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Author Topic: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.  (Read 38003 times)

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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2014, 04:36:19 PM »
I mean care as in they REALLY want to have a measure of control over parts of it. 


Well Russian control always brought death of Ukrainians with it. And so die in fight or die without fight.

It is already at the point that if Russia back off right now it will require minimum two generations to move on from what Russia did in Ukraine in last few months. But Russia is not about to back off and Ukrainians do not consider surrendering with or without help from West. 

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2014, 04:36:48 PM »
I think you are lying again (as usual).   


Please point to where I am lying.  I have consistently stated you know nothing of Ukrainian history, or the dynamics of the current conflict, and in each case, you have proven me to be correct.

Quote
To clarify, earlier I believed that Russia was not going to invade (at that time)...and they did not! 


Your were pretty adamant they would not, never (see links below).  Posters here who noted that Russia was already involved (Jay, LT, jone, Faux Pas, missA, to name but a few) were dismissed by you.

Quote
I further believed that Ukraine would negotiate with Russia and a potential future invasion would be averted.  As it stands Ukraine may not negotiate with Russia, in which case they could wind up getting invaded.  We (the USA) have helped to embolden Ukraine, and could very well leave them hanging now.


No, you posted that Ukraine should negotiate with Russia.  Ukraine did so, as was pointed out to you on several occasions.  It even declared a ceasefire, during which the Moscow proxy terrorists shot about four dozen Ukrainian soldiers.

Ukraine has been negotiating with Moscow, as those reading the news know.  EU representatives were always part of those negotiations.  Each promise Putin made was not delivered.  It was clear even to Merkel, who stated she gave Putin every chance, that he was lying and had no intention of honouring any agreements he made.  It was all stalling tactics. 

Quote
All that said, a question can be asked: Why should Ukraine negotiate with Russia?  The answer should be obvious.   


The answer is, it has, and still is (there were negotiations today in Minsk, and will be again in three days), and we see the result.  "Negotiation" does not mean capitulation, which is all that Putin and his ultranationalist cronies will accept.

BTW, Here are some of my "lies" -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg375238#msg375238


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post;quote=371833;topic=17810.300;last_msg=373891

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372789#msg372789

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372789#msg372789

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17860.msg373019#msg373019

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372133#msg372133

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17788.msg370602#msg370602

In each case, you responded with your typical "history is irrelevant, they should negotiate".   Well, no.  History is not irrelevant.  That is what the Ukrainians here have pointed, out, and that is what they know, innately. 

You denied invasion had occurred even as Russian soldiers were dying in Ukraine -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17686.msg370372#msg370372

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17005.msg361921#msg361921

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17354.msg367843#msg367843

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372263#msg372263

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17788.msg370607#msg370607

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17871.msg373249#msg373249

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17758.msg370499#msg370499

You have stated throughout that this was all orchestrated by the US (it wasn't), and that Ukrainians, knowing their history, should go to the negotiating table to hand half their country over to Moscow.  At that point, they may as well hand over the rest, because Moscow will not be satisfied until it controls Kyiv.  Our history, over centuries, in which every square metre of soil is covered in the blood of our ancestors, tells us this. 

You don't give a damn about Ukrainians, or their fate, as your posts here demonstrate, time and again.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 04:42:54 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2014, 04:51:37 PM »


Please point to where I am lying.  I have consistently stated you know nothing of Ukrainian history, or the dynamics of the current conflict, and in each case, you have proven me to be correct.



Your were pretty adamant they would not, never (see links below).  Posters here who noted that Russia was already involved (Jay, LT, jone, Faux Pas, missA, to name but a few) were dismissed by you.



No, you posted that Ukraine should negotiate with Russia.  Ukraine did so, as was pointed out to you on several occasions.  It even declared a ceasefire, during which the Moscow proxy terrorists shot about four dozen Ukrainian soldiers.

Ukraine has been negotiating with Moscow, as those reading the news know.  EU representatives were always part of those negotiations.  Each promise Putin made was not delivered.  It was clear even to Merkel, who stated she gave Putin every chance, that he was lying and had no intention of honouring any agreements he made.  It was all stalling tactics. 



The answer is, it has, and still is (there were negotiations today in Minsk, and will be again in three days), and we see the result.  "Negotiation" does not mean capitulation, which is all that Putin and his ultranationalist cronies will accept.

