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Author Topic: More Bad News for Ukraine  (Read 21543 times)

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Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2016, 01:25:25 PM »
Agree.
I became a Russian citizen a month ago and I won't vote for Putin. How am I responsible? Maidan is a bad example, 'cos it hasn't achieved so far any of its goals. Also you can't compare Ukraine and Russia in that sense. Maidan only happened due to Yanukovitch's weakness and the fact that about half of Ukraine was pro Maidan. In Russia Putin is strong and most of Russians are pro Putin, God knows why though, considering their living conditions and all the problems, but they are. Regardless, how am I personally responsible? It's as stupid as if Arabs start blaming my daughter for US's Iraq invasion in 2003. As a matter of fact, Putin is pretty liberal and pro Western. Trust me, he does a lot to keep things relatively OK. I don't support him, but just to be fair to him. There are plenty of hardliners here (Army, KGB, nationalists, Communists) who want to go back to Soviet days and if they succeed, you'd miss Putin's times dearly.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 01:27:47 PM by papakota »

Offline Boethius

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2016, 01:30:13 PM »
Maidan has achieved one goal, and that is to move Ukraine closer to Europe.  Whether that would have occurred had Yanukovych stayed in power is debatable.  The visa free travel, for instance, was being negotiated under Yanukovych as well, with the sticking point being biometric passports.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2016, 01:48:52 PM »
Maidan has achieved one goal, and that is to move Ukraine closer to Europe.  Whether that would have occurred had Yanukovych stayed in power is debatable.  The visa free travel, for instance, was being negotiated under Yanukovych as well, with the sticking point being biometric passports.
Ukraine is Europe. A geographic heart of Europe to be exact. Remember, Україна це Европа? Visa free travel hasn't achieved yet, but regardless, I travel to Europe visa free since 1990, so what? I'm not a citizen of a European country (well, Russia is kinda European, but I'm talking about my other citizenship). One more thing, if I understand it correctly, that visa free regime that Ukraine tries to achieve would be crippled, 'cos it won't include the UK. UK is not in Schengen area. With my non European passport I can travel visa free to the UK, not like it makes any difference in my life. Moreover, the goal of Maidan was not an easier tourism to Europe (with 200 dollars per months as average salary not many will be able to afford that). It was joining the EU and fighting the corruption. Both of those goals so far failed. No success in reduction of corruption and also Association Agreement is not ratified in Netherlands, therefore it's not valid. And considering that in Europe conservatives and Euro skeptics are getting stronger now (not speaking of Trump), Ukraine's chances so far are not so good. Of course, things change and maybe a generation from now, it would be different, but we are talking about today and not about a distant future.

Offline Boethius

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2016, 01:57:39 PM »
It opens new worlds to them.  It's baby steps, and this is the first step.  The UK is not all of Europe, so also irrelevant.


You aren't travelling to Europe on a Russian passport.  It it's on a Western passport, then I don't understand  what your point is.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2016, 02:11:34 PM »
It opens new worlds to them.  It's baby steps, and this is the first step.  The UK is not all of Europe, so also irrelevant.


You aren't travelling to Europe on a Russian passport.  It it's on a Western passport, then I don't understand  what your point is.
Who told you that only the citizens of Western countries can travel visa free to the UK and Schengen area? There are plenty of rich non Western countries whose citizens can travel visa free. South Korea, Japan, Israel etc.
I have told here ten times that I am a citizen of a rich non Western country. My new Russian citizenship doesn't matter.
I don't even have a Russian passport yet. My point is that a visa free travel has nothing to do with anything. 'cos it's only about tourism and nothing else. Maidan was about a legal right to work and residence. Totally different. Just look where Poles and citizens of Baltics states go. Do they immigrate to Finland or the UK? Let alone Greece, Portugal and Cyprus. UK attracts most of potential immigrants from Eastern Europe, therefore it's very relevant. Even in terms of tourism, UK and Ireland are very important places in Europe.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 02:30:06 PM by papakota »

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2016, 04:01:13 PM »
JayH and ML are so brave because they sit in Australia and US, respectively. They can talk about Maidan and all. But I bet that most likely if they were ordinary Russian citizens living in Russia, they would've praised Putin. And unlike me, they wouldn't be criticizing him publicly. There is a saying in Russian, it's easier to preach than to be a saint.

