More Bad News for Russia

[Faux Pas]

What makes me happy has nothing to do with the invariable fact that there was no insult in that post. Why not back away, move on rather than attempt to defend the indefensible? You have been warmongering. In fact almost nothing but. That's not an insult. It's a fact.

[lordtiberius]

How have I been warmongering?  Seriously.  How?  Show me evidence?  Define warmongering.  Can you?  For someone who complains that his debate partner has nothing substantive to say, this thrust of yours is very gaseous.

[Anotherkiwi]

I am glad AnotherKiwi is not negotiating for the West.  He offers nothing that he haven't already got with the status quo.  His proposal legitimates the seizure and is silent on Crimean Tatars.

Try opening your eyes and reading what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote.

[lordtiberius]

I am sorry I don't think your ideas are worth reconsidering.

[Anotherkiwi]

Well articulated, AnotherKiwi.

Thanks Mendy.

Your plan is idealistic because you have  biased understanding of political processes there.

Of course it's idealistic.  That's my whole point.  Without some idealism and hope, mixed with pragmatism, there is no future for the whole region (not just Ukraine).

Enough said, that Ukraine will never agree on your plan.

Well, as Ukraine (the government) is highly unlikely to see this, it doesn't really matter.

Though  part of your plan Kiev will try to fulfill, namely the blocade of rebels regions as you actually has proposed.  All plans which will try to relieve the responsibility of Ukraine in the settlement will fail assuredly.

Why should Ukraine have any responsibility at all for the settlement?  It was not Ukraine which invaded Crimea - it was Russia, and your beloved President has not stopped boasting about how successful his wonderful plan was.  It was not Ukraine which invaded Donbas - you can't invade your own country!  Ukraine should not be prepared to negotiate any terms until such time as Russia makes adequate reparations for all the damage it has caused.

[Anotherkiwi]

I am sorry I don't think your ideas are worth reconsidering.

You don't have to reconsider them - just read them PROPERLY to avoid spouting another load of incorrect keyboard flatulence.

[lordtiberius]

My two cents' worth [blah blah blah]

First - the idea behind Minsk II seems to have been the closest that we'll see to a real peace plan, even though it is extremely flawed and badly skewed in favour of the separatist areas.  There needs to be a concerted effort to try to make it work (at least, better than it is at the moment).

And how is that working out?  Who is breaking the truce?  What will you or anyone else do to the truce breakers?

As Russia won't allow UN peacekeepers into the area, .

Peacekeepers?  You mean blue helmeted speed bumps?  From what country?  What are their rules of engagement?  What command will they have?  A mixed national force or from all one country?  Which country?  What will be their patrol zones?  Where will they be billeted?  Who will feed them?  Any oversight over them in case of misconduct?  What happens if they are kidnapped or killed?  What about medical support?  Length of their rotations?  Tell us!

that really leaves only the OSCE as a neutral force for good.

That is not their job.  And they will tell you this.  AND MENDY, YOU KNOW THIS, WHY DIDN"T YOU SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THIS?

The OSCE is there to report and create dialogue between the European nations.  They are there to establish facts on the ground and to create dialogue between all European parties.  They are not a government agency.  DUH.

They need to be strongly beefed up, and given proper powers to enforce what's supposed to happen under the treaty.

You don't know what you are talking about.

  The separatist forces need to be made to understand that will be severe consequences for their continued breaches of the ceasefire,

They only understand force and the Ukrainian military is the only source of force to them . . . .

and those consequences MUST be enforced.  If that means people being sent to The Hague to face a war crimes tribunal, so be it.

Excuse me while I $hit my pants.

I don't really feel like going through the rest of your post because it's garbage.  You need to practice what you preach.  If you want to tell others what awesome ideas you have and wield the cluebat, read a book or use the google machine and read, because although you are pro-Ukrainian, you have proven yourself a rather lacking in knowledge and manners.

[jone]

And how is that working out?  Who is breaking the truce?  What will you or anyone else do to the truce breakers?


Peacekeepers?  You mean blue helmeted speed bumps?  From what country?  What are their rules of engagement?  What command will they have?  A mixed national force or from all one country?  Which country?  What will be their patrol zones?  Where will they be billeted?  Who will feed them?  Any oversight over them in case of misconduct?  What happens if they are kidnapped or killed?  What about medical support?  Length of their rotations?  Tell us!

