Women

[Trenchcoat]

This article kind of sums of the situation with women today I feel:

http://www.standard.co.uk/insider/dating-app-marriages-divorce-more-likely-lucy-holden-b964545.html

Basically the girls in the west all look on dating apps and online dating for guys who are wealthy, good social status jobs. The reality is that the guys on there don't have that wealth nor good social status jobs, they are 'mediocre' as such apparently so they lie and exaggerate. They carefully curate profile to make themselves appeal to these girls that want wealthy guys with good jobs. The guys that don't do that as we see from the article don't interest the girls so they don't get any likes.

So the guys make out there something they are not to get a girl which of course can only be a short term thing when they come to realise that the girl will find out they are not wealthy nor good social status job if the relationship continues with her. If they tell her the truth the relationship is over anyway. So they have no choice other than to move on at which point the girl complains that she has been used for sex and that you can only get guys of there that want sex. But they keep on using these apps and online dating in the hope of landing a guy that will stick with them who is wealthy and has a good social status job.

I think the same can be true of dating in the FSU, it attracts what women there describe as Sex Tourists, basically guys that are there for sex. Yeah for sure they go there wanting sex with a girl but they also know that it's a lot easier to make out to a girl that they are wealthy. Women out there assume that all guys visiting are wealthy, their mere presence of being there means they are wealthy and of course they think that everyone from a western country is wealthy lol.

So it really creates a catch 22 situation where a guy has to make out he is wealthy and good social status to get the girl while the girl is only interested in guys who she assumes are telling the truth as what she is given is all she has to go on, but in reality a long term relationship can't happen as it's all built on a pile of sticks and sooner or later it's doomed to come crashing down.

[John Gaunt]

Trench

Put the apps away. Stop searching online.
Go out to the supermarket, chat up the cashier. Talk to the girl at the bus stop, hit the pubs and strike up conversations with women.
Learn the art of socialising and flirting.
It’s under these conditions that you are more likely to meet any future Mrs Trench, not by hiding away behind a screen and endlessly debating the demerits of online dating.

You’ve been on here how many years now?
Before you know it you’ll be a 50 something with no woman in your life and even more bitter and twisted than you already are.

Don’t read online drivel about how to find women, they are all around you. Get out and engage with them.
You might be surprised.

P. S. Starting another topic isn’t going to help you one jot.

[ML]

So it really creates a catch 22 situation where a guy has to make out he is wealthy and good social status to get the girl while the girl is only interested in guys who she assumes are telling the truth as what she is given is all she has to go on, but in reality a long term relationship can't happen as it's all built on a pile of sticks and sooner or later it's doomed to come crashing down.

I didn't really experience this in my contacts/visits with hundreds of FSU gals.

If anything, I underplayed my wealth and was quite frugal while visiting with gals there, especially with regard to the apartments I stayed in, took trams, metro, mini buses instead of taxis, and the way I dressed.

Now this was relative to my WMVM trips for first meetings.

Later when I met with some of them on trips to Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt, Crimea, etc., they knew I could at least afford such . . . but still never even came close to knowing my total wealth.  And interestingly, none ever came close to inquiring about my total wealth or even my earnings.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench

Put the apps away. Stop searching online.
Go out to the supermarket, chat up the cashier. Talk to the girl at the bus stop, hit the pubs and strike up conversations with women.
Learn the art of socialising and flirting.
It’s under these conditions that you are more likely to meet any future Mrs Trench, not by hiding away behind a screen and endlessly debating the demerits of online dating.

You’ve been on here how many years now?
Before you know it you’ll be a 50 something with no woman in your life and even more bitter and twisted than you already are.

Don’t read online drivel about how to find women, they are all around you. Get out and engage with them.
You might be surprised.

P. S. Starting another topic isn’t going to help you one jot.

That's not necessarily a bad idea on the face of it. However, it's back to the same old not knowing if the girl is single till you really get to know her a bit plus the girl being interested and seeing you as a good enough catch. Though to be fair there isn't likely a perfect way so just going and chatting to girls just to find out about them and see if they take isn't a bad idea. I do remember the dating world before online dating though when I was in my twenties and there was a lit of the girls with the, "My boyfriend..." stuff that could regularly be heard so finding a single available girl was still a pretty difficult task. The real odd girls, fat girls, etc well hey were always free for the reason that spoke for itself lol.

