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Author Topic: The Propaganda War  (Read 407937 times)

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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1400 on: January 30, 2015, 08:54:59 PM »
That may be true of the Americans here, but it's not universal.  I, for example, always opposed the Iraq war.  I believe Muzh did, too.


But, this isn't about the U.S., which AFAIK, unlike Russia, has not invaded a country with a democratically elected government, and one which has a right to decide its own fate.  It is about Russia's interference in the Ukrainian state.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1401 on: January 30, 2015, 08:58:50 PM »

But, this isn't about the U.S., which AFAIK, unlike Russia, has not invaded a country with a democratically elected government, and one which has a right to decide its own fate.  It is about Russia's interference in the Ukrainian state.
..and I'm convinced that Russia is reacting to a world that has seen numerous leaders that were friendly with Russia being toppled with help from the USA.  So I continue to believe that this event in Ukraine can not be held out on it's own, it is part of a much bigger picture...and when one looks at the much bigger picture it is better understood.


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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1402 on: January 30, 2015, 09:05:27 PM »
Like who?  Every leader "toppled" deserved it, as he was either a dictator who committed horrendous crimes against his own people, or a common thief.


The US was not involved in the toppling of Yanukovych.  He did that to himself.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1403 on: January 30, 2015, 09:15:28 PM »
  Every leader "toppled" deserved it, as he was either a dictator who committed horrendous crimes against his own people, or a common thief.


I don't think that we should be selectively making that call from across oceans...but if we continue to do so, other nations will too...
Libya and Perhaps soon Syria...Iraq....sanctions in Iran, with the intent on changing their leadership.  Russia may feel the need to start arming nations it has good relations with to prevent further issues....that is where this can wind up going if you think ahead 3-4 moves. 


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Offline Taz

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1404 on: January 30, 2015, 09:31:09 PM »
FT- Russian has often armed nations, typically dictators or puppet governments under its control. Generally it has supported governments that are more oppressive than most. Not to say the US hasn't done some of that but normally Russia has supported the fascist or communistic countries.


Having lived in socialistic and communistic countries as well as democratic, I'll obviously take true democracy over the previous ones. I lived in Russia during the cold war period and later. As bad as Russia was in some ways then, it actually seemed slightly freer then than now. Putin is a straight up dictator, no point even calling him a president. The idea of voting in Russia is almost laughable. Your vote counts if you rubber stamp Putin's agenda. All dissent is shut down. It reminds me of the first time I saw the KGB in action years ago when I was staying in the Intourist Hotel in Moscow not long after it was built. I never saw a person so frightened in my life (at least up until that point) as when 2 KGB agents drug a Russian man from the bar at the hotel. He was kicking and screaming and obviously frightened for his life.


I think one thing should be clear about all of this. Russia's INTENT here is nothing positive. It is totally about domination and invasion of Ukraine under false pretenses. Russians weren't really at risk and even if they were, in incredibly small numbers. Ukraine's intent has always just been to defend it's own sovereignty. Every nation has a right to do so. What Russia is doing is illegal, immoral and unjust and must be stopped. No matter how you spin it, it is wrong.
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Offline AC

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1405 on: January 30, 2015, 09:47:13 PM »
I think one thing should be clear about all of this. Russia's INTENT here is nothing positive. It is totally about domination and invasion of Ukraine under false pretenses. Russians weren't really at risk and even if they were, in incredibly small numbers. Ukraine's intent has always just been to defend it's own sovereignty. Every nation has a right to do so. What Russia is doing is illegal, immoral and unjust and must be stopped. No matter how you spin it, it is wrong.

And spin they do.  I never thought it would be possible to spin away reality with a totally made up version of an alternate reality, but that's exactly what they've done.

I find it very tragic that NATO and the USA are apparently going to do next to nothing if an invasion happens.  I guess the only hope is that Mr. Putin will not go through with it because he's got to know the next level of sanctions will likely cause a total collapse of his economy.  Will even this possibility stop him?  Will Poroshenko offer him some sort of a deal that makes him happy?  Stay tuned for "As the worm turns".

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1406 on: January 30, 2015, 10:11:59 PM »
FT- Russian has often armed nations, typically dictators or puppet governments under its control. Generally it has supported governments that are more oppressive than most. Not to say the US hasn't done some of that but normally Russia has supported the fascist or communistic countries.


Having lived in socialistic and communistic countries as well as democratic, I'll obviously take true democracy over the previous ones. I lived in Russia during the cold war period and later. As bad as Russia was in some ways then, it actually seemed slightly freer then than now. Putin is a straight up dictator, no point even calling him a president. The idea of voting in Russia is almost laughable. Your vote counts if you rubber stamp Putin's agenda. All dissent is shut down. It reminds me of the first time I saw the KGB in action years ago when I was staying in the Intourist Hotel in Moscow not long after it was built. I never saw a person so frightened in my life (at least up until that point) as when 2 KGB agents drug a Russian man from the bar at the hotel. He was kicking and screaming and obviously frightened for his life.


