Do you ever wonder why learning Russian is close to impossible?

[SANDRO43]

BUT in one of the primary languages of my country, kak = sh!t

Same here (cacca) .

[Vaughn]

Upthread, Medeleyev offered a valuable battery of useful links -
some of which I'd never known about. Good stuff. A couple of
years ago I started this thread - there was minimal interest but
some good suggestions about Rosetta Stone, Pimsleur and so forth.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2493.0

.... I have a couple of coworkers who studied Russian and
said they can speak it, so I let them talk to my wife. My wife said she had no idea what
they were saying.

Mark, I hear you. I've heard novices butcher the pronunciation so badly that
the evidence shows they've learned without hearing - or - made no effort to
perfect the pronunciation (as well as they are able). As for your own experience,
don't despair - understanding a flow of table conversation (or a news report)
takes much study, and even more practice. It's all worth it to those who have
that desire.

Vaughn

[SANDRO43]

Wow! What a great post mendeleyev! That should be stickied by itself somewhere (once all the links are checked).

I put a link to Mendeleyev's post in the RWDpedia (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/mwiki/index.php?title=Learn_Russian) .

[Ronnie]

Upthread, Medeleyev offered a valuable battery of useful links -
some of which I'd never known about. Good stuff. A couple of
years ago I started this thread - there was minimal interest but
some good suggestions about Rosetta Stone, Pimsleur and so forth.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2493.0

Mark, I hear you. I've heard novices butcher the pronunciation so badly that
the evidence shows they've learned without hearing - or - made no effort to
perfect the pronunciation (as well as they are able). As for your own experience,
don't despair - understanding a flow of table conversation (or a news report)
takes much study, and even more practice. It's all worth it to those who have
that desire.

Vaughn

The key words, Vaughn, are "as well as they are able."  Proper pronunciation in a new language is similar to learning to sing -  either it comes naturally or it may never come at all.

[2tallbill]

When I first began trying to learn Russian I had a major problem, (still have many major problems with it), but this problem kept cracking me up.
как = how ........ok no problem, we can all accept this simple word...........
BUT in one of the primary languages of my country, kak = sh!t
Yes, I know....I am juvenile, but hell it was hard to get past that one!

Dermo is the Russian word for Sh!t

Bill

[possum]

Dermo is the Russian word for Sh!t

Bill

I would argue that the most common word for sh1t is not dermo but govno.. Also, kakat' is another word for taking a sh1t.. My grandmother, God rest her soul, used to say 'kak-kak da i kuchka' which can be translated as 'kak kak, and you've got yourself a pile of sh1t'..

[Ooooops]

Do you wonder why learning to speak Russian is impossible?

Not more impossible than learning English.   

[SANDRO43]

Not more impossible than learning English.   

Having tried both (and a number of others: www.floriani.it/lingue-eng.htm), I beg to differ, Ooooops.

IMO, English is the simplest foreign language I've ever come across, grammatically and syntactically: no declensions, verbs have always the same conjugation for all persons (except for the 3rd singular adding an -S in the present tense only), etc. etc.

[ScottinCrimea]

I think one of the best statements I've heard about learning Russian is that with most languages, the more you learn the easier it gets, but with Russian, the more you learn, the more difficult it gets.

[SANDRO43]

I think one of the best statements I've heard about learning Russian is that with most languages, the more you learn the easier it gets, but with Russian, the more you learn, the more difficult it gets.

Any specifics as to why it should be so ?

[Ronnie]

Sandrino,
You are right about noun declensions and verb conjugations being next to non-existent in English.  But there are some problems encountered by ESL students that are rarely encountered by students of Russian or Italian:

*Use of prepositions, when to use, when not to use, which to use..
(granted both Russian and Italian have these but are less confusing, IMO);
*Use of articles.. when to use, when not to use, which to use.
(Italian has the same problems, Russian does not).
*Various pronunciations of the same letter or word.. (Rare to non-existent in Russian and Italian or fully predictable where existent)
*Silent letters..
*Words that sound the same but are spelled diffent and have different meanings...slay, sleigh...rite, right.
*Words pronounced and spelled the same but with totally different meanings..only the context reveals which...."right and right"

Between the three, I rank Italian as the purest most consistent with fewer unique sounds to learn.  Russian and English are both difficult but for different reasons.  I'm thinking English is easier judging from the relative ease with which Russians learn English vs the lack of ease in the opposite direction.  But how much of that is the exposure they get to English through music, films, etc when we get so little such exposure.  Even the Volga Boatmen Song was translated into English when I was taking piano lessons as a tyke. 

[Misha]

MO, English is the simplest foreign language I've ever come across, grammatically and syntactically: no declensions, verbs have always the same conjugation for all persons (except for the 3rd singular adding an -S in the present tense only), etc. etc.

For a Russian-speaker, learning English does pose its challenges. Try explaining to a distraught spouse the difference between Future Perfect Continuous, Future Perfect, Future Continuous, and Simple Future, for example. English grammar is not necessarily easy to understand for a Russian-speaker learning English.

[OlgaH]

  Even the Volga Boatmen Song was translated into English when I was taking piano lessons as a tyke. 

Yo, heave ho! Yo, heave ho!

Once more, once again, still once more

Volga Burlak's song

[SANDRO43]

Ronaldo, I agree with most of your points, however I consider them, let's say, 2nd-stage difficulties, i.e. one can become basically articulate and comprehending even without mastering them .

*Use of prepositions... which to use..(granted both Russian and Italian have these but are less confusing, IMO);

This an aspect that still causes me to ponder at times, after about 50 years of practice, when verbs are involved. German is similar, only they prefix prepositions to their verbs (as would any orderly person, they are prepositions, after all ).

