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Author Topic: Antiques in Russia  (Read 112856 times)

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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Old banknote
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2008, 10:53:30 AM »
Olga, there only two possible conclusions: either your history is incomplete, or my bill is a piece of forgery ;D.

I don't know about a piece of  forgery, but even Bernatsky did not know about design of the bills and watermarks that were made by English artist till last time  :)

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2008, 10:54:49 AM »
Sandro, the bills 5 and 10 R of 1909 were printed in Russia (Printing Plant of Goznak). The design of the bills were made by Russian artists and etchers as Yakob Reihel (he also was a scientist and wrote the books in the sphere of Russian numismatology) and Perikl Ksidias. (I'm not sure about English spelling)
OK, but what makes them peculiar/unusual ? It's SO obvious, but I'll give a final hint:
Don't miss the forest for the trees ! ;D
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2008, 11:08:34 AM »
OK, but what makes them peculiar/unusual ? It's SO obvious, but I'll give a final hint:
Don't miss the forest for the trees ! ;D


Sandro, please don't "torture" me.  :D My uncle collected old money and he wanted I to continue,   but my "love to the money" was not so strong as he hoped  :D  I loved my Babushka's collection of greeting cards more  :D

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2008, 11:19:41 AM »
Sandro, please don't "torture" me.  :D
Alright, their peculiarity is that they are not printed 'horizontally' but 'vertically', as is a poster/affiche, in other words they are readable holding their short-side up, unlike any other banknote I've ever seen ;).

Olga, you do NOT win my 1-Ruble prize :( ;D.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 11:26:05 AM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2008, 11:34:47 AM »
Alright, their peculiarity is that they are not printed 'horizontally' but 'vertically', as is a poster/affiche, in other words they are readable holding their short-side up, unlike any other banknote I've ever seen ;).

Olga, you do NOT win my 1-Ruble prize :( ;D.

 :)

1919

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2008, 11:48:42 AM »
OK, you have enough 'vertical' rubles not to miss my 'horizontal' one. They must have been using some odd wallets to hold them, maybe a clever NKVD ruse to uncover any residual bourgeois ?
"Papers AND wallet, tovarishch !" 8)
 
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2008, 12:09:01 PM »
1915

paper kopecks   :)

Offline BC

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2008, 12:15:10 PM »
:)

1919

Would make a nice deck of playing cards.  I'd buy.

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2008, 03:53:58 PM »
About the same age (1923) and size, Weimar Germany's MUCH more valuable, no-frills banknote Marks :D.
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2008, 04:01:34 PM »
5 000 000 000 Mark

OK. what people could buy?  :rolleyes2:

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2008, 04:27:49 PM »
5 000 000 000 Mark OK. what people could buy?  :rolleyes2:
A loaf of bread or a pack of cigarettes, probably.

When I was a kid, I had some German postage stamps from that period, overstamped in red 50,000,000 Marks IIRC. Inflation was so bad and runaway that they had no time to print new stamps with corrected values, they just overstamped the existing stock.

One of the reasons Hitler was eventually voted into power ;).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 04:34:41 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2008, 04:35:44 PM »
I guess German cashiers and especially book-kippers had a big problem with the endless lines of zeros

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2008, 04:45:18 PM »
I guess German cashiers and especially book-kippers had a big problem with the endless lines of zeros
They probably had some surreal dialogues like:

Bank Mgr.: "What's the time, Hans ?"
Teller: "3 o'clock, Herr Schmidt"
Bank Mgr.: "Gut, add another zero to your ledger columns." 
;D
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2008, 05:19:07 PM »
In the reign of Nikolas II the Finnish second-hand dealers were buying the 100R bills for 130 Marks each and after they were selling the bills to Swedish second-hand dealers for 200 Marks each  :) 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 05:23:53 PM by OlgaH »

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2008, 05:44:49 PM »
In the reign of Nikolas II the Finnish second-hand dealers were buying the 100R bills for 130 Marks each and after they were selling the bills to Swedish second-hand dealers for 200 Marks each
The Finns fooling the Swedish :o? A well-kept secret, we should tell Diverboy :D.

