Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[JayH]

Despite considerable proof  of Russian culpability in the murder of 298 innocent civilians the Russian propaganda machine keeps on offering up nonsense to point the finger away from Russia.


Flight MH17: Why can’t the Kremlin tell the truth?

Untrustworthy witnesses and doctored images
The two new falsehoods were broadcast by the official outlet of Russia’s Armed Forces, TV Zvezda, on 7 December, and by Russian State TV Rossiya-1 on 29 December. Both claims were quickly debunked by the journalists at The Insider, an independent Russian outlet, and by the open source investigative search network Bellingcat.

In the case of TV Zvezda, The Insider makes it clear that no evidence is produced to prove that an interviewee, who claims to be a defected Ukrainian officer, is in fact who he says he is. In addition, the claims made by the interviewee about the actions of Ukranian government forces were proven wrong by material evidence in open source investigations carried by Bellingcat already in July 2015. Zvezda’s unsubstantiated claims were also relayed by state-controlled TV Pervy Kanal.

Investigating the story that appeared later in the month on Russian state TV Rossiya-1, The Insider demonstrates how satellite imagery used as proof in Rossiya-1’s broadcast (see above screenshot from Rossiya-1’s report) in fact contradicts the testimony of an interviewee in the very same broadcast; the person in question claims to be a hitherto unknown eyewitness of Ukrainian troop movements in Donbas during the days around the tragedy. On top of that, the claims made by the alleged eyewitness entirely contradict the results in Bellingcat’s open source investigation referred to above.

Similar conclusions about inconsistencies, including the use of doctored images, are found in Bellingcat’s recent update of its ongoing open source investigation, The Kremlin’s Shifting, Self-Contradicting Narratives on MH17, which it published on 5 January, 2018.


http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/01/11/flight-mh17-why-cant-the-kremlin-tell-the-truth/

[Bounder]

Because you only lie and believe it's the truth and therefore can't accept the opposite as except a lie.  That's why you think Russia can only tell lies.

[msmob]

Because you only lie and believe it's the truth and therefore can't accept the opposite as except a lie.  That's why you think Russia can only tell lies.

Given the Kremlin has suggested various scenarios which were plain daft  - Russian media on the ground with rebels - having first reported it was 'another UA AN-26 transport plane' - it has been downhill all the way re FACT , Bounder (

A real cock-up with even non Kremlin controlled newspapers stating that an apology was due ...

This is another JAL 007 ... it will come out when most of us are gone

[Anotherkiwi]

Because you only lie and believe it's the truth and therefore can't accept the opposite as except a lie.  That's why you think Russia can only tell lies.

No, Bounder - it's because, in this case, the Russian authorities ARE lying, and it's been proven that they are.  I'm quite prepared to believe that Russian authorities do often tell the truth - just not when it has anything to do with MH17 or the Russian soldiers in the Donbas.

[Bounder]

No, Bounder - it's because, in this case, the Russian authorities ARE lying, and it's been proven that they are.  I'm quite prepared to believe that Russian authorities do often tell the truth - just not when it has anything to do with MH17 or the Russian soldiers in the Donbas.

Fair enough.  I only responded because of the headline.  Sick and tired of lies about Russians, JayH, and JayH's lies.  It's possible that MH17 got done by Ukrainian rebels with Russian army hardware.

[Boethius]

No, it isn't possible that it was done by Ukrainians with Russian hardware. 


Ukrainians didn't have "rebels" in the region.  They had soldiers.  Those soldiers were either funded by the Ukrainian army or by Kolomoysky.  Neither were purchasing hardware from Russia.


Donbas terrorists did have buk missiles, and Strelkov, a GRU operative, was recorded boasting about bringing down a "Ukrainian" plane immediately after MH17 was brought down.   

[msmob]

Fair enough.  I only responded because of the headline.  Sick and tired of lies about Russians, JayH, and JayH's lies.  It's possible that MH17 got done by Ukrainian rebels with Russian army hardware.

Sighs...


Bounder - 'possible' - but the HUGE pile of evidence to the contrary - suggests otherwise..

The 'rebels' had used their 'new toy' on the 14th and 16th July ..to the extent that Kyiv had pulled Military flight ops on the evening of the 16th

Kyiv should have closed the airspace - not set a minimum ceiling

The airlines still flying using this route also knew the high risk they were taking

IF UA had (again) shot down an airliner - like the last time .. it would have come out.