Offline JayH

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2016, 08:48:00 PM »
. Moreover, the goal of Maidan was not an easier tourism to Europe (with 200 dollars per months as average salary not many will be able to afford that). It was joining the EU and fighting the corruption. Both of those goals so far failed.

Like so much of your clueless assessment and understanding of today's Ukraine- your comment is simply wrong.
On both the specifics you list they are work in progress - with some positives on the pathway.
There was no lightswitch to end corruption overnight-- and it is a work in progress.
Is it slower that a lot would like ? Yes-that is true. Is it as wide and far reaching as it needs to be? Not yet.
Is Ukraine integrated with the EU-not yet- but steps ARE HAPPENING.

Calling these aims as failures is just plain wrong-and misleading.

Try reading more and wider of Ukraine's revolution .

Russian blogger Alexander Tver condemned Russian aggression in Crimea and Donbas.

"Speaking of "Glory to Ukraine" - we're talking a shame. Shame on the whole Russian world with its false and rotten through and through spirituality, war lust, gangster lawlessness, sovereign arrogance, imperial ambitions, intolerance, destruction of the whole light, intelligent and moral, the humiliation of his beleaguered people and attempt the conquest of foreign peoples "- writes the blogger."




Nobody knew that Ukraine will become a symbol of struggle and freedom


The slogan "Glory to Ukraine" for each normal Russians according to the blogger should become a symbol of choice and save your own "I". "It's not bravado, pathos or something else. All this can be done quietly and not on elevated emotions. To do in spite of everything. No one knew that Ukraine will become a symbol of struggle and freedom

 http://www.amn.com.ua/blogy/set-vzorval-post-rossyjskogo-blogera-o-vojne-v-donbasse-nykto-ne-znal-chto-ukrayna-stanet-symvolom-borby-y-svobody/
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Boethius

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2016, 10:18:07 PM »
Who told you that only the citizens of Western countries can travel visa free to the UK and Schengen area? There are plenty of rich non Western countries whose citizens can travel visa free. South Korea, Japan, Israel etc.
I have told here ten times that I am a citizen of a rich non Western country. My new Russian citizenship doesn't matter.
I don't even have a Russian passport yet. My point is that a visa free travel has nothing to do with anything. 'cos it's only about tourism and nothing else. Maidan was about a legal right to work and residence. Totally different. Just look where Poles and citizens of Baltics states go. Do they immigrate to Finland or the UK? Let alone Greece, Portugal and Cyprus. UK attracts most of potential immigrants from Eastern Europe, therefore it's very relevant. Even in terms of tourism, UK and Ireland are very important places in Europe.

Visa free travel has indeed been the first step to increased EU rights for Eastern Europe.  Israel is not in Eastern Europe.  You may want to review the history on this.  That is why it is important.

Maidan was never about the legal right to work or reside in the EU.  It was about adopting European human rights and European legal standards, as opposed to Russian human rights and legal standards.

The UK has attracted the most immigrants because its economy was strongest and its benefit system easily exploited.  Romanian Romanis have bragged about building houses in their home villages based on the UK benefits they received.

Ukrainians already work in Ireland (where it is easy for them to gain citizenship), in Portugal (also easy to gain citizenship), in Spain, and in Poland and the Czech Republic.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2016, 10:24:01 PM »
JayH,
We were building Communism slowly, same as Ukraine starts fighting corruption. 20 years to wait, then another 20 years to wait, then to wait some more. I heard that fairytale when I was a child in Brezhnev's times. I totally agree that fighting corruption takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. But full three years is enough time to see some tangible results on the ground and there are none so far in Ukraine. Let's take international corruption index. Russia is doing better. Has Ukraine achieved at least some progress in that index since Maidan? Let's say now it's ranked 130 (while Russia is 119). If in pre Maidan times Ukraine was ranked 135 or something, then we could talk about some progress, though a slow one. But there is none at all.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:47:02 PM by papakota »

