Hello to all and I have a question to ask although I cannot imagine that it has not been asked on this forum before.
In the four trips I have made to Ukraine I have learned and absorbed much from each experience. These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is. I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA. So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.
Two responses:
In the FSU, many people would be far more materialistic if they had the means to be so.
In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives.
I agree with this 100%.
David, I appreciate what you are trying to convey with your idea of traveling light.
However, I think you are giving somewhat of a misleading example.
Your traveling from Ukraine back to a home city (I presume) in USA for 6 weeks, cannot really be compared to a AM traveling to a new city in FSU for 6 weeks.
No one can live out of a carry-on for 6 weeks. Let's be honest here.
In USA, we have other sets of clothes stored somewhere, can borrow from friends and relatives, can purchase clothes cheaply at WalMart, etc., we know exactly where all the OTC medicines and other necessities are, and have no language barriers in finding such, etc.
None of this applies when we travel to FSU.
Also, when coming back to USA for a visit as you did, we can dress like a beggar and no one cares. But this won't fly when going to FSU to meet and woo ladies.
It is good to share tips on these boards. But the tips should be realistic and fit the situation.
These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is. I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA.
Western lifestyle complicated? You must be kidding me. Try starting a business in Russia or Ukraine, or getting a driver's license, or registering your vehicle/ passing inspection etc. Try finding a secure retirement savings fund. Try placing your kid in a good kindergarten/school without paying enormous bribes.
You simply have no idea how complicated life in the FSU may be unless you have VERY good income, i.e. materialistic lifestyle, in your definition.
BF is right, life in the FSU is far more complicated and difficult than life in the west. I am always amazed by WM who have some fantasy ideal about life in the FSU. These WM think that they can live with their FSUW and family in an apartment in Moscow or St. Pete or perhaps in a house in some out of the way place like Voronezh and live a calmer, slower, better life than life in London, New York or Moab, Utah. It really is a fantasy.
Most expats take a job in Russia as an adventure or challenge, something that will look good on their CV. Many return home at the first opportunity, once the true extent of the challenges of working in a country in which corruption, incompetence, indifference and lack of resources is realized and these expats are usually working for western employers.
Over the years of visiting the FSU I have met numerous expats who lived in Moscow and cities throughout the FSU. Some have married FSUW and learned Russian and manage to live a good life by Russian standards. These expats don't plan on retiring in Russia and with few exceptions if they were offered a promotion or even a comparable job in their home country or in some western country they would take it.
I did not say that it was easy to live there. I realized the first time I went that it was a "dog eat dog" lifestyle for the most part. I said that the experience has taught me to change priorities in my life and future (even though they may be easier to come by here in the USA). Here I have options and a choice. In FSU countries I would not have the same options or choice because the "needs" would be harder to obtain and to achieve on a daily basis. It has taught me to count my blessings and look at my life objectively, that is all.
Does anyone count their blessings any more these days as Mama taught them?
For instance, I learned that life without a car is not an unimaginable horror, hardly ever interacting with government officialdom can be wonderfully appreciated and that just because someone says they are a doctor, policeman, economist or business person, the cross-cultural definition they are applying should be carefully checked for accuracy as you translate it. I learned a people can stoically accept corruption and deprivation as a normal situation if they are held down at barely-above-subsistence living standards for a couple of generations. That propaganda, along with controlled lack of choices and options can result in changes of attitude and perception by an entire population and that it will take two or three generations to correct those perceptions and return to "normalcy".
Did I learn that the "Western ways" are flawed, inefficient or otherwise not realistic? Nope.
OTOH, I too learned that a car isn't a dire necessity and that it is wasteful to drive just a block or 3 to pick up something at the market when your legs could really use the exercise and your lungs benefit from the walk and from the fresh air.
In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives.
Mendeleyev, breath in fresh air while walking the streets of Moscow? You might get some exercise walking 3 or 4 blocks but fresh air has been in short supply in Moscow for a number of years. :)True, but certainly no worse than Los Angeles. I always liked it when I would see people running for the daily exercise around the streets of LA during rush hour ;D.