[Anotherkiwi]

Fair enough.  I only responded because of the headline.  Sick and tired of lies about Russians, JayH, and JayH's lies.  It's possible that MH17 got done by Ukrainian rebels with Russian army hardware.

No, it's not.  It's been proven beyond any doubt that that the BUK unit which shot down the airliner came from Russia, and was tracked in both directions before and after the crime.  I'm guessing, though, that this particular information hasn't made it into the general Russian media.

[Bounder]

I honestly don't care.  Haven't followed this story and, oh, by the way, don't read Russian media.  I'm looking forward to doing that when I become a little more proficient in the Russian language.  No idea what a BUK is, haven't been following this and don't care.  Sounds like most of you agree with me that Ukrainian separatists might have had something to do with shooting down that plane.  I guess the fact that they are Russian ( was a big part of Ukraine's makeup before the Maidan insanity), now makes them not Ukrainian and terrorists to boot, which was actually the original idea in the Maidan revolution.

[jone]

Not likely that the shoot-down was anyone other than the Little Green Men that Putin sent into Ukraine.  The BUK missile system is not a joy-stick point-and-shoot operation.  It requires many months of training to target a plane and shoot it down on this system.  Moreover, the Russian command structure was not about to trust a main-line Russian weapons system to the Ukrainian separatists.  The order may have come from Ukrainians who were in revolt against Kyiv (unlikely) but the shoot-down actions were made by Russian soldiers. 

Should note here that the Dutch have followed the chain of command of who gave the order and who he reports to - and a coincidence that various members of that chain have either died or gone missing.  The Dutch, who had primary investigative authority, are pretty meticulous in detailing what happened - if you have the desire to find out.

[Boethius]

What is a Russian?  Most Russians in Ukraine are of mixed ethnicity, and were about 17% of the population as at 2001. I suspect it was even lower in 2014.

[Bounder]

I'll go back to my original point, which is that I responded to the headline.  Not sure about this issue, don't really care, and maybe you're all right.  I don't know, I'm not going to solve it, nor am I going to entertain you.

The Russians are all the ones you are trying to run off this forum with your trite.

And in Ukraine, they are all the one who have left (as you noted) or feel alienated and oppressed living under a fascist kleptocracy and further marginalized by the likes of you who attempt, inspired by your Ukrainian nationalism, to undermine their significance, calling them "mixed".  I wonder how a "mixed" Russian feels in some parts of Ukraine these days.  While you would like it to, it doesn't diminish the anti-Russian policies and day-to-day experience of "mixed" Russians and others who were "only" 17%.  Kill the lights, because this could just go on and on.

[Boethius]

While I am no fan of the Ukrainian government, it is not fascist.

The point is not who is “left”. That figure is pretty consistent since the collapse. Such figures were not kept by the Soviets, for ideological reasons. And, who, exactly, is a “Russian”?  My SIL’s passport lists her as Russian. She does not speak Ukrainian. Yet she does not view herself as oppressed or less Russian under the current “fascist”
government.

If you don’t know anything about the issue and have no interest, why are you posting in this thread?

Finally, before you ascribe mistaken motivations to me, please note that, unlike you, I can speak Russian. My children have Russian blood and a very Russian surname, and every night, I sleep with a man who has far more Russian than Ukrainian blood.

[Bounder]

While I am no fan of the Ukrainian government, it is not fascist.

The point is not who is “left”. That figure is pretty consistent since the collapse. Such figures were not kept by the Soviets, for ideological reasons. And, who, exactly, is a “Russian”?  My SIL’s passport lists her as Russian. She does not speak Ukrainian. Yet she does not view herself as oppressed or less Russian under the current “fascist”
government.

If you don’t know anything about the issue and have no interest, why are you posting in this thread?

As I said, I was baited by the headline.  And, just because I know other Russians in Ukraine who do feel quite differently than the ones you reference, doesn't mean I don't know anything about it.  Hey, the goverment's not fascist, they aren't oppressing their Russians citizens, and if you say differently, you know nothing! That's just more of your trite.

[Boethius]

They’re not oppressing Russian speakers. Go walk the streets of Kyiv. You’ll hear more “oppressed” Russian than Ukrainian.

