Have your trips to the FSU countries changed your Western thinking?

[erudite]

Hello to all and I have a question to ask although I cannot imagine that it has not been asked on this forum before. 
In the four trips I have made to Ukraine I have learned and absorbed much from each experience.  These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is.  I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA.  So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.

[Maxx2]

Hello to all and I have a question to ask although I cannot imagine that it has not been asked on this forum before. 
In the four trips I have made to Ukraine I have learned and absorbed much from each experience.  These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is.  I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA.  So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.

It did for me put in perspective the "important things" were not all that important. It's the family life that matters and not all the stuff one accumulates. We tend to worry about providing the perfect nest but that should not be our main focus. Finding that soul mate is. 

[dbneeley]

Erudite,

Interesting question!

Two responses:

In the FSU, many people would be far more materialistic if they had the means to be so.

In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives. There are many blogs devoted to that phenomenon, in fact. I think this is a growing trend among many people who have no interest in looking abroad for a mate. I believe it is a very worthwhile trend, and however you may arrive at that place you will likely find life far more rewarding without all the crap that winds up being a surprisingly heavy load weighting us down.

One rather interesting part of this movement is the "100 things challenge" in which people begin to get rid of all but 100 separate items. There are also many websites devoted to "decluttering" that are also often helpful.

Looking back, one thing I regret is not having pared down the nonessentials many years before I did. The waste of money I spent on keeping a mini-storage unit for some years alone is, in retrospect, quite silly.

David

[Daveman]

Yes, it absolutely has and in a very positive way.  I was always fairly open minded and rarely took western rhetoric for anything other than exactly that, but the extended trips were the most eye opening.  Learning more about the "why" people think and behave like they do allows for a more acceptive mentality (home and abroad), natural understanding, and personal growth and evolution in various ways unimaginable prior to embarking on this path. 

The only adverse effect would be to my bank account, but the education for which it shrank to provide truly cannot be measured in dollars, grivna, rubles, or euros.. it's pretty much priceless.

[Gylden]

Traveling, working or living abroad has an effect on most people. Finding yourself outside the familiar comforts, customs, language, cultures, etc. is a life enrichingexperience, again for most people. This is the same for people from all countries.

The more diversity, the better IMO.

[ECOCKS]

Hmmm, I agree it's an interesting question.

I learned some alternative ways to live and broadened my views considerably but cannot say that I particularly changed those views.

For instance, I learned that life without a car is not an unimaginable horror, hardly ever interacting with government officialdom can be wonderfully appreciated and that just because someone says they are a doctor, policeman, economist or business person, the cross-cultural definition they are applying should be carefully checked for accuracy as you translate it. I learned a people can stoically accept corruption and deprivation as a normal situation if they are held down at barely-above-subsistence living standards for a couple of generations. That propaganda, along with controlled lack of choices and options can result in changes of attitude and perception by an entire population and that it will take two or three generations to correct those perceptions and return to "normalcy".

Did I learn that the "Western ways" are flawed, inefficient or otherwise not realistic? Nope.

As David stated, the people there would be/are far more materialistic if given the chance and grab at most opportunities to move in the direction of western material comforts whenever they are offered.

[ConnerVT]

Two responses:

In the FSU, many people would be far more materialistic if they had the means to be so.

In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives.

I agree with this 100%.

[BC]

I agree with this 100%.

My experience is same.  If more is possible, it's human nature to utilize..

Nothing about this venture is cheap.

 

[dbneeley]

An interesting sidelight to the minimalist approach--minimalist travel. Especially with ever-decreasing allowances for baggage and the hassles often associated with checking bags, more and more people are learning to travel with much less--indeed, as many Ukrainians often do already.

I took only what I could carry on board for my six-week Summer trip back to the States this past year, and I was happy I did so (although I bought quite a bit for the house, family and friends so I did check a bag on the way home).

Too many Westerners try to travel with far more than they actually need, especially if they are willing to do some preparation beforehand.

If you are truly interested in learning to "do more with less" perhaps that's a place to start?

There are excellent resources on the subject on the Internet, such as onebag.com and onebagoneworld.com.

David

[ML]

David, I appreciate what you are trying to convey with your idea of traveling light.

However, I think you are giving somewhat of a misleading example.

Your traveling from Ukraine back to a home city (I presume) in USA for 6 weeks, cannot really be compared to a AM traveling to a new city in FSU for 6 weeks.

No one can live out of a carry-on for 6 weeks.  Let's be honest here.

In USA, we have other sets of clothes stored somewhere, can borrow from friends and relatives, can purchase clothes cheaply at WalMart, etc., we know exactly where all the OTC medicines and other necessities are, and have no language barriers in finding such, etc.

