RW will not answer a direct question.

[wiz]

GATOR in what is wrong with America (yesterday)

I find that most RW will not answer a question directly, especially a question that places them on the defensive.  Instead they will try to reverse the situation and retort with a question intended to put me on the defensive.  RW are actually good at this, as if it is a traditional way of life.  From what does this talent derive?  I would appreciate an intelligent, well adjusted RW (or an observer of RW) explaining the source of this tactic.

Groovlstk

You'll never know just how deep this reflex (and skill) is bred unless you find yourself in the unpleasant situation of having to confront your Russian g/f about her infidelity. You could have witnessed her playing hide-the-salami in hi-def only moments before, yet after her retort you'll find yourself scratching your head and wondering if she has a twin sister or a stunt double. Western men are ill-equipped to handle this sort of guile out of the box.

I read these comments by Gator and Groov in the other thread and realised that I was not the only one that recognized and experienced this RW trade but other men too.

Lily suggested starting a new thread here so I obligate to her, because I also want to find out the reasons behind this tactic.

As Gator said,

I would appreciate an intelligent, well adjusted RW (or an observer of RW) explaining the source of this tactic.

[Lily]

GATOR in what is wrong with America (yesterday)

Groovlstk
 
Lily suggested starting a new thread here so I obligate to her, because I also want to find out the reasons behind this tactic.
 

Please don't feel obligated to me wiz 

Need to specify, though.

Are we talking of non-answering direct questions in communication with your prospect, or are we talking about replies on the forum?

[wiz]

Please don't feel obligated to me wiz 

Need to specify, though.

Are we talking of non-answering direct questions in communication with your prospect, or are we talking about replies on the forum?

For an attractive woman like you Lily I will happily obligate...

Of course I refer to direct communication with Russian women and in a lesser scale the answers on the board.

[Lily]

If a woman is corresponding with her prospect, some of the reasons of not answering the questions directly would be

- she is concerned that you may not like her answer
- she is concerned that she may not properly communicate to you her answer (less likely  )
- she had read your letter and is so overwhelmed with emotions that she nearly forgot the content of your letter 
- her point is she did answer all you questions but you just failed to understand what she meant in her reply

no more options on my end so far  other ideas?

[Kvinna]

If a woman is corresponding with her prospect, some of the reasons of not answering the questions directly would be

- she is concerned that you may not like her answer
- she is concerned that she may not properly communicate to you her answer (less likely  )
- she had read your letter and is so overwhelmed with emotions that she nearly forgot the content of your letter 
- her point is she did answer all you questions but you just failed to understand what she meant in her reply

no more options on my end so far  other ideas?

Она чувствует подвох

[Lily]

Kvinna,

do you mean to say that a woman may sense something suspicious about this man and this may be a reason for her not to answer his questions?

[wiz]

The Original question makes more reference to direct communication with a RW.

Let me give you a more clear simple example.

A man has a relationship with a woman for sometime and one day you ask her:

Man: What do you feel about me?

RW: mmm.....What do you think?

Man: Do you love me?

(RW does not give you a spontaneous clear answer of YES or NO and take some time....)

RW: .......... Of course but not sure what is love? And You?

[Lily]

In this dialogue, woman is probably not quite sure about her feelings to him and tries to split the meaning of the very word in order to see whether there is some chance for her to fit into one of the meanings. 

After that, she simply brings the ball in his court.

I don't think this would be typical for RW but rather for W generally, of any nation 

[ScottinCrimea]

I have learned with my wife never to ask a yes/no question because she will never give me a yes/no answer.  I have seen this with other RW also, so I know it's not just her.  In contrast, they expect yes/no decisions of their men.

[wiz]

In this dialogue, woman is probably not quite sure about her feelings to him and tries to split the meaning of the very word in order to see whether there is some chance for her to fit into one of the meanings. 

She simply doesn't love him to answer spontaneously, YES or NO, but still want to keep her options open.

Both questions are very clear and straight forward and don't allow room for manouvre but a RW always will find the way not to answer straight!

Admiting to something that will commite her is not in her nature.


ScottinCrimea

Totally agree with you according to my recent experience.

[Daveman]

Something I've thinking about, which may be way off base here.  But, thinking back on as many of the times I can think of where I couldn't get a yes/no direct answer to something.  The lady seemed to be wanting to avoid making a decision but rather "herd" me toward the answer/decision she thought I should make as the "strong man".

It is as if she expected me to be the one to smack the gavel down on everything. She expects a yes/no from me because whatever that answer is, it's a direct strong answer, but she doesn't give the strong answer of yes/no, but rather tries to move me to the position she wants me to hold and then for me to whack the gavel with the final answer (even though it may be her true feelings and answer).  Even with some arguments this seemed to be true.. throwing the ball back in my court until I got her point, then I would resolve the issue with a strong answer and the argument would simply dissipate. BOOM, it was over.