BTW, Here are some of my "lies" -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg375238#msg375238


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post;quote=371833;topic=17810.300;last_msg=373891

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372789#msg372789

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg372789#msg372789

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17860.msg373019#msg373019

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372133#msg372133

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17788.msg370602#msg370602

In each case, you responded with your typical "history is irrelevant, they should negotiate".   Well, no.  History is not irrelevant.  That is what the Ukrainians here have pointed, out, and that is what they know, innately. 

You denied invasion had occurred even as Russian soldiers were dying in Ukraine -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17686.msg370372#msg370372

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17005.msg361921#msg361921

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17354.msg367843#msg367843

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17839.msg372263#msg372263

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17788.msg370607#msg370607

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17871.msg373249#msg373249

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17758.msg370499#msg370499

You have stated throughout that this was all orchestrated by the US (it wasn't), and that Ukrainians, knowing their history, should go to the negotiating table to hand half their country over to Moscow.  At that point, they may as well hand over the rest, because Moscow will not be satisfied until it controls Kyiv.  Our history, over centuries, in which every square metre of soil is covered in the blood of our ancestors, tells us this. 

You don't give a damn about Ukrainians, or their fate, as your posts here demonstrate, time and again.



You have provided a bunch of links to prior conversations, when looked at in context support what I mentioned in my prior post on this thread. 


I think you are lying when you intentionally misstate the position I have taken, and am taking.


 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2014, 04:57:05 PM »
Well Russian control always brought death of Ukrainians with it. And so die in fight or die without fight.

It is already at the point that if Russia back off right now it will require minimum two generations to move on from what Russia did in Ukraine in last few months. But Russia is not about to back off and Ukrainians do not consider surrendering with or without help from West.


Well if you feel that you have no option but to fight then I guess you gotta do what you gotta do...I thought your people would be better off with Federation, but it is your lives so you all will choose how you want to handle it. 


 I don't think Russia 2014 was coming into Ukraine with the intention of killing the population....having some measure of control of parts of Ukraine...yes.   


Fathertime!   
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Offline southernX

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2014, 04:58:18 PM »
FT, back a few months ago you where pretty confident putin had stolen crimea and that was all he wanted
hence you spoke of no invasion into ukraine , even though evidence showed he was covertly invading and destabilising ukraine

you spoke of ukraine negotiatiing for a win /win

now you say this

Quote
You are correct.  I don't believe that Russia will be rolling tanks through the EU if they get what they want from Ukraine.  I don't believe Putin wants a big war.  I believe this though process you are advocating, is just an effort to get us (The USA) involved in another foreign conflict, which will widen it.  If indeed you are right, and Putin is hell bent on a world war, then the planet is in deep trouble.  I'd err on the side of waiting a little longer though rather than assume the worst.  If Russia starts invading EU countries then it would be dealt with at the time, and it won't matter much that Russia has control over parts of a country like Ukraine. 

putin doesnt want a big war , he wants as little resistance as he can while he invades and steals more of ukraine ,

the US/UK signed the budapest memorandum & happily removed ukraines nuclear weapons , stating they would protect ukraines soveriengty  and at evry turn since 1994 they have publicly supported that position , so why would ukraine not think the US would help ?? as they have claimed they would ??

for over 6 months , everyone ha said lets wait a bit , lets negotiate with russia ,
lets not provocate russia , lets understand the russian influence in ukraine , putin is no hitler, blah blah blah, again you are advocating a wait and see outlook

fact is people and land /lives & familys are being destroyed by putin as everyone but the ukrainians wait and see where putin will stop

he wont stop until the cost becomes too high , he wants it all as much as he can take

for anyone who doubts that , look to history , it has been his and russias pattern over along period of time to aggressivly destabilise neighbours and overtly /covertly annexe portions of their land

ukraine needs help
it needs all our help NOW , nothing short of a major threat will stop putin , even then that may now not be enought to avoid all out war that could escalate

as others have stated if not stoped putin will start to work on other ex soviet states next, like khazakstan etc etc