None of this applies when we travel to FSU.

Also, when coming back to USA for a visit as you did, we can dress like a beggar and no one cares.  But this won't fly when going to FSU to meet and woo ladies.

It is good to share tips on these boards.  But the tips should be realistic and fit the situation.

[dbneeley]

David, I appreciate what you are trying to convey with your idea of traveling light.

However, I think you are giving somewhat of a misleading example.

Your traveling from Ukraine back to a home city (I presume) in USA for 6 weeks, cannot really be compared to a AM traveling to a new city in FSU for 6 weeks.

No one can live out of a carry-on for 6 weeks.  Let's be honest here.

In USA, we have other sets of clothes stored somewhere, can borrow from friends and relatives, can purchase clothes cheaply at WalMart, etc., we know exactly where all the OTC medicines and other necessities are, and have no language barriers in finding such, etc.

None of this applies when we travel to FSU.

Also, when coming back to USA for a visit as you did, we can dress like a beggar and no one cares.  But this won't fly when going to FSU to meet and woo ladies.

It is good to share tips on these boards.  But the tips should be realistic and fit the situation.

You are quite mistaken, actually. I had no stored clothing as I left nothing behind in the U.S. What I did not bring with me or ship separately I got rid of. In my case, it was complicated by having to drag along a CPAP machine complete with mask and hose as well as various accoutrements to handle my diabetes.

Many people travel that lightly, actually. It really isn't that hard if you are prepared. Travel to the FSU during warm weather makes it easier, of course, but even in Winter you simply wear the bulky stuff on the plane.

Before you dismiss this out of hand, it would probably help if you did a little research first. It sounds very much like the old adage about "don't knock it until you've tried it."

One man who visited here for several weeks a few months ago did the one bag approach and was quite happy he did, by the way.

David

[Blues Fairy]

These trips have given me pause to consider just how complicated and materialistic my Western lifestyle actually is.  I have resolved to live a simpler and less complicated lifestyle in the future with my Ukraine wife in the USA. 

Western lifestyle complicated?  You must be kidding me.  Try starting a business in Russia or Ukraine, or getting a driver's license, or registering your vehicle/ passing inspection etc.  Try finding a secure retirement savings fund.  Try placing your kid in a good kindergarten/school without paying enormous bribes. 

You simply have no idea how complicated life in the FSU may be unless you have VERY good income, i.e. materialistic lifestyle, in your definition.   

[HiTech]

Alyona and I were in Ukraine for 2 weeks over New Years. I had not been there for 2.5 years. I very quickly remembered how doing almost anything takes 2 - 20 times as long as it would in the USA.

We spent 4 days to gather paper work for the Ukraine foreign resident stamp.

While minimalistic in the USA can give you a lot of relaxation. That concept does not work in Ukraine because if you have minimal items, it means you use most of your free time surviving.

As far as materialism goes, I'm with the rest, materialism is much more pronounced in Ukraine.

The one that jumps out at me, is how much the FSU still effects the way of life, from state run factories not letting you in if you are late to work, to the bribes at all levels of government. To me it highlights how important a non corrupt government is needed to make a country prosper. With out it you are at the mercy of people instead of laws which make a level playing field for all.

HiTech

[GQBlues]

"Have your trips to the FSU countries changed your Western thinking?"

Trips? None, nada, zip, zero.

Unless anyone spend a sizeable amount of time living like the natives and fully function as one in a particular environment can one objectively say it had a profound effect in their ways of life and thinking. It takes a while for anyone to be influenced by their new surrounding/environment to the point they are concisely affected by it and make an objective change accordingly.

Take at look at your respective wives experiences as an example. It had likely taken each one a while to acclimate and change to 'x' degree since living here, yes? The longer the time, the more noticeable the change. Some do not even fully 'adapt' or 'change' despite the longevity of residence. So how will relatively short trips make any significant impact to our ways of thinking to an extent there's a noticeable change?

[erudite]

I suppose I should say that the trips (however brief according to some other's standards) have impressed upon me it is more important to focus on "needs" rather than "wants" many times. It is very simple to receive an impression when you see people who are required to focus on "needs" instead of "wants".

In the west many things we have are extreme luxuries in the FSU and I understand this quite well; however in the west we also have a tendency to confuse "wants" with "needs" and it causes an imbalance in lifestyle in many cases.

[acctBill]

Western lifestyle complicated?  You must be kidding me.  Try starting a business in Russia or Ukraine, or getting a driver's license, or registering your vehicle/ passing inspection etc.  Try finding a secure retirement savings fund.  Try placing your kid in a good kindergarten/school without paying enormous bribes. 