Is it possible this seeming evasive behavior could be related to the strong/weak positions of the man/woman in relations?  From the weak position in the relationship, she's used to using this kind of manipulation to get her man to choose the answer she's looking for, but expects him to be the one who has strong definitive answers.

At this moment, it seems logical.

Dave

[Lily]

Is it possible this seeming evasive behavior could be related to the strong/weak positions of the man/woman in relations?  From the weak position in the relationship, she's used to using this kind of manipulation to get her man to choose the answer she's looking for, but expects him to be the one who has strong definitive answers.

At this moment, it seems logical.

Dave

This explanation makes sense to me. However, it is not particularly a Russian-specific feature.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, i think this questions is very interesting and more into psychology of all women, not just Russian.

I suppose here is the thread where my husband could contribute. But i think he doesn't have problem like that with me. i am such a yes or no person and want that from my man.

But there are some examples we all know that i can't help writing about. For example famous "And why did you decide to correspond with an American man? You can't find a man there, can you?..." where of course we reply "And why are YOU searching among Russian women? You can't find American girls there, can you?.."

Ridiculous, frustrating, rude, what's the point...

Women react that way because they know that a man wants to put a blame on her while he himself is at some fault too, and sometimes even bigger fault.

The simple solution to this is for a man to just ask the same question but in a loving and caring way.

Also, especially at first stages of the relationship, courtships and such, woman wants to be secretive and thus more interesting to her man, playful and flirty, and that's when she can answer this way too. It is part of that exciting game.

[wiz]

Well, i think this questions is very interesting and more into psychology of all women, not just Russian.

I suppose here is the thread where my husband could contribute. But i think he doesn't have problem like that with me. i am such a yes or no person and want that from my man.

But there are some examples we all know that i can't help writing about. For example famous "And why did you decide to correspond with an American man? You can't find a man there, can you?..." where of course we reply "And why are YOU searching among Russian women? You can't find American girls there, can you?.."

Ridiculous, frustrating, rude, what's the point...

Women react that way because they know that a man wants to put a blame on her while he himself is at some fault too, and sometimes even bigger fault.

The simple solution to this is for a man to just ask the same question but in a loving and caring way.

Also, especially at first stages of the relationship, courtships and such, woman wants to be secretive and thus more interesting to her man, playful and flirty, and that's when she can answer this way too. It is part of that exciting game.

We talk here about Russian women and how they behave in a relationship and not about any other women. I am old enough and had relationships in the past and I can site many examples of the opposite behaviour from the one you state Lily, “it is not particularly a Russian-specific feature”. but dear Lily it is!

Unfortunately is very prevalent to Russian women that type of behaviour and the mind games they play and here in the west is more similar to the one Anastasia said: “I am such a yes or no person and want that from my man.” I am not sure if Anastasia was behaving the same way when she was in Russia but sure enough now she behaves as she should. A straight answer to a straight question and that is why she found happiness quickly as she does not appear to play any mind games.

Sorry Anastasia but I do not agree, speaking from my own experience, that a man who loves a woman will want to put any blame to his woman when he is at fault. He may try to find many excuses why he did what he did and say sorry but unfortunately is the RW who will not admit that she was at fault and say sorry, who tries to twist everything with such tactics and blame the man.It is NEVER her fault for anything and is the man who done everything wrong!

Gator said:

Instead they will try to reverse the situation and retort with a question intended to put me on the defensive.

And he is absolutely right!

He obviously had such an experience as I had too and I find incredible their capacity to do that.

I understand your point in your last paragraph: “especially at first stages of the relationship ………etc” and it doesn’t matter if you ask her lovingly or not that sort of questions, you still get the same replies. NO straight answers.

BUT with all these mind games how do you expect to build a good relationship and of course WHY WASTE TIME AND EFFORT to reach to the stage where you both can find happiness?

[groovlstk]

Wiz,

This goes back to something JB mentioned in another thead about how some Russian people define the word "clever." Such cleverness is admired in civil servants who think of creative ways to invent problems for people that only a bribe can resolve. The same cleverness is seen in elusive young women who pinch Western men for 5-star dinners, Prada handbags, etc., with the promise of sex or a relationship that exists only in the poor sucker's mind. It's unfortunate but a large enough sector of FSU society not only accepts this behavior but admires and envies those who are "clever" enough to pull it off, and therein lies the rub.

[jb]

Ah ha... groove,,, you at least understand the term "Being Clever".  It's a sad commentary, but nevertheless, quite true.

[Lily]

Generally I still agree with Anastasia that this is a woman thing. I don't think her being yes or no person was acuired in the West, I believe it was her personality long before that.

