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Author Topic: Retirement in Ukraine  (Read 32206 times)

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Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2011, 10:52:59 AM »

Quote
Is this truly what she wants? Call me cynical, but I have my doubts. Her children are still young, I expect that she would prefer that they finish their schooling in the United States

American passport is a different story of course, but schooling, actually, is better there. I mean, if we are talking about secondary education. And even universities are not that bad. And american income (even a modest retirement income) can buy an even better quality of the education. And in general, living in Ukraine on american income -isnt it what every ukrainian woman dreams of? Think about the girlfriends.. they will literally die of envy.
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Offline Misha

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2011, 11:05:52 AM »

American passport is a different story of course, but schooling, actually, is better there. I mean, if we are talking about secondary education. And even universities are not that bad. And american income (even a modest retirement income) can buy an even better quality of the education. And in general, living in Ukraine on american income -isnt it what every ukrainian woman dreams of? Think about the girlfriends.. they will literally die of envy.


I am not really all that convinced that the schooling is better there. True, it is different, with more emphasis on rote memorization. However, different does not equal better. However, it is easier to be better than the United States given how badly the country generally ranks in global rankings of quality of education and how well students test in math, science, reading and writing. As for universities, the ones in the FSU rarely rank in the top 200 or even 500 in global rankings.


As for the question of the passport, don't you have to live a set amount of time in the USA to get citizenship? Would not the children have to be sponsored before a certain age to give them access to American citizenship? I don't know the answer to these questions, but I expect that they would have to live a certain amount of time in the USA and relatively quickly to do this.

Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2011, 11:21:46 AM »

I am not really all that convinced that the schooling is better there.

 I am. I  brought my child here when he was 13. He is turning 24 next month and fixing to go to a law school next year (this is one part of american education that I am still not familiar with - grad schools). Anyway, in 10 years he has studied in middle- and (public)high schools in 4 states, in 1 community college, and in a university. Also he has experienced european education on several occasions as we were able to send him to study there for a while. So as you may see, I have a pretty good understanding of strengths and weaknesses of american system compared to russian. And if I could repeat my experience I would try to keep my child in a Russian school a while longer, because, to my opinion, my son has never had a proper challenge here, in the states.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 11:24:14 AM by Donna_Pedro »
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Offline Misha

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2011, 11:49:14 AM »

 I am. I  brought my child here when he was 13. He is turning 24 next month and fixing to go to a law school next year (this is one part of american education that I am still not familiar with - grad schools). Anyway, in 10 years he has studied in middle- and (public)high schools in 4 states, in 1 community college, and in a university. Also he has experienced european education on several occasions as we were able to send him to study there for a while. So as you may see, I have a pretty good understanding of strengths and weaknesses of american system compared to russian. And if I could repeat my experience I would try to keep my child in a Russian school a while longer, because, to my opinion, my son has never had a proper challenge here, in the states.


Yet, according to the OECD PISA rankings Russia comes in 43rd: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf

Offline Muzh

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2011, 12:43:45 PM »
<tweet> (Blowing the whistle)
 
Time out.
 
The FSU teaches better study habits than the US. US has better colleges than the FSU.
 
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Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2011, 12:48:11 PM »
Ok, lets start throwing links at each other.  ;D  Here, National center for education statistics (see page 4, for example - math performance in the 8th grade, or page 5 - science performance)
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs99/1999081.pdf
 
Statistical data on these matters could be quite different depending on the method of approach. Anyway, my personal opinion, based on  my extensive personal experience, that secondary education in my country is far better than here.
 
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Offline Misha

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2011, 12:55:44 PM »
Statistical data on these matters could be quite different depending on the method of approach. Anyway, my personal opinion, based on  my extensive personal experience, that secondary education in my country is far better than here.


We will have to agree to disagree then. I would say that each system has their advantages and disadvantages (comparing Canada and Russia).

Offline ML

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2011, 01:35:44 PM »
Anyway, my personal opinion, based on  my extensive personal experience, that secondary education in my country is far better than here.

But does Misha have a valid point?  That many countries outside USA focus on standard questions with rote memorization.  This helps explain why oriental countries and some others score much higher on standardized exams.  The school systems there teach to the exams rather than a broader education which allows for creativity.

Not saying which is best for the long run and for economic development of a country . . . but there are pros and cons to be considered.

Another taboo aspect is that USA standardized scores are aggregates of very diverse groups living in USA, some cultures of which discourage excellence by the students.  This is not an issue in many other countries with homogenized populations that encourage excellence in the classroom.
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Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2011, 02:32:08 PM »
But does Misha have a valid point? 