SX
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 05:00:44 PM by southernX »
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Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2014, 05:15:04 PM »
FT, back a few months ago you where pretty confident putin had stolen crimea and that was all he wanted
hence you spoke of no invasion into ukraine , even though evidence showed he was covertly invading and destabilising ukraine

you spoke of ukraine negotiatiing for a win /win



SX


Well SX, that seems like a fairly reasonable assessment of my original position regarding Crimea... I would have to look back, but I felt  their would be some sort of negotiated agreement regarding the portions of E. Ukraine now in turmoil.  That has not happened, and may not ever happen now. 




putin doesnt want a big war , he wants as little resistance as he can while he invades and steals more of ukraine ,

the US/UK signed the budapest memorandum & happily removed ukraines nuclear weapons , stating they would protect ukraines soveriengty  and at evry turn since 1994 they have publicly supported that position , so why would ukraine not think the US would help ?? as they have claimed they would ??

for over 6 months , everyone ha said lets wait a bit , lets negotiate with russia ,
lets not provocate russia , lets understand the russian influence in ukraine , putin is no hitler, blah blah blah, again you are advocating a wait and see outlook

fact is people and land /lives & familys are being destroyed by putin as everyone but the ukrainians wait and see where putin will stop

he wont stop until the cost becomes too high , he wants it all as much as he can take

for anyone who doubts that , look to history , it has been his and russias pattern over along period of time to aggressivly destabilise neighbours and overtly /covertly annexe portions of their land

ukraine needs help
it needs all our help NOW , nothing short of a major threat will stop putin , even then that may now not be enought to avoid all out war that could escalate

as others have stated if not stoped putin will start to work on other ex soviet states next, like khazakstan etc etc

SX


Well the Budapest memorandum is being treated as toilet paper by all the signers...it isn't the first or last time these sort of agreements are not honored. 


Missameno thinks Russia will be rolling tanks into the EU....if that happens there will be a big war and the world may change drastically for most of us....I believe it would take that sort of event to make us (the USA) react....Ukraine isn't enough to risk a wider or worldwide conflict....imo.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2014, 05:21:31 PM »
By the EU, I suspect missA is referring to the Baltic states.  I don't think that will happen, but Baltic leaders are nervous, and have stated that although Russia may not invade (thanks to NATO, which would defeat Russian forces), they will carry on covert operations, funding proxies and carrying out cyber attacks and such.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline southernX

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2014, 06:28:02 PM »
Quote
Well the Budapest memorandum is being treated as toilet paper by all the signers...it isn't the first or last time these sort of agreements are not honored. 

FT,
when one signatory [russia ] breaks the agreement , it is not ok for supposed western democracys to also trash their responsibilitys they signed up to under that agreement

ukraine expects the US & UK to honour their governments signatorys to that agreement ,
frankly they should ,  & that may not mean troops on the ground , but the supply of military support is a definite imho

just because it isnt popular at home , doesnt mean it isnt morally the right thing to do
too may people have died already because of weak leaders in the west

SX
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #108 on: September 01, 2014, 06:35:53 PM »

You have provided a bunch of links to prior conversations, when looked at in context support what I mentioned in my prior post on this thread. 


I think you are lying when you intentionally misstate the position I have taken, and am taking.


 


Your position, as I understand it, is:

a)  history doesn't matter.  Ukraine should sit down with Russia and negotiate.

However, your position is naive.  Ukraine did sit down with Russia.  Russia isn't interested in a negotiation it wants capitulation.

b)  Russia has won Crimea and has no intention to invade.  You have been proven incorrect on this.  I merely linked all the posts where you stated invasion wasn't in the cards.  Russia has, indeed, invaded.  It did so by proxy, and has done so directly. 


So where is the lie?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #109 on: September 01, 2014, 06:41:12 PM »
Well SX, that seems like a fairly reasonable assessment of my original position regarding Crimea... I would have to look back, but I felt  their would be some sort of negotiated agreement regarding the portions of E. Ukraine now in turmoil.  That has not happened, and may not ever happen now.

You still don't get it, Fathertime!  Putin doesn't want "portions of E. Ukraine" - he wants the whole country!  How can you not see that?  :wallbash:

Missameno thinks Russia will be rolling tanks into the EU....if that happens there will be a big war and the world may change drastically for most of us

Where have you been the last few days?  On Mars?  There are dozens of accounts in the media of Russian tanks rolling through checkpoints and towns throughout the eastern border region.  They even get on TV in little old New Zealand.  How can you possibly not have seen ANY?