[Trenchcoat]

I didn't really experience this in my contacts/visits with hundreds of FSU gals.

If anything, I underplayed my wealth and was quite frugal while visiting with gals there, especially with regard to the apartments I stayed in, took trams, metro, mini buses instead of taxis, and the way I dressed.

Now this was relative to my WMVM trips for first meetings.

Later when I met with some of them on trips to Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt, Crimea, etc., they knew I could at least afford such . . . but still never even came close to knowing my total wealth.  And interestingly, none ever came close to inquiring about my total wealth or even my earnings.

You wouldn't like FSU dating today ML lol. I'm thinking you met Soviet Era ladies or at the latest girls who were brought up in the nineties where the Soviet culture and attitudes has still rolled over a little. The younger girls are nearly all pretty materialistic, they will ask for cabs, expect you to dress well, etc. Possibly a girl in her mid to late thirties or early forties today might not be too materialistic but below mid thirties most will be unless they are a bit ugly looking. I kind of notice the cut off line in this as the girls near my age are about the time when the Soviet Union finished. I would say around 39-40 ish at this present moment in time is about around the divide line for most women.

[Boethius]

You wouldn't like FSU dating today ML lol. I'm thinking you met Soviet Era ladies or at the latest girls who were brought up in the nineties where the Soviet culture and attitudes has still rolled over a little. The younger girls are nearly all pretty materialistic

Don't make statements when you know NOTHING about Soviet culture.  Or the culture of post Soviet states, for that matter.


Incidentally, you are wrong.

[Davo]

Trench, it doesn’t matter where a woman grew up or what era....some are materialistic and some aren’t..... Some have the same love languages, some don’t..... Generally most women have a good heart and just want to be loved unconditionally by a man they can be proud of and can provide consistency and stability in a relationship..... that includes financial stability.

I haven’t been on here as much as I used to be..... I gained a lot of experience here and some members have become life long friends.....Because there’s a lack of new comers here who are at the same stage as me, I’ve moved away and met men primarily on Facebook relationship sites, who are at this stage..... Approximately 9 over the past 2 years who were serious and not delusional (I’ve met a few of them too)..... Their ages range from early 30’s to late 50’s.

Most knew what they were doing and some were being scammed by PPL and email scammers. ATM there’s 6 men I’m regularly in contact with.....2 are now engaged and the other four are successfully meeting and  dating FSU women......When I look at these men they all now share a common path and traits.

First they are all financially stable. Some earn an average wage and some above average. All know the importance of not showing excessive wealth, yet women are still attracted to them.

The don’t have big hang ups about western women, or women in general..... They know you can meet both good and bad women in any dating pool.

They have realistic expectations. Sure they want to find a woman they are physically attracted to,  but they aren’t pursuing instagram models half their age.

They know their stuff...... The guys who come into this via scammers listened to the more experienced and quickly adopted the successful strategies.

They all now experts at identifying scammers now. They put their checks in place early.....They walk away at the slightest red flag. As a group we’ve identified 100’s..... The younger guys meeting younger women have experienced the most online.

Some are going wovo and some wmvm..... All are using the legitimate sites and use video chat as their main scam check and method of getting to know the women on a more intimate level..... I know you shy away from this, but it’s the most important tool in a mans arsenal to choose which women to meet.

One was lucky enough to meet a great woman on his first trip and got engaged on his third, but they realize this is a numbers game, just like western dating is..... You’ve had a short relationship with one FSU woman, you might have to meet another 100 before you meet the right one for you.

They don’t spend the majority of their time taking about it..... They get on a plane and do it.... Even during covid combined, they have made almost 20 trips.

They put lust aside and critically contemplate the women they are visiting and walk away if they see personality traits that they can’t live with.... Interestingly, no women have been materialistic and their age range has been from 31 to 53. It’s been baggage from the womans past relationships and marriages that have generally caused problems..... Trust, jealousy etc...

Trench, the only path you should be taking now is the one I described above. It works incredibly well..... with time and a level head most men find what they are looking for and generally the women they meet aren’t materialistic, they are just normal women looking for the right man to love. Meeting women is the easy part... Once you’re found a good one, keeping the relationship going when you’re apart is a hell of a lot more difficult.

