Cannabis.. yes or no

[ECOCKS]

Oh, almost forgot. Seems production dropped in Afghanistan by 12% or so. Russia's claim that the US support of the Afghanistan government was leading to higher opium production and eventually more availability, was a bit off. Guess it's possible that the war shifted some of their routing more through Russia though. Probably more difficult to ship out by air or truck than in the past.

[BrianW]

Wow, what a long thread  As someone of the younger generation who didn't grow up during the 60's (I heard "everyone" then was doing it) I feel the need to chime in. 

On the totem pole of drugs, legal and illegal, marijuana is definitely on a lower rung. There are so many other drugs, many legal, that are much more harmful to people. No one dies from smoking weed. It is not physically addictive. I suppose people could get cancer from it but they would probably need to smoke an enormous amount. Moderate use is probably not physically harmful at all.

Think of how many different drugs we have in society that are legal that are so much more harmful than weed; painkillers, anti-depressants, attention deficit disorder medications and even over the counter medications can all easily be deadly. These drugs often have terrible side effects as well. A person could even overdose on Tylenol, but no one can overdose on marijuana.

I should also mention alcohol and cigarettes, both of which wreak havoc on people's health and well being, both of which are legal. Cigarettes kill over 400,000 Americans per year. Nicotine is highly addictive and is extremely difficult to quit. People that are wasted on alcohol are often a complete menace to society. My Uncle, who was a great guy and a smart lawyer, died at 53 because he was an alcoholic. Unfortunately, he had the genetic disposition towards alcoholism. A huge amount of people that commit homicide or violent crimes are under the influence of alcohol.

I don't really see what the big deal is regarding marijuana. I supposed it gets some people involved in the drug culture and they advance to other things. If people were to abuse it and smoke it constantly, it could certainly have adverse effects. But overall I don't think that marijuana is a problem.

I'm torn on the drug legalization question. In my opinion, marijuana should be decriminalized at least. The government has many more important things to worry about than marijuana.

[Sculpto]

But Brian.. don't you know weed is evil and will cause you to become a pervert?

[Seeker]

But Brian.. don't you know weed is evil and will cause you to become a pervert?

That explains a lot about me that I had always wondered about.   

And I had that poster once upon a time... plus a few others.

[Shadow]

Oh, almost forgot. Seems production dropped in Afghanistan by 12% or so. Russia's claim that the US support of the Afghanistan government was leading to higher opium production and eventually more availability, was a bit off. Guess it's possible that the war shifted some of their routing more through Russia though. Probably more difficult to ship out by air or truck than in the past.

A recent news in Russia showed that even if the production stopped completely, the Afghan drug katerls have enough stored to provde for the next 100 years.
Guess it is a lot easier as you think.

[ECOCKS]

Well, believe who you want to, Putin or the UN then:

Global potential heroin production fell by 13 per cent to 657 tons in 2009, reflecting lower opium production in both Afghanistan and Myanmar. The actual amount of heroin reaching the market is much lower (around 430 tons) since significant amounts of opium are being stockpiled. UNODC estimates that more than 12,000 tons of Afghan opium (around 2.5 years' worth of global illicit opiate demand) are being stockpiled.

100 years? 2.5 years? What's the real difference?

Wish I owned a country and could just make up whatever data was needed for press releases I wanted to make.

[Shadow]

Good to see you actually agree with me, and so do UNODC.

Perhaps a course in math ?
 divide 12.000 by 430. The result is not 2.5, that is a clue.

[BC]

By an age-old rule of thumb, every 10 tons of raw opium reduces to one ton of heroin. In other words, the worldwide opium output in 1996 translates into 430 tons of heroin. About half of that is destined for the United States.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heroin/transform/

[ECOCKS]

Good to see you actually agree with me, and so do UNODC.

Perhaps a course in math ?
 divide 12.000 by 430. The result is not 2.5, that is a clue.

Well, it would if you were stupid enough not to understand that the ratio of opium to heroin isn't one for one.

[ECOCKS]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heroin/transform/

LOL - yeah, amazing what a difference 14 years can make. It's an impressive reminder of market forces at work as to how quickly European and Russian demand could assert theimselves.

