The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[Gator]

In the latest turn of events, investigators are discovering planted parts of Ukrainian fighter jets at the scene of the MH17.   

.... a new high for ludicrous.  And another sign of disrespect for the victims. 

[Shadow]

.... a new high for ludicrous.  And another sign of disrespect for the victims.

Provided it is true. I do not doubt Jone, however as you may understand any piece of news regarding MH17 is immediately published here in the Netherlands. As I did not find this in any Dutch souce, it seems a wild rumour.

Unlike that Kiev troops are now fighting and attacking the area of the disaster.

[Doll]

Unlike that Kiev troops are now fighting and attacking the area of the disaster.

Against Poroshenko's order

[fathertime]

Why is the WW III thread inoperative?

Can you link me to the WWIII thread?  I can't find it.

....Is this really too far fetched or much closer to home? If so, for what really? Are fat appetite to interfere in everyone's  sovereignty?
Let's see Libya is in turmoil, Egypt still is in turmoil, Israel/Gaza, Syria (maybe even Lebanon), Iraq, Sierra Leoni, Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myannmar, Venezuela, & Sudan. Why the heck did we have to fcok in Ukraine. Must we really?

We already have ebola in Sudan and now have the black plague in China...It must really be time for a serious mankind purge.....

Dangit! How can I forget bout Nigeria!?!? Oh and of course, the other doozie, North Korea, LOL.

http://news.msn.com/world/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-strike-on-white-house
 

We (the USA), actually facilitated the assassination of Khadafy.   With that sort of precedent set, anything is possible with Ukraine. 


Ukraine can choose to fight or negotiate on mostly Russian terms.  They appeared to have made their choice, we shall see how bad it all gets. 


Still no official word about what Putin specifically wanted from Ukraine.


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

That's actually the thread *Washington wants WW III*. The thread opens up but when I click on Muzh's post (or page 3), it doesn't work for some reason.

BTW- I accidentally *modified* the thread you quoted. Didn't mean to and 3 of the videos I posted I accidentally took out. 

[fathertime]

That's actually the thread *Washington wants WW III*. The thread opens up but when I click on Muzh's post (or page 3), it doesn't work for some reason.

BTW- I accidentally *modified* the thread you quoted. Didn't mean to and 3 of the videos I posted I accidentally took out. 

Thanks...I can't open that thread either...something seems to be fouled.


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

We (the USA), actually facilitated the assassination of Khadafy.   With that sort of precedent set, anything is possible with Ukraine. 

He deserved it.  Reagan tried to kill him in 1986 after the Berlin night club bombing.  Then came Pan Am - Lockerbie in 1988.  So Gaddafi deserved to be assassinated. 

As usual, remove a tyrant only to become replaced by turmoil and a multitude of tyrants of a different persuasion. 


Gaddafi later terminated his nuclear program.  Most contend he did that to gain favor with the West, needing access to their markets.  I assert he did that so that he would not become a target of an Al Qaeda overthrow - Al Qaeda would do anything to acquire nuclear weapons. 

Still no official word about what Putin specifically wanted from Ukraine.

If we don't know what Russia wants, how can you be sure Ukraine could deliver in a win-win solution.  Muzh has asked you several times - what is the "win" for Ukraine?

[I/O]

And another sign of disrespect for the victims.

Gator - that's the underlying and growing sentiment here. We've all about had a neck full of "who dunnits".
 
By the shots of puncture marks in the pieces of fuselage I saw on the news here, it's pretty obviously the result of a SAM (they work very much like a cluster bomb at about 50 - 100 yards from the target). Who pulled the trigger (which clearly requires a considerable team, planning and logistical support) is actually of much less concern to me, I'd just like them all to back up for a week and let the independents get the bodies out - given the stance both sides have taken, we are never going to ascertain, with any degree of certainty, who actually fired but you'd be pretty naive to imagine the Uki gov't forces would be so stupid when they have (allegedly) no air opposition that needs taking down. And....if they were proved to have done so, would risk any international support (which in fact is little more than huffing and puffing at this point) they may have garnered so far.   