I think one thing should be clear about all of this. Russia's INTENT here is nothing positive. It is totally about domination and invasion of Ukraine under false pretenses. Russians weren't really at risk and even if they were, in incredibly small numbers. Ukraine's intent has always just been to defend it's own sovereignty. Every nation has a right to do so. What Russia is doing is illegal, immoral and unjust and must be stopped. No matter how you spin it, it is wrong.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts TAZ....one thing though, what you call 'spin' may actually be quite true...and if it is then it you that is being spun.  Some insist it is a very simple case of Russian aggression, I continue to not see it that way...at this point I don't think there are any good guys...and we delude ourselves by thinking we are...I think the best we can hope for is a peace where all get something, but not everything.


Fathertime! 
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1407 on: January 30, 2015, 10:27:40 PM »
Quote
You do all the pro-nazi propaganda you feel you must do.

Natural, I'll let you do that. It seems more up your alley.

If you know the definition of Nazi, then feel free to link where I have supported such.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 10:31:14 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1408 on: January 30, 2015, 10:30:07 PM »
Quote
So what facts are facts that are twisted?  What are the quotes that are misrepresented? I'm curious.

FT, I already suggested classes. Go get an education.

I already pointed out areas of misrepresentation, but I have begun to doubt your comprehension abilities.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 10:32:33 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline Taz

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1409 on: January 30, 2015, 10:30:50 PM »
I think I have a pretty good handle on it. I had an apartment in Crimea. My in-laws are from Crimea and Russia. I was at Maidan for several months when it started. My ex is from Eastern Ukraine and I spent a ton of time in Donetsk and Mariupol (not to mention all over Ukraine and Russia both and lived extensively in Russia).


I would say in many ways I have a better handle on it that most Ukrainians or Russians. Many just read the news, whereas I have often "lived" the news. I was there when Yanukovich first started to use tractors and the like to tear down the barricades. i was out it in the streets then. I talked with the people that were there. I stood along side them and saw the aggression against peaceful protesters. I watched in shock when I later saw people dead in the streets by Berkut.


So for what I saw wasn't spin. I saw it with my own eyes and talked to the people. I am not an armchair quarterback as the saying goes. I live life as I not a spectator. My father in law was a Russian Army office and he is in shock with what Russia is doing. My ex's father and grandfather were both ex Russian army officers and they are both shocked as well. They can't understand why Russia is invading it's brother. They are all ethnic Russians but living in Ukraine now. They have all been active duty as well so they understand, like I, what war is all about when you actually have to fight it.


So for me there is no spin of what I've seen. The only real spin I've seen is from the Russian press which has no ability to speak against Putin or they'll either end up dead or out of business.
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1410 on: January 30, 2015, 11:05:15 PM »
Quote
Yo're supposed to be so damn clever mendelevtev (yet provide only trash-Putin stuff)

Natural, as far as your claim that I ONLY trash Putin....did you write that simply as an angry reaction?

ONLY Putin bashing. Hmm....

Vietnam Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347143#msg347143

Netherlands/Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347024#msg347024

Putin China: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347623#msg347623

South Korea/Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347630#msg347630

Mendeleyev on Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347658#msg347658

Mendeleyev on Russia with Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347777#msg347777

Mendeleyev on North Korea and Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg348015#msg348015

Mendeleyev ciritical of US foreign policy with Russia: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg357841#msg357841

Mendeleyev on new USA Ambassador to Russia: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg371045#msg371045

Mendeleyev defends Putin on Super bowl ring story: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337104#msg337104

More of Mendeleyev defends Putin super bowl ring: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337890#msg337890

Edward Snowden's arrival in Moscow: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337111#msg337111

FEMA and Russia team up: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337812#msg337812

Defending Putin on missile defense: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg339855#msg339855

Mendeleyev defends Putin on Syria: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg341598#msg341598

Mendeleyev with Putin in Vladivostok: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg341974#msg341974

At G20 Mendeleyev touts Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg342249#msg342249

There is a lot more, so if you need, I can keep giving you links.


Natural, tell me again how I supposedly only "trash Putin."
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 11:15:08 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1411 on: January 30, 2015, 11:54:45 PM »
FT, I already suggested classes. Go get an education.

I already pointed out areas of misrepresentation, but I have begun to doubt your comprehension abilities.


In this particular case it is YOU that isn't comprehending.  I've reviewed my original comments that you had a problem with...and I'm not seeing why you are grumbling about apparently numerous comments I had made. 


