More Bad News for Russia

[JayH]

Reflecting on the thread title  -- it is guys like Bounder and papakota  that  illustrate the really BAD NEWS FOR RUSSIA.
By  seeking to rationalise and justify Putin and Russia's  actions and behaviour over these last few years only serves to prolong the agony of the Russian people-- and I mean russian speaking people everywhere -not just in Russia.
 As long as excuses are made-- and attempts made to blame others -- the reality will be blind to the people of Russia .
It is going to take a major shaking to dispel the blind faith in Putin & his Kremlin. 

[Bounder]

Reflecting on the thread title  -- it is guys like Bounder and papakota  that  illustrate the really BAD NEWS FOR RUSSIA.
By  seeking to rationalise and justify Putin and Russia's  actions and behaviour over these last few years only serves to prolong the agony of the Russian people-- and I mean russian speaking people everywhere -not just in Russia.
 As long as excuses are made-- and attempts made to blame others -- the reality will be blind to the people of Russia .
It is going to take a major shaking to dispel the blind faith in Putin & his Kremlin. 

Keep crying about it Jay.  There's two sides to the story.  And Ukraine has a long long list of excuses as to why it is so corrupt and 25 years on since it was given a chance to run its affairs it finds itself in its current state.  And when it comes to Ukraine, it seems to me that EVERYTHING IS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT, right Jay?  Things won't get better for Ukraine as long as the country and it's defenders are unable to take responsibility for Ukraine's own shortcomings and failures.

If Canada was run by Ukrainians, as BillyB (kind of) hypothetically proposed, Canada would be a borderline failed state and it would all be the Americans fault!

[Bounder]

Article  comments on the language issue-- some have raided it upthread here.

Putin, not Poroshenko, has destroyed future of Russian language in Ukraine

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko criticized by some for saying that Russia will never have the status of a state language in in his country is doing no more than ratifying what Russian President Vladimir Putin has already achieved: causing Ukrainians who have spoken Russian all their lives to drop that language and use Ukrainian.

Only a year ago, journalist Arkady Babchenko says in a Facebook post, discussions about making Russian a state language in Ukraine were “completely natural” and didn’t elicit “any particular antagonism”.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/12/babchenko-putin-not-poroshenko-has-destroyed-future-of-russian-language-in-ukraine/

Jay, this is more silly disinformation from your Ukrainian sources.  I know it's not as reliable as the Euromaidan Press, but I'm sure you can agree that the BBC isn't exactly pro-Russian.  Look at the BBC timeline of events in Ukraine:

February 23-26, 2014:

Parliament votes to ban Russian as the second official language, causing a wave of anger in Russian-speaking regions

February 27-28, 2014:

Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Unidentified gunmen in combat uniforms appear outside Crimea's main airports.

The Ukraine decided to start a war with its own citizens!  What do you think would happen in Canada if Ottawa decided to ban French?  But yes, Ukraine always needs someone to blame, so who better else than Russia?

Ukrainian nationalists predictably shoot themselves in the foot and then look for someone to blame, that's how it always goes.  I would say poor Russia, but it's Ukraine that needs to be pitied here.  I don't know that Ukraine will ever get it right....  They'll just keep blaming everyone else.

[AkMike]

So you're aledgeing that the 6-8,000 combat ready 'little green men' that invaded Krim were really Ukrainian?  LMAO 

[BillyB]

If Canada was run by Ukrainians, as BillyB (kind of) hypothetically proposed, Canada would be a borderline failed state and it would all be the Americans fault!

Actually what I was proposing is Canada being run by Canadians and moved next to Russia and Ukraine run by Ukrainians and moved next to America and think about where each nation would be. I just wanted to give you an idea how much outside influence good and bad can affect your nation and Ukraine. I'm all about accountability but a lot of Ukraine's problems are caused by Russia. I wish I could say a lot of Ukraine's success is from Russia's influence. Russia would gain more friends if they could make stuff like that happen.

[AkMike]

But they don't and can't because of the oil price and further hampered by those pesky sanctions supported by most of the wold nations.

[Bounder]

So you're aledgeing that the 6-8,000 combat ready 'little green men' that invaded Krim were really Ukrainian?  LMAO 

I alleged nothing of the sort.

[Bounder]

Actually what I was proposing is Canada being run by Canadians and moved next to Russia and Ukraine run by Ukrainians and moved next to America and think about where each nation would be. I just wanted to give you an idea how much outside influence good and bad can affect your nation and Ukraine. I'm all about accountability but a lot of Ukraine's problems are caused by Russia. I wish I could say a lot of Ukraine's success is from Russia's influence. Russia would gain more friends if they could make stuff like that happen.