[Gator]

...I'd just like them all to back up for a week and let the independents get the bodies out

Supposedly the Ukrainian army has flanked the separatists starting at Donetsk all the way to the Russian border.  Donetsk is still under rebel control, and the crash site is in the way of a complete  encirclement  of Donetsk.  So your term "them all" is accurate because both sides are engaged around the crash site for an important push.

Not all of the Ukrainians have been indifferent.  The local village people were very touched by the crash.  The women particularly  have shown great respect with prayers, flowers, tributes, etc.   The local men have helped; there were news clips of the miners searching last week for bodies.

[Gator]

Why is the WW III thread inoperative?

....Is this really too far fetched or much closer to home? If so, for what really? Are fat appetite to interfere in everyone's  sovereignty?
Let's see Libya is in turmoil, Egypt still is in turmoil, Israel/Gaza, Syria (maybe even Lebanon), Iraq, Sierra Leoni, Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myannmar, Venezuela, & Sudan. Why the heck did we have to fcok in Ukraine. Must we really?

We already have ebola in Sudan and now have the black plague in China...It must really be time for a serious mankind purge.....

Dangit! How can I forget bout Nigeria!?!? Oh and of course, the other doozie, North Korea, LOL.

http://news.msn.com/world/n-korea-threatens-nuclear-strike-on-white-house

In the meantime, our CIC is much too busy on a fund & fun raising...Rome's burning and the boy is out partying on the westcoast. Love it!!!

Your list omits perhaps the most significant country - Iran.  There we had a pro-western tyrant dictator (the Shah) in our pocket, only for Jimmy Carter to drop him like a piece of kaka. 

Although we are not complicit in all of the countries making your list, there is a need for POTUS to extinguish some fires.   

[I/O]

Not all of the Ukrainians have been indifferent.  The local village people were very touched by the crash.  The women particularly  have shown great respect with prayers, flowers, tributes, etc.   The local men have helped; there were news clips of the miners searching last week for bodies.

You're right - I've noticed that. Kind of reminded me of kindness shown to beaten German troops by everyday Russian womenfolk during WWII.
 
By all of them, I was referring to the direct combatants

[fathertime]

He deserved it.  Reagan tried to kill him in 1986 after the Berlin night club bombing.  Then came Pan Am - Lockerbie in 1988.  So Gaddafi deserved to be assassinated. 

As usual, remove a tyrant only to become replaced by turmoil and a multitude of tyrants of a different persuasion. 


 

I don’t think we aided in the assassination of Ghadafi for that reason, but IF these events (which Libya later took responsibility for and paid billions in damages for)are the criteria for assassinating a leader of a country, then our leader among many others could be on that list. 
 
You seem rather blasé about the ‘turmoil’ in Libya….but less so in Ukraine, of course I understand your bias regarding Ukraine but that doesn’t make this event very much different than we (The USA) have already been promoting elsewhere.   We aided rebels and eventually took out Khadafi, who happened to be a Russian ally.  Russia has been rather mild in comparison TO THIS POINT.  I continue to feel that it would be a better move for Ukraine to negotiate (presuming that is possible) with Russia, as I believe that Russia will step up until it gets what it wants….just as we did in Libya...and the death toll could be very high.     

If we don't know what Russia wants, how can you be sure Ukraine could deliver in a win-win solution.  Muzh has asked you several times - what is the "win" for Ukraine?