Here is the article again:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ukraine-exposed-kievs-authoritarianism-12151
and here are my original comments that you have a problem with pertaining[size=78%] to that article. [/size]
[/size]
[/size]
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this article which seems to be criticizing Ukraine's leadership on several levels and Poroshenko is in some jeopardy now from the far right groups.  The article sharply criticized a Ukraine official for speaking in Germany and saying that during WWII The Soviets invaded both Germany and Ukraine, which is a history rewrite. Well anyway, it appears to be a factual, and surprising article....and comes from what appears to be a stellar source (magazine)!  :D   Fathertime!
[size=78%]


So where have I slanted all the facts?  Are you sure you just don't want to hear a loud voice against what you seem to be for? 


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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1412 on: January 31, 2015, 12:04:03 AM »
I think I have a pretty good handle on it. I had an apartment in Crimea. My in-laws are from Crimea and Russia. I was at Maidan for several months when it started. My ex is from Eastern Ukraine and I spent a ton of time in Donetsk and Mariupol (not to mention all over Ukraine and Russia both and lived extensively in Russia).


I would say in many ways I have a better handle on it that most Ukrainians or Russians. Many just read the news, whereas I have often "lived" the news. I was there when Yanukovich first started to use tractors and the like to tear down the barricades. i was out it in the streets then. I talked with the people that were there. I stood along side them and saw the aggression against peaceful protesters. I watched in shock when I later saw people dead in the streets by Berkut.


So for what I saw wasn't spin. I saw it with my own eyes and talked to the people. I am not an armchair quarterback as the saying goes. I live life as I not a spectator. My father in law was a Russian Army office and he is in shock with what Russia is doing. My ex's father and grandfather were both ex Russian army officers and they are both shocked as well. They can't understand why Russia is invading it's brother. They are all ethnic Russians but living in Ukraine now. They have all been active duty as well so they understand, like I, what war is all about when you actually have to fight it.


So for me there is no spin of what I've seen. The only real spin I've seen is from the Russian press which has no ability to speak against Putin or they'll either end up dead or out of business.


Don't get me wrong Taz, I'm sure you have a good handle of what is one the ground there.  The spin I'm referring isn't in regards to events today....but rather over a couple decades....We shouldn't expect other countries to sit by and watch us (The US) gain more and more worldwide control...we have been using whatever means necessary and lots of people are dying...other nations will do the same....some similarities to what all the colonial empires were doing a hundreds of years ago...no good guys on the playing field.


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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1413 on: January 31, 2015, 12:31:12 AM »
Quote
So where have I slanted all the facts? 

I said that the article did. Are you saying that you wrote the article?
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1414 on: January 31, 2015, 12:36:25 AM »
I said that the article did. Are you saying that you wrote the article?


hehehe...NO...


In any event... we are bound to disagree on whatever story I link next so we can pick it up from there


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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1415 on: January 31, 2015, 07:32:46 AM »
Quote
In any event... we are bound to disagree on whatever story I link next so we can pick it up from there

True. It is frustrating for me to see someone with firm opinions based on scant knowledge--and that often misapplied by your sources. I would hope that someday you will visit both countries. Both are worth the time and effort.
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1416 on: January 31, 2015, 08:43:45 AM »
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this little article over at the Huffington Post that I agreed with.  Some of the statements I strongly agree with, like this one:


The exercise of restraint in the aftermath of the military intervention in South Ossetia in 2008, as Putin did not extend military efforts to the entire Caucasus, indicates that the Kremlin is careful not to conflate a pro-Russian alignment with a desire to unite with Russia. The economic costs and geopolitical fallout of enforcing a Russian occupation on a population that does not desire it, explicitly contradicts Putin's strategic interests, which have been defined by a defensive desire to protect his sphere of influence from what he perceives to be aggressive NATO encroachment.


In the closing paragraph another point is made that makes sense to me, and that is that the Western intervention has made things worse:


Thus far, prospects for a peaceful resolution to the Ukraine crisis have been undermined by the continuous stream of violence, and deep-seated distrust that has undermined cooperation between all parties involved. A self-reinforcing cycle of violence has been created in eastern Ukraine and distorted illusions have been formulated about Putin's intentions in other parts of Eastern Europe. This speculation overlooks the compelling evidence that Russia is on a trajectory of economic and demographic decline, the West's misplaced fears of further Russian aggression will only increase the likelihood of a persistent and potentially escalated conflict in Ukraine.

The article supports the position that the Russian operation intended to be limited, and appears to be a well-reasoned article from a credible source so here is the link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-ramani/why-the-wests-strategy-of_b_6565496.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


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Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1417 on: January 31, 2015, 09:07:01 AM »
...many people here are very quick to criticize Putin and Russia and very quick to forgive and forget the USA and our transgressions (which have killed 100's of 1000's now).



Russia today was similar to America a couple hundred years ago. We wanted land whether it was Indian or Mexican. We took it or bought it. America today is different. There are international laws and America has become the primary enforcer of those laws. American troops are in over 130 countries because we're invited there, not because we invaded.