I know, you were proposing a slightly different hypothetical scenario.  And I take your point (we're back to geography here again), but Russia is not responsible for all Ukraine's problems.  If Poland had a border right against Russia (actually, they do with Kaliningrad), I tend to feel they would be doing much better than Ukraine is.  Ukraine just has way to many psychological issues or I don't even know what to call them.  But they can't get over themselves and just get on with reality even though I'm sure many Ukrainians would like to.  Now they made it worse by attacking their own people with language oppression.  I can't see how that is going to expedite the road to peace and prosperity.

[msmob]

Russia is not responsible for all Ukraine's problems. 

Not solely responsible... your 'stance' is either ignorant or a stubborn refusal to see reality

[Bounder]

Not solely responsible... your 'stance' is either ignorant or a stubborn refusal to see reality

No, I'm not ignorant and nor am I spending a lot of time out in Sochi to know the things you know.  But I'm smart enough to know that reality lies somewhere among all the shades of grey.

[Boethius]

To be honest, I think Ukraine has had a good go at it, being a country that is.  I mean, it has been given 25 years and look where they are.  A deeply corrupted entity that is not in the West and now is not in the East either.  Good luck to it! 

To be perfectly honest, for Ukrainians in Ukraine today, the sooner they quit fighting with Russia, the sooner life will get better.  EU dreams are way way off, if ever, in my opinion. 

As long as the words NATO are whispered on Russia's doorstep, life is going to be hell for Ukrainians, so go talk to your government about that if you really care for Ukraine and it's people.

Just my two cents and I don't want wars with any of you.  There's plenty enough of those here and everywhere.

Ukraine and Russia have approximately the same level of corruption.  Russia has tackled corruption with its police, Ukraine has not.  If you look at Transparency International, you will note that both countries are in the 20-29 range, meaning "highly corrupt".

As for fighting Russia, Ukraine did not invade Russia.  Ukraine did not send SBU agents to Rostov, or Bryansk, or Belgorod to create a civil war.

[Boethius]

As to toppling the government in Ukraine, you are confusing me.  The Maidan protesters ran the democratically elected government out of town with American backing.  Do you think Russia gets excited when the Americans practice regime change on their doorstep?  They sure do!

Maidan was started by Ukrainian oligarchs, not Americans.

In my view, Ukrainians have the government they deserve.  And blaming your own government on an outside force is the very definition of dependency.  The Ukrainians haven't been able to do anything for themselves.  They don't even have the same level of prosperity or stability as Belarus or Russia.  For me that proves the point.  The Ukrainians have shown they are incapable of running a country.  The Poles are a different breed altogether, it's not apples and apples.

Ukraine's government has always been riddled with Russian spies. 


You likely are unaware that during the coup, all KGB records in Kyiv were moved to Moscow.  Every president and PM of Ukraine was part of the former nomenklatura.  Their files sit in Moscow, and can be used for Moscow's benefit as Moscow sees fit.  In fact, almost all the politicians in both Russia and Ukraine were part of the former nomenklatura.  In one case, a "mova mova" politician from L'vivska oblast had her KGB files leaked by Moscow during Euromaidan.  It turns out she was a komsomol member (not unusual) and informant at L'viv State University.  Her political career ended that day.

Without going into it, an interesting historical fact is that Poles have always been Westward looking, whereas the Ukrainians have always been Eastward looking.  Now Ukraine tried to move west and therein lies their problem.  When they get around to accepting their place in this world it is going to go better for them.  Ukraine is simply confused.

Uh, no.  Was Ivan Franko "Eastern looking"?  Were Kost Levytsky or Yevhen Petrushevych "Eastern looking"?  How about Metropolit Shyptetsky?


Your statement is absurd, and is evidence of the paucity of your knowledge of Ukrainian history, political movements, intellectual, or cultural life.

No, Ukraine never bothered to accept reality and get on with life.  Why is Ukraine behind Russia and Belarus?  Because of Ukraine, they have no one to blame but themselves.  Russia got involved when the Americans decided they would meddle in Ukraine.  It's as simple as that.

Actually, it is not that simple.  Russia has been interfering in Ukrainian political life since about 1994. 

NATO has only ill intentions for Russia.  Ukraine could get security and increase prosperity, by getting on with reality. 