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2016, 10:44:28 PM »
Boethius,
I know where Israel is. I'm just saying that a visa free travel is not a sign of a country being European. And I used those three countries as an example. That's all. Of course, if you live in Canada you won't care about a right to reside in EU, but almost all young pro Maidan Ukrainians were hoping to get it (me including, though I'm not so young and not quite a Ukrainian). It's so clear, I don't want to discuss it. UK has an English language that most people speak. Germany is stronger than the UK in terms of economy, but not many speak German. Don't even start about the benefits. In Canada they pay you like 500 bucks, out of those you pay like 350 for a room and then you hardly have money to eat. One can barely survive, let alone building something somewhere. Exploitation of a system is a problem of a system. People are paid to make sure it's not being exploited and if it is, then someone doesn't do their job right. I don't know the statistics, but I assume that most Ukrainians who live in Europe live there out of status. Simply because it's close to impossible to get a right to work in most EU countries. The only EU country where I heard it's easier to get a work permit is Italy.
And the only country in EU that has some special privileges for Ukrainians in that regard is Poland (same as for Russians, though they don't go there usually). I don't want to comment what you said about obtaining a citizenship in some European countries. You live on another planet probably. Show links or at least tell me which specific law you were referring to. Otherwise, it's a lie. I don't know of any laws in EU that make it easier for Ukrainians to get citizenship.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:49:45 PM by papakota »

Offline Boethius

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2016, 10:31:25 AM »
Maidan activists were not naive enough to believe that their protests would lead to the right to live in the EU.  What they wanted was Western concepts of the rule of law and government transparency.  Naive?  Yes.  But what is the alternative?  Nothing other than more of the same.

In Canada, there are various benefit payments.  However, if you are referring to people on welfare, those rates are set provincially, not nationally. 

Ukrainians who have lived in both Ireland and Portugal illegally have been granted citizenship.  I know of Ukrainians in Ireland that were approached to obtain citizenship.  In Portugal, the government has had at least two amnesties to allow them paths to citizenship.  Ireland is now looking at a general amnesty for all illegals.  They did it quietly before, because their goals were different.  I'll post the first Portuguese amnesty.  There have been others.

http://www.fecl.org/circular/1004.htm


Spain also has large numbers of Ukrainian immigrants, mostly from Western Ukraine.  They work in agriculture.  Spain has had several amnesties for illegal immigrants.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/may/09/spain.gilestremlett

« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 10:58:08 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2016, 08:33:23 PM »
I didn't say that they had hoped that their protests would allow them to live in EU, I said that their eventual goal was for Ukraine to be accepted as full EU member.

I know that Canadian welfare amounts vary province by province, but those differences are not significant enough to be mentioned here in details.

I never said that Ukrainians, same as anybody else for that matter, who live out of their status in EU or elsewhere can't adjust their immigration status to become permanent residents and, eventually, citizens. Say, through marriage or amnesty or otherwise. That's not the point. My point was that there is no law, concerning specifically Ukrainians in EU or elsewhere, except in Poland for temporary work permits only. An example of a special law for certain ethnic group in EU would be when Germany accepts some very limited groups of Jews from former Soviet Union to be accepted as permanent residents. Such a law in regard to specifically ethnic Ukrainians or citizens of Ukraine doesn't exist. And there is no reason why it would exist.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 01:47:58 AM by papakota »

Offline ML

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2016, 08:51:50 PM »
The worst possible news for Ukraine . . . by far . . . is Rex Tillerson
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Offline BillyB

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2016, 09:40:29 PM »
The worst possible news for Ukraine . . . by far . . . is Rex Tillerson

I'm willing to give Tillerson a chance. He can be the nice guy to Putin to try and get results. Good cop shows up but if he gets no results, bad cop shows up and that would be Trump playing hard ball. We should remember Trump's words when campaigning when he said if he's President, Russia isn't going to go into Ukraine.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Bounder

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2016, 10:50:00 PM »
Don't worry.  JayH has assured us all that it's just getting better and better for Ukraine and Russia will be vanquished.

Mikhail Gorbachev has been speaking some sense, something we don't hear a lot of these days:

Gorbachev said Russian and U.S. leaders must sit down for talks and "stay at the table until they reach agreement."

"The world needs Russia and the United States to cooperate," Gorbachev said. "Together, they could lead the world ... to a new path."
....
Gorbachev pointed to the productive relationship he built with U.S. President Ronald Reagan during the 1980s and the arms control agreements they reached despite sharp ideological differences.

"We accomplished a lot," he said. "We could talk openly, in a real partner-like way. It's necessary to take that approach again."


Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-13/ap-interview-gorbachev-says-us-was-short-sighted-on-soviets

Offline Hammer2722

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2016, 08:09:42 AM »
I'm willing to give Tillerson a chance. He can be the nice guy to Putin to try and get results. Good cop shows up but if he gets no results, bad cop shows up and that would be Trump playing hard ball. We should remember Trump's words when campaigning when he said if he's President, Russia isn't going to go into Ukraine.