 

That is not their job.  And they will tell you this.  AND MENDY, YOU KNOW THIS, WHY DIDN"T YOU SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THIS?

The OSCE is there to report and create dialogue between the European nations.  They are there to establish facts on the ground and to create dialogue between all European parties.  They are not a government agency.  DUH.

 


You don't know what you are talking about.
 

They only understand force and the Ukrainian military is the only source of force to them . . . .
 

Excuse me while I $hit my pants.

I don't really feel like going through the rest of your post because it's garbage.  You need to practice what you preach.  If you want to tell others what awesome ideas you have and wield the cluebat, read a book or use the google machine and read, because although you are pro-Ukrainian, you have proven yourself a rather lacking in knowledge and manners.

Pot.  Meet kettle.

[lordtiberius]

Pot.  Meet kettle.

Oh please enlighten us with your wisdom . . .

[Anotherkiwi]

I really don't know why I bother!  Read what I wrote, and don't comment on what I didn't write!  Is that clear enough for you????

And how is that working out?  Who is breaking the truce?  What will you or anyone else do to the truce breakers?

Read what I wrote about the OSCE.

Peacekeepers?  You mean blue helmeted speed bumps?  From what country?  What are their rules of engagement?  What command will they have?  A mixed national force or from all one country?  Which country?  What will be their patrol zones?  Where will they be billeted?  Who will feed them?  Any oversight over them in case of misconduct?  What happens if they are kidnapped or killed?  What about medical support?  Length of their rotations?  Tell us!

All extremely good points - but totally irrelevant because RUSSIA WILL NOT ALLOW UN PEACEKEEPERS TO BE DEPLOYED.  DUUUUUHHHH to you too!

That is not their job.  And they will tell you this.  AND MENDY, YOU KNOW THIS, WHY DIDN"T YOU SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THIS?

The OSCE is there to report and create dialogue between the European nations.  They are there to establish facts on the ground and to create dialogue between all European parties.  They are not a government agency.  DUH.

Again - read what I wrote. 

They need to be strongly beefed up, and given proper powers to enforce what's supposed to happen under the treaty.

Is your brain incapable of holding onto what it sees for more than a nano-second?  The OSCE are in by far the best position to see what's happening on both sides of the conflict.  That, to me, makes them ideal to enforce the ceasefire, PROVIDED they are given the staff, money and powers to do so.

You don't know what you are talking about.

And you do?

They only understand force and the Ukrainian military is the only source of force to them . . . .

Unfortunately I have to agree.  However, for any approximation of peace to happen, there must be people on both sides who are prepared to lay down their weapons and at least TRY to hammer out a solution.
 

Excuse me while I $hit my pants.

You're excused.  Take your time coming back from the laundry.

I don't really feel like going through the rest of your post because it's garbage.

You say this, and yet can't be bothered elucidating why.  What's wrong with it?  Be specific.

You need to practice what you preach.  If you want to tell others what awesome ideas you have and wield the cluebat, read a book or use the google machine and read, because although you are pro-Ukrainian, you have proven yourself a rather lacking in knowledge and manners.

Considering this very post, I feel that I've been extremely restrained in how I've responded to you.  Had I answered in the same vein as you, or in the way that I feel you deserve, I would probably be on "Watched" or even "Moderated" status.  While you are happy to wear that as a badge, I would not be.

[lordtiberius]

You don't understand the mission of the OSCE.  It is not a governing body or but a forum - a place where people can come to concensus or not.  So therefore beefing it up is beyond its mandate and since the whole point of the forum was to create a dialogue with Russia and since Russia failed to maintain any sense of civilization, OSCE is pointless now.  Which is why Belvis continues to use it as a reference of legitimacy.

Use the google machine.

As for the rest of your post as to why it is "flawed,"  why should I do your work for you?  If you were the least bit courteous, I might go point by point why it is dog excreta.  But as you have been nothing but unpleasant, let's just say, I'm busy.

Toodles

[Anotherkiwi]

You don't understand the mission of the OSCE.  It is not a governing body or but a forum - a place where people can come to concensus or not.  So therefore beefing it up is beyond its mandate and since the whole point of the forum was to create a dialogue with Russia and since Russia failed to maintain any sense of civilization, OSCE is pointless now.  Which is why Belvis continues to use it as a reference of legitimacy.

I do understand its mission.  For the THIRD time, that is why I wrote:

... that really leaves only the OSCE as a neutral force for good.  They need to be strongly beefed up, and given proper powers to enforce what's supposed to happen under the treaty.