[Shadow]

Well, it would if you were stupid enough not to understand that the ratio of opium to heroin isn't one for one.

Did not take that in to account... my mistake, as I am not in to that kind of stuff. 

[Sculpto]

But do you comprehend how far one ton goes?  Only an extreme addict can consume a gram a day.  Most junkies fall into the functional user types and for such people one gram smoked will last a week. 

Anyway, the only part of the crud that is coming out of Putin's mouth relative to this topic is there really is something fishy going on when the coalition has what 120-130,000 armed soldiers on the ground and opium production seems to be the only part of the Afgan economy that is functional.

But that is going sideways on this topic. 

if there are in fact 2.5 million addicts in Russia alone.. and I think a fairly safe assumption that most are under 40.. lets be generous and say its a 60/40 split male/female ratio.. that means approximately 1 million active female junkies. 

Now, lets make some further assumptions.. keyword assumptions.. about the demographic of a female Russian junkie.. i say again.. assumptions.. I have extremely limited first hand knowledge.. keywords.. I do have first hand knowledge.. unfortunately 

A functional junkie is also going to be the best liar and actress you have ever met.  (not an assumption)

A functional junkie is going to have some money problems and most likely no sense of ethics whatsoever.  (likely to scam)

Oddly, junkies tend to be rather intelligent people.  I have always been astounded by this fact.  (not an assumption)

Desperate people with high levels of intelligence are very dangerous.

***Some junkies may wish to change their lives.  They may very well be sick of their current life and the humiliations they experience with their neighbors and families.  This may lead them to seek foreign escape via marriage***

I do not have any direct evidence of the *** comment.  But, the logic scares me. 

There is also an image that got burned into my mind when I was in Donetsk on my first visit.  One night I was walking back to my apartment pretty late, 2 or 3 in the morning, and happened past the street where the entrance to the Chicago nightclub is.  At the end of the block there was a small crowd gathered and as I passed I saw that they were trying to help a young girl who was either having a bad trip or an overdose of something.  She couldn't have been more than 15 or 16 years old and I was pretty shocked because at that point I didn't realize how embedded the drug culture is. 

As the years have passed and I have encountered some pretty strange behavior from some FSUWs I often go back to that image of that poor girl writhing in her own vomit and wonder how many girls who are trying actively to find a foreign husband have that sort of skeleton in their closets.  Just some food for thought...

[tfcrew]

Authorities estimate they seized at least 50,000 marijuana plants during a sweep through a northeastern Wisconsin national forest.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/08/12/us_drug_war_pot_farms/index.html

[Seeker]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/08/12/us_drug_war_pot_farms/index.html

Sigh... It was so much easier in my day.

I remember when it was said in a funny way but made a lot more sense....

[acctBill]

But do you comprehend how far one ton goes?  Only an extreme addict can consume a gram a day.  Most junkies fall into the functional user types and for such people one gram smoked will last a week. 

Anyway, the only part of the crud that is coming out of Putin's mouth relative to this topic is there really is something fishy going on when the coalition has what 120-130,000 armed soldiers on the ground and opium production seems to be the only part of the Afgan economy that is functional.

But that is going sideways on this topic. 

if there are in fact 2.5 million addicts in Russia alone.. and I think a fairly safe assumption that most are under 40.. lets be generous and say its a 60/40 split male/female ratio.. that means approximately 1 million active female junkies. 

Now, lets make some further assumptions.. keyword assumptions.. about the demographic of a female Russian junkie.. i say again.. assumptions.. I have extremely limited first hand knowledge.. keywords.. I do have first hand knowledge.. unfortunately 

A functional junkie is also going to be the best liar and actress you have ever met.  (not an assumption)

A functional junkie is going to have some money problems and most likely no sense of ethics whatsoever.  (likely to scam)

Oddly, junkies tend to be rather intelligent people.  I have always been astounded by this fact.  (not an assumption)

Desperate people with high levels of intelligence are very dangerous.

***Some junkies may wish to change their lives.  They may very well be sick of their current life and the humiliations they experience with their neighbors and families.  This may lead them to seek foreign escape via marriage***

I do not have any direct evidence of the *** comment.  But, the logic scares me. 