You simply have no idea how complicated life in the FSU may be unless you have VERY good income, i.e. materialistic lifestyle, in your definition.   

BF is right, life in the FSU is far more complicated and difficult than life in the west.  I am always amazed by WM who have some fantasy ideal about life in the FSU.  These WM think that they can live with their FSUW and family in an apartment in Moscow or St. Pete or perhaps in a house in some out of the way place like Voronezh and live a calmer, slower, better life than life in London, New York or Moab, Utah.  It really is a fantasy. 

Most expats take a job in Russia as an adventure or challenge, something that will look good on their CV.  Many return home at the first opportunity, once the true extent of the challenges of working in a country in which corruption, incompetence, indifference and lack of resources is realized and these expats are usually working for western employers.       

Over the years of visiting the FSU I have met numerous expats who lived in Moscow and cities throughout the FSU.  Some have married FSUW and learned Russian and manage to live a good life by Russian standards.  These expats don't plan on retiring in Russia and with few exceptions if they were offered a promotion or even a comparable job in their home country or in some western country they would take it. 

[SFandEE]

Absolutely--

Propaganda is not just a communist/fascist/socialist concept or expertise

Hard work in the absence of hope is a challenge to sustain

America(ns) need(s) to be more credible with what it perceives it offers and what it is

Christianity plays an incredibly strong role in American culture--far more than I realized

Avoid hiring someone who has represented their sole interest in doing work for you is getting the money (really annoying to haggle with FSU people about getting their money, I guess they get stiffed a lot, haggle too much, I'll find someone else who at least pretends to want to do a good job for me)

Little kids walking with their parents with flowers for their teachers on the first day of school are pretty darn cute, so are little kids that do the dance of the little ducks for their family

I am sure there is more--very expansive experience

[erudite]

BF is right, life in the FSU is far more complicated and difficult than life in the west.  I am always amazed by WM who have some fantasy ideal about life in the FSU.  These WM think that they can live with their FSUW and family in an apartment in Moscow or St. Pete or perhaps in a house in some out of the way place like Voronezh and live a calmer, slower, better life than life in London, New York or Moab, Utah.  It really is a fantasy. 

Most expats take a job in Russia as an adventure or challenge, something that will look good on their CV.  Many return home at the first opportunity, once the true extent of the challenges of working in a country in which corruption, incompetence, indifference and lack of resources is realized and these expats are usually working for western employers.       

Over the years of visiting the FSU I have met numerous expats who lived in Moscow and cities throughout the FSU.  Some have married FSUW and learned Russian and manage to live a good life by Russian standards.  These expats don't plan on retiring in Russia and with few exceptions if they were offered a promotion or even a comparable job in their home country or in some western country they would take it. 

I did not say that it was easy to live there. I realized the first time I went that it was a "dog eat dog" lifestyle for the most part.  I said that the experience has taught me to change priorities in my life and future (even though they may be easier to come by here in the USA).  Here I have options and a choice. In FSU countries I would not have the same options or choice because the "needs" would be harder to obtain and to achieve on a daily basis.  It has taught me to count my blessings and look at my life objectively, that is all. 

Does anyone count their blessings any more these days as Mama taught them?

[acctBill]

I did not say that it was easy to live there. I realized the first time I went that it was a "dog eat dog" lifestyle for the most part.  I said that the experience has taught me to change priorities in my life and future (even though they may be easier to come by here in the USA).  Here I have options and a choice. In FSU countries I would not have the same options or choice because the "needs" would be harder to obtain and to achieve on a daily basis.  It has taught me to count my blessings and look at my life objectively, that is all. 

Does anyone count their blessings any more these days as Mama taught them?

erudite I'm not trying to ruin your thread and I have learned to count my blessings in that I live in a country with far more freedoms and opportunities than are available in the FSU.  However, I have heard from many WM that they would like to live or retire in the FSU just because they are married to a FSUW.  Most of these WM don't speak or speak very little Russian and have little interest in learning.   Without this knowledge of Russian they will never understand the culture or be able to function independently in the FSU.   

[SomeGuy]

I agree with whomever posted upthread about there is always something to learn when traveling anywhere outside of whatever your norm may be.  I think there is also much to be said of the differences between needs and wants, as well as opportunities that may or may not exist in different places.  There are definitely those in the FSU who will always want more, just like here, and may spend everything possible on 'presentation' - $200-$300 for new jeans, $$$ on the latest mobile, whatever the case may be, but there are also those who see little opportunity to advance themselves, their careers, the lot of their family.  The condition and perception of 'adequate' housing.  The ability of government to 'reclaim' land or buildings from housing or businesses for a new purpose.  The idea of summer houses being given to employees by companies(or government) they worked for.