He has made a lot of bold statements and promises, none of which he will keep......
every ship can be a minesweeper at least once...

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2016, 02:56:27 AM »
http://ukropnews24.com/savchenko-was-expelled-from-pace/

Savchenko was expelled from PACE

Ukraine's ex Jeanne d'Arc is a fake hero. Same as everything else with second Maidan. She's crazy, literally. She needs a psychiatric help. Khmelnitskiy, Bandera and Savchenko are heroes of Ukraine. Mass murderer, Nazi collaborator and a crazy b..tch, respectively. With such heroes, I'd rather walk under Lenin monuments in Russia. Savchenko is probably another "baby step of Ukraine towards Europe" as Boethius likes to present it.

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2016, 12:03:41 PM »
You mean the Savchenko who joined the Euromaidan protest and tried to persuade demonstrators not to throw molotov cocktails at riot police? You mean the Savchenko who volunteered to fight for Ukraine as an instructor for the Aidar Volunteer Battalion?  You mean the Savchenko who was kidnapped from Ukraine by Russian security services and illegally imprisoned with completely false charges for nearly two years?  You mean the Savchenko who stood up to Putin by engaging in a hunger strike that nearly cost her her life? Is this the Savchenko you are referring to?

Clearly someone who follows her own conscience, which told her that words are better than weapons (and who would know more than her?), and that the people in Eastern Ukraine have suffered long enough. So her crime was talking to the “enemy”, because SHE was the only one with the courage to do that.  Is that what upsets your Russian sensibility so much, that a woman has shown more courage than any of the men?

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2016, 08:47:30 PM »
http://ukropnews24.com/savchenko-was-expelled-from-pace/

Savchenko was expelled from PACE

Ukraine's ex Jeanne d'Arc is a fake hero. Same as everything else with second Maidan. She's crazy, literally. She needs a psychiatric help. Khmelnitskiy, Bandera and Savchenko are heroes of Ukraine. Mass murderer, Nazi collaborator and a crazy b..tch, respectively. With such heroes, I'd rather walk under Lenin monuments in Russia. Savchenko is probably another "baby step of Ukraine towards Europe" as Boethius likes to present it.

Two things jump out at me from the article - firstly, the English is so poor that I'm not really sure what they're talking about (other than removing Savchenko from PACE), and secondly, there's a sub-headline in the middle of the article which states "Sunset star Savchenko: from hero to “agent of the Kremlin” but which doesn't link to anything or explain what it means.  The complete lack of context makes me wonder if this is an actual Ukrainian publication or a Russian beat-up.

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2016, 10:38:07 PM »
Savchenko is in favor of holding direct talks with the DPR/LPR leadership with the goal of “reducing or dissolving the tension in Eastern Ukraine”.

According to her, there are three steps that need to be made in order to set negotiations the right way:

Step 1: extend sanctions against Russia.

Step 2: “...set direct contacts with “DPR” and “LPR”. We should contact them without any third or fourth party”.

Step 3: “smile to each other”

There are some people in Ukraine who are not in favor of decreasing tensions in Eastern Ukraine, and afraid that they will be losing “control” of the situation if Savchenko’s peace overture succeeds, nor are they in favor of her 3 conditions, as a result they feel it is essential to discredit her, especially after she resigned from Yulia Tymoshenko’s Batkivshchyna party in October.  After that, she was no longer a showpiece pawn of the party.  She has made the decision that the frozen conflict needs to be unfrozen for the sake of the lives that it has and continues to destroy, but that doesn’t fit into the “correct agenda”, so she must be assassinated politically.  If you look at what happened to past Batkivshchyna deputies that got out of line, getting kicked out of PACE is pretty minor, probably just a warning to her...