Who said I ‘was sure’?  V. Putin has stated what he wanted regarding the federation.  Regardless of if it is right or not,  Poroshenko hasn’t confirmed or denied what Putin stated publicly....I'm asserting that he would have stated Putin's wishes/demands publicly if they were outrageous at it would have strengthened his position.    I've stated numerous times what I believe the ‘win’ could be for Ukraine...as time passes and the stakes change, less of a loss can be construed as a win...especially compared to what it appears is looming. 
[size=78%]  [/size][/size] Fathertime! [size=78%]

[Gator]

 
You seem rather blasé about the ‘turmoil’ in Libya….but less so in Ukraine, of course I understand your bias regarding Ukraine but that doesn’t make this event very much different than we (The USA) have already been promoting elsewhere.   

I am not blasé about Libya.  The Benghazi killing of our ambassador and three cohorts upset me, especially how it was handled by POTUS and Hillary.    To lose an ambassador is more serious than losing a 4-star general.   

I do not have the time to research Libya, and I refuse to form a position based on a a less than one-minute news broadcast about Libya.  Plus RWD is not the place to discuss Libya. 

There are too many hotspots such as Libya.  Each is different with different implications.  The world is so embroiled that it has been a coon's age since the Federal deficit received any serious coverage. 

Bias regarding Ukraine?  I am outnumbered in my home. 

[jone]

I am not blasé about Libya.  The Benghazi killing of our ambassador and three cohorts upset me, especially how it was handled by POTUS and Hillary.    To lose an ambassador is more serious than losing a 4-star general.   

I do not have the time to research Libya, and I refuse to form a position based on a a less than one-minute news broadcast about Libya.  Plus RWD is not the place to discuss Libya. 

There are too many hotspots such as Libya.  Each is different with different implications.  The world is so embroiled that it has been a coon's age since the Federal deficit received any serious coverage. 

Bias regarding Ukraine?  I am outnumbered in my home.

That's because she gets two votes.  One for her and one for you.

[southernX]

FT  Who said I ‘was sure’?  V. Putin has stated what he wanted regarding the federation.  Regardless of if it is right or not,  Poroshenko hasn’t confirmed or denied what Putin stated publicly....I'm asserting that he would have stated Putin's wishes/demands publicly if they were outrageous at it would have strengthened his position.    I've stated numerous times what I believe the ‘win’ could be for Ukraine...as time passes and the stakes change, less of a loss can be construed as a win...especially compared to what it appears is looming. 

FT again id suggest you read more , poroshenko has stated a federation is not acceptable , he has agreed to more autonomy within the oblasts of sorts, but not federation as putin wishes ,
and no , you can find your own links to check that out , lol if you wish to actually know and understand poroshenkos stated position as part of the ceasfire negotiations etc etc for a peacefull resolution to this


one question no one seems to ask is if as putin states he is not resposible for this  conflict and does not support it why does he not close the russian border with the southeast of ukraine ??  and why should he[RUSSIA ] be a senior player at the negotiating table ?

SX

[fathertime]

I am not blasé about Libya.  The Benghazi killing of our ambassador and three cohorts upset me, especially how it was handled by POTUS and Hillary.    To lose an ambassador is more serious than losing a 4-star general.   
 

Well Gator, I wasn't speaking about the American's killed...The turmoil I was talking about the 1000's of dead Libyans.

I do not have the time to research Libya, and I refuse to form a position based on a a less than one-minute news broadcast about Libya.  Plus RWD is not the place to discuss Libya. 

There are too many hotspots such as Libya.  Each is different with different implications.  The world is so embroiled that it has been a coon's age since the Federal deficit received any serious coverage. 

Well, things like Libya and Syria may not seem important to you in regards to Ukraine, BUT it is highly likely they are very important to the Russians.  Although almost everybody here likes to leave that perspective out, I am holding that they (The Russians) probably feel completely entitled to do as they want with Ukraine, as they probably think that is what we (The USA) have been doing in other countries, and nobody stopped us.  To say that subjects such as Libya are off limits to discuss as it pertains to the situation in Ukraine is to take an important explanation off the table.   I don't think a person can compartmentalize the two countries and conflicts and have the proper perspective to take a strong position for/against Russia, it is all intertwined...IMO.