Some things may seem to be clearly better or worse in one place over another, while others aren't so clear cut.  Owning a house or apartment, or business, the (ab)use of credit (which i have seen in the FSU as well), healthcare/insurance and tips/bribes.  The relative sizes of 'middle class' and the size of the gaps between the haves and have nots.  The public transportation system available for a small city of 500,000 and the comparisons in price, efficiency/capability compared to a similar sized place in the US (not only US to FSU here, basically the requirement to own one or more vehicles in nearly all areas of the US).  Chemicals in food.  Radiation in food.  The relative salary compared to cost on different items. 

I'm not saying all of the above have each directly changed my perspective in some significant way, only that there are always a lot of differences to be found, and things to think about.  There are relative good and bad things in most places.  I think that after a long enough period of consumerism/spending in my own life that had been winding down more already, time spent in the FSU as well as other places in the world, the economic situation in general, my wife's attitudes on spending/saving - they all contribute towards more focusing on needs over wants, and ensuring that my family prospers to the best of my ability.

[mendeleyev]

For instance, I learned that life without a car is not an unimaginable horror, hardly ever interacting with government officialdom can be wonderfully appreciated and that just because someone says they are a doctor, policeman, economist or business person, the cross-cultural definition they are applying should be carefully checked for accuracy as you translate it. I learned a people can stoically accept corruption and deprivation as a normal situation if they are held down at barely-above-subsistence living standards for a couple of generations. That propaganda, along with controlled lack of choices and options can result in changes of attitude and perception by an entire population and that it will take two or three generations to correct those perceptions and return to "normalcy".

Did I learn that the "Western ways" are flawed, inefficient or otherwise not realistic? Nope.

Excellent points. I'm also in agreement with what BluesFairy had to say.

I can remember the days when a simple, or it should have been simple, task like finding a replacement printer cartridge was an all day event. Back in the 1990s one could spend days first in calling stores, then hopping on a Metro to visit those stores, to find out that the same clerk who swore over the phone that they stocked my Cannon cartridge, in reality didn't carry Cannon or perhaps didn't even carry cartridges at all once you arrived to make the purchase.

I remember in the 1990s walking into a large Moscow Bank which had American Express logos on every window only to discover that they had no connection at all to AMEX and when I pointed to the numerous signs, the bank door guard (you don't just walk in unattended as in the West) laughed and said the signs were there to promote the bank's "image." He then showed me to the door.

OTOH, I too learned that a car isn't a dire necessity and that it is wasteful to drive just a block or 3 to pick up something at the market when your legs could really use the exercise and your lungs benefit from the walk and from the fresh air.

I came home years later to discover that my housing needs had changed. A 2500 sq ft house with 3.5 bathrooms seemed downright shameful. So in some things, yes we made changes.

[acctBill]

OTOH, I too learned that a car isn't a dire necessity and that it is wasteful to drive just a block or 3 to pick up something at the market when your legs could really use the exercise and your lungs benefit from the walk and from the fresh air.

Mendeleyev, breath in fresh air while walking the streets of Moscow?  You might get some exercise walking 3 or 4 blocks but fresh air has been in short supply in Moscow for a number of years.   

[mendeleyev]

Bill, of course. Sorry that I didn't clarify that to reflect the change in perspective after a return to one's home country.

Although it doesn't take long out of Moscow proper to be in relative wilderness. Now as to how pristine that wilderness is beneath the service could be quite another matter. And most certainly more than a few blocks.

[XMan]

I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.

I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression.  So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.

A majority of the women I met were hard working, sincere people.  I am not sure what I expected prior to my first trip.  I suppose my Scam Detector was set on ultra high alert.

I should appreciate more my particular circumstances.  In my case hard work actually paid off (thus far), more or less.  For some that I met, not so much. 

I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible.  If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia.  Very unusual.

I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny.  To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met.  Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different.  But it seemed remarkable to me. 

I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.  So I realized that changing a Ukrainian woman's mind about something might be even more difficult than changing an American woman's mind about something. Now THAT was an eye opening revelation.

Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility. 

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk. 

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil.  But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting.  Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.  Don't know, just an observation.  A heck of a lot of security for a grocery store.  A woman I was with had a terrible headache and had to take aspirin.  Opened one of my bottles of water to sip, put it back in my cart.  A security person came over and actually made me pay for that particular bottle before I could continue shopping.  I'm not kidding. Wish I had it on video, because when I tell that story, no one believes it.

I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure.  (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.)  Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.

Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change.  Ever.  I always found myself parsing out my cash, thinking ahead, making sure I had enough small bills for taxis, etc.  That goes for Russia and Ukraine.  I find that it annoys the heck out of me over a period of time.  I was exchanging money at a bank once and they tried to give me a couple of 500 grivna bills.  I handed them back and insisted on 50's because NO ONE would want to take a 500, unless I happened to be spending more than 500 at a shot.  Of course, some folks simply don't have change for large bills.  But this applies to buying even a candy bar with a small bill at a small shop.  One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something. 

Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything.  Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now. 

[Shostakovich]

In the West, there is also a growing trend toward "minimalism" or "voluntary simplicity" and cutting out much of the inessential "stuff" from our lives.

That is right and interesting in its own right.  Each generation has the opportunity to critique the previous ones.  Anti materialism has been a part of the US mind set forever - "T'is a gift to be simple" or from the WWII generation: "Waste not want not".  That had its expression among the hippies, but they became the most materialistic generation of Americans, save for the Yuppies, for whom the world was their stage.  Now it is the turn of the progeny of the yuppies to have their voice and it expresses itself in many ways.  The voluntary simplicity of this generation is not so voluntary - it's needed for survival.  And as for that simplicity, it's great in its repudiation of the yuppies love of gas guzzling cars, girth, and absurd houses filled with most monstrous accretions of junk, used once and sent to the attic forever.  But the current gen, what are they called, have their excesses also - insipid twitters, pusillanimous facebook posts and histrionic texts, violent gaming, internet porno, and internet posts like this: a grotesque waste of time.  Reminding me that it's time for  La Sie Vie: Jean Luc Goddard saves the day.

[chivo]

Mendeleyev, breath in fresh air while walking the streets of Moscow?  You might get some exercise walking 3 or 4 blocks but fresh air has been in short supply in Moscow for a number of years.   

True, but certainly no worse than Los Angeles. I always liked it when I would see people running for the daily exercise around the streets of LA during rush hour .

[acctBill]

True, but certainly no worse than Los Angeles. I always liked it when I would see people running for the daily exercise around the streets of LA during rush hour .

Or London, which can't seem to figure out how to improve air quality. 

[Anotherkiwi]

I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.

Definitely, even after two trips - the first prepared me for some things, but I found a lot of others second time round.

Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility. 

Seriously, who needs one, unless you live a fair way out of town?  I live in what is geographically one of the world's biggest cities, where the perennial complaint is the lack of public transport, especially bus routes across town (most radiate out from the city centre).  Although I'm lucky enough to live very close to a bus route which would take me directly to my office, I usually drive a car to work because it's quicker, cheaper and more convenient if I need to go somewhere at lunchtime or after work. As an aside, especially to those FSU residents who may not have seen this, local bus and train fares (no Metro) here vary by distance travelled - there's no such thing as the "one fare for all stops."

On my first trip to Russia, in 2006, I fell in love with the Moscow Metro (the frequency of trains as well as the incredible art museums they call stations).  Although I didn't use buses in Moscow on that trip I did in St Petersburg, and I had my first taste of marshrutki in Naberezhnye Chelny.  I was amazed at the number of routes in a city with half the population of my city.  On my latest trip I went to Kyiv for the first time, and was absolutely blown away to find out that, in addition to the bus, Metro and trams, there are over 500 marshrutki routes!

My western thinking definitely underwent a radical change because of these experiences - how can two countries which are supposedly struggling economically have such efficient systems in place?  I realise that most (all?) marshrutki drivers are owner-operators, but still...there would certainly be room for something similar here as a step up from taxis (diabolically expensive, whichever company you choose).

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk. 

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil...
I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure.  (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.)  Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.

We have supermarkets here which now charge for plastic bags, although most have discontinued the practice after howls of anguish from people who wanted to keep contributing to landfill excesses.  Gaining rapidly in popularity is the type of linen bag which you can take to pack your groceries in when you leave (or, in my mother's case, about eight of them!).  I normally went to produkti for my shopping, and the only proper supermarket I used was in Odessa.  Athough they had a security man on the door he never inspected my bag.

I definitely agree with the last part of the statement.  Although I found food to be somewhat cheaper than home when taken overall, there were certain items which were at least as expensive as here.  The classic for me was seeing an ordinary shoe shop in Kyiv (not a branded boutique such as I saw in St Petersburg) where even the cheapest pair of men's shoes (admittedly pretty good quality from what I could see) were about 600 UAH, nearly twice the price I would pay here.  As Xman says, how on earth can ordinary Ukrainians afford such shoes? (and I'm not trying to be superior...I really would like to know).

Apart from the public transport, which I felt could be copied back home, I'm very thankful about life here when I see the conditions that a lot of people in the FSU have to endure.

I realise that a lot of people don't have any hardships at all, but for me that made the contrast with Alex Average so much more obvious and poignant.