If Russia won't allow the UN to send peacekeeping troops, then what alternative is there?  How about you come up with something positive for a change, instead of decrying everyone else's ideas?  What's YOUR plan?

As for the rest of your post as to why it is "flawed,"  why should I do your work for you?  If you were the least bit courteous, I might go point by point why it is dog excreta.  But as you have been nothing but unpleasant, let's just say, I'm busy.

Toodles

I've been a damned sight more courteous than you.  Just humour me, and show me where I've gone so wrong.  If you're reasonable, and make good points, I'll take note.  If, on the other hand, it's the same non-answers that you've contributed to this thread over the last 24 hours, I won't.

[Brasscasing]

Guys,

You're both arguing moot points.

The OSCE will never come forward and flat out say there are Russian soldiers operating in Ukraine. The closest you're going to get is words along the lines of "There are unidentified soldiers and/or equipment crossing the border between Russia and Ukraine" or words to that effect. Why?

Because the minute they confirm the Russian military is in Ukraine they'll be subject to eviction, detention and harassment by said Russian government and soldiers. In other words, the Russians will consider them an enemy combatant.

1) Understand the OSCE monitors only about 2/10's of the border and Russian occupied Ukraine. They don't have control or the resources to monitor what's really happening there in the first place.

They're restricted/confined/held to specific areas, sometimes within hearing distance of armored vehicles moving but are not permitted to investigate and/or 'inexplicably' chased off other areas/checkpoints for several hours/days at a time for no other reason than the obvious (Russian men and equipment moving).

2) I've worked with and along side the OSCE. If you've never looked up OSCE member nations? Do so, it's enlightening.

Brass

[Muzh]

Whatever makes you happy dude

Such a childish comment. And you want people to take you seriously when you can't help yourself look like a clown?


Now, who's fault is that?

[Anotherkiwi]

The OSCE will never come forward and flat out say there are Russian soldiers operating in Ukraine. The closest you're going to get is words along the lines of "There are unidentified soldiers and/or equipment crossing the border between Russia and Ukraine" or words to that effect. Why?

Because the minute they confirm the Russian military is in Ukraine they'll be subject to eviction, detention and harassment by said Russian government and soldiers. In other words, the Russians will consider them an enemy combatant.

Doesn't that make it a Catch-22 situation for the Russian government, though?  If the OSCE are in Ukraine, and there are officially no Russian troops in Ukraine, how can Russia then take any action against the OSCE without confirming the truth of what's really going on?

1) Understand the OSCE monitors only about 2/10's of the border and Russian occupied Ukraine. They don't have control or the resources to monitor what's really happening there in the first place.

They're restricted/confined/held to specific areas, sometimes within hearing distance of armored vehicles moving but are not permitted to investigate and/or 'inexplicably' chased off other areas/checkpoints for several hours/days at a time for no other reason than the obvious (Russian men and equipment moving).

Hence my suggestion to beef them up, both in terms of resources and power.  I'm well aware that the chances of this happening are the equivalent of lordtiberius or myself flying to the moon without a spaceship.

2) I've worked with and along side the OSCE. If you've never looked up OSCE member nations? Do so, it's enlightening.

Brass

Every country in Europe and the FSU (plus others).  Very interesting that even Switzerland is a member.

[Brasscasing]

Doesn't that make it a Catch-22 situation for the Russian government, though?  If the OSCE are in Ukraine, and there are officially no Russian troops in Ukraine, how can Russia then take any action against the OSCE without confirming the truth of what's really going on?

Do what they're doing now. Insist any problems the OSCE monitors have doing their job are with the local terrorists/separatists and continue denying Russian military/soldiers are involved.

If the OSCE officially reported that the Russian military were in Ukraine, it wouldn't change the dynamic, the Russian military are already there. All it would accomplish is to declare open season on the OSCE monitors themselves.

Brass

[lordtiberius]

Such a childish comment. And you want people to take you seriously when you can't help yourself look like a clown?


Now, who's fault is that?

Blah blah blah,

[lordtiberius]

Guys,

You're both arguing moot points.

The OSCE will never come forward and flat out say there are Russian soldiers operating in Ukraine. The closest you're going to get is words along the lines of "There are unidentified soldiers and/or equipment crossing the border between Russia and Ukraine" or words to that effect. Why?