The reason people are harsh with you is because you haven’t had any relationship experience at home and basically no experience with FSU women too..... Your posts are like telling a mechanic his engine needs rebuilding, after reading a basic automotive book, but haven’t picked up a spanner in your life. You read the theory, but obviously didn’t understand it when you can’t even find where the oil filter is under the bonnet.....If you want to be taken seriously as a mechanic, you need to get your hands greasy and pull apart 50 engines and learn each of their specific intricacies...... Only then you’ll see that although all engines typically function the same, some are high maintenance and expensive and others need only a little attention and will happily run for a half a million km’s.

[Jumper1]

You wouldn't like FSU dating today ML lol. I'm thinking you met Soviet Era ladies or at the latest girls who were brought up in the nineties where the Soviet culture and attitudes has still rolled over a little. The younger girls are nearly all pretty materialistic, they will ask for cabs, expect you to dress well, etc. Possibly a girl in her mid to late thirties or early forties today might not be too materialistic but below mid thirties most will be unless they are a bit ugly looking. I kind of notice the cut off line in this as the girls near my age are about the time when the Soviet Union finished. I would say around 39-40 ish at this present moment in time is about around the divide line for most women.

My wife's extremely frugal.to the point of maddening, and hasn't amaterialistic tendencies yiu speak of🤷‍♂️

[John Gaunt]

That's not necessarily a bad idea on the face of it. However, it's back to the same old not knowing if the girl is single till you really get to know her a bit plus the girl being interested and seeing you as a good enough catch. Though to be fair there isn't likely a perfect way so just going and chatting to girls just to find out about them and see if they take isn't a bad idea. I do remember the dating world before online dating though when I was in my twenties and there was a lit of the girls with the, "My boyfriend..." stuff that could regularly be heard so finding a single available girl was still a pretty difficult task. The real odd girls, fat girls, etc well hey were always free for the reason that spoke for itself lol.

Trench, just stop.
You’re back to making excuses.
The only obstacle to you dating is yourself.
You’re not ready for dating or relationships until you fix yourself and for that you need professional help.
Find a reputable shrink who specialises in psychosexual issues and deal with your problems first.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, just stop.
You’re back to making excuses.
The only obstacle to you dating is yourself.
You’re not ready for dating or relationships until you fix yourself and for that you need professional help.
Find a reputable shrink who specialises in psychosexual issues and deal with your problems first.

They cost too much Gaunty you'll have to do instead

[John Gaunt]

They cost too much Gaunty you'll have to do instead

Whaaat? You mean you can’t freeload on the NHS?

[2tallbill]

This article kind of sums of the situation with women today I feel:

http://www.standard.co.uk/insider/dating-app-marriages-divorce-more-likely-lucy-holden-b964545.html

Basically the girls in the west all look on dating apps and online dating for guys who are wealthy, good social status jobs. The reality is that the guys on there don't have that wealth nor good social status jobs, they are 'mediocre' as such apparently so they lie and exaggerate. They carefully curate profile to make themselves appeal to these girls that want wealthy guys with good jobs. The guys that don't do that as we see from the article don't interest the girls so they don't get any likes.

Tell me why do some penniless artists have girls?
Some men live in absolute squalor in India or Mexico
according to you none of these men have women.

You have posted a thousand times that no girls will like you because
you are average and penniless. You have posted a dozen times that
you are not willing to do anything worthwhile to change your lot in
life.

You are remodeling your house on a 10 year plan (you are only slightly
behind plan). This fast remodeling leaves you knackered after working
your part time job. You can't get a better job, they don't exist and you
wouldn't take them because the taxes would take away any benefit.

You want to become ripped like a gym rat and have instituted an exercise
regimen of one pushup per month, but you haven't started the program
yet 

You are on a 10 year plan to learn Russian, but are currently on sabbatical
due to the being knackered by the fast paced part time job, remodeling,
and gym rat life you have been living.

Now you are trying to rationalize lying to women.

Mods,

Trench should have all his threads posted in the same place. When he starts a
new thread it should just be tossed in Trench's general thread. 100% of his threads
are about the same thing.

Why should this forum have 60 Trench threads? Why should it have 3?

Imagine a newbie coming here looking for insights and reading all of Trenchcoat's
crapola instead.