There is also an image that got burned into my mind when I was in Donetsk on my first visit.  One night I was walking back to my apartment pretty late, 2 or 3 in the morning, and happened past the street where the entrance to the Chicago nightclub is.  At the end of the block there was a small crowd gathered and as I passed I saw that they were trying to help a young girl who was either having a bad trip or an overdose of something.  She couldn't have been more than 15 or 16 years old and I was pretty shocked because at that point I didn't realize how embedded the drug culture is. 

As the years have passed and I have encountered some pretty strange behavior from some FSUWs I often go back to that image of that poor girl writhing in her own vomit and wonder how many girls who are trying actively to find a foreign husband have that sort of skeleton in their closets.  Just some food for thought...

Sculpto my in-laws blame the Russians invasion of Afghanistan for the current drug problems in Russia.  They say that even under communism there were drug problems after the Afghanistan War and the problems intensified after the end of communism.  Add in the economic problems of the 1990's and the new oil wealth and you have a major drug problem in Russia.

[tfcrew]

From that earlier article..

The men arrested in Wisconsin were Genaro Avila-Rodriguez, Adalberto Valencia, Salvador Montez-Canchola, Raul Juvenal Avila-Rodriguez, Jesus DelaTorre-Avila, Javier Navarro-Zaragoza, Gustavo Barragua-Mendoza and Jorge Omar Perez-Hipolito.

Doesn't really sound like your local Green Bay cheese head group does it?
Actually, it sounds more like a Salvadorian death squad

[Sculpto]

acctBill..

that might be the case.. I really don't know.  One time in the subway in St P we were approached by a teen girl that was obviously strung out and was panhandling.  If I had been alone I would have given her something but girl #1 was really freaked out by that and insisted we get away from the junkie ASAP.

2 comments about the bust in Wisco..

waste of a lot of good weed!  And more seriously.. the part that angers me is the guys that got busted are pawns in the truest sense.  These are not the masterminds behind the operation.. in fact they are likely to be poor dirt farmers that got into debt to a local boss back in Sonora or Sinaloa and were offered a way out of debt.. "go to the USA illegally and work an illegal crop and I will forgive your debt.. Jaunito"  The giveaway in the article was the comment about the dirty t-shirts.. I "know" those guys.  I feel bad for them.  I especially feel bad for the families they left behind and will never see again.  Meanwhile the kingpins are enforcing roadblocks around major cities and having massive gunbattles with Mexican army.  

If all the above isn't another case for complete legalization I don't know what is.  Prohibition is a disaster.

[Sculpto]

Salvadorian death squad

Thats another variation on my guess tfc.  Although, I kind of doubt it.. The Salvadoreans are more likely to be involved with criminal activity directly in central america and pretty much try to stay clear of the mexican gangs which are much larger and more powerful. 

[Gylden]

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/is-portugals-liberal-drug-policy-a-model-for-us/19591395?test=latestnews

[55North]

As someone of the younger generation who didn't grow up during the 60's (I heard "everyone" then was doing it).....

Brian, the 60s were massive fun, mainly because we were doing stuff that was unimaginable only the year before.  In the UK those who had that 'special something', were in the know, went looking, were hip, lived around the right corner, scored.  It was still very much a minority.
 
Now, in the UK, with modern geneticism and indoor agriculture, a majority of ordinary kids, meaning children, have access to stuff suitable for interplanetry travel.  Not quite so cool.
 
But the debate about legalisation has reopened here.  The tax revenues would be stupendous...........   

[BC]

From the article:

"Honestly, the way the policy might work is by taking the kick out of drugs," he said. "Why do it if you don't have that thrill of it being bad?"

There's some, maybe a lot of truth in that statement.

[Sculpto]

I was in Lisbon in 1986 and at that time the whole damn town was full of junkies.  It was a shock.  The dealers were aggressive and hit people up right as they came off the train.  If they have reduced that problem its fantastic.

[55North]

High times in Blighty....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/17/drugs-trade-drugs

[Sculpto]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhugHsEE5RI[/youtube]