....I believe it would take that sort of event to make us (the USA) react....Ukraine isn't enough to risk a wider or worldwide conflict....imo.

Unfortunately, your reaction is exactly what Putin is counting on.  No Western government appears to have the guts to do anything other than issue sanctions.  Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe - if it falls, who is next?

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2014, 07:01:32 PM »
Putin doesn't want "portions of E. Ukraine" - he wants the whole country! 



Putin knows what he's asking for at the negotiating table is not going to be accepted. If anything, Ukraine should be asking Putin to give Crimea back. I agree that this growing war will move past southeast Ukraine. Putin didn't stop at Georgia. Putin didn't stop at Crimea. You better believe if Putin's militia takes the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine, they will go into Kiev which is a short distance away. Moldova could be next. Putin expects sanctions every step of the way and that is an acceptable cost for the land, population and resources he's about to own.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #111 on: September 01, 2014, 07:15:14 PM »
You still don't get it, Fathertime!  Putin doesn't want "portions of E. Ukraine" - he wants the whole country!  How can you not see that?  :wallbash:
nt appears to have the guts to do anything other than issue sanctions.  Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe - if it falls, who is next?


I don't see that, although that may wind up happening anyway.




Where have you been the last few days?  On Mars?  There are dozens of accounts in the media of Russian tanks rolling through checkpoints and towns throughout the eastern border region.  They even get on TV in little old New Zealand.  How can you possibly not have seen ANY?


You seem to be hyperventilating about something other than tanks going into the EU. Ukraine is NOT a part of the EU and also wasn't what MizAmeno was referring to.  How could you possibly think it was?  Does 'little old New Zealand' not teach history to it's peoples?




Unfortunately, your reaction is exactly what Putin is counting on.  No Western government appears to have the guts to do anything other than issue sanctions.  Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe - if it falls, who is next?


I don't think it is about "Guts"...it is a cost-benefit, and risk analysis.  Ukraine is not worth risking a world war over.  There are other countries or circumstances that might be, but not Ukraine, which has been walking hand in hand with Russia for centuries, or as some would say, being dragged kicking and screaming by Russia.


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #112 on: September 01, 2014, 07:21:56 PM »



So where is the lie?
When a person (like you) knowingly omits all the “if’s”  and “then’s” of another’s position and then simply boils it into a one-liner, that is lying, and that is what you almost always do.  In reviewing old threads, many of my discussions involve 'if's and then's.  If the "IF" doesn't happen then the "THEN" no longer applies.    I don't make a guarantee that everything I have written is going to come to pass...never did, unlike a couple others. 

Your position, as I understand it, is:

a)  history doesn't matter.  Ukraine should sit down with Russia and negotiate.

However, your position is naive.  Ukraine did sit down with Russia.  Russia isn't interested in a negotiation it wants capitulation.

[/size][size=78%] [/size]
[/size][size=78%]I don't believe you were in the direct talks between Putin and Poroshenko, nor do you own a transcript....so neither YOU or I actually know for sure what options were discussed.  If both countries are taking hard lines then they are just going to have to fight it out I guess. [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Fathertime!   [/size]
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Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2014, 07:26:08 PM »
FT,
when one signatory [russia ] breaks the agreement , it is not ok for supposed western democracys to also trash their responsibilitys they signed up to under that agreement

ukraine expects the US & UK to honour their governments signatorys to that agreement ,
frankly they should ,  & that may not mean troops on the ground , but the supply of military support is a definite imho

just because it isnt popular at home , doesnt mean it isnt morally the right thing to do
too may people have died already because of weak leaders in the west

SX


Well SX, if we look at this from Russia's perspective we might find that they feel we have broke agreements pertaining to the former Warsaw Pact countries....So once the precedent is set to break agreements, that pendulum swings both ways.