However, and that's why I suggested starting a thread about this issue, I can say something particular about a Russia-specific way of communicating. Due to ruling totalitarism, it belonged to a norm for people to think one thing, to say another thing, and to do some other thing. Therefore, perhaps it became at least an indirect reason of Russians getting used to a strange and complicated way of communication where many things are perceived while unsaid. We often can hear something like '..she did that and that.then he come..you know what she thought..you understand what was later?..sure I understand...'. In such communicative chain, at least some units are not said and are based on assumptions. Some women could adopt this style.

That was, however, an unconscious assumption based misunderstanding.

From you post I could think you mean that it is her intention to shift all responsibility for lack of love and whatever similar else to the man. That brings me to an idea of a patriarchal type of woman who is adamant to think that her man should be responsible for everything, including for her and her feelings, for her faults, as well as for anything else that surrounds her  . In order to remind to her man of his liability, the Russian woman may be ready to use all kind of verbal mind games. She is too shy to say it directly to him. She does not want to appear unfeminine by answering straightly. At the same time, she lacks some diplomacy and disputing skills in order to nicely wrap her answer.

Russian patriarchality belongs to national traditions. Do you guys wanted a traditional wife? Be ready for evasiveness and mind games.

Being yes or no person is close to being ready to assume some responsibility, to accept her fault, to say sorry. One needs some guts for it. Don't you see any features of an independent Western woman here?

[wiz]

Groov

I read that comment of JB and agree with you about the tactics used by these elusive women to benefit out of Western men, leading them up the garden path. The fact that most of the Russian society admires and envies those “clever” people is because of the poor standards in the life style of the majority of the population. Here we are not talking about that subject in my view.

In this thread we talk about human behaviour between two people, who are either just met, have long time relationship or are married, which of course I am aware that you know anyway.

You know I was an avid reader of your excellent travel reports and learned a lot from your observations and of course will never forget your famous quotes:

“I will never marry a woman who is not crazy about me!” also “To co-exist with a Russian woman you must have patience, I had rivers and Ocean of patience and still fell short”.

They both are imprinted in my mind and I have to say that I had much much more patience than you did and still fell short too!

Of course you were lucky to find a woman who is crazy about you where I was not!

I still have those deep feelings for her but her commitment is clear to me, will never be 100% and I have to recover and forget and follow your path, again.

[HiTech]

But there are some examples we all know that i can't help writing about. For example famous "And why did you decide to correspond with an American man? You can't find a man there, can you?..." where of course we reply "And why are YOU searching among Russian women? You can't find American girls there, can you?.."

Ridiculous, frustrating, rude, what's the point...

AnastassiaAsh: I am wondering if you also find this question objectionable, I agree the way you phrased the question , the question would be very rude.

"I am curious as to why you decide to correspond with an American man?"

Would it then also be rude or one you would answerer to you partner?

[wiz]

Generally I still agree with Anastasia that this is a woman thing. I don't think her being yes or no person was acuired in the West, I believe it was her personality long before that.

However, and that's why I suggested starting a thread about this issue, I can say something particular about a Russia-specific way of communicating. Due to ruling totalitarism, it belonged to a norm for people to think one thing, to say another thing, and to do some other thing. Therefore, perhaps it became at least an indirect reason of Russians getting used to a strange and complicated way of communication where many things are perceived while unsaid. We often can hear something like '..she did that and that.then he come..you know what she thought..you understand what was later?..sure I understand...'. In such communicative chain, at least some units are not said and are based on assumptions. Some women could adopt this style.

That was, however, an unconscious assumption based misunderstanding.

From you post I could think you mean that it is her intention to shift all responsibility for lack of love and whatever similar else to the man. That brings me to an idea of a patriarchal type of woman who is adamant to think that her man should be responsible for everything, including for her and her feelings, for her faults, as well as for anything else that surrounds her  . In order to remind to her man of his liability, the Russian woman may be ready to use all kind of verbal mind games. She is too shy to say it directly to him. She does not want to appear unfeminine by answering straightly. At the same time, she lacks some diplomacy and disputing skills in order to nicely wrap her answer.

Russian patriarchality belongs to national traditions. Do you guys wanted a traditional wife? Be ready for evasiveness and mind games.

Being yes or no person is close to being ready to assume some responsibility, to accept her fault, to say sorry. One needs some guts for it. Don't you see any features of an independent Western woman here?

Lily

That explains a lot about their behaviour and the transfer of responsibility to the man and is the first time hearing such honest views but I have to ask a simple question.

Why go to such an extend and mind games to not answer, when a simple YES or NO would be enough to explain the basic question of no feelings for you?

In my mind then it should be the case of ulterior motives which the woman is trying to hide and resorts to such games.