People around the world are quick to forgive America's transgressions because we've change. If we invade a country, it's not to claim their land but to remove a leader that doesn't play by international rules and replace him with peaceful leaders. If America did exactly what Russia is doing to Ukraine, America would receive much more criticism than Russia because we are held to higher standards. Russia is held to much lower standards and that is why many are not surprised on what they're doing now.


I find it very tragic that NATO and the USA are apparently going to do next to nothing if an invasion happens.  I guess the only hope is that Mr. Putin will not go through with it because he's got to know the next level of sanctions will likely cause a total collapse of his economy.  Will even this possibility stop him?  Will Poroshenko offer him some sort of a deal that makes him happy?  Stay tuned for "As the worm turns".



I'm sure EU and America has talked to Poroshenko behind closed doors about letting Crimea go and holding elections in East Ukraine that Russia can rig to peacefully give half Ukraine to Russia. It would be political suicide for Poroshenko and the Rada to do that but that is better than losing everything.


Poroshenko shouldn't believe he should receive help for free. If he were wise, he would tell America that there are hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars of natural resources off the coast of Crimea and he will handsomely pay America if we came to the rescue. America doesn't have a bond with Ukraine as we do with Canada and the UK. We weren't major trading partners and we never connected with their corrupt government. There are good people in Ukraine who are like us and deserve help. America shouldn't spill their blood for free though. If Ukrainians want something, they have to learn to give something.


I suspect Poroshenko already offered something when he came to America to give a speech in front of Congress. Congress in returned approved $350 million worth of help. Still not enough to beat Russia and still not something Obama is willing to act on. Poroshenko needs to go back and beg/negotiate some more.


Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1418 on: January 31, 2015, 11:53:45 AM »

Russia today was similar to America a couple hundred years ago. Blah blah blah



That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. Russia is like colonial America? Are you dumb?
Please look at the background of both.
A land grab to justify your rationale? DUH!


And if we invade a country is to kick out a baddie and we don't want anything from that?
Jesus H Christ. You are blind also.


I'm sure EU and America has talked to Poroshenko blah blah blah


Contradicting yourself about the holiness of the US cause?


Yikes
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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1419 on: January 31, 2015, 12:15:16 PM »

Russia is like colonial America? Are you dumb?
Please look at the background of both.



Are you dumb? Colonial America is approximately from 1492-1763, not the couple of hundred of years ago I'm referring to.


That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.



Everyday someone seems to shock you with the most idiotic thing you've ever heard. Figure out where the malfunction is.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1420 on: January 31, 2015, 12:28:37 PM »


Good to know you learned something new today Muhz. Now you understand I'm referring to how America, as a young nation, behaved, not how the colonies in the Americas behaved. BTW, Americans then supported growth as do the Russians today.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1421 on: January 31, 2015, 12:42:33 PM »

Good to know you learned something new today Muhz. Now you understand I'm referring to how America, as a young nation, behaved, not how the colonies in the Americas behaved. BTW, Americans then supported growth as do the Russians today.


Dude, who lived in America in 1492?


Also, what was one of the main reasons the colonies circa (I hope you know this word) 1772 decided for a separation from the crown? Taxes don't count, everybody knows that one.


Bet you don't know.


And I was NOT born here. Shame on you.


To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1422 on: January 31, 2015, 12:58:26 PM »
Boe, see what I mean?


They hide when they have to provide facts.  :rolleyes:
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1423 on: January 31, 2015, 01:04:09 PM »
Dude, who lived in America in 1492?



Don't agree? Register your complaint with Americaslibrary.gov who's Colonial America timeline starts in 1492. Go and tell them they wrote the most idiotic thing you've ever read.


http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/colonial/jb_colonial_subj.html




They hide when they have to provide facts.  :rolleyes:



Replying 20 minutes after your post is considered hiding? I've got other things to do besides providing facts for people. Google makes fact finding easy when I do get around to it. Gives me answers in seconds.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1424 on: January 31, 2015, 01:12:00 PM »

Don't agree? Register your complaint with Americaslibrary.gov who's Colonial America timeline starts in 1492. Go and tell them they wrote the most idiotic thing you've ever read.


http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/colonial/jb_colonial_subj.html




Replying 20 minutes after your post is considered hiding? I've got other things to do besides providing facts for people. Google makes fact finding easy when I do get around to it. Gives me answers in seconds.


It took you 20 minutes to google that. Wow!


Still you didn't answer my questions.


But, I'll be nice to you.


Columbus landed in the Bahamas in 1492. NO European was in America in 1492.


And the other question what was one of the reasons for the revolution?


Click on this http://lmgtfy.com/?q=america+colonial+wanted+westward+expansion+but+the+king+did+not+allow


and go to the first link.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

 

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