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Author Topic: Ukraine-The Future  (Read 208797 times)

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Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #175 on: November 23, 2014, 07:13:56 PM »
After reading some of the material, here, regarding the elections and the new direction that the Rada will be taking, it is absolutely astounding that the Russians could not figure out ahead of time the direction that the new Ukraine would take.

Anyone, with a look at demographics, could figure out that without Crimea or Lugansk and Donetsk, it would be impossible to effect a return to Russian influenced politics in the country.  I know we said this at the time of the Little Green Men invasion of Crimea, but the bulk of Yanukovic's party block was located in these two regions.  Accordingly, the voters in the most recent election were heavily skewed away from the normative voting for Ukraine and towards a Euromaidan solution. 

Coupled with the lack of Russian national support voters, every Ukrainian knows that Russia is the aggressor with respect to territorial integrity.  As much as Russia (through the strategy of its leaders) is now polarized to a nationalistic tendency, Ukraine is even more polarized - for self survival. 

I have talked to many Russians and none of them seem to grasp this elementary model of political activism. 

I also believe that Russia, i.e. Putin and his cronies, had absolutely no clue as to how polarized Europe would become against Russia.  I believe that they thought that the occupied Eastern territories of Ukraine would rise up as a group and wish to join Russia, and that they all though that the assimilation would be done in three or four months. 

I don't know if you all remember, but we had a contributor here from Crimea who said as much.  She said "In six months, Ukraine will not even exist any more."

I think it is interesting to note that the effect Russia sought, to separate Ukraine into two segments, South and East vs. North and West, through nationalism with Russia, has had exactly the opposite effect intended.  Russia should either complete their land bridge to Crimea (which now seems out of the question as the Sea of Azov is now or almost frozen) and unify the section of Novorussia (or whatever it is called) or pull out.  Because the longer Russia remains, the more unified Ukraine will become and the more outspoken the European leaders will become as alternative means of energy become available.

While Russia may believe it was goaded into attacking Ukraine, the end game is already playing out and a huge bear trap lies in the forest ahead.  I don't think it can be avoided.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #176 on: November 23, 2014, 11:00:04 PM »
If what you say is true, and I think it is.  What is Russia's future?

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #177 on: November 23, 2014, 11:41:11 PM »
The extent of Russia's future problems will be dictated by the level of brinkmanship that Putin takes in the immediate future.I believe he has already overplayed his hand-- and a military setback in Ukraine now will be the start of a extensive Russian reverse.Even a protracted war will work for Ukraine-not Russia. Returning the Crimea and eastern Ukraine-- and paying reparations will break Russia economically and the internal political fallout will be massive.
That is all sometime in the future--right now my concern is to see Ukraine survive the crisis confronting it and create a future for itself--free of Russia and Russian interference.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #178 on: November 24, 2014, 12:08:42 AM »
If the link you posted in the other thread is right Russia is within a year or so of some serious problems I'd say.
 A dying animal is dangerous.

Offline LAman

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #179 on: November 24, 2014, 03:35:22 PM »
If the link you posted in the other thread is right Russia is within a year or so of some serious problems I'd say.
 A dying animal is dangerous.

I believe it will take a couple years before it becomes serious and only if the current trend stays.

But it will be less than 1 year before Ukraine's economy will collapse without some major financial injections.
I was told the other day the hryvnia was up to 17.1 to USD and climbing...... there is NO money to be able to fight anyone. Does anyone have any idea what the Ukrainian army looks like? More volunteers than regular's and you have to supply your own equipment. And winter is coming.....
Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #180 on: November 24, 2014, 03:44:47 PM »
No currently it's showing 15.07 to 1 USD. Not good by any means for sure.

 But the ruble is in as bad or slightly worse shape AND no one will loan them money due to the sanctions.

Offline LAman

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #181 on: November 24, 2014, 03:48:19 PM »
No currently it's showing 15.07 to 1 USD. Not good by any means for sure.

 But the ruble is in as bad or slightly worse shape AND no one will loan them money due to the sanctions.

I am speaking of an actual transaction a couple days ago. Not from some exchange site.

You are right about the ruble.
Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #182 on: November 24, 2014, 03:58:04 PM »
I'll post my own rates in a week or so.

 That 15/1 should be pretty close to the official rate. More can be had with the black market. But I avoid that personally.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #183 on: November 24, 2014, 04:27:19 PM »
Given that  Ukraine has been through turmoil-- in every way and is currently under attack -- the currency has probably fared better than expected.No one is in denial about the crisis Ukraine faces.
On the other hand-- a supposedly strong Russian economy brimming with "assets" is on the brink of collapse.