I am sure he does. Our approach is more academic. American is more "hands-on".  But in general things like "no child left behind" and a lot of political correctness at school greatly effect the quality of education, reducing demands. In their efforts to please  minorities,  they are making it less challenging for the rest of the children.  I remember when my son was in the 10th grade the school counselor refused to let him take math, english and two science classes in one semester, suggesting that he would take a pottery class instead, and only after my visit to school, she agreed to let him take all these "hard" classes, with my clear understanding that "if my son had bad grades I would not blame school for it". In Russia the school challenged my child with no help from me. Here I had to apply considerable efforts (and pay money) to have him properly challenged.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 02:45:21 PM by Donna_Pedro »
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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2011, 02:56:55 PM »

I am sure he does. Our approach is more academic. American is more "hands-on".  But in general things like "no child left behind" and a lot of political correctness at school greatly effect the quality of education, reducing demands. In their efforts to please  minorities,  they are making it less challenging for the rest of the children.  I remember when my son was in the 10th grade the school counselor refused to let him take math, english and two science classes in one semester, suggesting that he would take a pottery class instead, and only after my visit to school, she agreed to let him take all these "hard" classes, with my clear understanding that "if my son had bad grades I would not blame school for it". In Russia the school challenged my child with no help from me. Here I had to apply considerable efforts (and pay money) to have him properly challenged.


IMHO, all quite true. There has for the last 20 years been a systematic "dumbing down" of the public school system in the US. No Child Left Behind only compounded the problem. It is a different approach that has been failing miserably IMHO. Children should be allowed to fail and succeed without government involvement disguised as protecting the psyche.


There are alternatives and those being private schools. Most are expensive and worth it. The "free education" sounds great in theory but, you do get what you pay for.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2011, 03:14:36 PM »
You bet demographics have a huge impact in public schools...worst when you have the government meddling with the educational system. If you can't enroll your kids in private schools, then make sure they choose a public schools that have a large population of Asian kids, LOL. It isn't a coincidence the top schools in the country have just that.
 
http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-high-schools
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Offline Misha

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2011, 03:21:43 PM »
Our approach is more academic. American is more "hands-on".


Again, the two systems are different. As you certainly know, after the 9th grade, students in Russia are given the option of continuing their education in vocational training schools where they can complete their grades 10 and 11. Thus, you filter out the less academically inclined students to the "hands-on" training.

Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2011, 04:15:57 PM »
Quote
Again, the two systems are different.

 I am not argueing this point. Threy are different.
 
Quote
continuing their education in vocational training schools

 
I remember our school teacher used to scare us with that "option". "If you dont do good on your tests - she used to say - you will go to PTU(vocational traning school), with all those debils and morons, or worse - to the military".  :D
Here the approach is different. They dont push students to excel. They dont motivate them to get higher education. Of course if everybody is an engineer or a doctor, who will serve you food in restaurants? But from a college-minded mother's prospective, I want my child to be properly challenged at school. And Russian school, IMO, gives more in this regard.
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Offline Misha

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2011, 04:24:21 PM »
Bright students do well everywhere as do motivated students with educated parents. The hard part is teaching the mediocre and getting them to excel or capturing the less-than-motivated students. I am not convinced Russia does any better than Canada in this regard.

Offline Donna_Pedro

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2011, 05:10:29 PM »
Quote
I am not convinced Russia does any better than Canada in this regard

 
I dont know about Canada, but I can say for US vs Russia. In Russia the program in each subject is the same for everybody. They dont care if you like math or not, you are taking it on the same level with everybody else. And if memory serves my 10th grade math was equivalent to american Calculus 2 (integration/differentiation etc). I was never super bright in math. I struggled big time. And I dont use math in my everyday life (at least not at that level), but I am glad I had it at school, as math develops your brain, increases abilities for logical thinking and in general widen your mental horizons.  Here my son had a choice - to keep taking math to a Cal2 level or stop at Algebra 1.  If it was not for his mother, brainwashing him daily on the importance of education, i dont know what  he would choose. I dont think that every teenager is mature enough on his own (without parental input)to pick Calculus 2 if he could pick Algebra1 and relax. American school leaves motivation to parents. Instead it provides politically correct brainwashing. I would prefer for them to motivate my child and leave brainwashing to me.
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Offline Misha

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2011, 05:40:34 PM »
I dont know about Canada, but I can say for US vs Russia. In Russia the program in each subject is the same for everybody.


The difference is as follows: in Canada, students will study in the same high school but some students will take courses that will lead to university while others will take courses so they can get a high school diploma and then go off to do some vocational training or perhaps college. In Russia, the students who want to go to university will go to grade 10, the others won't. It is the same thing, just different means of streaming students. In my case, my parents did not have to motivate me as I wanted to go to university. There was no way that I would stay on the farm to shovel more manure  ;) Comparing the students who make it to university in Russia and those who make it to Canada, I can't really say that the former are automatically better than the latter...

Offline Eduard

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Re: Retirement in Ukraine
« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2011, 06:42:12 PM »
American school leaves motivation to parents. Instead it provides politically correct brainwashing. I would prefer for them to motivate my child and leave brainwashing to me.
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