It also won't stop me looking for my future wife in that area - any excuse to return to such a fascinating part of the world!

[chivo]

Unless anyone spend a sizeable amount of time living like the natives and fully function as one in a particular environment can one objectively say it had a profound effect in their ways of life and thinking. It takes a while for anyone to be influenced by their new surrounding/environment to the point they are concisely affected by it and make an objective change accordingly.

A lot of truth here Matt and I hope to expound a little on this and what DB and Shosty said as well when I can find the time, but XMan had some interesting viewpoints as well.

I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression.  So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.

I believe that they have a more pragmatic outlook on life when it comes to things. Maybe it’s partly from their tragic history, but I’m not surprised by your admittance of worrying more.

If Russia has taught me anything, it’s to live life to the fullest in the moment, to worry less, and not be afraid of things I have no control over, like death/dying for instance.
 

A majority of the women I met were hard working, sincere people.  I am not sure what I expected prior to my first trip.  I suppose my Scam Detector was set on ultra high alert.

A vast majority work hard. I think most have no idea just how hard a lot of these women work. I was at L’Oreal yesterday and my client took me back into the office area on just one floor where there were about 60 women locked into work.

She went on to tell me that most of these girls work 10-12 hours a day. This is consistent with many of the offices I’ve been in around Moscow.

I should appreciate more my particular circumstances.  In my case hard work actually paid off (thus far), more or less.  For some that I met, not so much.

Good advice for everyone. The person with no shoes often complains until he/she sees someone with no feet.
 

I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible.  If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia.  Very unusual.

I would tend to agree except to the point of paranoia part, but I don’t think it’s restricted just to the FSU.
 

I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny.  To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met.  Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different.  But it seemed remarkable to me.

Fate/destiny is big here, but IMO not much different than my experience in America.

I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.  So I realized that changing a Ukrainian woman's mind about something might be even more difficult than changing an American woman's mind about something. Now THAT was an eye opening revelation.

It’s getting better as more people have access to more information through the internet, travel and such, at least with regard to maintaining good health. Changing FSUW’s minds is best done by example as far as my experience goes. I keep myself extremely fit so that my best argument. My g/f stopped smoking after a month being around me.

Someone already mentioned this, but getting around without a car is not an impossibility.

I haven’t owned a car for almost 7 years now and I don’t miss at all (well except for a few exceptions). I’ve notice that my stress level from not driving has lowered considerably.

The way the metro is set up and the easy availability of getting a car on the street make a car much less important. I rather enjoy walking and just think of it as another form of exercise.

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.

A little strange at first, but at 1 rouble a pop I just go with the flow.

It took a little longer to get use to paying for things that are normally free in America, e.g., paying for ketchup at a restaurant. I remember once when I first arrived I was dining at restaurant,  I asked the waitress for a side of salsa. She brought in a little cup, it was maybe what you could put in your hand. Later after I got the check I asked what was the extra 150 roubles on the bill for ($5). She told it was for the salsa. Ouch!

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil.  But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting.  Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.  Don't know, just an observation.  A heck of a lot of security for a grocery store.  A woman I was with had a terrible headache and had to take aspirin.  Opened one of my bottles of water to sip, put it back in my cart.  A security person came over and actually made me pay for that particular bottle before I could continue shopping.  I'm not kidding. Wish I had it on video, because when I tell that story, no one believes it.

After government agencies, dealing with the security here is my least favorite thing.

I found food prices to be very similar to where I live, and began wondering how a family can acquire the basic necessities of life considering pricing / salary structure.  (Perhaps that is the reason for security guards trying to prevent shoplifting.)  Again, I find myself thinking perhaps I should be more appreciative of my situation.

Even in Moscow, the prices aren’t that much different than Los Angeles, as an example. Fruits are much cheaper in LA as California produces about half the country’s supply. Especially in winter here.

It goes without saying that many Americans don’t really appreciate what they have.

Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change.  Ever.  I always found myself parsing out my cash, thinking ahead, making sure I had enough small bills for taxis, etc.  That goes for Russia and Ukraine.  I find that it annoys the heck out of me over a period of time.  I was exchanging money at a bank once and they tried to give me a couple of 500 grivna bills.  I handed them back and insisted on 50's because NO ONE would want to take a 500, unless I happened to be spending more than 500 at a shot.  Of course, some folks simply don't have change for large bills.  But this applies to buying even a candy bar with a small bill at a small shop.  One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something.

I’ve tried to figure this out too. My conclusion is the shops just don’t have enough of the “right” change to give you.

What I find strange about the shops is their unwillingness to sell you something because they’re about to close. Can you imagine owning a shop and a customer wants to buy something that is a 2 minute transaction and telling them to leave and come back tomorrow?