Any attempt to compare is grossly unfair to Ukraine in the current situation.

Look at it this way--  the best is ahead of Ukraine-- and for the foreseeable future Russia's best is behind it!! :)
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline sleepycat

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #184 on: November 24, 2014, 04:42:07 PM »
and for the foreseeable future Russia's best is behind it!! :)

Doll will probably differ you on that!  :naughty:

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #185 on: November 24, 2014, 04:52:55 PM »
Ruble 45/1

Hyrvnia 15/1

Hmmmm

Simple figures for her..


Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #186 on: November 24, 2014, 05:07:18 PM »
Ruble 45/1

Hyrvnia 15/1

Hmmmm

Simple figures for her..

Maybe - but when I was last there, the Hryvnia was worth 4 roubles (8 v 32 against the dollar).  Now it's only three.

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #187 on: November 24, 2014, 05:29:20 PM »
Ukraine is in deep trouble, the government has about 3 billion in foreign exchange and about another billion in gold.  The reason the Hyrvnia is so low, is the NBU can no longer afford to spend it’s precious foreign exchange to sell and buy Hyrvnia to prop up the price.  It appears that a good deal of the previous money that Ukraine borrowed from the IMF and elsewhere ended up in the off-shore accounts of Yanukovych’s “family” and was then hastily transferred to Russia.
However, the people of Ukraine are on the hook to pay it back, I’m not sure how they’ll do it.  Meanwhile Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts are in ruins, and as a result Ukraine now has to import coal, which was revealed in yet another oligarch scam recently.  Look at a map, you’ll see that the war is currently being pursued in Lugansk and Donetsk, Putin needs to secure these two oblasts and then extend south west into Zaporoshie oblast and he will then have a land bridge from Russia to Crimea.  Will he stop there?  Or will he keep going West and secure Odessa as well, and cut Ukraine off completely from the Black Sea, will he stop there or will he keep going even further West to connect everything together in Transistria?  Meanwhile the volunteers doing the fighting for Ukraine in Eastern Ukraine (who must supply their own equipment and transport) have become deeply distrustful of the government in Kiev and military commanders, and of all oligarchs, the country is fracturing everywhere, not just in Eastern Ukraine, winter is fast approaching and already people are starving in Eastern Ukraine, how far will it go? In Kiev, I have seen “elitny” houses that two years ago cost $800,000 to $1,000,000 now have a “suggested” price of $250,000, that tells you something...  Whatever eventually happens, and all “falling objects” eventually stop when they hit the ground, the Ukraine a year from now, will likely be very different from the Ukraine it is today.  History is repeating itself in Ukraine, who wants to die or make sacrifices for Ukraine?

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #188 on: November 24, 2014, 05:43:28 PM »
Ukraine is in deep trouble, the government has about 3 billion in foreign exchange and about another billion in gold.  The reason the Hyrvnia is so low, is the NBU can no longer afford to spend it’s precious foreign exchange to sell and buy Hyrvnia to prop up the price.  It appears that a good deal of the previous money that Ukraine borrowed from the IMF and elsewhere ended up in the off-shore accounts of Yanukovych’s “family” and was then hastily transferred to Russia.
However, the people of Ukraine are on the hook to pay it back, I’m not sure how they’ll do it.  Meanwhile Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts are in ruins, and as a result Ukraine now has to import coal, which was revealed in yet another oligarch scam recently.  Look at a map, you’ll see that the war is currently being pursued in Lugansk and Donetsk, Putin needs to secure these two oblasts and then extend south west into Zaporoshie oblast and he will then have a land bridge from Russia to Crimea.  Will he stop there?  Or will he keep going West and secure Odessa as well, and cut Ukraine off completely from the Black Sea, will he stop there or will he keep going even further West to connect everything together in Transistria?  Meanwhile the volunteers doing the fighting for Ukraine in Eastern Ukraine (who must supply their own equipment and transport) have become deeply distrustful of the government in Kiev and military commanders, and of all oligarchs, the country is fracturing everywhere, not just in Eastern Ukraine, winter is fast approaching and already people are starving in Eastern Ukraine, how far will it go? In Kiev, I have seen “elitny” houses that two years ago cost $800,000 to $1,000,000 now have a “suggested” price of $250,000, that tells you something...  Whatever eventually happens, and all “falling objects” eventually stop when they hit the ground, the Ukraine a year from now, will likely be very different from the Ukraine it is today.  History is repeating itself in Ukraine, who wants to die or make sacrifices for Ukraine?

Really?

 Care to cite the source of those figures?

Do these numbers look a bit different?