 

[Trenchcoat]

Tell me why do some penniless artists have girls?
Some men live in absolute squalor in India or Mexico
according to you none of these men have women.

You have posted a thousand times that no girls will like you because
you are average and penniless. You have posted a dozen times that
you are not willing to do anything worthwhile to change your lot in
life.

You are remodeling your house on a 10 year plan (you are only slightly
behind plan). This fast remodeling leaves you knackered after working
your part time job. You can't get a better job, they don't exist and you
wouldn't take them because the taxes would take away any benefit.

You want to become ripped like a gym rat and have instituted an exercise
regimen of one pushup per month, but you haven't started the program
yet 

You are on a 10 year plan to learn Russian, but are currently on sabbatical
due to the being knackered by the fast paced part time job, remodeling,
and gym rat life you have been living.

Now you are trying to rationalize lying to women.

Mods,

Trench should have all his threads posted in the same place. When he starts a
new thread it should just be tossed in Trench's general thread. 100% of his threads
are about the same thing.

Why should this forum have 60 Trench threads? Why should it have 3?

Imagine a newbie coming here looking for insights and reading all of Trenchcoat's
crapola instead.

In short, of recent, I've sorted out and organised my wardrobe buying some new items and tossing out some old ones. I now think I'm a bit sharper dressed so think that helps a bit. I've got some new heavier weights and started using them and sold of my old lightweight weights which were too light and so not useful. I've also redone my diet so that should get me in better shape. This summer I completed a cavity wall extension to my house by myself so that is the main stuff that was left there sorted. So it's coming together now I feel.

The Russian language thing is on hold as apart from quality time to spend on it I wasn't getting many women up on Fdate. A new photo has solved that so at some point I will be getting back to that. It's a lot to do all in all and only so many hours in the day but I'm getting there.

[Trenchcoat]

This is an article online about dating experience a wealthy guy had on Tinder, quite an interesting read really:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8484999/Why-no-decent-women-36-year-old-says-dating-far-worse-men.html

Looks like the women on Tinder and the like are generally just concerned with one thing, finding a wealthy guy. As this article shows they are more than willing to make out they are something they are but to get it. However their ineptitude and tacklessness give thalem away especially when they enquire about a guy's income, etc. I've been seeing a lot of profiles on Tinder where the girl has fake tan, eyelashes, fake white teeth fronts, etc and are trying to look wealthy with Chanel bags and neat dressing etc posing in some luxury style room. One showed a short video clip of herself pouting and kissing postures and smiling with her overly white fake teeth fronts. Honestly it was more of a turn off for me. I want to see a naturally looking attractive girl not some fake looking Barbie they much look the same as each other and I wouldn't really know who the girl as everything is fake, it was kind of eeirie in a way.

To be honest I'm kind of finding it a bit shocking the way dating has gone in this country. It looks like from this, from what I see on the likes of Tinder that dating is getting far worse not better than when I was doing online dating in the UK a good five years or so ago. I'm guessing the likes of Match, eHarmony, POF, etc are not any better can't see any reason why it would be. Looks like a lot of money hungry women on those sites without wealth of their own faking it up chasing men who they think have got money but many of which don't and are also faking it just so they can get sex out of the girl. Completely crazy!

[John Gaunt]

This is an article online about dating experience a wealthy guy had on Tinder, quite an interesting read really:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8484999/Why-no-decent-women-36-year-old-says-dating-far-worse-men.html

Looks like the women on Tinder and the like are generally just concerned with one thing, finding a wealthy guy. As this article shows they are more than willing to make out they are something they are but to get it. However their ineptitude and tacklessness give thalem away especially when they enquire about a guy's income, etc. I've been seeing a lot of profiles on Tinder where the girl has fake tan, eyelashes, fake white teeth fronts, etc and are trying to look wealthy with Chanel bags and neat dressing etc posing in some luxury style room. One showed a short video clip of herself pouting and kissing postures and smiling with her overly white fake teeth fronts. Honestly it was more of a turn off for me. I want to see a naturally looking attractive girl not some fake looking Barbie they much look the same as each other and I wouldn't really know who the girl as everything is fake, it was kind of eeirie in a way.

