RW with Children

[Turkey]

I was wondering if anyone knows a RW with children who married a WM and how they dealt with the children's biological father? 

When a RW with children marries a WM, does the biological father have any rights for joint custody, visitation privledges or can he prevent the child from moving to the west?

[Gator]

Good question.  The RW are asleep.  So I will share my experience.

The biological father has rights, yet many of these RW listed with marriage agencies will state that the father has no relationship with his child, does not want a relationship, and does not provide any financial support.   Some of these RM are similar to our infamous deadbeat dads, except unlike America there is no law in Russia compelling them to help.

The US government, in granting a fiancée visa, requires that the father provide his notarized permission for any children to leave the FSU.   This has created some problems with some of the married RWD men, and perhaps they can share their experience.  For a father not wanting a relationship with his child, I assume a little money will encourage him to sign the permission document.

Permission is not required if the mother has a court document granting her sole custody.  This was the case with my ex-fiancee.  It was our only avenue considering that all contact had been lost with the father and he is presumed dead.  He was a hustler, and perhaps got too clever with the wrong people and is pushing up mushrooms and daisies in a remote pine forest. 

It took almost $1000 in legal fees and about a year of going through the courts to obtain the official document.  Most of this time was spent waiting for various organizations to declare that they had no records of the man’s whereabouts.  Soviet style bureaucracy.  I say Soviet because little has changed.  It was perhaps the same before Soviet days.  If you want to see something archaic, just go to some of these warehouse where records are kept.

Also, I know that some women received the sole custody document as part of their divorce.

[macman]

The RW are asleep.  So I will share my experience.

Too funny Gator!  But great question Turk - and I appreciate the answer, it pertains to me.

BTW Gator, I've got a question for you - I'll PM ya.

mm

[wxman]

I have been dealing with this issue for the last few years. Every case in different. In my case, the ex does pay child support, but has nothing to do with his child. He has refused to sign any waiver, and wants no money. In his case it's about control. He refuses to see his daughter, spend time with her, etc. But in the eyes of that law, as long as he pays support he has equal say, whether he has anything to do with the child or not. When she turns 16 she will not need permission, and that is how we will solve this issue.

[Sohkay]

wxman,
What is the daughter's age now?

[wxman]

She is 13. Actually waiting until she is 16 is one option. The other is retiring early and moving there. My fiancee and I have discussed both options in length and neither one is a quick fix. On the bright side it has brought us much closer, and we are tackling this issue together. We both know we are committed to each other and no one can say we are rushing into this marriage.     

[Sohkay]

wxman,
Maybe what the two of you could do is try again in a few months and hope that maybe he has a change of heart. It also may be possible for the two of you come up with other approaches and strategies to solve this problem, for instance, thinking in terms of what might motivate him to issue the parental consent document. I wish you the best of luck with this difficult situation. Just remember, things usually work out for the best.

[wxman]

Sohkay,

We have tried a few times to talk to him. Everytime my fiancee leaves crying. I am not going to put her through that again. The part that bothers me is that he refuses to have anything to do with his daughter, even though my fiancee on several occasions has asked him to at least wish her a happy birthday or Merry Christmas. We have all accepted the fact that he will not change, and that our love and dedication to each other will in the end be a success. Some roads have bumps and detours, but in the end, one arrives at their destination. 

[BillyB]

wxman, could you possibly start your paperwork months before your lady's daughter turns 16 to speed things up?

Here's a few stories I heard from guys in your situation that got the lady's ex to sign the paperwork allowing the child to move to America.

1) Have a heart to heart talk with the child's dad.

2) Offer money.

3) Threaten to hire the police to cause trouble or violence for the guy. Everybody in the FSU is afraid of the cops.

[Gator]

BillyB,

Your Number 3 is a viable option.  However, did you not just criticize the FSU cops for taking bribes?  However, when one needs them to do a dirty deed, even those with a white hat will bribe them.  That is how corruption stays embedded.  It is a way of life.  And I would probably also consider number 3. 

By the way, what does it cost to have a man's jaw broken and wired in Ukraine?  Probably less than it takes to guard you from the brothers of the man with the wired jaw.