Evasiveness and mind games at the end will kill the joy of love, affection, happiness and a happy family and that is what we all strive for. The old system of the SU has killed all these feelings and love. Made its people to act like robots and a society without love, affection and public demonstration of that, will always remain unhappy

If she has the guts to play all those mind games and simply does not adjust to the western way of dealing with her relationship, accept responsibility for her actions and say sorry, demonstrate her feelings unreservedly, I see no future of a Western woman becoming reality.

Is this the REAL reasons why you have such a large number of single alone unhappy women, specially mature women with children?

[Daveman]

Lily

That explains a lot about their behaviour and the transfer of responsibility to the man and is the first time hearing such honest views but I have to ask a simple question.

Why go to such an extend and mind games to not answer, when a simple YES or NO would be enough to explain the basic question of no feelings for you?

In my mind then it should be the case of ulterior motives which the woman is trying to hide and resorts to such games.

Evasiveness and mind games at the end will kill the joy of love, affection, happiness and a happy family and that is what we all strive for. The old system of the SU has killed all these feelings and love. Made its people to act like robots and a society without love, affection and public demonstration of that, will always remain unhappy

If she has the guts to play all those mind games and simply does not adjust to the western way of dealing with her relationship, accept responsibility for her actions and say sorry, demonstrate her feelings unreservedly, I see no future of a Western woman becoming reality.

Is this the REAL reasons why you have such a large number of single alone unhappy women, specially mature women with children?

I doubt any woman who's not a GCG actually wants to become a Western woman. She simply wants to love and be loved, have a family, to be accepted exactly the way she is.  Of course, accepting her the "way she is" becomes OUR decision to choose yes or no.  It's not up to her to become what we want her to be.  It doesn't work that way.

We have very strange habits in the west as well, such as, not saying something directly to people, but speaking more loudly to one person when we know another person is listening so that this other person will actually hear and heed our words, sometimes leaving the person to whom we are directly speaking in a state of "what?".  Human behavior is the same, only the methodology and approach varies in actual practice.  We all play games, some are fun and some are not, some are overt and some are more subtle. 

I still think that if you ever have to ask a Russian woman if she cares for you... she doesn't.  When she does, it is very unmistakable and she'll wonder why a man is so stupid that he has to ask.  Who knows for sure? not me.

Dave

[WmGO]

While many perhaps most FSUW are the elusive no straight answer type there are many who are more like Anastassia and Lily....it is up to the WM to decide what he wants and does not want...........Caveat Emptor!

[wiz]

I still think that if you ever have to ask a Russian woman if she cares for you... she doesn't.  When she does, it is very unmistakable and she'll wonder why a man is so stupid that he has to ask.  Who knows for sure? not me.

No she doen't care and I agree with you.

In my past relationships it was as you said, unmistakable, so NO need to ask the silly question!

But then how would I know for sure either?

RW is new dating game, rules and actions and very difficult to follow and if you don't try you wil never know!

[jb]

Frankly I think neither of you know enough about RW,, or even "W", to comment here.

Go back to your corner and suck your thumbs a bit,,, enlightenment will come when you least expect it.

[Gator]

Lily and Anastasia,

Very revealing answers.  And very helpful not only to me but any man romancing RW.  Another example of a culture gap.

Much does depend upon the question and its context.  

Some questions are rhetorical and those answer themselves.  

Some questions, especially if the subject is sensitive, are more like a KGB interrogation.  And who are we to ask such a question to the people who invented interrogation!?  Of course no answer.

I will give a quick example of the latter.  It is true and involved my ex-fiancee.  

We had already met twice (once for a week and the second for two weeks) and I thought our relationship was developing.  I was new to RW and I was very busy reading all I could on the Internet.  One informative site (I forget the name as this was over 4 years ago) had some narratives of interest.  One link somehow opened me to Elena's Models (I suppose it was a form of hidden advertising and EM does have some basic info).

I clicked and started scanning.  Suddenly I saw a familiar face on the right under "Featured New Ladies".  My ex- is a beautiful woman and they had her face in a prominent spot.  I clicked and saw her profile, same words and photos as I saw months earlier at another agency when I purchased her address.

The next meeting I raised the subject and asked why is she still looking.  Her response (and everyone can see this one coming) - "Why are you looking at the dating agencies?"  

I explained my harmless reasons, and suddenly we are debating what I was doing and not what she had done.  After a few minutes I realized what had happened and said "Stop, how about my original question."

Clearly, she did not wish to answer because the truth would possibly hurt our relationship.  After some more dancing around the issue, she asked, "Should I remove my profile."  I said, "That would make me feel better."  She then asked, "Does that mean we are not to see other people?".......  So we became exclusive from that point (I already was, but had not discussed it).

She never answered my question about still looking.  She could have lied and said she has no idea of how she became listed at EMs (and this does happen among agencies).  However, she does not lie, and instead dodged the question.

I learned after that not to let her turn the tables when I had a question.  Not always accomplished.