RW will not answer a direct question.

[wiz]

Frankly I think neither of you know enough about RW,, or even "W", to comment here.

Go back to your corner and suck your thumbs a bit,,, enlightenment will come when you least expect it.

Would you care to enlighten us with your knowledge and wisdom about RW please?

I am a new boy at school so I am willing to learn and while you are at it please help me to understand also about "W" either!

[ScottinCrimea]

Some here are letting their bitterness override their ability to understand the situation and work with it.  Instead of trying to change your Russian woman, instead try to understand why she behaves as she dies.  The ladies here give some great comments to ponder.  I find that I get the most frustrated when I am expecting my wife to act like a AW, or, God forbid, me.  If she won't answer a direct question, don't ask one.  Learn to ask questions in a way that they are comfortable answering.  They are not really being elusive and playing mind games, they just have a different concept of the male/female relationship, and isn't that why we sought them out in the first place?  Of course it's frustrating when we are expected to make assumptions about what is not said and read minds.  If you look at it as a positive "game" instead of a negative one it's a lot easier to deal with.  To my wife's credit, she has worked to meet me somewhere in the middle.  Remember that we frustrate them just as much as they frustrate us.  I try as hard as I can to understand her as a person as well as look closely at her body language and expressions to figure out what is going unsaid or what she really wants me to say or do.  When I'm totally lost, I joke about mind reading, she laughs and rephrases the question or answer.  Sometimes, I think because of the language/cultural differences, I feel like I am being grilled unnecessarily about some even minor things.  Just one laughing comment about the KGB being in our house and she smiles and tries to be more careful in her phrasing.  The bottom line is that we love each other enough to try to understand the reasons for our differences and work with them, not try to change each other.

[wiz]

Some here are letting their bitterness override their ability to understand the situation and work with it.  Instead of trying to change your Russian woman, instead try to understand why she behaves as she does.  The ladies here give some great comments to ponder.  I find that I get the most frustrated when I am expecting my wife to act like a AW, or, God forbid, me.  If she won't answer a direct question, don't ask one.  Learn to ask questions in a way that they are comfortable answering.  They are not really being elusive and playing mind games, they just have a different concept of the male/female relationship, and isn't that why we sought them out in the first place?  Of course it's frustrating when we are expected to make assumptions about what is not said and read minds.  If you look at it as a positive "game" instead of a negative one it's a lot easier to deal with.  To my wife's credit, she has worked to meet me somewhere in the middle.  Remember that we frustrate them just as much as they frustrate us.  I try as hard as I can to understand her as a person as well as look closely at her body language and expressions to figure out what is going unsaid or what she really wants me to say or do.  When I'm totally lost, I joke about mind reading, she laughs and rephrases the question or answer.  Sometimes, I think because of the language/cultural differences, I feel like I am being grilled unnecessarily about some even minor things.  Just one laughing comment about the KGB being in our house and she smiles and tries to be more careful in her phrasing. The bottom line is that we love each other enough to try to understand the reasons for our differences and work with them, not try to change each other.

Scottin

I highlighted the most important thing you said in red, which overrides and give the answers to everything else you commented before.

With that in mind everything else I have highlighted becomes much easier to handle and work positively as you say. More importantly is your comment that your wife has willingly moved toward you to meet you somewhere in the middle and not stayed in her corner, that was a change in her part, like it or not, which means that your relationship is a two way traffic and not a one way street.

No there is no bitterness, disappointment yes, in my soul but the willingness to learn from past mistakes and try to understand better RW.

[AnastassiaAsh]

You, guys and ladies, are posting 50 posts a minute, it is hard to reply to everybody just for the lack of time, not because I don't know what to say.

Wiz, I really respect your opinion and most often than not mine coincides with yours, it is just I feel you are still wounded from that relationship and anger is letting through, very sorry for that, that's ok.

I understand we all had bad experiences and most of all DIFFERENT experiences. We all rely on them and then tend to generalize based on that. Maybe it is better not to, or we can generalize but still remember that there are exceptions out there and maybe, just maybe, that exception will be your future wife, and it will be even better for both of you.

I have said before I am not a typical Russian woman, so maybe my words can just add to the whole confusion... or maybe not.

I think Lily meant that not only Russian women are like that, but maybe women from other countries and cultures. Yes, it can be typical of Russian but not only. So Wiz and Lily are both right here.