[BillyB]

Your Number 3 is a viable option.  However, did you not just criticize the FSU cops for taking bribes? 

That is correct Gator. But these are not my recommendations, just merely stories I've heard from other guys.

In the situation to be with the woman you love, bribery would be tempting but at most, I would only threaten the man to go to the police to make his life hell, not actually do it. I would only threaten this if the man didn't love his child, was clearly a bad guy and causing trouble.

Wxman, are you certain the father of your lady's child doesn't love his child or are you merely relying on what your woman is telling you? After all, he pays child support. What additional rights does he possess over a man who does not pay child support?

According to my ex, I'm a bad father but I spent tens of thousands of dollars to be a de facto parent to a child that she had with her previous husband. I was the only father the boy knew and the ex brainwashed him while I had no rights to see him. Luckily the family court counselors found there was a healthy bond between us and the fact he looked at me as his father and reunited us. Now I have regular visitation rights with him.

Two reasons I didn't look for a woman with young children. One is to avoid a situation that you're in Wxman and I do not want to marry a woman with a child, then bond with the child, divorce and fight for the right to see the child.

Also there are FSU men who love their children dearly and won't sign release papers because they want their children near throughout their childhood. It's not good if you want to take a child away from the mother or who loves them or father who loves them.

As far as how much it cost to have a man's jaw broken and wired, I suggest shop around and compare. Get a number of estimates from cops. They're probably cheaper than the mafia and the law is on their side. Make sure you get good service for your dollar before committing.

[William3rd]

Pardon my ignorance- but, what difference does the age of 16 make in the land of foreign romance?

[wxman]

Wxman, are you certain the father of your lady's child doesn't love his child or are you merely relying on what your woman is telling you? After all, he pays child support. What additional rights does he possess over a man who does not pay child support?

I have talked to this person twice. I have tried to reason with him and actually suggested to him to be part of his daughter's life. He told me flat out, all he is responsible to do is make support payments. To him it is about power. He wants no money. He knows nothing can proceeed forward without his approval. He knows that at the age of 16 his daughter will not need a notarized waiver by either the US government or the Ukrainian government to leave. Deep down he does not want his ex wife to be happy, and he is using his daughter as a way to stall that for 3 years. We have talked to lawyers over in Ukraine, and they told us, in the eyes of the court he will have equal say because he makes child support payments.  They were more than willing to take our money and pursue it, but they were honest and told me that they would not be successful. He has failed on all counts in making is ex wife unhappy or hurting his daughter. I have something he will never have with his daughter. She and I are very close and she considers me a father figure.

[Rvrwind]

Pardon my ignorance- but, what difference does the age of 16 make in the land of foreign romance?

The child becomes an adult & gets their own passport etc. & no longer needs the fathers permission to leave or stay. In other words he will no longer be in control!!

[Lily]

Definitely some legal research needed.

Please note that family law is not my speciality. My findings are for general information only, this is not a legal advice. Kindly consult a lawyer for your particular cases.

Quote Art 55, part 1 item 2 of Russian Family Code  – In case of the parents living apart from each other, the child is entitled to communication to each parent. Similarly, a child is entitled to communicate to each parent also in case the parents live in different states.

The Code herewith emphasize that immigration of a parent should not impact communication between children and parents.  The right protected by law is herewith an unhindered communication between child and both parents.

Every case one parent takes a child for living abroad, the communication rights of the other parent remaining in another country may be deemed as violated.  Therefore, it is a parent’s duty to ensure communication. The other parent should not be ignored.

At the same time, the law does not detail what particular kinds of interaction – like personal meetings, letters, phone calls, webcam meetings - are sufficient communications. Apparently it can be decided on case by case basis.

Hence, a remaining parent may probably sometimes find some reasons to claim his being deprived of communication with his immigrant child.

Probably a good protection tool for an immigrant mother would be to have a written agreement with her ex stating what means of communication with the child shall be deemed sufficient and satisfaction.

This is statutory only. Still looking for some Russian court precedents on the issue..