Bias regarding Ukraine?  I am outnumbered in my home. 

Well then perhaps it is good you discuss your viewpoints here, rather than with the wife.


Fathertime! 

[jone]

Ukraine has now mobilized almost its entire national forces.  That full mobilization takes place over the next thirty days.  My guess is that they will mop up Donetsk and Lugansk within the next month unless Russia comes over.  I would also guess that they will create a tremendous force and position it right next to Crimea.  Then, I would guess that they will do everything possible to obtain US weaponry.

Anyone who thinks that this war is over with the displacement of Russian terrorists from Eastern Ukraine is not thinking straight.  I don't know of any Ukrainian who isn't willing to press for the removal of Russia from Krim.

Of interest, I don't think we've heard one peep from the Crimean contingent who used to be on here stating that Ukraine would cease to exist within six months.

[fathertime]

FT again id suggest you read more , poroshenko has stated a federation is not acceptable , he has agreed to more autonomy within the oblasts of sorts, but not federation as putin wishes ,
and no , you can find your own links to check that out , lol if you wish to actually know and understand poroshenkos stated position as part of the ceasfire negotiations etc etc for a peacefull resolution to this


one question no one seems to ask is if as putin states he is not resposible for this  conflict and does not support it why does he not close the russian border with the southeast of ukraine ??  and why should he[RUSSIA ] be a senior player at the negotiating table ?

SX

SX

Yes SX, I realize that Poroshenko doesn't agree about the federation or a deal probably would have already been done.  He is in charge of Ukraine.  He is seeing the consequences to his people, and knows what could happen down the line and it could be horrific. He is taking a big risk.   


  Again, he has not refuted how Putin has characterized his wants.  Why does Russia get a seat at the negotiating table?  I guess because they are Russia.  Why has the USA had seats at other sovereign nations negotiating tables?  It isn't much different than the animal kingdom I guess, so we (the USA) are acting a little hypocritical IMO....we behave like an animal and then get huffy-puffy when another animal does the same sorta thing. 


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

Well Gator, I wasn't speaking about the American's killed...The turmoil I was talking about the 1000's of dead Libyans.

If the number of deaths bother you, you should look to other parts of the world, particularly Africa where undernourishment, disease, armed conflict, etc. exact a large toll.   

Well, things like Libya and Syria may not seem important to you....

All of the Middle East is important.  Please summarize your solution for stabilizing the entirety of the Middle East.   If you can convince me of a viable solution, I will interact with you more.   Keep in mind that I lived in Iran and Egypt for two years while working for the UN.   

      .....in regards to Ukraine, BUT it is highly likely they are very important to the Russians.....I don't think a person can compartmentalize the two countries and conflicts and have the proper perspective to take a strong position for/against Russia, it is all intertwined...IMO.

While we have been critical of your thin understanding of the Big Picture in Ukraine, your understanding of Russian interests in Libya and Syria does give you a better understanding of the even Bigger Picture.   So we now appoint you official head of the RWD Libya/Syria Bureau. 

Given your expertise, please enlighten us about Russia's goals in Libya and Syria.  It would not surprise me that Russia is involved in Syria and Libya not with a humanitarian effort but  with the dark goal of restricting natural gas shipments to Europe, thereby propping up the price of Russia's second largest export to this captive customer.  Maybe Russia's real reason for wanting Ukraine is to curtail UA plans now underway to frack the large shale formation in eastern Ukraine.  If true, maybe the Russians were behind the attack of our Benghazi consulate knowing that Americans were brokering a deal to send to Syrian rebels the weapons captured in Libya.   

[fathertime]

If the number of deaths bother you, you should look to other parts of the world, particularly Africa where undernourishment, disease, armed conflict, etc. exact a large toll.   

.

We are not responsible for all the world's problems.  I’m saying that WE (The USA) have caused much of this havoc in Libya.  Given that, it is hypocritical for us to wail about Russia doing something similar in Ukraine.

