All of the agencies are scammers.

[JayH]

They have a wallet lightening industry in Kiev, Odessa and Nikolaev

For the record ----  the agency "industry"  is not confined to  just those cities -- virtually every city anyone can name is in on the 'game"

Even so -- there are girls that prima facie  would appear to be involved in that game who may be interested in a lot more .It is a 2 way problem ie  very unsuitable guys with ridiculous expectations   . Add to that what  I see as disrespect  for the girls in that guys think that having paid up ( to agency)  that they have "bought" the right to a girl .

That is a summary of why the first thing that need to be looked at when a post appears like this is the guy himself -- and every aspect of him .
None of that is to say dealing with agencies is a good idea -- but -- sometimes - a guy may find he has to for one reason or another.

[msmob]

None of my messages were intended for men that are married to a eastern european woman, much less the women.  They are not objective and will never admit it is not good to pursue them.

Yeah - you know how unhappy they ( our FSU partners ) make us ...we are deluding ourselves ... you da man.. 

I am speaking to the guys that are still looking.  Keep that in mind if you read this far.

I expect entertainment value is at the forefront of their minds -if they are still reading ... ..

I am happily engaged after just 1 1/2 years and 3 trips to 1 city, compared to 7 years and 7 trips to different cities in eastern europe with nothing.

I have nothing to gain by telling any of the single guys what I have. 

..and what does your subjective opinion / experience suggest ?   

How many negative stories can you find online about Philippine women?  And how many about eastern european women??  I rest my case

So, is this about 'agencies' ( who uses THEM, these days?) - or your personal disappointment in E.Europe and 'success' in the Philippines?

Wishing you happiness for the future

[Trenchcoat]

For the record ----  the agency "industry"  is not confined to  just those cities -- virtually every city anyone can name is in on the 'game"

Even so -- there are girls that prima facie  would appear to be involved in that game who may be interested in a lot more .It is a 2 way problem ie  very unsuitable guys with ridiculous expectations   . Add to that what  I see as disrespect  for the girls in that guys think that having paid up ( to agency)  that they have "bought" the right to a girl .

That is a summary of why the first thing that need to be looked at when a post appears like this is the guy himself -- and every aspect of him .
None of that is to say dealing with agencies is a good idea -- but -- sometimes - a guy may find he has to for one reason or another.

Sometimes I think a good proportion of the girls have unrealistic expectations too. Many think all western guys are fabulously rich and will be able to afford them the lifestyle they have in mind.

I think for many years there have been a tendency for misunderstanding between WM & FSW. Not just the odd cultural misunderstanding but in temperament of the two sides. Like said fir some the difference isn't that great depending on their personality. I think though we are only just now with help from guys likes of Krimster who is a native able to make much in roads into understanding this temperament issues. I think overly the years many WM/FSW relationships break down with both sides being left befuddled as to why it broke down but each blaming the other with a sense of ill feeling.

That's not taking anything away from the fact of course that insincere girls exist that badly take advantage of WM just as no doubt some WM have insincere intentions too.

[Boethius]

You're not talking about dogs.  Temperaments are not determined by ethnicity.  I've known very calm UW, very meek UW, very fiery UW, and sorts in between.  To suggest that all women of a particular ethnic background have the same temperament is as stupid as saying they all have blue eyes.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

[DCcowboy]

  ya know I am just just not seeing it. I have communicated with probably 100 RW, and all have been very pleasant and polite. Granted they might be totally different in person, but I just can't see all of them being this way.

[SteveInBoston]

I am happily engaged after just 1 1/2 years and 3 trips to 1 city, compared to 7 years and 7 trips to different cities in eastern europe with nothing.

Interesting.

I am happily engaged after 5 months and 1 trip, and it cost me maybe $3000, including the ring (bought a .25 carat in Lviv).

I am on my 3rd trip now, spending 2 months with my lady who is the most wonderful woman I have ever met (I know, honeymoon stage, but still...)

K1 visa was approved 2 weeks ago, now waiting for NVC case number and helping her with the embassy application prep.

So...maybe only 149,999,999 scammers...