[Bounder]

They’re not oppressing Russian speakers. Go walk the streets of Kyiv. You’ll hear more “oppressed” Russian than Ukrainian.

Not sure when the last time you were in Kiev was, but a lot of Russians are afraid of going there. Can't speak for the one's living there, but given the anti-Russian and highly fascist demonstrations I have noted there, I wouldn't exactly be comfortable.

[jone]

While I am certainly sympathetic to the average Russian citizen, the antipathy towards Russia is Russia's own doing.  Do you think that the Estonians are happy that they have had to take significant policy steps to protect themselves against Russian aggression?  And do you not think that the ethnic Russians in Narva feel that fear that the average Estonian has?

World War II started because Hitler proclaimed that he was protecting the ethnic Germans from the populace that they lived among.  Russian nationalism is great for Russia.  Not so great for the other nations that ethnic Russians live in.

When the conflict in Ukraine began, posters from various Russian ethnic groups came on this forum and stated that within six months Ukraine would be occupied by the Russian forces in conjunction with an uprising against the Ukrainian government.  Now, if polls are to be trusted (and I am somewhat skeptical) the Ukrainian population has lost around 10,000 people due to this conflict and the Ukrainian people not in Donbas and Lugansk are overwhelmingly disposed against the Russians.  I should also point out that the Ukrainians were considered a sub-class of the Russian people by a great majority of the Russian people if social media is to be trusted.

The Kremlin knew exactly what it was doing as it tried to fashion another Transnistria out of Ukraine.  I believe that, as time goes on, Ukraine will continue to polarize against Russia and establish a stronger sense of nationalism than previously thought possible.

[JayH]

I honestly don't care. Haven't followed this story and, oh, by the way, don't read Russian media.  I'm looking forward to doing that when I become a little more proficient in the Russian language.  No idea what a BUK is, haven't been following this and don't care.  Sounds like most of you agree with me that Ukrainian separatists might have had something to do with shooting down that plane. I guess the fact that they are Russian ( was a big part of Ukraine's makeup before the Maidan insanity), now makes them not Ukrainian and terrorists to boot, which was actually the original idea in the Maidan revolution.

How ignorant are you-- - you write nonsense and admit to not caring- about the murder of 298 innocent people by Russia -Russian military - and on whose orders do you think they were there?
                                --- you admit to knowing nothing-- that is clear that you know nothing -- you can't even respond to the thread topic
                                 ---- you attempt to state here that  "most" agree with you -- there is not one comment that  agrees with you !

                                ----   it is clear that you are COMPLETELY clueless about Maidan  -- your statement is once again completely incorrect - not even close.
Perhaps you are infected by the lies that the Kremlin keeps proffering.Tell enough lies--and your brain goes dead !

[JayH]

Not sure when the last time you were in Kiev was, but a lot of Russians are afraid of going there. Can't speak for the one's living there, but given the anti-Russian and highly fascist demonstrations I have noted there, I wouldn't exactly be comfortable.

Another rubbish comment .Just  dumbass nonsense.
The reason that some may say they are afraid is because of the garbage the Kremlin spews out.
The fact is --that many Russians have written very favourably how they have been treated in Ukraine .
Ukrainians have every reason to be angry at Russia and Russians-- but- generally speaking they have gone out of their way to treat Russian visitors with civility  It highlight the point of which country is a civilised nation that wants to be part of the world-- and not a pariah state like Putin and the Kremlin kleptocracy is intent on maintaining.

[jone]

Actually, I don't doubt Bounder on his statement that many Russians are afraid to go to Kyiv.  We all remember the fake Nazis marching around.  We remember the actresses who were paid to portray terrorized ethnic Russians, the video clips which were then played in Russia and even in Ukraine on the Russian controlled television stations.  Remember the gal in Sloviansk?  She claimed that her three year old was crucified by Ukrainian nationalists?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/theres-no-evidence-the-ukrainian-army-crucified-a-child-in-slovyansk

The same lady (actress) then appeared in other 'filmed' terror incidents until she was outed and then disappeared overnight.

But the Russians remember those events as if they were real. 

So, yes, I can imagine that there is some trepidation about going to Kyiv.

[Boethius]

Not sure when the last time you were in Kiev was, but a lot of Russians are afraid of going there. Can't speak for the one's living there, but given the anti-Russian and highly fascist demonstrations I have noted there, I wouldn't exactly be comfortable.