True, but certainly no worse than Los Angeles. I always liked it when I would see people running for the daily exercise around the streets of LA during rush hour ;D.
I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.Definitely, even after two trips - the first prepared me for some things, but I found a lot of others second time round.
Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility.Seriously, who needs one, unless you live a fair way out of town? I live in what is geographically one of the world's biggest cities, where the perennial complaint is the lack of public transport, especially bus routes across town (most radiate out from the city centre). Although I'm lucky enough to live very close to a bus route which would take me directly to my office, I usually drive a car to work because it's quicker, cheaper and more convenient if I need to go somewhere at lunchtime or after work. As an aside, especially to those FSU residents who may not have seen this, local bus and train fares (no Metro) here vary by distance travelled - there's no such thing as the "one fare for all stops."
Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.We have supermarkets here which now charge for plastic bags, although most have discontinued the practice after howls of anguish from people who wanted to keep contributing to landfill excesses. Gaining rapidly in popularity is the type of linen bag which you can take to pack your groceries in when you leave (or, in my mother's case, about eight of them!). I normally went to produkti for my shopping, and the only proper supermarket I used was in Odessa. Athough they had a security man on the door he never inspected my bag.
Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd. Item by item comparing it to my receipt. Perhaps I just look evil...
I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure. (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.) Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.
Unless anyone spend a sizeable amount of time living like the natives and fully function as one in a particular environment can one objectively say it had a profound effect in their ways of life and thinking. It takes a while for anyone to be influenced by their new surrounding/environment to the point they are concisely affected by it and make an objective change accordingly.A lot of truth here Matt and I hope to expound a little on this and what DB and Shosty said as well when I can find the time, but XMan had some interesting viewpoints as well.
I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression. So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.I believe that they have a more pragmatic outlook on life when it comes to things. Maybe it’s partly from their tragic history, but I’m not surprised by your admittance of worrying more.
A majority of the women I met were hard working, sincere people. I am not sure what I expected prior to my first trip. I suppose my Scam Detector was set on ultra high alert.A vast majority work hard. I think most have no idea just how hard a lot of these women work. I was at L’Oreal yesterday and my client took me back into the office area on just one floor where there were about 60 women locked into work.
I should appreciate more my particular circumstances. In my case hard work actually paid off (thus far), more or less. For some that I met, not so much.Good advice for everyone. The person with no shoes often complains until he/she sees someone with no feet.
I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible. If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia. Very unusual.I would tend to agree except to the point of paranoia part, but I don’t think it’s restricted just to the FSU.
I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny. To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met. Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different. But it seemed remarkable to me.Fate/destiny is big here, but IMO not much different than my experience in America.
I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic. So I realized that changing a Ukrainian woman's mind about something might be even more difficult than changing an American woman's mind about something. Now THAT was an eye opening revelation.It’s getting better as more people have access to more information through the internet, travel and such, at least with regard to maintaining good health. Changing FSUW’s minds is best done by example as far as my experience goes. I keep myself extremely fit so that my best argument. My g/f stopped smoking after a month being around me.
Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility.I haven’t owned a car for almost 7 years now and I don’t miss at all (well except for a few exceptions). I’ve notice that my stress level from not driving has lowered considerably.
Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.A little strange at first, but at 1 rouble a pop I just go with the flow.
Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd. Item by item comparing it to my receipt. Perhaps I just look evil. But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting. Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it. Don't know, just an observation. A heck of a lot of security for a grocery store. A woman I was with had a terrible headache and had to take aspirin. Opened one of my bottles of water to sip, put it back in my cart. A security person came over and actually made me pay for that particular bottle before I could continue shopping. I'm not kidding. Wish I had it on video, because when I tell that story, no one believes it.After government agencies, dealing with the security here is my least favorite thing.
I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure. (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.) Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.Even in Moscow, the prices aren’t that much different than Los Angeles, as an example. Fruits are much cheaper in LA as California produces about half the country’s supply. Especially in winter here.
Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change. Ever. I always found myself parsing out my cash, thinking ahead, making sure I had enough small bills for taxis, etc. That goes for Russia and Ukraine. I find that it annoys the heck out of me over a period of time. I was exchanging money at a bank once and they tried to give me a couple of 500 grivna bills. I handed them back and insisted on 50's because NO ONE would want to take a 500, unless I happened to be spending more than 500 at a shot. Of course, some folks simply don't have change for large bills. But this applies to buying even a candy bar with a small bill at a small shop. One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something.I’ve tried to figure this out too. My conclusion is the shops just don’t have enough of the “right” change to give you.
Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything. Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now.No question!
I’ve tried to figure this out too. My conclusion is the shops just don’t have enough of the “right” change to give you.For a number of reasons, in the mid 1970s we ran out of It£50-100 coins (the equivalent of nickels and dimes then) and our Mint could not keep up with the demand for a couple of years. Shopkeepers were furious, so our Government - following an initiative by a Turin bank - authorised all banks to issue assegnini (mini cashier's cheques) in small denominations as legal tender in lieu of the scarce coins:
I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.
Same here. Didn't really change my way of thinking but, of course, exposed me to a different [mostly incorrect :-)) ] way of thinking.
I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression. So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.
This ties in closely with their idea that many things are just fated to happen and that they actually do have less control over outcomes than we do.
I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible. If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia. Very unusual.
Agree completely
I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny. To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met. Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different. But it seemed remarkable to me.
Agree
I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.
Yes, in many ways they think not much differently than African bush people. It has been a headache for me with more than one woman and came very close to being the cause of ending an otherwise great relationship with one woman. Not completely home free on this issue yet with her, so it might still doom the relationship.
Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.
Actually this is a very good idea. The outcome is to save natural resources and/or prevent damage to ecology from piling up of excess bags in trash dumps. The USA is moving slowly toward this method also.
Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd. Item by item comparing it to my receipt. Perhaps I just look evil. But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting. Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.
Everyone here should be very aware that the 'general' mentality in FSU is different when it comes to illegal activity. You only have to know that the FSU mobs have taken over the crime syndicates in USA in a relative short period of time to realize they are very good at this. On the micro level, I have talked with managers of supermarkets, etc., and they confirm that shoplifting is rampant and the people actually see nothing wrong with it. To 'most' people, it is just an extension of other aspects of life in FSU where you have to pay bribes to get many things done, where it was always common to steal construction materials to build the dachas, etc.
And, in more generality, it is a reflection of the FSU people's disdain for rules and laws. It has been commented here about the FSUW disdain for such things as wearing seatbelts, etc. It is also reflected in the very high rate of overstaying visas, etc.
Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change. One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something.
It has nothing at all to do with a shortage of coins. It is simply another manifestation of the general rudeness of the FSU people and the lack of customer service. This also is a major headache of mine and even causes some problems with my women. When the clerk asks us to help make the change, I simply say 'no, we do not have any change.' The gals I am with often reach for their purses to get some coins, and I tell them to stop it. It is just simply ridiculous that the clerks sit there with a till full of coins and small bills, and yet burden the customer with the tedious work of doing the job of the clerk. And this is not just a matter of my not wanting to help. As mentioned by others, we need the coins and small bills to pay for the minibus rides, to pick up some apples, etc., from the street vendor babushkas, etc. Save your coins and small bills for those transactions where the small business person legitimately does not have a large amount of change.
Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything. Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now.
I think some romanticise foreign travel and relationships too much. You can experience these same things simply by traveling to the next city, the next state, etc.
True, many here are traveling to FSU in seek of women. But aside from that, I find it rather humorous that many in our general population have the hots to travel overseas when, in fact, they have not visited the majority of their own country. For sightseeing and fantastic places to see, it is difficult to beat the USA.
Give them time to play with their new toys, let them finish eating. Right now they're just working on the appetizers.
There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy: FSU citizens tend to have distrust of banks and an appreciation for the ephemeral nature of prosperity.
It's simple mathematics, db.. The rate of inflation is 12% to infinity while the best deposit interest rate is currently around 9%..
There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy:
I know a man who lived in Germany in the interwar period, and through WWII. Half a century later, he still doesn't keep a lot of cash. Everything is converted to either gold, or gold stocks.Once bitten, twice shy ;D:
So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.