[Trenchcoat]

You're not talking about dogs.  Temperaments are not determined by ethnicity.  I've known very calm UW, very meek UW, very fiery UW, and sorts in between.  To suggest that all women of a particular ethnic background have the same temperament is as stupid as saying they all have blue eyes.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

No not dogs, more like incredibly stubborn mules, lol

I know some are different by as a national characteristic more are head strong temperment than any other charteristic.

Take Welsh people for example for them I would say laid back. For Irish take the example of Mobers - argumentative to the last

[Boethius]

Those are stereotypes.  They don't apply to every Welsh or Irish person. 


Having lived and experienced two countries, my conclusion is, one sees the same archetypes everywhere.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

[Trenchcoat]

ya know I am just just not seeing it. I have communicated with probably 100 RW, and all have been very pleasant and polite. Granted they might be totally different in person, but I just can't see all of them being this way.

Nearly all are pleasant and polite, again a national characteristic of UW. Some though become difficult if you hit an area of disagreement. They can see the world their way and that's it doesn't matter what the guy says. How would you deal with that if you got it from your lady and didn't want to go down the path she wanted? Bit to outright reject it would create a ruckass with her and send the relationship south.

[Trenchcoat]

Those are stereotypes.  They don't apply to every Welsh or Irish person. 


Having lived and experienced two countries, my conclusion is, one sees the same archetypes everywhere.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Agreed.

[joenaiz]

I'm a tall guy and needed more expensive seating on planes for one, and I didn't want to stay in dumps.  Not much went to any agencies and I never subscribed to anything.  It was mostly travel expenses and logging.  All that was combined in gifts, eating out, scammers, and everything.  Though scammers were not much because I'm not so gullible and avoided most of the ploys.  After everything, it was probably more than that. I paid for maybe 2 letters to be sent.  The serious girls will never use these anyway.  Any letters you pay for, the girls are getting part of the money they generate, so that is a huge SCAM being perpetrated by even USA agencies!!  I know because I found some of the girls on VK and they would never answer me, after sending me letters I would have had to pay to read.  One of the girls I even knew from VK!  But when she not answer on VK anymore after she tried to get me on the paid site, even though I could tell she read mine and had always answered before.  She knew her scam cat was out of the bag.  Someone should do a class action suit and sues these bastards![/size]

[/size]Yes.  The cultures are vastly different!   The Eastern European people seem very indifferent about Americans or don't like us.  I found the guys to be much nicer than the women, but I wasn't looking for a guy   The Philippines love Americans because we rescued them during the war.  The girls are much nicer and easier going and will make much better wives.   I can tell they were much more honest and loyal too.  Still,  look out for scammers, but use common sense and you will be okay.

[Trenchcoat]

 I do kind of think OP may have a point to some extent. As some have admitted here a dating scam industry is practically in every big city in Ukraine. I think for a newbie it's difficult to spot the bad ones and not talking about the obvious scammers but more girls with their own agenda, those out to make a few bob.

What I wonder is if OP has read up much here over the years or did he just keep making the same newbie mistakes, never learning nor looking for help here online or even You Tube?

I get the impression that the OP seems to have just been firing away hoping to get lucky without trying to find an intelligent away around it. I think there is a danger that doing it that way you stand the risk of just being passed around between an insincere crowd of women.

There is also the type of woman OP was going for. If they were all young hotties well most of them want presents for favours given I think it is probably how they are at that age and prettyness level.

I don't disagree that FSU dating for WM can be a hard task at times. Filipino women are probably on balance an easier task. I get the impression they just want a more comfortable lifestyle. FSW tend not to quite in the same economic boat as Filipino women though with the Ukrainian economy going south and the Russian threat maybe they may become more amieniable to any WM and disregard any other thoughts.