To be honest I'm kind of finding it a bit shocking the way dating has gone in this country. It looks like from this, from what I see on the likes of Tinder that dating is getting far worse not better than when I was doing online dating in the UK a good five years or so ago. I'm guessing the likes of Match, eHarmony, POF, etc are not any better can't see any reason why it would be. Looks like a lot of money hungry women on those sites without wealth of their own faking it up chasing men who they think have got money but many of which don't and are also faking it just so they can get sex out of the girl. Completely crazy!

Trench, I suggest you lower your expectations and join your local Bingo club.
You’re sure to meet the love of your life there. The future Mrs Trench is just waiting for her number to be called

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, I suggest you lower your expectations and join your local Bingo club.
You’re sure to meet the love of your life there. The future Mrs Trench is just waiting for her number to be called

Lol, yes I would probably have more luck there, I'm glad now you can see my problem with English women.

[John Gaunt]

Lol, yes I would probably have more luck there, I'm glad now you can see my problem with English women.

Actually, I don’t see there being a problem.
You are just looking in the wrong places.
Articles like the one you’ve posted just reinforce the stereotype you’ve bought into and therein lies the problem.

I’ve dated English women in the online age, and yes, you get all sorts out there but that didn’t stop me from finding women and having relationships with them.

The problem, I think, with you, is that you haven’t cut your teeth with local women and want to jump straight into the fsuw or international dating scene which is a far more risky, expensive and volatile place for the inexperienced to date.

There are plenty of English roses out there. You just have to cut through the thorns to pick yours.

[ML]

. . . the fsuw or international dating scene which is a far more risky, expensive and volatile place for the inexperienced to date.

I didn't find the FSUW dating scene to be risky or volatile.
Expensive only due to the airline flights and apartment rentals aspect.
Less expensive for those of you in UK or continental Europe.

Wife has a cousin in Ireland.  He and his family regularly fly to Ukraine for 10-20 euro.

[Trenchcoat]

I didn't find the FSUW dating scene to be risky or volatile.
Expensive only due to the airline flights and apartment rentals aspect.
Less expensive for those of you in UK or continental Europe.

Wife has a cousin in Ireland.  He and his family regularly fly to Ukraine for 10-20 euro.

I think the older ladies in their thirties and there after it tends to be less volatile than in their twenties. A lot of those FSW in their thirties know that they don't have time to mess about, even if they don't want children they want a pension plan.

There are obviously more scammers in the FSU dating scene and possibly that is what Gaunty is alluring too. For guys who are a but on the ball, done their research and have some experience it's often not a problem.

Overall I would say the dating environment in Ukraine is pretty nice, much nicer than compared to the UK. A woman is a woman there and a man is a man none of this not sure the place of either upon dating like here. Women here tend to have very lofty outlook as to what they want, in Ukraine less so. I know there are the girls that expect a guy to be wealthy but I don't get the impression that none of them really know the west or what to expect. The prettier girls are the ones who may later look to trade up of course.

I know that there are no doubt some decent girls in the UK but I think they would be a hard find on Tinder, in real life no doubt easier but then it's back to if they are single, etc. I think online dating in the FSU tends to dredge up more decent girls in larger quantities but there are those where the guy will have to have their wits about them to avoid a bad one in my opinion.

[GQBlues]

...Overall I would say the dating environment in Ukraine is pretty nice, much nicer than compared to the UK. A woman is a woman there and a man is a man none of this not sure the place of either upon dating like here. Women here tend to have very lofty outlook as to what they want, in Ukraine less so...

Holy smokes! Even I can't make that generalization. Amazing Trenchcoat can, rather easily...

[Trenchcoat]

At least a couple of women or so on Tinder have written in their profile that, 'the guy should have his sh*t together'. Like that is just so charming, I don't think I can think of any guy that would pass over on them lol. Gives me the impression not a very nice girl and I don't think they would appeal to the wealthy gentile guys they aspire to, I mean can you imagine them saying that stuff to the guy or to his family & friends they would wonder what kind of farm animal had trotted up to them!

[Jumper1]

TC,
A couple of things.
You have considered the internet can be  the ultimate confirmation Bias vehicle?

You have considered that in some dating app if
 someone is asked what they   hope* for  might include rather silly intangibles that wouldn't be the basis of their actual enduring relationship?

You might look for and  hope to find , a future Mrs trench, to have a net worth of  597 million, that she adore trench coats as a fashion.