This happened to me over the holidays at the big shopping mall Europesky. I wanted to buy my lady a dress that she liked and it was about 1 minute till closing. We were actually in the store with the dress in hand and the Manager told us to come back tomorrow as they were closing. We haven’t been back since, oh well.

Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything.  Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now.

No question!

[SANDRO43]

I’ve tried to figure this out too. My conclusion is the shops just don’t have enough of the “right” change to give you.

For a number of reasons, in the mid 1970s we ran out of It£50-100 coins (the equivalent of nickels and dimes then) and our Mint could not keep up with the demand for a couple of years. Shopkeepers were furious, so our Government - following an initiative by a Turin bank - authorised all banks to issue assegnini (mini cashier's cheques) in small denominations as legal tender in lieu of the scarce coins:

They thickened up our wallets considerably .

[ML]

X-Mans post was one of the best ever on  this  topic.

[ML]

I am not sure how much it changed my Western thinking, so to speak, but there were some interesting observations.

Same here.  Didn't really change my way of thinking but, of course, exposed me to a different [mostly incorrect  :-)) ] way of thinking.

I am not sure if people actually worry less or if they just pretend to worry less, but that was my impression.  So when thinking about those whom I met and was fortunate to get to know better, I began to wonder why I worry more than they do.

This ties in closely with their idea that many things are just fated to happen and that they actually do have less control over outcomes than we do.

I found many people were strangely superstitious about more things than I thought humanly possible.  If I ignored those superstitions people seemed deeply concerned to the point of paranoia.  Very unusual.

Agree completely

I have no belief whatsoever in fate or destiny.  To my great surprise that belief is nearly universal amongst everyone I met.  Of course, I don't know what percentage of American's believe in fate or destiny, so perhaps the numbers are not quite so different.  But it seemed remarkable to me.  

Agree

I found many had some very unusual beliefs concerning how to maintain good health and were very skeptical about my views regarding that topic.  

Yes, in many ways they think not much differently than African bush people.  It has been a headache for me with more than one woman and came very close to being the cause of ending an otherwise great relationship with one woman.  Not completely home free on this issue yet with her, so it might still doom the relationship.

Asking for, and paying for, a bag at a grocery store I always find to be an odd quirk.  

Actually this is a very good idea.  The outcome is to save natural resources and/or prevent damage to ecology from piling up of excess bags in trash dumps.  The USA is moving slowly toward this method also.

Having my grocery cart and every bag inspected when I left a large supermarket to make sure I wasn't stealing anything was odd.  Item by item comparing it to my receipt.  Perhaps I just look evil.  But it left me thinking that apparently everyone is suspicious of everyone else when it comes to shoplifting.  Perhaps shoplifting would be rampant without it.  

Everyone here should  be very aware that the 'general' mentality in FSU is different when it comes to illegal activity.  You only have to know that the FSU mobs have taken over the crime syndicates in USA in a relative short period of time to realize they are very good at this.  On the micro level, I have talked with managers of supermarkets, etc., and they confirm that shoplifting is rampant and the people actually see nothing wrong with it.  To 'most' people, it is just an extension of other aspects of life in FSU where you have to pay bribes to get many things done, where it was always  common to steal construction materials to build the dachas, etc.

And, in more generality, it is a reflection of the FSU people's disdain for rules and laws.  It has been commented here about the FSUW disdain for such things as wearing seatbelts, etc.  It is also reflected in the very high rate of overstaying visas, etc.

Universally, every city I was in, every type of shop (with the exception of restaurants / cafes), No one wanted to give change.  One would think they simply don't want to do the math, or that coins are scarce or something.  

It has nothing at all  to do with a shortage of coins.  It is simply another manifestation of the general rudeness of the FSU people and the lack of customer service.  This also is a major headache of mine and even causes some problems with my women.  When the clerk asks us to help make the change, I simply say 'no, we do not have any change.'  The gals I am with often reach for their purses to get some coins, and I tell them to stop it.  It is just simply ridiculous that the clerks sit there with a till full of coins and small bills, and yet burden the customer with the tedious work of doing the job of the clerk.  And this is not just a matter of my not wanting to help.  As mentioned by others, we need the coins and small bills to pay for the minibus rides, to pick up some apples, etc., from the street vendor babushkas, etc.  Save your coins and small bills for those transactions where the small business person legitimately does not have a large amount of change.

Regardless of canceled flights, lost luggage, hopes dashed on a particular woman, etc., each experience was unique and I would not trade it for anything.  Nor would I trade the real friends that I made unexpectedly, some of whom I communicate with quite frequently now.  

I think some romanticise foreign travel and relationships too much.  You can experience these same things simply by traveling to the next city, the next state, etc.