[Trenchcoat]

I'm a tall guy and needed more expensive seating on planes for one, and I didn't want to stay in dumps.  Not much went to any agencies and I never subscribed to anything.  It was mostly travel expenses and logging.  All that was combined in gifts, eating out, scammers, and everything.  Though scammers were not much because I'm not so gullible and avoided most of the ploys.  After everything, it was probably more than that. I paid for maybe 2 letters to be sent.  The serious girls will never use these anyway.  Any letters you pay for, the girls are getting part of the money they generate, so that is a huge SCAM being perpetrated by even USA agencies!!  I know because I found some of the girls on VK and they would never answer me, after sending me letters I would have had to pay to read.  One of the girls I even knew from VK!  But when she not answer on VK anymore after she tried to get me on the paid site, even though I could tell she read mine and had always answered before.  She knew her scam cat was out of the bag.  Someone should do a class action suit and sues these bastards![/size]

[/size]Yes.  The cultures are vastly different!   The Eastern European people seem very indifferent about Americans or don't like us.  I found the guys to be much nicer than the women, but I wasn't looking for a guy   The Philippines love Americans because we rescued them during the war.  The girls are much nicer and easier going and will make much better wives.   I can tell they were much more honest and loyal too.  Still,  look out for scammers, but use common sense and you will be okay.

Joe, I think it may help clear this up if you tell us what sites did you use mainly?

[joenaiz]

I didn't use any sites mainly.  I started with AFA, but after one trip with them, I quickly abandoned them.  There were 25 guys on my trip and at the end about 23 were pissed because they knew they'd been taken.  I researched just about everyone out there at the time and used various things, too many to list here.  Also talked to a lot of guys that have been there.  Stay off the agency sites!  You cannot get anything good that way.  Don't pay to open single letters!  Or for the so-called translations that anyone can do online for free.  I have no good advice for FSU or Eastern Europe, except to stay away.
 
I'm glad my thread got so much activity, but I have business to run and I paid a lot to learn what I know.  Do your own research and make your own choices.  That is what I did and there is nothing like first hand experience.  Just find a serious girl or 2 before you travel there.   It will not be hard to do that in the PH, like it is in EE or FSU.  If I had started there, I would have been married long ago.  But the EE girls did make the PH girls much more attractive and me to really appreciate a sweet, kindhearted, affectionate, and serious girl.  My biggest problem in the PH was deciding on which one.  Many were phony, but many more were real than in EE.  It was just nice to be a rock star for a change.   Much better to be pursued than trying to catch one.   The agencies try to make you feel that way, but it is all lies.  In the Philippines it is real.  Work your a$$ off in another country if you want, but I'd have a hard time trusting any of the EE FSU girls after getting to know so many and how they are.  PH is no guarantee, but then where is there one??  I'm just saying your chances are much better.
 
I hope I helped at least one guy in all this.  Sorry for any feelings I might have hurt, but many men agree with me.  I guess the same could be said of those who don't.  So do your own research and make your own choices.  I was just trying to help squash some of the BS going around the net about all this and stop the damage to lonely men who just want to find a girl to love.  They are being prayed upon by people who only care about making money off these poor guys and don't care how many they hurt to get it.  None of them post any percentages of their success rate of guys who try their agency, because if they did, anyone with half a brain would run.
 
Best Wishes!  And Merry Christmas Everyone!

[Trenchcoat]

I didn't use any sites mainly.  I started with AFA, but after one trip with them, I quickly abandoned them.  There were 25 guys on my trip and at the end about 23 were pissed because they knew they'd been taken.  I researched just about everyone out there at the time and used various things, too many to list here.  Also talked to a lot of guys that have been there.  Stay off the agency sites!  You cannot get anything good that way.  Don't pay to open single letters!  Or for the so-called translations that anyone can do online for free.  I have no good advice for FSU or Eastern Europe, except to stay away.
 
I'm glad my thread got so much activity, but I have business to run and I paid a lot to learn what I know.  Do your own research and make your own choices.  That is what I did and there is nothing like first hand experience.  Just find a serious girl or 2 before you travel there.   It will not be hard to do that in the PH, like it is in EE or FSU.  If I had started there, I would have been married long ago.  But the EE girls did make the PH girls much more attractive and me to really appreciate a sweet, kindhearted, affectionate, and serious girl.  My biggest problem in the PH was deciding on which one.  Many were phony, but many more were real than in EE.  It was just nice to be a rock star for a change.   Much better to be pursued than trying to catch one.   The agencies try to make you feel that way, but it is all lies.  In the Philippines it is real.  Work your a$$ off in another country if you want, but I'd have a hard time trusting any of the EE FSU girls after getting to know so many and how they are.  PH is no guarantee, but then where is there one??  I'm just saying your chances are much better.
 