*Use of articles.. when to use, when not to use, which to use.
(Italian has the same problems, Russian does not).

Don't see much difficulty here, given that English has only one determinate (THE) and one indeterminate article (A, AN). Granted that Russian speakers may find them odd, since they have none.

*Various pronunciations of the same letter or word.. (Rare to non-existent in Russian and Italian or fully predictable where existent)
*Silent letters..
*Words that sound the same but are spelled diffent and have different meanings...slay, sleigh...rite, right.
*Words pronounced and spelled the same but with totally different meanings..only the context reveals which...."right and right"

We've discussed the chaotic relationship between written English and its pronunciation before (and its historical causes). However, some of your examples are not quite as difficult as they seem, since context and syntax help differentiate verbs/nouns (slay, sleigh), nouns/adjectives-adverbs (rite, right). As for "right and right", this ambiguity is not limited to English: It. diritto, French droit/droite, Spanish derecho, etc.

Between the three, I rank Italian as the purest most consistent with fewer unique sounds to learn.

As you may have discovered, Italian also has its own pronunciation ambiguities, too (Os, Es, Ss, Zs ).

A language presents the fewer pronunciation ambiguities the more distinct letters it has available to represent its phonetics. Russian is an example, and also Arabic, where for instance two different letters exist for the TH as in 'THin' and the TH as in 'THe'.

[SANDRO43]

For a Russian-speaker, learning English does pose its challenges. Try explaining to a distraught spouse the difference between Future Perfect Continuous, Future Perfect, Future Continuous, and Simple Future, for example. English grammar is not necessarily easy to understand for a Russian-speaker learning English.

Misha, I must agree with you, too, simply because I'm not into Russian enough to know what equivalents, if any, they may have, and hence their difficulty in grasping them. Since they are also well present in neo-Latin languages, we have no great problem with them .

Anyway, my point is: how dire is their need to master them ? In other words, how often are they used by native speakers in common speech or the media ?

[Misha]

Misha, I must agree with you, too, simply because I'm not into Russian enough to know what equivalents, if any, they may have, and hence their difficulty in grasping them.

That is the problem, they don't really have any equivalents that I have found in Russian.

[SANDRO43]

That is the problem, they don't really have any equivalents that I have found in Russian.

I'm digging in my memory and may be off the mark, but couldn't the future of a perfective and its related imperfective verb cover at least part of the problem ?

[Ooooops]

Having tried both (and a number of others: www.floriani.it/lingue-eng.htm), I beg to differ, Ooooops.

IMO, English is the simplest foreign language I've ever come across, grammatically and syntactically:

Ok, may be English is easier to learn than Russian, but it's still not impossible to learn Russian.   Было бы желание.   

You all probably seen this joke many times, but I'll post it anyway, because it fits the conversation   

The European Commission has announced an agreement whereby
English will be the official language of the EU, rather than
German, which was the other contender. Her Majesty's Government
conceded that English spelling had room for improvement and has
therefore accepted a five-year phasing in of "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly,
this will make sivil servants jump for joy. The hard "c" will be
dropped in favour of the "k", Which should klear up some konfusion
and allow one key less on keyboards.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when
the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f", making words like
"fotograf" 20% shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are
possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters
which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil
agre that the horible mes of the silent "e" is disgrasful.

By the fourth yer, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as
replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords
kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli
sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and
everivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. ZE DREM VIL FINALI
COM TRU!

[SANDRO43]

Ok, may be English is easier to learn than Russian, but it's still not impossible to learn Russian.

I didn't say that . To use an analogy, I'd say English is a staircase with shallow first steps that get steeper very very gradually, while Russian starts immediately with huge steps (alphabet, declensions, a vocabulary basically unrelated to Neo-Latin/Germanic languages) that, according to Scott, get even worse ascending .

You all probably seen this joke many times, but I'll post it anyway, because it fits the conversation

Yes, but it's always enjoyable, IMO .

[Ooooops]

\To use an analogy, I'd say English is a staircase with shallow first steps that get steeper very very gradually, while Russian starts immediately with huge steps (alphabet, declensions, a vocabulary basically unrelated to Neo-Latin/Germanic languages)

What's difficult about Russian alphabet?   It's very close to Latin, nothing like Chinese or Hindu scrambles.     My husband learned alphabet very quick so he can read Russian but has no clue what it means.   

[SANDRO43]

Tonight they showed on one of our TV channels Everything Is Illuminated, a 2005 movie directed by Liev Schreiber starring Elijah Wood (Frodo in the Lord of the Rings)

Plot:
A young Jewish American man endeavors to find the woman who saved his grandfather during World War II in a Ukrainian village, that was ultimately razed by the Nazis, with the help of a local who speaks weirdly funny broken English.

Anybody seen it ?

[SANDRO43]

What's difficult about Russian alphabet?

It's foreign .

It's very close to Latin

Actually, it's closer to Greek (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7409.msg132887#msg132887) .

[Ooooops]

Tonight they showed on one of our TV channels Everything Is Illuminated, a 2005 movie directed by Liev Schreiber starring Elijah Wood (Frodo in the Lord of the Rings)Anybody seen it ?

Yep, I've seen it recently and thought it was pretty good.   Very sad, though... 

[Ooooops]

Actually, it's closer to Greek (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7409.msg132887#msg132887) .

It's not closer to Greek, it is Greek with some modifications - Cyril and Methodius, remember?   

[Jet]

Tonight they showed on one of our TV channels Everything Is Illuminated, a 2005 movie directed by Liev Schreiber starring Elijah Wood (Frodo in the Lord of the Rings)Anybody seen it ?

I've seen this a number of times. The first half of the movie is absolutely hilarious! 
The second half, incredibly sad 
I'd highly recommend it to anybody that hasn't seen it yet.