More Bad News for Russia

[mendeleyev]

I have now read and re-read both Jone's and Mendelelev's responses to the comment I made regarding the temporary NATO base in Russia, and how that military base was evidence that Russia isn't actually concerned about NATO. 


I still don't think that temporary military base provides evidence that Russia isn't concerned about NATO.  There may be other exhibits that show Russia isn't concerned about NATO, but that particular temporary base in which they received ample compensation for isn't evidence.  The base didn't pose any real threat to Russia.  Russia has nuclear weapons, and that is enough of a disincentive as is needed....But NATO nations can and do still align, and that can be problematic for Russia, but I don't think they actually worry about an invasion.   


Fathertime!

Temporary? The proposal by the Kremlin for contracts allowing certain companies exclusive rights to maintain the base and NATO aircraft was anything but temporary.

FT, the contract for a NATO base inside was meant to be a quiet affair, likely "off budget" so that certain parties could financially benefit, much like the cost overruns and shady accounting surrounding Sochi.

The plug was pulled because the Russian media, then still quasi independent before the restrictions and restructuring, had begun to make the base a story. That obviously ran counter to the notion that "NATO is out to destroy us" and not only helped end the relationship, but gave Putin the ammunition needed for his crackdown on media outlets.

[fathertime]

Temporary? The proposal by the Kremlin for contracts allowing certain companies exclusive rights to maintain the base and NATO aircraft was anything but temporary.

FT, the contract for a NATO base inside was meant to be a quiet affair, likely "off budget" so that certain parties could financially benefit, much like the cost overruns and shady accounting surrounding Sochi.

The plug was pulled because the Russian media, then still quasi independent before the restrictions and restructuring, had begun to make the base a story. That obviously ran counter to the notion that "NATO is out to destroy us" and not only helped end the relationship, but gave Putin the ammunition needed for his crackdown on media outlets.

All of what you say may be true...BUT I still don't see how having the NATO base, which wound up being temporary, provides evidence that Russia isn't concerned about NATO.  Even silly Moby is now stating with adamantly that they are terrified of NATO! 


Healthy benefits for some Russians were received for a military base that posed no threat to the sovereignty of Russia.  This base, doesn't provide evidence that Russia isn't concerned about what NATO can do, I just don't think leadership is very concerned that NATO is going to invade Russia.  What leadership says to their people may be a different story of course.  Our representatives here say all sorts of mistruths to the people also. 


Fathertime! 

[msmobyone]

Even silly Moby is now stating with adamantly that they are terrified of NATO! 

No, 'silly Moby' has lived / worked  amongst Russians / Ukrainians, etc., for 14 years and understands better than the 'internet surfer' who's never been here...

I spoke of 'paranoia' - of being invaded - again. The Kremlin talks up the threat - whilst engaging in regime changing, supporting dictators... 'NATO's'  sins' ...

Carry on twisting my words and demonstrating your 'grasp' of the situation .... I have a 'master' here - sorting out our non-functioning home internet / iptv - what's your excuse for not cuddling up in the sack with a loved one and posting daft on here ?

[fathertime]

No, 'silly Moby' has lived / worked  amongst Russians / Ukrainians, etc., for 14 years and understands better than the 'internet surfer' who's never been here...

I spoke of 'paranoia' - of being invaded - again. The Kremlin talks up the threat - whilst engaging in regime changing, supporting dictators... 'NATO's'  sins' ...

Carry on twisting my words and demonstrating your 'grasp' of the situation .... I have a 'master' here - sorting out our non-functioning home internet / iptv - what's your excuse for not cuddling up in the sack with a loved one and posting daft on here ?

Poor guy, now whining about 'twisting words'...It twas you that joined in the conversion, and began by twisting yourself!   


Sounds like you also believe that the NATO base posed no actual threat!


Fathertime!   

[msmobyone]

Poor guy, now whining about 'twisting words'...It twas you that joined in the conversion, and began by twisting yourself!   


Sounds like you also believe that the NATO base posed no actual threat!

Nice attempt at a dodge - but I have 'your number', now

I'm the guy pointing out you're clueless about about how Russian [ previously most Ukrainian people ] think out NATO - a 'threat' ..

Mendy raised the base - please don't get confused about which guy is having a 'larf at your expense ..

I guess you prefer to troll at night ...

[fathertime]

Nice attempt at a dodge - but I have 'your number', now

I'm the guy pointing out you're clueless about about how Russian [ previously most Ukrainian people ] think out NATO - a 'threat' ..

Mendy raised the base - please don't get confused about which guy is having a 'larf at your expense ..

I guess you prefer to troll at night ...

Haha,  so far as much as it must dismay you, you have agreed with the earlier point made regarding the NATO military base not being a threat, as an invasion of Russia isn't happening!  What the everyday people are being told is a different story.  So in that respect it made sense for Russia to permit the base, and receive what it could out of it.  It is humorous that you are all up at arms and think this is 'trolling'.  It tis only you that is angrily trolling!