When I was in Russia, Wiz, and Lily said it right, I was the same way, from the beginning, it is just my character very different from others. I absolutely hate mind games, silence treatments and everything that goes with that, that members here said. Based on my experience, lots of men took advantage of me in that sense, lots of men asked me those offensive questions…

Wiz, you are saying It is NEVER her fault for anything and is the man who done everything wrong! I so agree this happens very often, but again Wiz, I wanted just to say HELLO! There are exceptions, maybe 1 in 1000, or more, but there are. Here I am telling you that I am not like that, and I am sure there some true ladies out there who hate playing word/action games and there are some on this board i am sure. Maybe it takes 20 tries to get to the 21 and be happy. Your experience before meeting your beloved will be like you have it now, but after you will just be happy and know that No, it is pretty rare but they exist and I am blessed to have met Her…so nobody is really wrong, we are just at different stages..

Lily, you said:” Being yes or no person is close to being ready to assume some responsibility, to accept her fault, to say sorry. One needs some guts for it. Don't you see any features of an independent Western woman here?” – well, seems right, but then what about me and other RW here? I am independent and maybe yes in some ways already Western, fully integrated into this life here, very successful young woman, but again my roots are Russian, my values are typical of Russian women, I was raised on Russian literature…so it’s hard to put a stamp on such women who are here, married to AM and are successful.

HiTech – no, your question built that way would hurt me and other women too, nothing personal of course, but I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the question, it is HOW and WHEN to ask it. I would advise not to ask it at the beginning, I would advise to ask it in a year or two after the marriage. And there should be a big preamble to that.

For example: Dear, I wanted to ask you something. Please understand where I put the stress and on what things. I know that there are lots of Russian women who use foreigners to leave the country, their true intentions, that their marriages don’t last and all they dream about is the amount of money in their account. And I absolutely know that you are not like that, that you are an honest and open person and I really appreciate that. But what was really in the way for you to find the man of your dreams in Russia? What really made you look abroad? I would like to be closer to you and truly understand you and know what was in your heart when you decided to do that?

And so then I will see that he is concerned not to hurt me with his question but wants to know my personal reasons behind it, so I will first thank him for being nice about such a sticky question and then would give him a pretty long, serious answer.

Dave said: I still think that if you ever have to ask a Russian woman if she cares for you... she doesn't.  When she does, it is very unmistakable and she'll wonder why a man is so stupid that he has to ask.  Who knows for sure? not me.

Yes, very true. When a woman truly loves a man she will be giving him attention every day, from time to time letting him know without any words how much she loves him. And yes couples, both women and men, still sometimes ask each other ‘Do you love me?’ and most of them know the answer but ask it because they want to HEAR it again, and I would say “Ohhh, of course I do, dear, I love you so much, because you are….you did this and this…you are so…"….and we very often laugh about it. But you need a reminder, you need to hear it, you need to feel and see all aspects of it. I will never say What do you think? Why are you asking me such a st…question……


JB, you as always threw a little water into the fire, your words made me smile. Most men are made that way, they are not predisposed to read our minds (other than pretty obvious things), you need to teach them, talk to them and clarify things, and say yes or no SEVERAL times even, and show them how much you appreciate that they are trying their best to understand you, and give them lots of attention… but he has to be a very good student.

Gator, we all experienced the removing of your profile thing. With the game comes pain. I know it is hard but you have to try openly discuss these things with your lady, but there are people, both men and women, who will still do that behind your back, that is a red flag, I am glad it turned out good in your situation

[Gator]

Anastassia,

You are a welcome breath of fresh air. 

Thank you for joining this group and explaining the opinions and feelings of the type of RW we seek.

[wiz]

Anastasia

Thank you for your effort, time and wonderfull advise you give to us.

You clearly can take the place of the RWD Agony Aunt and I am sure many of us will listen to your advice.

I live in Uk between Heathrow and Gatwick airports since 1978.

Thank you again

wiz

[Mamma D]

 

Well..............Not only will both my grandson and daughter answer a direct question with a direct answer.... but they will look you in the eye! 

[I/O]

Well..............Not only will both my grandson and daughter answer a direct question with a direct answer.... but they will look you in the eye! 

Bingo...!!!!  Been waiting for it.  My fiance' doesn't dodge the question, ask her something and you'll get a very straight answer. Makes a whole helluva lot of sense to me.