Now noone would fault you for hoping for such. It's a bit of  human nature to hope for a carefree life with a partner who shares your likes and interests

 we can't extrapolate that generally men on dating sites are only after wealthy women from that.
It's just given a choice,even if it's a minor factor , it's a natural selection.

Most of the uk women are married to.uk men.
They arnt married to only wealthy ones.
In fact I'd say the lot of them are married to the average man.

I do think dating online has added to the *wish*factor being a bit higher,the options being considered more,but the end result is the same.
The average UK woman  still  isnt generally marrying prince charming in a white rolls royce anymore than the average UK man is marrying a supermodel/captain of industry.

Get off the net and bust your ass to make something happen.
anything.
Accept there will be good and bad.
Get out of your comfort zone.

As far as relationships the biggest investment you can make isn't in.material things like your home,or clothes,its in your outlook and mentality.

Sure you'll possibly  be overlooked by women *only interested in wealthy guys or in equals to their own life situation. That's natural. It's also zero excuse to not go forward with dating, right now,not when you have the house finished or a waredrobe you think a woman likes.

That leaves about 1 billion women for you to catch their attention.
Try humor,or since you're a brit humour.

It's generally quite endearing and is first on many women's list.
If that fails or is beyond your natural.impluse,that ok!!!
, just be yourself with an adjusted more down to earth mentality and outlook.
As it stands over the years I've watched you bring a lot of preconceived baggage to.the table of any relationship long  before you even say *hello I'm TC* to any woman.

So just drop all that  and say.
***Hello I'm TC,  I think I'm a tad  dysfunctional socially, but isn't everyone in today's world filled with dating apps ?***


I'm an idiot when it comes to truly understanding women, but women appreciate  many different things, one can be
a good bit of downplaying yourself and they do like to be actually heard,and appreciated for who they are and what they think and feel. That's it.

So just say that line  with genuineness, and a devils grin..

I could have you 5 dates in 5 days.
But you'd have to actually drop all the extra  baggage man.

A women with the level of baggage you've displayed here, equally has a very hard time getting a man interested in long term relationship.
Think about that.

 I've always encouraged you ,but pleaee drop.the unneeded unhealthy  baggage and  hit up.the UK lasses ! You may be right about the lot of them,
 but it only takes you being wrong about just  one of them! . The worst that would happen is a bit of rejection which is natural.
Not gettimg comfortable   handling that natural.part of dating life, seems to be an underlying issue in your search.
So go out and face it a 1000 times ,until your comfortable or at least  apathetic to it, and you'll move forward.

Like skydiving  only the first 50 jumps are scary,then after 100 its not even truly exciting.
After all.these years get out there!!!!

[Jumper1]

And yes basically I'm saying get your shit together! Asap!

What's wrong with a woman expressing that is what she'd like to see in a man?

Perhaps a bit more crudely relayed  than I'd prefer,but the
sentiment is absolutely valid.

Get your baggage  unloaded and behind you ,and you'll have your shit together enough for most women..
You'll be way ahead of the other TCS that havnt yet..
You do see that's what the women you mentioned are frustrated about right?

The lack of emotional maturity as far as relationships in most of the men they have met so far,has exasperated them.

They are painting you the picture that the competition bar is low.
I can assure you they are not  talking generally about money.

Doesn't mean they are catches themselves, but you'd need to.meet them to find that out wouldnt.you?

Get out there!



The competitions is so pathetic  those women are almost begging for an underemployed  TC (sans emotional mental baggage)

[Boethius]

There are obviously more scammers in the FSU dating scene and possibly that is what Gaunty is alluring too. For guys who are a but on the ball, done their research and have some experience it's often not a problem.

No.  He is alluding to the fact that marriage to a foreigner is far more complicated.  It really is a leap of faith.

Overall I would say the dating environment in Ukraine is pretty nice, much nicer than compared to the UK. A woman is a woman there and a man is a man none of this not sure the place of either upon dating like here.

So where does that leave you?

[2tallbill]

The problem, I think, with you, is that you haven’t cut your teeth with local women and want to jump straight into the fsuw or international dating scene which is a far more risky, expensive and volatile place for the inexperienced to date.

Excellent point, FSUW are not for entry level daters