Ukrainian Gold

Ukraine increased gold holdings in all but three years over the past two decades, the IMF data show. It last sold the metal in May after holding a record 42.9 tons in April. The amount it now owns would account for about 0.1 percent of global central bank reserves, according to IMF data.

Gold had accounted for about 9.6 percent of Ukraine’s total foreign reserves, according to latest data from the gold council. That was almost the same for Russia and compares with about 70 percent for the U.S. and Germany, the biggest bullion holders, the data show.

Ukraine’s total foreign-currency reserves plunged to $12.6 billion in October, the lowest level since March 2005, the central bank said Nov. 7. Authorities helped state-owned NAK Naftogaz Ukrainy repay a Eurobond and also helped finance natural gas imports from the EU.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-21/gold-holdings-in-ukraine-slump-amid-conflict-in-eastern-regions.html

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #189 on: November 24, 2014, 05:55:13 PM »
Given that  Ukraine has been through turmoil-- in every way and is currently under attack -- the currency has probably fared better than expected.No one is in denial about the crisis Ukraine faces.
On the other hand-- a supposedly strong Russian economy brimming with "assets" is on the brink of collapse.

Any attempt to compare is grossly unfair to Ukraine in the current situation.

Look at it this way--  the best is ahead of Ukraine-- and for the foreseeable future Russia's best is behind it!! :)


This is ridiculous 'Happy talk'!  The future is uncertain for both countries at this point.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #190 on: November 24, 2014, 06:05:37 PM »
actually, the babooshka on the corner has more gold in her teeth then are stored in the vaults of the NBU, you think the "family" was going to leave the gold there?
use google, sample here:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-24/ukraine-central-bank-admits-gold-outflow-calls-it-optimization-reserve-structure

Ukraine's so called "foreign reserves" are a freakin' joke, more than 80% of these so-called foreign reserves consist of "securities", Ukraine refuses to answer what these securities are exactly, they may be Ukraine issued bonds denominated in dollars or "Euro-bonds" issued by government entities like NaftyGaz that are nearly worthless, actual cash is just about 3 billion.

And you can take this information to the bank and cash it!

Offline AkMike

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #191 on: November 24, 2014, 06:11:17 PM »
No where in your link di I see anything about 3 billion in foreign exchange and about another billion in gold. Did I miss it?

 We all know that UA is in dire straits now, but your numbers show it's already time to dig the grave.

Offline JayH

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Territorial integrity can not be subject to political or economic bargaining.
« Reply #192 on: November 25, 2014, 02:14:24 AM »
Taruta said that the government must regain control of Crimea and Donbas "at all costs"


Territorial integrity can not be subject to political or economic bargainin
g..
Sergei Taruta /
Taruta said that for every Ukrainian country must fight to the end /
In war the government is faced with a dilemma: what is more valuable resource - people or territory ? And honest conversation about this should be the beginning of a national dialogue about the future of Ukraine, says ex-governor of the Donetsk region, now MP Serhiy Taruta, reports The Mirror week .

Territorial integrity can not be subject to political or economic bargaining, he said.

"My personal position is unambiguous. Control of the state border of Ukraine should be restored at any cost and as soon as possible. But for the life, safety, dignity and well-being of every citizen of Ukraine the state should fight to the end" - wrote in his article Taruta.



In legislative terms, this means the implementation of these measures.

Shall be established a state program of reintegration of Crimea and the occupied territories of Donbass (creating media for broadcast in the occupied territories, networking available for Ukrainian state institutions in the area of ​​occupation, housing infrastructure creation and placement of internal migrants, etc.).

Please ensure social protection and necessary living conditions for internally displaced persons from the Donbas and Crimea.

For effective implementation of these measures in the structure of the Cabinet of Ministers must enter Vice Prime Minister for Reintegration occupied territories, says Taruta.
Детальніше читайте на УНІАН: http://www.unian.ua/politics/1013085-taruta-zayaviv-scho-vlada-mae-vidnoviti-kontrol-nad-krimom-ta-donbasom-bud-yakoyu-tsinoyu.html
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online krimster2

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #193 on: November 25, 2014, 09:13:13 AM »
here’s an older link just for you. with a short excerpt!

http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2013/12/19/ukraines-international-reserves-and-the-impending-default.html

 “The State of Ukraine's International Reserves

Official international reserves are the accumulated reserves of currency and gold which are under the control of a country's monetary authorities. International reserves are held in three main forms: a) foreign securities (as of November 1, 2013 76.39% of Ukraine's reserves were held in securities); b) currency in cash and currency deposits in banks (14.87%); c) gold in monetary form (8.74%).”