I/O

[Jet]

Она чувствует подвох

I think this has some genuine merit. I also think it eludes to the more fundamental fear of Russians (men and women) to be blamed for having given a wrong answer. I have noticed that of the Russians I've personally met, most are deathly afraid of being told something is *their fault* whether it is or it's not. From that observation it's not too far a jump to see why they may be (as Kvinna stated) wary of someone posing a "trick" question. As Scott pointed out, if you don't like your current results - stop backing her into a corner (very wise advice)

[Lily]

I think this has some genuine merit. I also think it eludes to the more fundamental fear of Russians (men and women) to be blamed for having given a wrong answer. I have noticed that of the Russians I've personally met, most are deathly afraid of being told something is *their fault* whether it is or it's not. From that observation it's not too far a jump to see why they may be (as Kvinna stated) wary of someone posing a "trick" question. As Scott pointed out, if you don't like your current results - stop backing her into a corner (very wise advice)

Very good point IMO.

However Jet, could you please explain how did you understand the Kvinna's quote? what подвох did she meant, in your opinion?

[wiz]

I doubt any woman who's not a GCG actually wants to become a Western woman. She simply wants to love and be loved, have a family, to be accepted exactly the way she is.  Of course, accepting her the "way she is" becomes OUR decision to choose yes or no.  It's not up to her to become what we want her to be.  It doesn't work that way.

Well that is what I think too when we have to make the choice.

I don't know, but looking for a partner for life IMO it should be good, almost perfect from the first letter or meeting to the proposal.

I am sure there are such Russian women out there, who won't even have 90% of the problems that I have encountered.

[Jet]

Lily,
As I understand it "подвох" means "a dirty trick" or in american english "a trick question".
In essence, she feels that if she provides an answer it may be used against her in the future to make her look small, stupid, or to assign blame.

[Daveman]

Go back to your corner and suck your thumbs a bit,,, enlightenment will come when you least expect it.

Now this is funny whether intended as humor or not because jb always speaks from experience. This corner method must have some proven merit.

And yes couples, both women and men, still sometimes ask each other ‘Do you love me?’

Do you think this is more of a western romantic game?  I remember a conversation between some Ukrainian ladies where they were speaking about how silly/stupid it is for American guys to ask this question.  As far as I could gather, they don't play this kind of game about 'love' and it seemed they were also saying that it is some kind of 'bad luck' to ask.   As for my own relationships, of course American ladies have asked me this wanting to hear the romantic response, but not an FSU lady.  Their 'romantic questions' were more along the lines of "Are you mine?" or "are you my (whatever she dreamed up at the time... katenok, porosenok, tigernok, tsarevich)", or to call me her 'little something', or simply state sometimes that she loves me, but never a question or discussion about 'love' itself.

As for the 'being clever' mentality.  I just haven't seen that at all.  Surely it must exist, but I guess I've been very lucky to avoid it.  None of the ladies I've met have been that way, at least not to me.  I also haven't really seen much evasion or word twisting - certainly not to the extent described in this thread, or anything of a true nefarious nature.  The Ukrainian ladies were evasive sometimes (I think Jet's comments describe this.. perhaps afraid of giving a 'wrong' answer, so bounce things around until I made some kind of decision), but the Siberian girl pretty much says exactly what's on her mind 99% of the time, with the other 1% probably being a result of a language problem where we simply can't continue a conversation further.  This could be a problem that will spring to life as she becomes more adept in English, and I in Russian, but it doesn't seem likely. Yeah, I probably don't have enough experience to really add much to this thread, but it had stalled without responses, so I took a shot at it.

I don't know, but looking for a partner for life IMO it should be good, almost perfect from the first letter or meeting to the proposal.

Perfection is probably an elusive dream as there are usually bumps in the road, but I think we get gut feelings which if not ignored will tell us exactly when it's time to get away and move on.

Dave

 

[HiTech]

HiTech  – no, your question built that way would hurt me and other women too, nothing personal of course, but I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the question, it is HOW and WHEN to ask it. I would advise not to ask it at the beginning, I would advise to ask it in a year or two after the marriage. And there should be a big preamble to that.

For example: Dear, I wanted to ask you something. Please understand where I put the stress and on what things. I know that there are lots of Russian women who use foreigners to leave the country, their true intentions, that their marriages don’t last and all they dream about is the amount of money in their account. And I absolutely know that you are not like that, that you are an honest and open person and I really appreciate that. But what was really in the way for you to find the man of your dreams in Russia? What really made you look abroad? I would like to be closer to you and truly understand you and know what was in your heart when you decided to do that?

And so then I will see that he is concerned not to hurt me with his question but wants to know my personal reasons behind it, so I will first thank him for being nice about such a sticky question and then would give him a pretty long, serious answer.

Anastasia:
Thank you very much for your response.
What I am now wondering is where the thought disconnect occurs. In my view if I asked the question as I stated it, all of your preface to your question is assumed by me.
In other words I would assume that my lady knows I trust her and have no doubt that she was not motivated by the finical aspect of finding an American man.