Up until Russia's invasion of Ukraine, poll after poll after poll in Ukraine had Ukrainians rejecting NATO membership.  It was never on the cards, neither wanted, nor offered.

Actually, there are lots of refugees in Russia from Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, North Korea, and elsewhere.  Yes, Russia provides a better life for those people, including their kids. 

Yeah, they live wonderfully in Russia.

[Boethius]

Sorry, my mistake, only the democratically elected President got run out of town.  Mea Culpa.  It was proven he was very corrupt?  If that is the measure why is he the only Ukrainian leader that has been run out of town?  They are all dirty, slimy, and corrupt.  And they are picked by Ukrainians!  They get what they deserve.  Instead of going to war with their own government to make things better, they go to war with Russian-Ukrainians instead.  There, that's going to make it better!  It's just the same old story for Ukraine.  This never was a serious country.

Actually no, they're aren't really picked by Ukrainians.  They are picked by oligarchs.  Ukrainians have gone to war with their government, twice.  Once was the Orange Revolution, the second time was Euromaidan. 


I don't disagree that all Ukraine's politicians are corrupt.  But the measure of change must be incremental.

[Boethius]

That's my point Jone.  Canada has figured out how to make it work, while the US continues it's belligerence elsewhere.  Ukraine could try to do the same, understanding it's geographic realities.  Because those won't change.

US takes it's entry points to the Middle East very seriously.  So does Russia.  It's no different.  Let's see what happens when Saudi goes up in flames....

Seriously, you are comparing the U.S. with a country that throughout its history has been either authoritarian or totalitarian? 


The geographic realities of Ukraine doesn't mean that Russia gets to gobble it up.

[Bounder]

Seriously, you are comparing the U.S. with a country that throughout its history has been either authoritarian or totalitarian? 


The geographic realities of Ukraine doesn't mean that Russia gets to gobble it up.

No, I was making a point about geographic realities.

[Boethius]

Keep crying about it Jay.  There's two sides to the story.  And Ukraine has a long long list of excuses as to why it is so corrupt and 25 years on since it was given a chance to run its affairs it finds itself in its current state.  And when it comes to Ukraine, it seems to me that EVERYTHING IS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT, right Jay?  Things won't get better for Ukraine as long as the country and it's defenders are unable to take responsibility for Ukraine's own shortcomings and failures.

If Canada was run by Ukrainians, as BillyB (kind of) hypothetically proposed, Canada would be a borderline failed state and it would all be the Americans fault!

As I posted, Russia is as corrupt as Ukraine.  The difference is that in Russia, the former KGB has tamed the oligarchs to serve the state, while in Ukraine, the state serves the oligarchs.  Nevertheless, when your neighbour is interfering in your internal affairs, has spies infiltrating every level of government, and every ministry, and where is puts up roadblocks to ensure your goods are not traded broadly, that bilateral trade agreements are stymied, then no, you can't place the blame solely and squarely on the shoulders of Ukrainians.


You also, I suspect, have little understanding of how the USSR worked.  That structure had an effect on post Soviet governments.

[Boethius]

Jay, this is more silly disinformation from your Ukrainian sources.  I know it's not as reliable as the Euromaidan Press, but I'm sure you can agree that the BBC isn't exactly pro-Russian.  Look at the BBC timeline of events in Ukraine:

February 23-26, 2014:

Parliament votes to ban Russian as the second official language, causing a wave of anger in Russian-speaking regions

February 27-28, 2014:

Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Unidentified gunmen in combat uniforms appear outside Crimea's main airports.

The Ukraine decided to start a war with its own citizens!  What do you think would happen in Canada if Ottawa decided to ban French?  But yes, Ukraine always needs someone to blame, so who better else than Russia?

Ukrainian nationalists predictably shoot themselves in the foot and then look for someone to blame, that's how it always goes.  I would say poor Russia, but it's Ukraine that needs to be pitied here.  I don't know that Ukraine will ever get it right....  They'll just keep blaming everyone else.

Again, your lack of knowledge of Ukraine (and its politics) is evident.


Since 1991, Crimea was always granted autonomous status.  Unlike other regions of Ukraine, it was not required to produce official documents in the Ukrainian language.  That was the case right up to its seizure by Russia.


Article 10 of Ukraine's constitution guarantees language rights to minorities.  But Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine. 


The 2014 proposal on language was merely to codify what was already in the constitution, and to guarantee minority linguistic rights.  In fact, those rights are more generous than those in Canada, for any region in which at least 10% of the population speaks a language would have had linguistic rights recognized and enforced by legislation.  That was the "controversial" bill presented. 