P.S.: copycat, I was the first to post the 100R bill, here (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7915.msg143716#msg143716) :( ;D.
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2008, 05:53:44 PM »
Oh, sorry Sandro... I would link to your "Katen'kas"  So now Dan's board has two Katen'kas (200 Tsar rubles  ;) )

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2008, 06:04:51 PM »
So now Dan's board has two Katen'kas (200 Tsar rubles)
I contributed a total of 116 R (plus 500 dubious ones, not to mention the billions of Marks), you only 106.56 R IINM. You're lagging behind in your donations ;).
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Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2008, 06:44:32 PM »
I contributed a total of 116 R (plus 500 dubious ones, not to mention the billions of Marks), you only 106.56 R IINM. You're lagging behind in your donations ;).

Sandro I see you are a good accountant and probably you don't know that the Great Father of the Soviet Nations took the accountant courses in his time and he kept his all-seeing loving eye on the accountants.

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2008, 06:55:40 PM »
OK  :)

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2011, 11:11:52 PM »
If the procedural part has already been answered then please accept my apologies.

My wife and I export art, hers and other artists. Art and antiques remain today in consideration as among those things which legally belong intellectually to all the Russian people and not just the property of an individual artist or craftsman. Therefore, as Lily indicated there is paperwork to produce, photos to document each piece, fees paid per export (if it is allowed for export) and procedures to be followed.

My brother is an antique dealer, he sells to malls and stores, and would LOVE to take some things out of the FSU if it were convenient and cost effective.

While anything over 50 years old is generally considered to be antique (that must include me!), the law on antiquities of the Russian Federation is that any item of historical and/or cultural value (including antiques, art works, musical instruments, books etc.) produced more than 100 years ago is prohibited and punishable by law. This excludes prior imported items shown on your customs declaration (if you brought something in then with proof you can take it out again).

Items more than 50 years old but less than 100 years old may (but not in every case) be exported after inspection and approval from the national Ministry of Culture. Art of any age is required to have approval although in many cases a receipt of some nice but obviously not of great importance art can slip thru in a suitcase. I've done it, but one must always remember that if inspected and caught, the Federal Customs Service (Russian Federation) language leaves no room for doubt--failure to declare means that you have certified by your actions that you possess nothing of value and if demonstrated otherwise the penalities can be severe. And in today's anti corruption mood an attempted bribe is a guarantee of a longer jail sentence or fine.

Items which are mandatory for declaration according to the law include:
Art
Antiques
Other cultural valuables (pictures, sculptures, icons, old coins, military decorations and medals, stamps and etc.)
Currency
Weapons/Ammunition
Radio-TV-Satellite-Communications equipment (Even a small shoulder held professional grade video camera coming in costs me 30% of the orginal purchased value over $2000--coming in, and going out if I failed to hold on to the original declaration upon arrival unless traveling on a journalist/diplomatic visa from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs).

We take Icons (not antique) out for personal use in our USA home and for family but those include a receipt of recent purchase from a church or monastery. Our good friend Sasha from Kyiv was prohibited from taking to the USA a old Samovar which he had received from an Uncle.


Here is the procedure for art and antiques:
- You must have a signed receipt from the seller proving your purchase (price, date, name and address of artist, etc)
- 3 colour photos must be made and taken to the Ministry of Culture-export office for each item.
- Customs forms and a form called TD-6 must be filled out in triplicate there for each piece/item.
- The art/antiques along with the photos and forms must be left at the Ministry for professional evaluation (usually takes 1/2 to 1 day)
- Upon approval, tax stamps must be purchased from the Bank of Russia. Usually only one Bank of Russia per city handles those stamps so usually you'll make it a "day trip" for buying the stamps once approval has been granted.

The above is generally, on routine art pieces, at best a 2 day process for 3-6 paintings. Add additional days for additional pieces.

(The goal of this process is to assure that your art, old artifacts such as icons, samovars, rugs, and antiques must have a certificate indicating that they have no historical value. That kind of kills the idea of exporting antiques for resale elsewhere.)