[wxman]

Lily,

Thanks for your advice. Ukrainian law is still tilted more in favor of the man than of the woman when it comes to custody cases, etc. Her ex now lives in Moscow and is making a good living and with a new family. The meager sum he is required to send for child support is nothing to him and he knows as long as he makes the support payment, he has a say in whether or not his daughter can leave Ukraine. We specifically spoke to lawyers who deal with child custody cases and they all told us that they would likely not be successful.     

[BC]

wx,

Do pay particular attention to the child involved.  It is quite possible, maybe even unavoidable that the child may think she is at fault.  Might be worth talking to a professional on your end about possible effects and acquire some good tips how to best handle this aspect.

Yes, a real sticky issue for sure.. am impressed though with your dedication to face this challenge as a family.

I don't think a broken jaw will fix this.  Maybe getting married in RU and settling in there for a bit would show the ex how futile his attempts at control are, and *maybe* provide additional ammo for future attempts in court.  Also a great opportunity for all of you to pick up the languages and get a head start as a true family.  Another avenue is to find someone that has contact with his current wife and can possibly try to subtly influence things from that side. 

Good luck.

[Lily]

Lily,

Thanks for your advice. Ukrainian law is still tilted more in favor of the man than of the woman when it comes to custody cases, etc.    

This is information not advice.

Russian law is not based on court precedents, they may only be a guidance. A lot would depend on particularities, on personalities, etc.

[Mir]

Threaten to hire the police to cause trouble or violence for the guy. Everybody in the FSU is afraid of the cops.

As far as how much it cost to have a man's jaw broken and wired, I suggest shop around and compare. Get a number of estimates from cops. They're probably cheaper than the mafia and the law is on their side. Make sure you get good service for your dollar before committing.

So funny,I hope no one takes it seriously. Do read 'A mater of death and life' by Andrey Kurkov (writer from Kiev)

[ScottinCrimea]

Wx, You've run into a real landmine that men need to be aware of when dating an FSU woman with a child.  I think normally the ex can be bought off, especially if he no longer has a good relationship with his child, but there are enough like in your situation that it needs to be considered and discussed fairly early on.  I was fortunate because my wife's ex died about three years after she divorced him.  I still haven't had the nerve to ask her if she had any part in it.  

[Gator]

Wxman,

You partly answered Wm III's question about the age 16.  So she can leave Ukraine at age 16.  Will the US allow her to enter without having reached 18 (or is it 21)?

The US adamantly recognizes the right of both parents.  Remember Elian Gonzalez?

Having wrestled with a situation not as difficult as yours, you have my sympathy.

Is it possible to marry your woman and adopt her daughter?   Is your daughter's photo in your woman's passport?  That was enough in my case to allow the mother-child to travel together and exit passport control.  That still does not allow her immigration to the USA, so you would need to bring her in illegally and that opens a huge can of worms.

Love conquers all.

[BC]

Gator,

Even if adoption were possible (we tried in RU.. just too much hassle + time) it would likely have no effect.. 

IIRC only adopted orphans are granted US Citizenship.

Of course I may be wrong but it makes sense... I could envision a slew of men 'adopting' their young fiancee's if it made the process quicker...

[Gator]

 I could envision a slew of men 'adopting' their young fiancee's if it made the process quicker...

Many RW are young enough to qualify (some even as grandchildren).

[macman]

Gator,

Think of the legal implications if there were divorces in these marriages. . . Send Child support check to Russia???

mm

[catzenmouse]

wxman,

 A regrettable situation to be in. All I can suggest is to keep hammering away at the ex. Maybe even begin the legal process. He may find the hassle of it not worth his time and consent to signing the paper.

 That was how it worked for us. At first the ex refused to sign anything (he was paying his 3 rubles a month (what the hell can you buy for a child with that? Simply pathetic!)) so Elena started the custody proceedings and after 2 or 3 court dates he did a 180 and signed the paper.

 One thing that I was thinking of doing (but was glad I did not have to) was to get a fake paper signed and notarized (or whatever they call it there) using the good old "enough money can buy you anything approach. Elena shot down my idea about having a couple of crazy Ivan's having a "chat" with him. 

Ken