The Propaganda War

[AkMike]

Yet on the other hand there is ample evidence of Russian Army involvement in the SE of Ukraine that is ignored by the pro Russian supporters.

http://en.informnapalm.org/category/russian-military-assessment/

http://www.bellingcat.com/category/news/uk-and-europe/

[Belvis]

One fake generated a few pages of discussions. OK, I'll give some explanatory notes on video Taz posted.
Full video here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84503534&v=XksDGeAbJ7g&x-yt-ts=1421914688

Lugansk militia has dislodged 20th battalion of Ukrainian army out of Krasny Partisan village. Then collected all captured, wounded and dead in one place. Then filmed them to identify victims, because Ukrainian army is notorious in missing its soldiers. BTW, militia is doing good work filming captives. It's guarantee they will be alive.

[AkMike]

And yet there seems to be bullet holes right behind the bodies in wall right at the chest height area.

 It still looks like cold blooded murder!

[Steamer]

How do you suggest we get your guy to stop?

You're not going to. In fact if Russia wants to have a land connection to Crimea I believe that we'll see operations along the route pick up quickly.

[fathertime]

Fathertime,

                 Can you supply evidence of young Russian men being killed by pro US involvement ?

Photos or videos of the US troops killing Russians in Ukraine would be useful,or maybe just photos or videos of lethal US weapons/military equipment being used by Ukrainians to kill those invading young Russian men you're so worried for.

I've missed that, but hey, I only live and work in the region. Perhaps you'd be so kind as point it out.

I'm afraid my post didn't come out the way I intended.  I was not attempting to state that the US was directly involved in killing people...as I'm happy we have stayed out of the battle (insofar as I can tell).  My intent was to state that Pro Western forces and their supporters have also likely committed barbarous acts, yet (some) posters here applaud (or ignore) those acts. 


Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my post.


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

You're not going to. In fact if Russia wants to have a land connection to Crimea I believe that we'll see operations along the route pick up quickly.

That's not what I asked.

[Steamer]

That's not what I asked.

So what?

[Brasscasing]

Propaganda 101. This is how you prepare your civilian and military populations for a war with NATO...you tell them it's NATO they've been fighting all along...

Putin: Ukraine army is NATO legion aimed at restraining Russia

..."The Ukrainian army is essentially a ‘NATO legion’ which doesn’t pursue the national interests of Ukraine, but persists to restrict Russia, President Vladimir Putin says.

“We often say: Ukrainian Army, Ukrainian Army. But who is really fighting there? There are, indeed, partially official units of armed forces, but largely there are the so-called ‘volunteer nationalist battalions’,” said Putin.

He added that the intention of Ukrainian troops is connected with “achieving the geopolitical goals of restraining Russia.” Putin was addressing students in the city of St. Petersburg.

According to Putin, the Ukrainian army “is not an army, but a foreign legion, in this case a foreign NATO legion, which, of course, doesn’t pursue the national interests of Ukraine.”

Kiev has been reluctant to find political solutions to the crisis in eastern Ukraine and only used the ceasefire to regroup its forces, the president stressed.

“Unfortunately official Kiev authorities refuse to follow the path of a peaceful solution. They don’t want to resolve [the crisis] using political tools,” Putin said, adding that first Kiev authorities had first used law enforcement, then security services and then the army in the region.

“It is essentially a civil war [in Ukraine]. In my view, many in Ukraine already understand this,” Putin added.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has reacted to President Putin’s words, calling his statement “nonsense.”

"The statement that there is a NATO legion in Ukraine is nonsense. There is no NATO legion," Stoltenberg told reporters."...

http://rt.com/news/226319-putin-nato-russia-ukraine/

Brass

[Gator]

Crimean News

CNBC today showed a small clip of the Russian "special police" closing a TV station named ATR in Crimea.  CNBC says ATR was the only remaining station "critical of the Russian-backed Crimean government."

The special police arrived en masse, some wearing a mask.  The clip showed a pretty reporter with microphone in her hand conducting an interview,  the special service barged in, spoke a few words to the reporter, the reporter rolled her eyes, and a man in black leather jacket  blocked the camera.

I look forward to Doll's and Belvis's explanation.  Maybe ATR did not pay its gas bill.  Maybe the police were stopping propaganda by ATR. 

[Gator]

The group raiding and closing the station is referred to as "Russian security forces."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/26/crimean-tv-station-raid-russia_n_6546008.html

It seems ATR targeted the Tatar community, as its reporters are Tatar.  The Tatars have been getting a bad deal for a century. 



OSCE's position:

http://www.osce.org/fom/136221


10 hours of ATR broadcasting:

[AC]

Crimean News

CNBC today showed a small clip of the Russian "special police" closing a TV station named ATR in Crimea.  CNBC says ATR was the only remaining station "critical of the Russian-backed Crimean government."

The special police arrived en masse, some wearing a mask.  The clip showed a pretty reporter with microphone in her hand conducting an interview,  the special service barged in, spoke a few words to the reporter, the reporter rolled her eyes, and a man in black leather jacket  blocked the camera.

I look forward to Doll's and Belvis's explanation.  Maybe ATR did not pay its gas bill.  Maybe the police were stopping propaganda by ATR.