Perhaps you could go on and discuss your all-important 'master' and internet woes some more.  That is a critical aspect to the discussion!   


Fathertime!

[msmobyone]

Haha,  so far as much as it must dismay you, you have agreed with the earlier point made regarding the NATO military base not being a threat,

Once again - your sleep deprived trolling has you confused - that 'response' is for Mendy..

Perhaps you could go on and discuss your all-important 'master' and internet woes some more.  That is a critical aspect to the discussion!   

Once again a dodge on your part - I took you up on your clueless grasp of the psyche of most Russians and the Kremlin playing on this ....

Perhaps you should cuddle up to your good lady and respond after a good night's sleep .... you are just providing 'sport'...

Problem sorted - off to the sea-front  ..master#1# called for help and having a guy at both ends

[fathertime]

Once again - your sleep deprived trolling has you confused - that 'response' is for Mendy..

I think it is YOU that is confused, my sleep has been good enough!

Once again a dodge on your part - I took you up on your clueless grasp of the psyche of most Russians and the Kremlin playing on this ....

Perhaps you should cuddle up to your good lady and respond after a good night's sleep .... you are just providing 'sport'...

Problem sorted - off to the sea-front  ..master#1# called for help and having a guy at both ends - problem sorted.

There is nothing to dodge!  Whether you like it or not, you have agreed with my earlier point, which is that NATO for a short period having a military base in Russia does not provide evidence that Russia isn't concerned about NATO, they just felt the base was no threat, and reaped the benefits from having it.  I didn't comment on the 'psych' of  regular Russians, but if I did, I wouldn't take your word as anything important, it has been apparent that you don't have the greatest grasp on things generally anyway! 


I'm glad your 'master' has solved your important internet problems, now you are free to go sun bathe at the ocean.   


Fathertime!   

[jone]

I, quite honestly, don't know what the fuss is about! 

Mendy was pointing out that the NATO base inside of Russia demonstrated the good will between Russia and NATO (which I further elaborated on).    While there may have been discomfort in Russia that so many of the former Soviet Republics and client states were joining NATO, Russia was demonstrating the same sort of cooperation.  And special dispensation was made to Russia, encouraging Russia never to become the 'bad guy' again.  It is all well documented.

Then Russia invades Ukraine and brings war back to Eastern Europe.  In the Russian media, instead of saying that Russia was the bad guy, Russia first points to the Neo Nazis in Kyiv.  That is well documented.  Then Ukraine elects new leadership and it is evident that there is no such Neo Nazi movement in Kyiv.   During this same time, Russia claims that the CIA is responsible for Maidan and that the entire operation was designed to destabilize Russia.  This was at the same time all of the world's athletes were competing in Sochi during the winter Olympics.  (Does anyone see the absurdity of all of this?)

So how is Russia to sell the continuing conflagration in Ukraine, the increased Military build up, the new bases on the borders of former allies?  Encroachment by NATO, of course!   (Those BASTIDS!)  Throw in a couple of beheadings by ISIS, in full view, on the Russian TV stations and you've got a riled up population. 

This is pretty elementary stuff.  I'm sure anyone can go over to another forum and they will tell you that this is not what happened.  But for discerning minds, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

[TigerPaws]

the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Actually the shortest distance between 2 points is zero. Simply fold the 2 points so that they are across from each other and punch a hole through to the second point.

Is there really any good guys today or are all of the players using each other and colluding to some extent for their own gain?

[jone]

Yeah, and if a Frog had Wings, it wouldn't womp its ass every time it hopped.

[AkMike]

In keeping with their bullying tactics against smaller neighbors that might want the protection of NATO like many former states of the FSU have already done.

"Russia Issues Fresh Threats Against Unaligned Nordic States"

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/2016/05/05/russia-issues-fresh-threats-against-unaligned-nordic-states/83959852/

[southernX]

lot of energy and effort going into feeding the forum proffesional debaters tp & ft

total waste of time

but i aplaude the efforts of those trying to educate them and others

fancy anyone thinking russians are not worried about NATO potentially invading ????
or that russia is an innocent fluffy little white rabbit that is totally at risk by the big bad wolf like neighbours on its borders lol 

SX

[JayH]

lot of energy and effort going into feeding the forum proffesional debaters tp & ft

total waste of time

but i aplaude the efforts of those trying to educate them and others

SX

 

[BC]

lot of energy and effort going into feeding the forum proffesional debaters tp & ft

total waste of time

but i aplaude the efforts of those trying to educate them and others

fancy anyone thinking russians are not worried about NATO potentially invading ????
or that russia is an innocent fluffy little white rabbit that is totally at risk by the big bad wolf like neighbours on its borders lol 

SX

in the end it's all just a huge game of 'tit for tat' where the first tit is a chicken or egg first argument that will never get resolved.

The only productive way would be for NATO and RU to accept the current status quo moving forward.

[JayH]

in the end it's all just a huge game of 'tit for tat' where the first tit is a chicken or egg first argument that will never get resolved.

The only productive way would be for NATO and RU to accept the current status quo moving forward.