So when do you believe Canada will recognize Mandarin as a second language on the BC coast?


In any event, this again demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the history of Ukraine, one in which Russification was used in an attempt to wipe out the Ukrainian language, going all the way back to the Tsars (look up "Ems Ukaz"). 


I always supported the Ukrainization efforts in Ukraine.  My better half, a native Russian speaker (though his Ukrainian is absolutely fluent, better than mine, although the endings on some of his words are Russian), thought it better to allow language to develop on its own.  The policy was a good one, for in one generation, Ukrainian has re emerged as a language of the masses, even if Russian is still the language of business, and more commonly spoken in Central/Eastern Ukraine.

[Boethius]

I know, you were proposing a slightly different hypothetical scenario.  And I take your point (we're back to geography here again), but Russia is not responsible for all Ukraine's problems.  If Poland had a border right against Russia (actually, they do with Kaliningrad), I tend to feel they would be doing much better than Ukraine is.  Ukraine just has way to many psychological issues or I don't even know what to call them.  But they can't get over themselves and just get on with reality even though I'm sure many Ukrainians would like to.  Now they made it worse by attacking their own people with language oppression.  I can't see how that is going to expedite the road to peace and prosperity.

Once again, a failure to understand history.  Ukraine had a long way to go, because its language and culture were oppressed for centuries.   Not only by Russia.

[Bounder]

As I posted, Russia is as corrupt as Ukraine.  The difference is that in Russia, the former KGB has tamed the oligarchs to serve the state, while in Ukraine, the state serves the oligarchs.  Nevertheless, when your neighbour is interfering in your internal affairs, has spies infiltrating every level of government, and every ministry, and where is puts up roadblocks to ensure your goods are not traded broadly, that bilateral trade agreements are stymied, then no, you can't place the blame solely and squarely on the shoulders of Ukrainians.


You also, I suspect, have little understanding of how the USSR worked.  That structure had an effect on post Soviet governments.

No, Russia is not as corrupt as Ukraine.  Russia is corrupt, but not as corrupt as Ukraine.  That is objectively true to anyone who has been in both places or has done business in both places. 

Ukrainians need someone to blame for all their problems.  Sure, some can be validly pinned to Russia, but the problem is Ukraine tries to pin every one of its problems on Russia, and that simply strains all credulity!

I acknowledge that you know much more about the USSR than I do, and while I have no direct experience, you are wrong to suggest I have "little understanding" of how it worked.  It worked that way in other Soviet Republics as well, including Russia.  It's just Ukraine that can't get up to speed.

[Boethius]

No, I was making a point about geographic realities.

I understood your point.  But it is irrelevant to the building of a state. 

[Bounder]

I understood your point.  But it is irrelevant to the building of a state.

Sorry, how is geographic reality irrelevant to building a state?  Ukrainian territory isn't in cyberspace or something!

[Boethius]

No, Russia is not as corrupt as Ukraine.  Russia is corrupt, but not as corrupt as Ukraine.  That is objectively true to anyone who has been in both places or has done business in both places. 

LOL.  I have clients who have done business in both places.

Client 1 - Owned oil and gas interests in Ukraine.  Partner was an arm of the Ukrainian government.  Partner tried to squeeze client out.  Client sued.  Won.  In Ukraine's Supreme Court.  Millions in damages (actually profit on client's seized interest, together with interest thereon), and still owns that interest.

Client 2 - Sold oil and gas equipment, very specialized, for oilfield production in Ukraine.  Paid in full, did several contracts, no problems.

Client 3 - Established an oilfield service business in Russia.  Did well while a very small profit.  Once more profitable, starting being "fined" by the Russian government.  "Fines" went away with bribes.   When very profitable (five years in), business was seized by the Russian government.  No compensation to the client.

Client 4 - In a partnership with a Russian company.  When the company was well established and profitable thanks to client's expertise and training, the client was strong armed to sell at a loss to the Russian partner.

The client 3 and 4 scenarios happen in Ukraine as well.  But if you believe Russia is not as corrupt as Ukraine, I have $8 million locked in a Nigerian bank account.  PM me, and for the $800,000 fee I will pay to the Nigerian government to unlock that money, I will give you a 50% finder's fee.

Ukrainians need someone to blame for all their problems.  Sure, some can be validly pinned to Russia, but the problem is Ukraine tries to pin every one of its problems on Russia, and that simply strains all credulity!