I hope I helped at least one guy in all this.  Sorry for any feelings I might have hurt, but many men agree with me.  I guess the same could be said of those who don't.  So do your own research and make your own choices.  I was just trying to help squash some of the BS going around the net about all this and stop the damage to lonely men who just want to find a girl to love.  They are being prayed upon by people who only care about making money off these poor guys and don't care how many they hurt to get it.  None of them post any percentages of their success rate of guys who try their agency, because if they did, anyone with half a brain would run.
 
Best Wishes!  And Merry Christmas Everyone!

Joe, that helps get a bit better idea. Well with AFA your talking about the tour. Many guys here wouldn't touch a AFA tour or probably any other dating tour with a barge pole. I have never been on one but am intrigued, I know on the documentary 'Love Me' they did a few years ago a couple of the guys found their other half trough them. Others say tours are full of insincere women, agency girls and get little joy out of them. The AFA website is PPL (Pay Per Letter) which is seen as a big no no to do and I would agree.

Most guys here use free online dating sites such as Fdating, Russian Personals or pay monthly subscription such as Elena's Models. Did you try any of them or just use the physical walk in off high street agencies?

Serious girls can be found on free online dating websites. Insincere ones also and of course most girls will have an agenda it's why their on an International Dating Site. That agenda may not be a problem I think of you can find a girl who is into you then her original agenda will become secondary if at all.

I think it will be useful to you to discuss the details of what you encountered here to put your mind at rest. Most of the long term members here have successfull relationships/marriage with FSW and 10 years or more experience down that route. Some may of course get a bit upset as any criticism can come as a criticism against their world. I think you'll find though that by being a bit more specific as you have done here you'll understand a lot better from them what was happening in your case.

I meanwhile don't knock that the Philopines worked for you and hey maybe it might even work for me in the end. I appreciate your input on that it is certainly a consideration many of us on this search should bear in mind.

[ML]

I'm a tall guy and needed more expensive seating on planes for one, and

I would have quite happily gone for a gal in the Philippines.
I was there when in US Navy as a young man and really liked the people.

However, only one in a thousand gals there would be 5 foot 6 inch or taller, so I decided not to go that route.

Since you say you are taller, I guess you are going to accept a Mutt and Jeff type of physical arrangement.

[BillyB]

I have checked out many of them, none of them are honest, and only care about making money.  They are dealing the chance of beautiful girls that you have almost no chance getting.  I took 7 trips there and never even got close to finding a serious pretty girl. Only the unattractive ones are serious and some of them even aren't.  Thousands of guys say the same thing.  Even if you are lucky enough to find a pretty girl that will marry you, the divorce rate there is 80% and they will probably not stay with you.  The are raised to disrespect men.  Lying is also a way of life over there.  They have no trouble at all using men as doormats and have no remorse.  They blame you for being stupid enough to believe them. 

You've been looking for love in all the wrong places. You could've avoided visiting many of those girls saving time and money if you correctly identified their character during correspondence.

[DCcowboy]

Nearly all are pleasant and polite, again a national characteristic of UW. Some though become difficult if you hit an area of disagreement. They can see the world their way and that's it doesn't matter what the guy says. How would you deal with that if you got it from your lady and didn't want to go down the path she wanted? Bit to outright reject it would create a ruckass with her and send the relationship south.

Marriage to any women is about give and take, and being willing to work through differences.

[2tallbill]

ya know I am just just not seeing it. I have communicated with probably 100 RW,
and all have been very pleasant and polite. Granted they might be totally different in person,
but I just can't see all of them being this way.

Most people are polite when first meeting someone, it's human nature.

There are cRaZy FSUW, there are calm, cool and collected FSUW. I've met an amazingly beautiful
girl who was dumber than a bag of hammers. I met a girl who asked me if we got the moon at
night where I lived, because it would be so sad if we didn't.

There are Russian women who are as honest as the day is long and there are Russian women
who can't say 10 words without lying. There are Russian women who can sing like angels and
there are Russian women who make the neighbors dog cry when they sing.