Do to how you stated your version of the question, it seems to me you read much more into the question than is there in the mind of an WM. It apears to me that asking the question some how implies miss trust of you, and hence why you would be hurt with the question.

If you ask most men on this board why they are looking for an FSU lady they can very clearly state why. And if asked by their lady I do not believe most would take any offense at all.

If I were to ask this question, my only motivation would be to get to know my ladies history and thoughts better, but some how I see RW read more into this and other questions that is not in the mind of a WM when asked.

Your thoughts?

[AnastassiaAsh]

HiTech, (I like that name  )

That’s the problem of lots of men here, they sometimes like to ‘assume’ (guys, don’t make that joke, please). When you correspond with a RW, she doesn’t know you and can’t tell what you assume and that you have good intentions. And if you are asking me personally, even later in the relationship, even if you both know you love each other and there is no other motive, STILL I would want my husband to ask this question in this way or similar.

I just wrote about this particular question because I think 99% of men ask them and almost in their first letters to ladies, this is my experience. I am sure some don’t or do only later. But I just wanted to warn everybody on any stage of their relationship, believe me.

Yes, the question as you asked it, just one sentence, implies mistrust, because there is nothing else, there is a cloud before it and after it. But if you ask it as I did it is all much more clear, thus less conflict and hurt. Maybe some ladies here won’t take any offense but it seems to me they will still kind of wonder a little bit after that and Why did he ask me that?

Also it is different when you ask people on this board from asking it a lady from a little town God knows where who doesn’t know that such websites even exist where men can share.

The ultimate reason for my posts, is for you, dear men, to make less mistakes as possible, or be good about it, that’s all. Those who are already doing things right, great for them, proud of them. Just for the future…

You see, I am sure about your motivation, but you have to TELL HER about that first, using your own WORDS and not be silent about it and hope that they will understand. Some will and some won’t.

And mind you, I am a woman with a thicker skin so to speak than other women. I don’t think I need to make an example of a ‘bad’ answer to your question with good intentions…When a guy sends out his intro letter to 100 women and gets only 3 replies, it is time to maybe look at your letter with HER eyes one more time and just reword a little bit the same ideas in a more sensetive way. Lots of women probably are on thier 2nd or 3d attempt, if not more, and it gets very emotional...as well as with all the guys on this side of the process, I know.

These are my thoughts…really appreciate you are trying to understand all this.

[ScottinCrimea]

You just have to understand the difference between how men's and women's minds work.  If you ask a man, "What day of the week is it?", He will answer, "Thursday."  If you ask a woman the same question, her mind will start working.  "Why is he asking me that question?"  "Is there a trick?"  "Does he think I'm so stupid that I don't know what day of the week it is?"  "Is he so stupid that he doesn't know what day of the week it is?"  "Has he been drinking too much and can't remember what day it is?"  "Does he have some plans to meet another woman today?"  "I remember that one Thursday 5 years ago when he did such and such...I'll never forgive him for that."   and on and on and on....

So because she can't figure out all of these possibilities for why you are asking the question, she doesn't know how to answer, so instead she smiles and says, "Why do you ask?"

[groovlstk]

Yes, the question as you asked it, just one sentence, implies mistrust, because there is nothing else, there is a cloud before it and after it. But if you ask it as I did it is all much more clear, thus less conflict and hurt. Maybe some ladies here won’t take any offense but it seems to me they will still kind of wonder a little bit after that and Why did he ask me that?

Not only is this question potentially offensive, but the very people it's intended to weed out (green card girls or those desperate to escape difficult living conditions) are simply going to tell you exactly what you want to hear. In either case you don't get much of what you intended from it.

[Jumper]

Lily stated

,
Being yes or no person is close to being ready to assume some responsibility, to accept her fault, to say sorry. One needs some guts for it. Don't you see any features of an independent Western woman here?

absolutely !
 
and the most refreshing thing when i met my wife was just how very direct she was ,, a very /yes/no person.
ask a direct question, without fail get a direct answer.
also if she wanted to know something,
 she asked very directly also,
not some around about way.
unless simply to be tactful to allow you to "save face" in front of guests, or a weird situation.

now if you asked a silly question, get a direct answer of ,
thats a silly question !!
and a reason why it was silly..LOL

refreshing,
and yes perhaps very independent.
and honestly very appealing qualities to me,
 as that is always my "type" ,or rather, a good match for me.

is this typical of as RW? i really have no idea..
there are all types of people and personalities in every culture and nationality?

doesn't all of this just emphasize  the importance of really KNOWING who you are involved with, and plan to marry?
and match up with a correct person for you, and you for,them?