Here is the real reason.  They are trying to eliminate all evidence that there were any objections or protests against the referendum (the one which Girkin admits the majority did not want, and was conducted at gunpoint).

excerpt
"In an emotional video posted on YouTube, deputy director Liliya Budzhurova said that armed men from Russia's Investigative Committee and counterterrorism officials appeared at the station early Monday. Budzhurova said they had seized equipment, including servers of archival footage showing the February 2014 demonstration against the Russian takeover, effectively shutting down the channel's broadcast operations.

[calmissile]

Yep, them Russians sure are nice people.   

[Anotherkiwi]

What are you griping about now?  It seems clear that Russians, and pro-Russian's in Ukraine are being killed and suffering...But that is a good thing according to some!   

Since when is it good?

Do you need to be reminded how many civilians have died in the Donbas conflict?  It's now believed to be over 5,000, and the blame for that can be squarely placed on the Russians for fomenting the tensions to start with, then exploiting the anti-Ukrainian feeling of a minority of people by establishing militias and so-called separatist republics.  The people who live there are Ukrainian citizens - some (even many) of them may well be pro-Russian, but THEY ARE NOT RUSSIANS.  If the Russians withdrew all their forces this war would be over in a matter of days.

[fathertime]

Since when is it good?

Do you need to be reminded how many civilians have died in the Donbas conflict?  It's now believed to be over 5,000, and the blame for that can be squarely placed on the Russians for fomenting the tensions to start with, then exploiting the anti-Ukrainian feeling of a minority of people by establishing militias and so-called separatist republics.  The people who live there are Ukrainian citizens - some (even many) of them may well be pro-Russian, but THEY ARE NOT RUSSIANS.  If the Russians withdrew all their forces this war would be over in a matter of days.

Since when was it good?  Don't ask me, ask the clappers/delighters here about that one.


I don't agree with putting this entirely in Russia's lap...but that is well known already. 


Fathertime! 

[Anotherkiwi]

I don't agree with putting this entirely in Russia's lap...but that is well known already. 

Why not?  If the Russians hadn't invaded Crimea to start with, none of what is happening in eastern Ukraine would have occurred, and several thousand people would not now be dead.

[Taz]

Since when was it good?  Don't ask me, ask the clappers/delighters here about that one.

I don't agree with putting this entirely in Russia's lap...but that is well known already. 

Fathertime!

So who started the conflict then FT? Who fired the first shot so to speak? Whose troops were in Crimea?

[fathertime]

Why not?  If the Russians hadn't invaded Crimea to start with, none of what is happening in eastern Ukraine would have occurred, and several thousand people would not now be dead.

So who started the conflict then FT? Who fired the first shot so to speak? Whose troops were in Crimea?

In my opinion it seems clear that Russia has had involvement in all of this.  Western led worldwide  military events of a decade or more have helped lead up to this latest crisis....as it is only one of many.  At least that is the way I think Russia sees it. 


Fathertime!   

[BillyB]

Propaganda 101. This is how you prepare your civilian and military populations for a war with NATO...you tell them it's NATO they've been fighting all along...

Putin: Ukraine army is NATO legion aimed at restraining Russia

..."The Ukrainian army is essentially a ‘NATO legion’ which doesn’t pursue the national interests of Ukraine, but persists to restrict Russia, President Vladimir Putin says.

So it's NATO that's been killing ethnic Russians in East Ukraine all along? Putin planting a seed in his people's minds.

[BillyB]

Budzhurova said they had seized equipment, including servers of archival footage showing the February 2014 demonstration against the Russian takeover, effectively shutting down the channel's broadcast operations.

An American and a Russian got into a discussion about the freedoms they enjoy at home. The American said "I can walk into President Obama's office, slam my fist on his desk and say 'Mr. President, I don't like the way you're running this country!!!'" The Russian said "I can do the same thing in my country." The stunned American replied "Really?" The Russian said "Yes, I can walk into President Putin's office, slam my fist on his desk and say 'Mr. President, I don't like the way President Obama is running his country!!!'"

[Boethius]

Bo, did they ever figure out who was behind the sniper attacks in Kiev?  Was that another Moscow thing?

There are claims that Berkut officers, acting under the direction of a leader, were responsible, and arrest warrants have been issued on that basis.  All responsible fled Ukraine.  There is no direct link to Yanukovych, AFAIK.


No, Russia was not responsible for this.

[AC]

That's a dubious claim (that Russia is not responsible for Berkut shooting protestors) when we know that the SBU (Ukrainian Intelligence Services) was infiltrated by the FSB (Russian Intelligence Services) in Kyiv.

[JayH]

There are claims that Berkut officers, acting under the direction of a leader, were responsible, and arrest warrants have been issued on that basis.  All responsible fled Ukraine.  There is no direct link to Yanukovych, AFAIK.


No, Russia was not responsible for this.

Mrs B--  time will prove the link is there--it was amongst the "evidence" that all the fleeing scum attempted to destroy-or hide. Berkut leaders now in Moscow-hardly a surprise.
Anyone not seeing the high probability of the command chain is not accepting the highly likely reality.

[lordtiberius]

So what?

lol

[lordtiberius]

FT will ignore your direct demands to morally defend Putin but he will change the subject, morally equivocate, insult, project and mislead.  He is a moral degenerate.

[fathertime]

FT will ignore your direct demands to morally defend Putin but he will change the subject, morally equivocate, insult, project and mislead.  He is a moral degenerate.

I'm not afraid to discuss the issues and give my viewpoint!  It is YOU that have the issues, but I'm ok with you putting them on display with your 'superior' morality.      


Fathertime!