I think the leaders of the west are doing more or less the right thing for now.  Very few of us citizens want to see our young people start dying over Ukraine.  The world will continue spinning if Russia retains some heavy influence in that region. 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2014, 07:33:02 PM »
Fathertime, does a captor care about his captive?  Does a kidnapper care about the one he kidnaps?  I guess you are right in a way, Russians really do care about Ukrainian people.   :cluebat:

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #115 on: September 01, 2014, 07:33:37 PM »
Quote
I don't believe you were in the direct talks between Putin and Poroshenko, nor do you own a transcript....so neither YOU or I actually know for sure what options were discussed.  If both countries are taking hard lines then they are just going to have to fight it out I guess.


Do you read the news?  EU representatives (and now, OSCE representatives) have been present at all the negotiations.  What has been discussed, and what has been promised, has been reported widely.  In fact, Putin's initial promises at the negotiation table is the reason why the EU did not impose sanctions earlier.


At yesterday's meeting, the terrorists demanded autonomous status, special economic status, Russian language status, amnesty for their fighters, special status for their military units, the right to control courts, including the appointment of judges and prosecutors, and oh, Kyiv would pay for rebuilding the entire region.


They are set to meet again on September 5.


How can I take what you post seriously when you are so poorly informed?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2014, 07:57:38 PM »

Do you read the news?  EU representatives (and now, OSCE representatives) have been present at all the negotiations.  What has been discussed, and what has been promised, has been reported widely.  In fact, Putin's initial promises at the negotiation table is the reason why the EU did not impose sanctions earlier.


At yesterday's meeting, the terrorists demanded autonomous status, special economic status, Russian language status, amnesty for their fighters, special status for their military units, the right to control courts, including the appointment of judges and prosecutors, and oh, Kyiv would pay for rebuilding the entire region.


They are set to meet again on September 5.


How can I take what you post seriously when you are so poorly informed?


And what was said when Putin and Poroshenko were alone?  You don’t know, because it is not only not widely reported, but it is not reported at all from what I can see.  I already read what the separatists are saying.     Some of the potentially outrageous demands of the separatists aren't all that important as there is no guarantee Putin is parroting all of their demands and/or doesn't have some things to add or subtract.
It is ok, you don’t have to take my opinion seriously…I find your opinions rather biased and your ‘facts’ not to be trusted, so we can call it about even. 
Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline BillyB

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #117 on: September 01, 2014, 08:21:58 PM »
They are set to meet again on September 5.



Talks are used by the West to show they care. Talks are used by Putin to delay the West's actions and prepare to do more damage in Ukraine. Everybody stated what they wanted previously. Not going to happen. Action speaks louder than words and Putin is doing most of the action while the West wants to talk it's way out of it.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline southernX

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #118 on: September 01, 2014, 08:38:41 PM »

Well SX, if we look at this from Russia's perspective we might find that they feel we have broke agreements pertaining to the former Warsaw Pact countries....So once the precedent is set to break agreements, that pendulum swings both ways.


Fathertime!   

FT. NATO nor the west broke any pacts or agreements ,
there never was any written agreement that stated NATO would not expand /invite /accept other countrys into its membership
and remember these countrys asked to join , implicity meaning they felt unprotected from the russian influence ,

Quote
I think the leaders of the west are doing more or less the right thing for now.  Very few of us citizens want to see our young people start dying over Ukraine.  The world will continue spinning if Russia retains some heavy influence in that region. 


the leaders of the west are weak and have been indecisive on how to stop putin , almost hypnotised by the  double game he plays , they forget what has made/shaped  him into who he is

do you think ukraine   wishes to see its men /citizens dying ?

SX
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #119 on: September 01, 2014, 08:42:35 PM »

And what was said when Putin and Poroshenko were alone?  You don’t know, because it is not only not widely reported, but it is not reported at all from what I can see.  I already read what the separatists are saying.     Some of the potentially outrageous demands of the separatists aren't all that important as there is no guarantee Putin is parroting all of their demands and/or doesn't have some things to add or subtract.
It is ok, you don’t have to take my opinion seriously…I find your opinions rather biased and your ‘facts’ not to be trusted, so we can call it about even. 
Fathertime!   


Every word of the negotiations is recorded.


You can google my facts, and learn that there were negotiations on September 1, the terms the terrorists set out, and that fact the OSCE was there.


I don't lie, I have no reason to, and when I post something as a fact, it is a fact, reported by at least two independent sources.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #120 on: September 02, 2014, 01:27:31 AM »
So you're denying Russian arms and military are in Ukraine fighting a war?
As long as you deny it IS a civil war.