The last time I was in Kyiv was last summer (2017).  There is no "anti Russian" sentiment there.  Anti Putin sentiment, yes.  There are no "fascist demonstrations'.  So stop lying.

There is a poster who appears here sometimes, though he hasn't much since the invasion.  I won't name him, but others here will know who he is.  He is probably the most nationalist Ukrainian on this forum.  Odd, huh, given he is an ethnic Russian from Crimea who now lives in Odesa, and, until the Russian invasion, could not speak Ukrainian.  He felt so strongly about the invasion, he volunteered for the army.  He became a sharpshooter thanks to his army training, and was discharged last year.  If he appears, I will point him here and ask him how "oppressed" he feels.

Oh, and if anyone is looking for an Odesa tour guide, PM me and I'll send you his information.  Some here have used his services and found them to be fantastic. 

[jone]

On another issue, though, that Bounder brought up:

I would think that Russia is closer to a dictatorship than Ukraine.  After all, Ukraine has refrained from executing its opposition party leaders.  Ukraine has not prohibited a guy like Nalvalny from running for President like Russia has.  Those might have been tactics used by Yanuconvict, but Poroshenko seems to be less likely to use such tactics than Putin.

Ukraine is FAR from being a democracy.  But the Kremlin is soooo paranoid right now about outside influences having impact on the politics of the country that many of the old KGB tactics are now seen regularly in Russian current events. 

Bounder, you are a Canadian inserted into Russia.  I would not doubt, for one minute, that the FSB has a file on you and that you've been brushed a couple of times while you were living there.  I know for a fact that other members of our forum have been.

Here's an interesting little tidbit that sprang up yesterday:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-election-putin-navalny/putin-says-kremlin-critic-navalny-is-u-s-pick-for-russian-presidency-idUSKBN1F028H

Perhaps V.V. Putin is afraid of Navalny because he went to Yale for a year in 2010.

[Boethius]

I think Ukraine is democratic in terms of elections and freedom of speech, but the oligarchs, not the politicians, control the country.  There are some troubling developments recently, such as requiring anti corruption activists and NGO's to register, which makes them more susceptible to state actions against them.  That is what the "fascist protests" recently have been about.


Ukraine has a very large Russian diaspora, of Russian political activists who were inconvenient to the Kremlin -


http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/28/brazen-murder-in-kiev-chills-russias-dissidents-in-ukraine/

[msmob]

Not sure when the last time you were in Kiev was, but a lot of Russians are afraid of going there. Can't speak for the one's living there, but given the anti-Russian and highly fascist demonstrations I have noted there, I wouldn't exactly be comfortable.

Oh Bounder...

You are a much a 'victim' as my programmer - who is also a sensible chap...  He had no wish to drive via Ukraine to Russia - as he feared Ukrainian's reaction to a Russian. 

[JayH]

The last time I was in Kyiv was last summer (2017).  There is no "anti Russian" sentiment there.  Anti Putin sentiment, yes.  There are no "fascist demonstrations'.  So stop lying.

There is a poster who appears here sometimes, though he hasn't much since the invasion.  I won't name him, but others here will know who he is.  He is probably the most nationalist Ukrainian on this forum.  Odd, huh, given he is an ethnic Russian from Crimea who now lives in Odesa, and, until the Russian invasion, could not speak Ukrainian.  He felt so strongly about the invasion, he volunteered for the army.  He became a sharpshooter thanks to his army training, and was discharged last year.  If he appears, I will point him here and ask him how "oppressed" he feels.

Oh, and if anyone is looking for an Odesa tour guide, PM me and I'll send you his information.  Some here have used his services and found them to be fantastic.

"Odd"  -- I don't think so. I have met quite a few from Crimea -- and now based in Odesa  who are very passionate Ukrainian nationalists now.Many ,many people have become very proud Ukrainians . During 2014  I saw this transformation personally  in many places. At first many were wary -- but in months it transformed. Many enough to take up arms and go to the east to defend THEIR country.
The inspiration those people provided  was  magnificent to witness - and all that was with the potential of facing the Russian military might at any minute.For those that have been in the east -- and seen Russia's "handiwork" first hand--it becomes very clear  which is the civilised country !

I endorse MrsB's recommendation -- and there is a forum member that used his services extensively who ( I am sure) would be happy to expand info on him.