They have every type and personality good, bad and indifferent.

[krimster2]

joenaiz,

When Shakespeare wrote “the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves, that we are underlings.”.  he should have included your name as well...

going the agency route is simply an exercise in bad judgment
an analogy would be hunting
instead of developing and utilizing your OWN hunting skills
you decided to depend on someone else, a “guide” as a "shortcut to success"
and the guide and those associated turned out to be a scam and a fraud (surprise!)
so you didn’t “bag” anything, no trophy wife for YOU!
as a consequence of YOUR FAILURE (own it, don’t blame it on someone else!)
you adopt the defeatist claim that hunting in Ukraine is “too hard”
for YOU maybe, but look at the guys who’ve posted photos of their UA wives on this board
myself included
so some of US know how to hunt in Ukraine
just not YOU!
hopefully others can learn from YOUR mistake
so thanks for posting about it

BTW, been to Philippines in 1980, was still in my teens
took the bus from Clark AFB to Manila!
Wow!  amazing place!
I was dressed in "civvies"
was hit on" by countless B-girls, learned to ignore them
the whole trip I counted one really beautiful woman
the thought never occurred to me to want to marry one of them
I seriously doubt you'll post a pic of your intended bride here...
when I lived in Ukraine, I used to see at least a dozen unique women every day who looked like super models

[GQBlues]

<snip>Best Wishes!  And Merry Christmas Everyone!

Same to you!

joenaiz, as a Filipino and married to a Russian woman for over a decade, and one who is more than familiar with Filipinas, I am the anti-thesis to your sentiments. But I will not question or debate your feelings/experience as those are your own. How can anyone refute what 'proved to be right for you' - just as it is for me.

The only thing people need to be constantly reminded of is there's no absolution in generalities. Women are women anywhere.

As for agencies 'making money'. Isn't that why they're in the biz to begin with? I have never stumbled upon any businesses who established their base for the sheer purpose of niceties. Discretion and diligence lies upon the consumer.

[Trenchcoat]

I think Joe means the 'agencies' went beyond the usual making money through operating in a straight up manner as most businesses do to outright scamming to part client from cash and not deliver anything close to the real deal they promised. We all know on here that is the size of most 'agencies' in Ukraine and elsewhere. Some have managed to meet their other half through an agency take Blighty for instance just as some have met through PPL websites. These though are in the minority and most guys come to grief going this route with severely diminished odds of it working. I think Blighty even says time over again it's not the route he would have gone/against all good advice.

I would be interested to hear how the AFA tour went down Joe. I know on the documentary 'Love Me' they situated it in night clubs and got loads of women in and it looked really raving like heaven for guys full of hot women where a guy could get lucky (or perhaps unlucky also) with many hot women to delight the few guys there. I'm guessing now that they pulled out all the stops for that and the reality for most tours is a lot less full on.

Stuff I have seen online make me think it more commonly takes place in reception rooms with a few tables of women sat down and a buffet type of set up. So far more sedate and I'm guessing controlled by the AFA agency. Now let me guess also that a lot of those women are more like agency girls/employees even and prettish girls just invited along for a free meal. So I'm guessing that those girls aren't really interested in a foreign guy but are just there to look pretty, smile and have polite friendly conversation with the guy. To which end it will end up an 'I've met some nice girls tonight, had pleasant conversation with many a nice girl, and who knows maybe we will meet up in future or though I haven't quite met anyone to be in a relationship with'. Tour over, Am I right?

[2tallbill]

I'm a tall guy and needed more expensive seating on planes for one

The average height of a woman in the Philippines is 151.8 cm (4' 11.8")
Which means that half are shorter than that.

[msmob]

The average height of a woman in the Philippines is 151.8 cm (4' 11.8")
Which means that half are shorter than that.

No, Beel - it doesn't

My God, but you had some terrible teachers ...

[krimster2]

“the average height of a woman in the Philippines is 151.8 cm (4' 11.8")
Which means that half are shorter than that. “



that’s still pretty tall!
I saw a woman from the Philippines who was about three feet tall!
she lost both her legs in an accident and became a paraplegic
her name was “Consuelo”