I guess the propaganda machine from Kiev now labels anyone who is not on their side a Russian national. That way they can prepare to either kill or deport them as Endlösung.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #121 on: September 02, 2014, 02:58:03 AM »
You still don't get it, Fathertime!  Putin doesn't want "portions of E. Ukraine" - he wants the whole country!  How can you not see that?  :wallbash:


I don't see that, although that may wind up happening anyway.

I'm glad we agree on one thing, at least!  :rolleyes:

There are dozens of accounts in the media of Russian tanks rolling through checkpoints and towns throughout the eastern border region.  They even get on TV in little old New Zealand.  How can you possibly not have seen ANY?

You seem to be hyperventilating about something other than tanks going into the EU. Ukraine is NOT a part of the EU and also wasn't what MizAmeno was referring to.  How could you possibly think it was?

To clarify what I could have expressed more clearly - the tanks are already rolling through eastern Ukraine.  You still seem to think that Putin will stop once he has control of his "Novorossiya;" that he has no further ambitions regarding conquest.  Those tanks, if not stopped NOW, will rumble right through Ukraine - through Mariupol, Kherson and Odessa and on to Moldova, and through Dnipropetrovsk to Kyiv, on to L'viv and, eventually to Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, all of which are very much part of the EU.

Does 'little old New Zealand' not teach history to it's peoples?

Yes, it does.  I have to assume, from so many of your posts, that you skipped any history lessons relating to eastern Europe because it can't have been relevant to the good ol' USA.


Unfortunately, your reaction is exactly what Putin is counting on.  No Western government appears to have the guts to do anything other than issue sanctions.  Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe - if it falls, who is next?

I don't think it is about "Guts"...it is a cost-benefit, and risk analysis.  Ukraine is not worth risking a world war over.  There are other countries or circumstances that might be, but not Ukraine, which has been walking hand in hand with Russia for centuries, or as some would say, being dragged kicking and screaming by Russia.

Your patronising dismissal of what is happening in Ukraine amazes and disgusts me in equal measure.  So what if Ukraine has been "walking hand in hand with Russia for centuries?"  How can that possibly give Russia (or, probably more correctly, Putin) the right to invade another country, with the stated aim of removing its government and replacing it with his own people?  I don't think even the USA has had the gall to try that in the last hundred years (except maybe in Grenada).  Your position appears to be that what is happening in Ukraine will have absolutely no effect on your life, or on the USA itself as a country, therefore it is none of your business and you will simply carry on with your life as usual.  Fine - you're entitled to feel that way, and I have no problem with you expressing that opinion.

However, DON'T come onto a forum such as this and continue to spout such absolute crap as you have been.  As far as I'm aware (but you can correct me if I'm wrong), you have never been to Ukraine; unlike many members here, you don't have friends or family there (several of whom are in the war zone); and you have absolutely no right to proclaim that everything which Boethius has quoted is a lie, or that Ukrainians such as MsAmeno don't know what they're talking about.  For you to spout off about how Ukrainians feel, and what they should do to appease Putin, simply baffles me.

Just as a hypothetical - what if Russia decided to take back Alaska?  I mean, it was theirs to begin with, wasn't it?  How would you feel if "little green men" suddenly appeared in Anchorage, proclaiming that this was now part of the new "Furthest East" oblast and people speaking English weren't welcome?  Of course it won't happen - but then nobody predicted the invasion of Crimea, or the extent to which Russia has fomented (and assisted) the rebellion in eastern Ukraine.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #122 on: September 02, 2014, 04:47:04 AM »
As long as you deny it IS a civil war.

I guess the propaganda machine from Kiev now labels anyone who is not on their side a Russian national. That way they can prepare to either kill or deport them as Endlösung.

If you remove Russian tanks, equipment, military and support from the theater, there is no war.

Offline pokerintherear

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #123 on: September 02, 2014, 06:08:36 AM »
If you remove Russian tanks, equipment, military and support from the theater, there is no war.

How true and simple. But the "progressive mind" cannot grasp logic.

Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #124 on: September 02, 2014, 06:37:55 AM »
If you remove Russian tanks, equipment, military and support from the theater, there is no war.
They would still fight with ticks and fists.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

 

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