Offline Trenchcoat

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #95 on: December 24, 2016, 07:06:49 AM »
I think the Ukraine & the other ex-eastern bloc countries are another example of where the EU has stuffed up. There should have been a two tier EU with Entry Level membership given to all Eastern Bloc countries after the break up off the USSR. This would have allowed the EU to improve and co-ordinate & above all stabilise the economy of these countries without having to allow freedom of movement to Full Member countries - only when they were on a par with full member countries should that be allowed. In the case of Ukraine it would have likely averted all the strife it is currently going through as it would mean Russia would be risking entanglement with the EU not just the Ukraine itself. As it currently stands Ukraine is left out there on a limb and I'm surprised Russia has not gone in to pick it off completely already. That's my thoughts anyway.
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Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2016, 01:01:42 PM »
I think the Ukraine & the other ex-eastern bloc countries are another example of where the EU has stuffed up. There should have been a two tier EU with Entry Level membership given to all Eastern Bloc countries after the break up off the USSR. This would have allowed the EU to improve and co-ordinate & above all stabilise the economy of these countries without having to allow freedom of movement to Full Member countries - only when they were on a par with full member countries should that be allowed. In the case of Ukraine it would have likely averted all the strife it is currently going through as it would mean Russia would be risking entanglement with the EU not just the Ukraine itself. As it currently stands Ukraine is left out there on a limb and I'm surprised Russia has not gone in to pick it off completely already. That's my thoughts anyway.
And why a country like Greece should have a right to remain in a privileged echelon of EU? Greece is not ex Eastern bloc country to begin with. And it caused more troubles to EU than probably any other EU member state.

Offline papakota

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2016, 01:12:49 PM »

Two things jump out at me from the article - firstly, the English is so poor that I'm not really sure what they're talking about (other than removing Savchenko from PACE), and secondly, there's a sub-headline in the middle of the article which states "Sunset star Savchenko: from hero to “agent of the Kremlin” but which doesn't link to anything or explain what it means.  The complete lack of context makes me wonder if this is an actual Ukrainian publication or a Russian beat-up.
Are you banned in Google or something? If that article's English wasn't so good, find another article on the issue. There are probably dozens of them online. What there's not to understand? When Savchenko was imprisoned in Russia, she was a hero in Ukraine. And when she finally got back her freedom and returned to Ukraine, she's got marginalized and considered as almost a traitor. It's a political circus. LNR and DNR are Putin's puppets and there is absolutely no reason to talk to them. Ukraine should only talk to puppets' master in Kremlin. And this whole Minsk process is a one big BS that only serves Putin's interests. It freezes up the conflict and that's it. It doesn't solve anything in a long run. And Ukraine now has a semi permanent war in the East.

Offline msmob

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #98 on: December 24, 2016, 01:52:48 PM »
I think the Ukraine & the other ex-eastern bloc countries are another example of where the EU has stuffed up. There should have been a two tier EU with Entry Level membership given to all Eastern Bloc countries after the break up off the USSR. This would have allowed the EU to improve and co-ordinate & above all stabilise the economy of these countries without having to allow freedom of movement to Full Member countries - only when they were on a par with full member countries should that be allowed. In the case of Ukraine it would have likely averted all the strife it is currently going through as it would mean Russia would be risking entanglement with the EU not just the Ukraine itself. As it currently stands Ukraine is left out there on a limb and I'm surprised Russia has not gone in to pick it off completely already. That's my thoughts anyway.


This sort of post is EXACTLY why I get scared 'bout [ clueless ]  folks having the right to vote in the BREXIT referendum ..


TC.. I'm pleased to inform you that your idea was implemented..


When new members join - existing member states can and did/ do impose a time period whereby the freedom to work was only after SEVEN YEARS ..It was called a derogation from the Directive.


Cameron negotiated further derogations - but no-one paid attention ... believing 'we'd'  ''stop immigration'' and ''save money ''


Bulgaria and Romania joined on New Year's Day 2007 and UKIP would have had us believe that Jan 1st 2014 would bring 'zillions' of them - no longer needing work permits ..[ bashes head against brick wall ] ..






 




Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
« Reply #99 on: December 25, 2016, 02:06:50 AM »
Are you banned in Google or something? If that article's English wasn't so good, find another article on the issue. There are probably dozens of them online.

Don't be so obtuse.  Of course I can find other articles - I was quoting this particular one because it's the one which was posted!  How difficult is that for YOU to understand?
 
What there's not to understand? When Savchenko was imprisoned in Russia, she was a hero in Ukraine. And when she finally got back her freedom and returned to Ukraine, she's got marginalized and considered as almost a traitor. It's a political circus. LNR and DNR are Putin's puppets and there is absolutely no reason to talk to them. Ukraine should only talk to puppets' master in Kremlin. And this whole Minsk process is a one big BS that only serves Putin's interests. It freezes up the conflict and that's it. It doesn't solve anything in a long run. And Ukraine now has a semi permanent war in the East.

Again, I'm not arguing with you.  I'm simply quoting the article that was linked - and its lack of clarity and context.  Krimster2's reply was more to the point.

 

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