True, many here are traveling to FSU in seek of women.  But aside from that, I find it rather humorous that many in our general population have the hots to travel overseas when, in fact, they have not  visited the majority of their own country.  For sightseeing and fantastic places to see, it is difficult to beat the USA.

Now . . . waiting for the hate mail!!!  :-))  If you really feel this way, then why are you . . . . . .  bla, bla, bla.

[chivo]

I don't particularly think that people in the FSU are any more materialistic than their brethren in the west. What many forget is that free market economics has only been around for 20 years, really less if you take into consideration that the transition wasn't exactly smooth back in the 90's and most products weren't readily available until the last few years.

These people have never really had things people in the west have owned since basically the end of WWII. I call it my "hungry tiger" theory. If you haven't been fed for ages you tend to get somewhat crazy. Who's more likely to want to eat you, the tigers in the wild or the ones who work in Vegas with Siegfried & Roy?

From my experience talking to people over the years I find people here no more materialistic than the average person in the west who likes nice things. Yes, there will always be a segment who focus on status symbols and such (go to any middle/upper middle class/rich area in America and take a glimpse) and here is no different, but generally speaking most just want things to be available to them and the freedom to choose like most in the west have already had for many years.

Give them time to play with their new toys, let them finish eating. Right now they're just working on the appetizers.

[possum]

Give them time to play with their new toys, let them finish eating. Right now they're just working on the appetizers.

Well said, Chivo.. The Russians are like a hungry two year old who is also cranky from being tired.. That is to say, a slap upside the head is probably not the best approach here.

[dbneeley]

There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy: FSU citizens tend to have distrust of banks and an appreciation for the ephemeral nature of prosperity. Also, since so many live in flats they own and thus don't have large mortgage payments, even though their gross income may be low by Western standards, surprisingly often they have a larger percentage--and often a larger amount in actual dollars--of discretionary income than do many Westerners. The incomes may be lower, but the costs of living may be even lower.

Put the two together--discretionary income not needed for day-to-day subsistence coupled with skepticism regarding the soundness of banks, and one result is a tendency to put money into "things" they have not had before.

Oh, yes--another area of distrust is in the value of their local currency. Here in Ukraine, for example, serious savers generally do so either in Euros or in U.S. Dollars. For roughly the last year, the exchange rate has been relatively stable, but the year before that was one in which the griven fell rather substantially. When I moved here full time in September 2008, the griven was about 5.5 per dollar; not much more than a year later it was 8 to the dollar, where it is hovering today.

Increasingly, people are paid via ATM card. However, the most common strategy is to remove the money from that account promptly in cash.

David

[possum]

There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy: FSU citizens tend to have distrust of banks and an appreciation for the ephemeral nature of prosperity.

It's simple mathematics, db.. The rate of inflation is 12% to infinity while the best deposit interest rate is currently around 9%..

[BC]

It's simple mathematics, db.. The rate of inflation is 12% to infinity while the best deposit interest rate is currently around 9%..

LOL, yes that would encourage spending.. and 'bump' up the economy.  Most countries doing same nowdays.

[Boethius]

There is another dimension to the apparent materialism and a "spend it now" philosophy:

It is also that they have lived through periods where hyper inflation meant their dollar today is worth a penny tomorrow. 

I know a man who lived in Germany in the interwar period, and through WWII.  Half a century later, he still doesn't keep a lot of cash.  Everything is converted to either gold, or gold stocks.

[SANDRO43]

I know a man who lived in Germany in the interwar period, and through WWII.  Half a century later, he still doesn't keep a lot of cash.  Everything is converted to either gold, or gold stocks.

Once bitten, twice shy :

Not surprising, after having had to spend 50 bilion DM for a single postage stamp .

[2tallbill]

So I wonder if any of you have had this same introspective experience.

My marriage certainly has.

Before my first European trip I was determined not to be the loud, typical American traveler type.
I did wear cargo shorts. Wearing pants in hot weather is mostly stupid. NOTE even my wife thinks
so, or at least signs off on it. She packs 100% of my bags before I travel.

[krimster2]

YES!
it has increased my hatred of fascism, becuz I can see firsthand, the death and destruction caused by fascist leaders only concerned with their own vain pursuit of power, glory and wealth
and it has increased my anger towards masses of stoopid people who back these leaders
as we aged, Mark Twain (The Mysterious Stranger ) and I have rejected humanity for the same reason

[cameraguymn]

I first went to Ukraine (former USSR) in college in the dead of winter. I saw how crazy cold the weather was and saw how stoic the soldiers were and how the people lived through such hard conditions and realized we would not beat these bastards in a drawn out war. But now we see how resilient the Ukrainian people truly are in the war.