All of the Middle East is important.  Please summarize your solution for stabilizing the entirety of the Middle East.   If you can convince me of a viable solution, I will interact with you more.   Keep in mind that I lived in Iran and Egypt for two years while working for the UN.   

While we have been critical of your thin understanding of the Big Picture in Ukraine, your understanding of Russian interests in Libya and Syria does give you a better understanding of the even Bigger Picture.   So we now appoint you official head of the RWD Libya/Syria Bureau. 

Given your expertise, please enlighten us about Russia's goals in Libya and Syria.  It would not surprise me that Russia is involved in Syria and Libya not with a humanitarian effort but  with the dark goal of restricting natural gas shipments to Europe, thereby propping up the price of Russia's second largest export to this captive customer.  Maybe Russia's real reason for wanting Ukraine is to curtail UA plans now underway to frack the large shale formation in eastern Ukraine.  If true, maybe the Russians were behind the attack of our Benghazi consulate knowing that Americans were brokering a deal to send to Syrian rebels the weapons captured in Libya.   

You are free to interact or not to interact.  I didn't claim to have a solution to the entire Middle East crisis, besides that is not the subject anyway. Regarding Ukraine, I continue to think that Ukraine should be negotiating creating a federation if that is still possible.  It would likely end the bloodshed and everyone could attempt to move on.  I think quite a few of the people here (including you) are biased enough to where you have blinded yourself to the potential real solutions. …be that as it may, another temporary solution is for Ukraine to fight its way out of it…I’d be for that, if I thought it would work, but I don’t see it as a solution.  It will create lots of dead people, and a potentially wider conflict which is what I'd like to see NOT happen. 


Fathertime! 

[Faux Pas]

All of the Middle East is important.  Please summarize your solution for stabilizing the entirety of the Middle East.   If you can convince me of a viable solution, I will interact with you more.   Keep in mind that I lived in Iran and Egypt for two years while working for the UN.   

While that is quite impressive and does provide you with a qualified insight, it hardly triumphs FT's credentials. I believe he slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

[fathertime]

While that is quite impressive and does provide you with a qualified insight, it hardly triumphs FT's credentials. I believe he slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

Very good fp..attack the poster rather then expressing a legit pov on the issue.  I'm accustomed to that when people are angry about a differing position.  Perhaps you realize that you are incapable of thinking things through well enough to propose possible solutions.

I continue to hold that Ukraine should be negoiating in part because it will lead to a better outcome than fighting.

Fathertime!

[Muzh]

While we have been critical of your thin understanding of the Big Picture in Ukraine, your understanding of Russian interests in Libya and Syria does give you a better understanding of the even Bigger Picture.   So we now appoint you official head of the RWD Libya/Syria Bureau. 

You throw a wet noddle against the wall and sometimes it sticks. 


That doesn't mean he said anything of consequence except some sound bites that were pleasing to your ears.


And then you think I'm being harsh but check out gems like this one:

  Again, he has not refuted how Putin has characterized his wants.  Why does Russia get a seat at the negotiating table?  I guess because they are Russia.  Why has the USA had seats at other sovereign nations negotiating tables?  It isn't much different than the animal kingdom I guess, so we (the USA) are acting a little hypocritical IMO....we behave like an animal and then get huffy-puffy when another animal does the same sorta thing.  Fathertime!

Let me know if you need help locating the irony.

[Muzh]

Very good fp..attack the poster rather then expressing a legit pov on the issue.  I'm accustomed to that when people are angry about a differing position.  Perhaps you realize that you are incapable of thinking things through well enough to propose possible solutions.

I continue to hold that Ukraine should be negoiating in part because it will lead to a better outcome than fighting.

Fathertime!

LMFAO


Well, please. Give us something with substance.

[jone]

Let me know if you need help locating the irony.[/font]

A little to subtle, sir.