Because the minute they confirm the Russian military is in Ukraine they'll be subject to eviction, detention and harassment by said Russian government and soldiers. In other words, the Russians will consider them an enemy combatant.

1) Understand the OSCE monitors only about 2/10's of the border and Russian occupied Ukraine. They don't have control or the resources to monitor what's really happening there in the first place.

They're restricted/confined/held to specific areas, sometimes within hearing distance of armored vehicles moving but are not permitted to investigate and/or 'inexplicably' chased off other areas/checkpoints for several hours/days at a time for no other reason than the obvious (Russian men and equipment moving).

2) I've worked with and along side the OSCE. If you've never looked up OSCE member nations? Do so, it's enlightening.

Brass

How can I argue a moot position when you have restated my position again?

AKiwi, you want to start clean slate, NP.  My plan is to arm the Ukrops until they retake the Donbass, Crimea and Kuban.  This is not going to end until Russia collapses whether it is in a civil war of its own choosing or if Ukraine occupies Moscow.  My money is on the former but we shouldn't rule out the later.

[Brasscasing]

How can I argue a moot position when you have restated my position again?

Sorry about that. I lost track of the discussion.

Brass

[lordtiberius]

Sorry about that. I lost track of the discussion.

Brass

IN fairness to you, you said it better.

3 Russian activists protesting the Crimean invasion go to trial for raising the German Flag in Kaliningrad

http://www.colta.ru/articles/society/6914

The Russian propaganda boy known to us as Motorola admits he is a war criminal:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/kremlin-backed-fighters-confession-of-killing-prisoners-might-become-evidence-of-war-crimes-audio-385532.html

Still think they will win?

[Muzh]

How can I argue a moot position when you have restated my position again?

AKiwi, you want to start clean slate, NP.  My plan is to arm the Ukrops until they retake the Donbass, Crimea and Kuban.  This is not going to end until Russia collapses whether it is in a civil war of its own choosing or if Ukraine occupies Moscow.  My money is on the former but we shouldn't rule out the later.

[AkMike]

Russia's Gazprom Says Net Profit Plummeted 70% in 2014
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russias-gazprom-says-net-profit-plummeted-70-in-2014/518289.html

Police Seek Tupolev Manager Who Cost Russia's Aviation Industry Millions
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/police-seek-tupolev-manager-who-cost-russias-aviation-industry-millions/518836.html

Former Finance Minister Slams Russian Government on Corruption
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/business/article/former-finance-minister-slams-russian-government-on-corruption/518790.html

Russian Car Market Contraction Gains Pace as Crisis Collapses Market
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-car-market-contraction-gains-pace-as-crisis-collapses-market/518838.html

Fight Over Ukraine Darkens Future of Russia-U.S. Nuclear Arms Control
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/fight-over-ukraine-darkens-future-of-russia-us-nuclear-arms-control/518783.html

Russian Unemployment Rises as Jobs Get Scarcer
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russian-unemployment-rises-as-jobs-get-scarcer/518742.html

Russian Suspect Says Ex-KGB's Litvinenko Might Have Accidentally Killed Himself
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-suspect-says-ex-kgbs-litvinenko-might-have-accidentally-killed-himself/518803.html

Russian Media Made Up Story About Child Killed in Ukraine,
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-media-made-up-story-about-child-killed-in-ukraine-says-bbc/518831.html

Russian Hackers Had Access to Obama's White House Schedule — CNN
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-hackers-had-access-to-obamas-white-house-schedule--cnn/518796.html

[lordtiberius]

You want to start over, turn over a new leaf?  Tell me what you object to with this post?  Sans insults if you can.

[Muzh]

Heh


Before you arm YOUR Ukrops, you should plug the black hole where the funding for those weapons go. That's first and foremost.


Then you weed out the Roosyia sympathizers from the brass and conduct efficient and meaningful training, hopefully with NATO instructors.


Before you arm anyone, you make sure that ALL the politicians are all in sync and speak with one voice.


Then you arm your army.


All of this while trying to revamp your economy.


Offer the traitors the option to return to Ukraine or forever go back to Roosyia. Those who want to return receive them with open arms but use the Reagan doctrine of "Trust but verify."


Those who decide to go back to the Czar wish them well, say goodbye and seal the borders shut. For this you will need your well-trained and well-armed army.


Immediately hold general elections.




What you are offering is cannon fodder and nothing accomplished.
 

[lordtiberius]

Your post is brilliant.  Who would argue against this?  Where have I written otherwise.  I agree.