and they feel my criticism of them is done for their benefit. There will be no mistaking. Delivering your message is as important as the message itself. It's up to our regular members to self adjust on the delivery to get their message across.

When FSUrookie was going through his problems, I encouraged him to write about it as it would be a good learning experience for other newbies. He was embarrassed about it and thought he would be roasted and criticised to no end and intially didn't want to say much further. But he did write about it more and I think his thread has become educational for others and he did not get beat up as much as he thought. Now I'm encouraging him to write about his journey back into this endeavor as he has been on the side of failure and hopefully soon on the side of success and maybe he will be able to be an example others on how guys can turn things around. But I guarantee he will not write anything if he was constantly bashed. It's hard enough to admit your mistakes in an open forum. We've all done stupid things in our life we prefer not to bring out in the open for criticism.

It may surprise many but there are a lot of lurkers and newbies who don't participate much or withhold info when they do participate just because they may be attacked and be labeled as stupid. They'll just read quietly till they find a story similar to their own and read the solutions. If they don't find their answers in a thread, they'll prefer to use the school of hard knocks instead of asking for it here.

I can handle boot camp, been there and even graduated as a squad leader. But if given a choice, most people in the civilian world would just avoid boot camp although it may make them a better person. I understand a drill seargent must teach the way he does in the military, but most drill seargents are different people outside of the military if they want to get their message across to others. I can handle getting yelled at and insulted by drill seargents but I know I wouldn't want to be in an environment where there's a drill Sergeant 24/7. What's that old saying? If you can't handle a drill seargent, you won't be able to handle a RW.

I also think we need to consider the Values we spent time developing - and ask ourselves if a critical post is in-keeping with the RWD Vision/Values?

I can see no possible example where name-calling and personal insults would be considered consistent with those Values.

- Dan

[Turboguy]

Well to me it seems that if someone wants to introduce themselves some responses welcoming them are a good thing.   Not allowing responses would lead to a monolog that probably would end the introductory posts.   I do have to agree with Dan that new people when they see others ridiculed would tend to be afraid to post.   When they see a photo posted and people laugh at it and say he looks like a slug I think it would make them hesitate to post a photo. 

Perhaps some think it is alright to post his photo as one an attractive and sophisticated woman would want nothing to do with.  I look at is as similar to when Manchester I believe it was snatched KenC avatar to post for ridicule on another site.   Shows just the same amount of class. 

Ken, I am going to have to reread the thread because I don't remember seriously saying he should wear the hat but I do recall using a comment about something of that order to make a point but not as a serious suggestion.   The hat is find for fishing in the ocean but not for fishing for RW.

[Simoni]

I also think we need to consider the Values we spent time developing - and ask ourselves if a critical post is in-keeping with the RWD Vision/Values?

I can see no possible example where name-calling and personal insults would be considered consistent with those Values.

- Dan

And that was he essence of what I was trying to say up thread...you say it here much better.

I do think that tough love is needed sometimes, and yes, I do have questions about a 28 year old who became infatuated with fsu girls because he met one on her summer vacation.  But there are kind and motivating ways to deliver that message.  Harsh words, and in this case incorrect words, simply turn away new members who just MIGHT grow and benefit from RWD and eventually contribute, rather than being turned away with such nonsense.