No they don't.  They never blamed their problems on Russia until Russia f****n invaded them.  Don't give me that BS.  I read Ukrainian papers daily.  I read Russian papers as well.  Ukraine has always had a freer press than Russia (Russia had a fairly good, free press in the Yeltsin years), partly because of all those diaspora Ukrainians who pored into the country on its independence, and who trained Ukrainian journalists.

Yanukovych started controlling Ukraine's press.  However, these days, Ukraine's press is again free.  Now, though, most of the mainstream media is owned by oligarchs, so their particular perspectives will be portrayed in the press.  That doesn't mean what is printed is inaccurate, just that it can be slanted.  It's fairly easy for anyone with half a brain to spot, so it's not an issue.

I acknowledge that you know much more about the USSR than I do, and while I have no direct experience, you are wrong to suggest I have "little understanding" of how it worked.  It worked that way in other Soviet Republics as well, including Russia.  It's just Ukraine that can't get up to speed.

Er, uh, no.  It didn't.  Proof again you don't know what you are talking about.

As for other Soviet republics, you mean like Uzbekistan?  The republic where the recently deceased leader boiled alive his enemies?  Or Turkmenistan?  Where the leader decreed that the new name for "bread" would henceforth be his mother's name?  Azerbaijan, whose leader was named Transparency Internationals "Corruption Person of the Year"? Armenia?  Georgia?   

The only republics doing decently are the Baltic Republics, thanks to the EU, and Kazakhstan, thanks to its oil and gas, and it is ruled by an autocrat.

[Boethius]

Sorry, how is geographic reality irrelevant to building a state?  Ukrainian territory isn't in cyberspace or something!

I repeat.  The geographic realities of Ukraine doesn't mean that Russia gets to gobble it up.

[Bounder]

Maidan was started by Ukrainian oligarchs, not Americans.

Ukraine's government has always been riddled with Russian spies. 


You likely are unaware that during the coup, all KGB records in Kyiv were moved to Moscow.  Every president and PM of Ukraine was part of the former nomenklatura.  Their files sit in Moscow, and can be used for Moscow's benefit as Moscow sees fit.  In fact, almost all the politicians in both Russia and Ukraine were part of the former nomenklatura.  In one case, a "mova mova" politician from L'vivska oblast had her KGB files leaked by Moscow during Euromaidan.  It turns out she was a komsomol member (not unusual) and informant at L'viv State University.  Her political career ended that day.


Uh, no.  Was Ivan Franko "Eastern looking"?  Were Kost Levytsky or Yevhen Petrushevych "Eastern looking"?  How about Metropolit Shyptetsky?


Your statement is absurd, and is evidence of the paucity of your knowledge of Ukrainian history, political movements, intellectual, or cultural life.


Actually, it is not that simple.  Russia has been interfering in Ukrainian political life since about 1994. 

Up until Russia's invasion of Ukraine, poll after poll after poll in Ukraine had Ukrainians rejecting NATO membership.  It was never on the cards, neither wanted, nor offered.


Yeah, they live wonderfully in Russia.

Which coup are you talking about?

Referencing a few intellectuals who were westward looking does not make the point that Ukraine was westward looking.  It wasn't.  It has always been in Russia's orbit and looking eastward.  I don't say that as a slur.  It's just a fact.  It has always been inextricably linked with Russian history, starting with Kievan Rus.

I once had the opportunity to learn Ukrainian history when I marked for Ukrainian history course.  This course was taken mostly by Ukrainians, presumably because they saw it as an "easy" Arts credit, which they needed for their science degree.

The most I learned about Ukrainian history were from two students who wrote exceptional and well-researched papers.  Judging from their last names, they weren't Ukrainian.  All the Ukrainian students simply wrote nonsensical diatribes which we based on "my father told me this..." blah blah.

Given the opportunity to teach, Ukrainians had nothing of value to offer, so you are right, my Ukrainian history is a bit dodgy.

Russia has been interfering in Ukrainian life since 1994?  So what are you saying?  That Russia stopped interfering for 3 years and then started again?

Afghan, Uzbek and other refugees live better in Russia than from where they left.  That's why they came and that's why they haven't gone back, which they are always free to do.  I didn't say it's Club Med or something.

[Bounder]

I repeat.  The geographic realities of Ukraine doesn't mean that Russia gets to gobble it up.

The geographical realities of Ukraine means that it has to try to be successful within its geographical reality.  Russia isn't trying to gobble it up any more than Ukraine is already a regurgitation of Russia.

Damn, I just got hungry for pierogies!