Next comes the Customs process on the day of departure from Russia:
- Arrive at the airport at least 4 hours before your flight.
- You must declare (Red Line) and have your paperwork copies, photos and stamps from the procedures above. This will be in duplicate as the Ministry of Culture office kept one copy of everything which was originally triplicate. Customs will keep one copy and the final copy is for the customs process upon arrival in your home country.
- Upon initial inspection a customs inspector will:
   a) Call the airport's resident Customs Art & Antiquities Inspector to the scene (this could take awhile).
   b) Call the Minsitry of Culture office to verify your document copies and photos (could also take awhile).

Hopefully this all can be done in no more than 2 hours because you still must go thru the other processes of checking in, Passport Control, etc. Don't cut it too close on time because they're in no hurry for you to take "national treasures" out of the country.

Once approved you'll proceed to the next steps of check in, etc. Keep the paperwork handy because you may be questioned on the contents of your luggage/packages several more times before boarding your plane.


Ministry of Culture:
In most cases the necessary documents can only be obtained in the city where the export will take place. For most Westerners that is either Moscow or St Petersburg.

Moscow
Tel: +7 (495) 629-2008
Малый Гнездниковский пер., (Little Gnezdhikovskiy, 7-6)
д. 7/6, стр. 1,2


St Petersburg
Tel: +7 (812)117-3496/5196/0302,
17 Malaya Morskaya St.

Email from anywhere: info@mkrf.ru

« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 07:04:57 AM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline SANDRO43

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Any Cyrillic lexicographers around ;)?
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2014, 04:55:29 PM »
As this thread deals with antiques, I thought it'd be best suited to my request for assistance.

Among the things I inherited from my Russian granny is this icon of Our Lady of Kazan (painted on wood, silver-framed, 12cm x 16 cm) - at least I can read KAZANSKII at bottom left:


The family story goes that it was a wedding present to my great-grandmother Elisaveta, an icon supposedly from the XVIIth century :-\ - but maybe that was the date of the original and not of this presumably later copy.

Coming to the point, its reverse side is covered in red velvet (now badly faded and discoloured) that bears an inscription not written in ink but impressed with some pointy tool (Attachment 2). I tried to manipulate the image to make the inscription more readable (Attachment 1), but cannot make much sense of it. 

Can anybody else with a keener eye for cursive Cyrillic read anything there? If the story is correct, at least my great grandmother's name should be in it, and maybe a date in the late 1880s.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 05:08:07 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2014, 05:35:39 PM »
1st line: 2 words
2nd line: 1 word
3rd line: 2 words, first definitely begins with Елис... so I am guessing it is Elisaveta, second word looks like begins with capital D, could be surname.
4th line: either one word or two written close to each other.
5th line: 2 words, both begins with capital letters, looks like it is name
6th line: not sure but guessing it is one word.

Calligraphy reminds me writings of old photos/pictures my grandma keeps.

I can make up some of the letters but not enough to read whole thing due to quality of photos. Any chance you can copy writing to your best ability to the piece of paper, take photo of it and upload here?

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2014, 05:45:10 PM »
3rd line: 2 words, first definitely begins with Елис... so I am guessing it is Elisaveta, second word looks like begins with capital D, could be surname.
Thank you for your efforts mA, her full name was Elisaveta Dimitrievna Deshayes so that D is probably her patronimic.

Quote
Any chance you can copy writing to your best ability to the piece of paper, take photo of it and upload here?
This gave me another idea: I'll try to make a rubbing of it like archeologists do on old inscriptions, and see if I can make the letters stand out more.
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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2014, 05:46:21 PM »
This sample is quiet close to handwriting style you are trying to read.


Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2014, 05:54:13 PM »
This sample is quiet close to handwriting style you are trying to read.
Yes, but the letters are hardly legible on the velvet. I'll have to acquire a charcoal stick and some soft white paper for my rubbing at some artists' supplier, that should make the letters stand out more, white on black ;).
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