*shrugs*


I saw some very good points in this thread..
jet/kvinna/anna/lily..

i agree about the type of question...
as some are simply silly, and would often be dismissed as such.
with no direct answer ,
and the way the question is asked, both in words and in tone..
as it could be taken as rude or "tricky"

the nature of cross cultural relationships makes this even more diffucult to navigate?
 as
"how" something is said, is often more important than "what" is actually said!

and the "how" it is said is very open to interpretation without complete ad very deep fluency?

it is why i have often harped on guys ,
to at least learn some rudimentary Russian.


will you become fluent? no and that isnt the point.

but some understanding of the language strucxture.wil lhelp greatly ij understanding "how" a sentence in english is "viewed" in the rmid of someone speaking Russian as a first language.

there are subtle things ,that can be picked up on,
 even with a very basic understanding of russian..words and grammer.
it will help you understand a russian speaker in both Russian, of course
and in thier use of english.
it wil lalso help yo uuse english that translates more accurateltty to a Russian speaker, of what you really wanted to convey.

(yes this is assuming that they ar enot completely fluent in English, which many are,but masny that western  men meet are not)
 

also, (and i'll let sandro take off with this..   )
i do think a persons fundamental first  language ,
effects how they think..how thoughts are formed, and phrased,
 and how they see the world because of it..
This doesnt mean  in  a good or bad way ,,
just in a different way.

[Wild Orchid*]

Она чувствует подвох

Да, ее восприятие мира настолько отравлено Антидейтом, что она чувствует подвох даже в таких безобидных вопросах как Расскажите подробнее о своей работе? Чем занимаетесь в свободное врфемя и т.д.  некоторым дамам просто не нужно тратиь время на корреспонденцию с WM. Вот вы Квинна, зачем это делаете? Вам же они ну нафиг не нужны...

[Lily]

Wild Orchid,

Excuse me but I find this post of you rude.

The rude emotionality is obvious from choice of words. Further, you attack Kvinna with no particular reason to attack. As a moderator I don't find it to be right in the forum.

Could you please in the future be so kind to watch your writings and write decently.

Looking forward to reading other interesting posts of you Wild Orchid.

Sincerely

[Wild Orchid*]

Wild Orchid,

Excuse me but I find this post of you rude.

You are excused, and I don’t share your opinion about rudeness  of my post. I’m entitled to my opinion about this particular woman and I am happy to share it with the board, at least with Russian speaking part of it.

 You are entitled to your opinion about kvinna, that does not give you a free pass to go around picking fights with her or any other member.

[Mod5]

I hope the mamagement will see that is not welcome and ban her.

What management sees is:
Kvinna answered the original question in Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 09:26:24 AM
Wild Orchid decided to pick a fight by insulting Kvinna in her Reply #43 on: April 27, 2007 at 10:22:25 PM
and when Kvinna defended herself in Reply #51 on: Today at 06:23:02 AM
You decided to jump on the band wagon.

NOTE TO ALL CONTRIBUTERS TO THIS THREAD
The next member I see posting personal insults goes directly into moderated status without further notification

[Wild Orchid*]

Да, ее восприятие мира настолько отравлено Антидейтом, что она чувствует подвох даже в таких безобидных вопросах как Расскажите подробнее о своей работе? Чем занимаетесь в свободное врфемя и т.д.  некоторым дамам просто не нужно тратиь время на корреспонденцию с WM. Вот вы Квинна, зачем это делаете? Вам же они ну нафиг не нужны...

Dear SuperMod. have you read this post of mine myslef? What exactly is rude in it?
I am sure that Kvinna is not involved in corressponding with any men and her involment in all of this is purely business like. Even if I'm wrong about it why can't I say that? Where is rudeness?

[KenC]

What management sees is:
Kvinna answered the original question in Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 09:26:24 AM
Wild Orchid decided to pick a fight by insulting Kvinna in her Reply #43 on: April 27, 2007 at 10:22:25 PM
and when Kvinna defended herself in Reply #51 on: Today at 06:23:02 AM
You decided to jump on the band wagon.

NOTE TO ALL CONTRIBUTERS TO THIS THREAD
The next member I see posting personal insults goes directly into moderated status without further notification

How about a translation for the rest of us?
KenC

[LEGAL]

Absolutely agree with Wild Orchid. There is not any rudeness in her post especially in comparison with some posts of Kvinna.

Olga.