You can add yourself to the clueless list.
Your comment again shows how little idea you have-just ridiculous-and ignorant.

[msmobyone]

Hmmm,

JayH

I might not agree with all BC's conclusions - but he does have 'a clue' ....

[BC]

You can add yourself to the clueless list.
Your comment again shows how little idea you have-just ridiculous-and ignorant.

Yeah right.. lol

http://books.google.it/books?id=PFv9Ofn-myoC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=
nato+assures+Russia+not+encroaching+baltic&source=bl&ots=
v2bP5EYQTw&sig=nuH8ink8MoZA6vvLOmZkwEIbZpA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=
0ahUKEwiIp4n1-8TMAhVBKsAKHTKqBYgQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=
nato%20assures%20Russia%20not%20encroaching%20baltic&f=false

start at page 154, read and comprehend.


Link edited so as to not affect reading pane - Anonmod

[TigerPaws]

http://southfront.org/foreign-policy-diary-donbass-further-escalation-of-violence/

As I said things are very likely to go hot very quickly.

[fathertime]

I, quite honestly, don't know what the fuss is about! 

Mendy was pointing out that the NATO base inside of Russia demonstrated the good will between Russia and NATO (which I further elaborated on).   

I have posted below the quote so with all due respect you are completely white washing what mendeleyev stated and why.  He was NOT providing an example of the 'good will' between the nations, he was attempting to criticize Russia/Putin.  Of course this is not a problem, that what discussion is about, BUT I was pointing out the flaw in the logic contained in his post.   


He has stated that the NATO base within Russia demonstrates the "Lie of the aggressive West'   I say that the base provides zero evidence that the West hasn't been aggressive, because the base was of no threat to Russia, it provided money, and other favors to Russia, and was shoved off when it became even a minor problem.  I'm just not seeing how having what was a temporary military base in Russia proves that the West isn't being aggressive in other areas, which I believe they are. 

After the election of 2012, Putin made a gesture to the West by allowing NATO to have a base INSIDE Russia. Of course, high rent was a part of the deal, but it turned to a lie the idea that Russia was being surrounded by aggressive West out to dominate Moscow & Co. Oh, and part of the deal included Washington recognizing a flawed 2012 election that returned Putin to power.

There were some quirks in the NATO base: Putin soon insisted that companies run by Oligarchs, instead of NATO personnel, have exclusive access to maintenance of NATO planes, for example. That went over in DC and Brussels like a lead balloon, and when Russian media (then still independent) began to inform the Russia public about a NATO base inside Russia, it didn't take long for the deal to end. Today, the old story of "NATO is trying to surround us" is back, and it seems that nationalism trumps reality these days.

[fathertime]

in the end it's all just a huge game of 'tit for tat' where the first tit is a chicken or egg first argument that will never get resolved.

The only productive way would be for NATO and RU to accept the current status quo moving forward.

It is humorous how some only want to see what they want to see, and ignore, and fuss about anything that doesn't coincide with their warped world view!


Fathertime!   

[jone]

in the end it's all just a huge game of 'tit for tat' where the first tit is a chicken or egg first argument that will never get resolved.

The only productive way would be for NATO and RU to accept the current status quo moving forward.

The whole NATO movement was to make Russian a cooperating partner.  There was even talk of disbanding NATO because it had completed its purpose - Russia was no longer a belligerent.    While Russia did not like the Status Quo, it was playing the game, making moves within the diplomatic framework.  Then, along comes a former Republic that Russia tries to bribe into changing its foreign policy course - remember that Yanu was President when Ukraine was going to first sign the affiliation agreement with the EU.  Russia could not accept this happening because if Ukraine was not in Putin's Eurasian Union, then such a union would be toothless.  So, Maidan happens and Russia creates a hybrid war on Ukraine's soil.

None of this had anything to do, directly, with NATO.  But all of a sudden, countries are looking to NATO to prevent that same type of Hybrid War operation on their soil.  NATO had purpose again.

As we have previously discussed, there were other things happening that proved that Russia and NATO were cooperating prior to Maidan.     But war in Eastern Europe once again set the table for aggressive negotiations.

[msmobyone]

It is humorous how some only want to see what they want to see, and ignore, and fuss about anything that doesn't coincide with their warped world view!


Fathertime!

No irony spotted....?...)Really ?)

[mendeleyev]

It is humorous how some only want to see what they want to see

There is a very big difference between someone who has experienced the life, and a person who has opinions but no experience in the subject.

You are right, I do SEE.

You have yet to do that.

[fathertime]

You are right, I do SEE.

You have yet to do that.

I SEE too!  And what I see is that your earlier quoted post didn't make logical sense, you have had opportunities to explain it further, but what I SEE currently is that instead of doing that, you are in essence saying that I shouldn't be commenting on what you said.   That can be called deflection. 


So how does what amounted to a temporary NATO military base in Russia, which provided Russia real benefits, prove that the West isn't aggressive or surrounding Russia?  I SEE flawed logic in what you said, but perhaps you are holding back a more rational explanation. 




Fathertime!