What Ukraine is not publicly saying is what exactly are the “foreign securities”, are they short term US T-bills that were purchased abroad with “hard cash”, or are they Ukrainian issued bonds denominated in foreign currency? The T-bills can be sold and cash raised, Ukrainian bonds are junk with no possibility of being paid.  I stand by my statement that in theory, Ukraine has only about 3 billion in actual foreign exchange CASH, less than a billion in gold (which may or may not actually exist), see

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20141120/1014967457.html
or
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics_ukraine_society/2014/11/19/04-47-13pm/ukraines_gold_officially_missing

BTW, I’ve actually listened to the interview referenced in the above link, it’s in Russian, if you’d like here’s the link:

http://ukraina.ru/news/20141116/1011178918.html

As far as Ukraine’s missing gold is concerned, it was first disclosed by the IMF and not Ukraine, the above interview will lead you to believe that pretty much all information coming out of the NBU is “dressed-up” to make the horrible situation try to look less horrible!

Ukraine’s economy now faces a “Perfect Storm”, Donestsk and Lugansk their biggest exporters are ruined, they also supplied 100% of Ukraine’s coal, which now goes to Russia.  Ukrainian oligarchs and government ministers are now trying to be coal importers and collect a 30% premium for themselves.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/editorial/stop-stealing-371761.html

Banks are collapsing right and left, inflation is 20%, currency depreciating at 50% for the year.
Everyone is bracing themselves for an expected Russian Invasion, and Ukraine is defending itself primarily through volunteers who must equip and transport themselves to the war zone.

Does anyone really expect Ukraine to last very long, or in other words, yes it’s time to start digging!




Offline Gator

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #194 on: November 25, 2014, 09:48:25 AM »
Given that  Ukraine has been through turmoil-- in every way and is currently under attack -- the currency has probably fared better than expected.No one is in denial about the crisis Ukraine faces.
On the other hand-- a supposedly strong Russian economy brimming with "assets" is on the brink of collapse.


Russia?  Recession, yes.  Collapse, no.


OTOH, Ukraine is in dire straits and collapse is inevitable without massive aid. 

Ukraine will have more difficulty than Russia in funding a conventional war.  Russia will win over the long term (or even short term given krimster's information), yet will suffer major losses, especially if Ukraine implements unconventional warfare.  An Ukrainian mujahedeen is not far fetched given the volunteer battalions.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 09:51:00 AM by Gator »

Offline Gator

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Ukraine-Russia another Mexico-US?
« Reply #195 on: November 25, 2014, 10:27:47 AM »
Has any one noticed some parallels between the Russian-Ukrainian conflict and  the Mexican-American war? 

In 1836 American settlers on Mexican colonial territory known as Texas won a "revolution for independence" against Mexican military forces led by the President of Mexico.   Unlike eastern Ukraine, the Texas settlers had no aid from the US.  Some American volunteers such as Davey Crockett  did help, yet the campaign was fought predominantly by Texas settlers. 

The US at the time had expansionist goals.  In 1845 the US annexed the Texas territory amid protests by Mexico.   Mexico had never recognized Texas as a sovereign nation.

Mexico also disputed the southern border of Texas.  The US moved troops along the disputed border.  When Mexico attacked the troops in early 1846, the conflict escalated and the US mounted a full invasion of Mexico, easily reaching and capturing Mexico City in 1847. 

In February 1848 the Mexico government sold to the US what is today the state of California and six other states (or parts thereof) plus recognition of Texas for the price of $15 million (the same price as the 1803 Louisiana Purchase with France).  The US had proposed to Mexico before the war to purchase the territory for $30 million. 

Posters from Texas and Mexico will probably have some corrections to my summary.  But to get to my point, is such an option for Ukraine? 

This prompted a wild idea in my head.  Posters have talked of a win-win, when the win for Ukraine was to walk away with nothing other than a tenuous peace.   Instead, maybe Ukraine should consider selling Crimea to Russia!  :o :o :o  And eastern Ukraine too if Putin is so motivated. 

Such a solution would allow sanctions to be dropped and for Russia to return to the world community.  It would give Ukraine the money it needs to accelerate the building of a Westernized economy.  Plus a lot of bloodshed and destruction  would be averted.  Also, Russia's support would facilitate international investigations to recover the billions allegedly stolen by Yanukovych and bring him and his henchmen to justice.   Perhaps Russia's concerns about NATO can be addressed too.

The issue, what would be a fair price?  Also, Putin does not impress me as someone who would pay for what he says has historically been Russia's not Ukraine's territory.   

So Putin and Russia will likely remain a world pariah.  And one day when Europe is weaned from Russian gas, the EU and other countries can take great pleasure in telling Putin and Russians to "Go Fuck Yourself."  :D   Also, "Take a picture of yourself at the G20 talks because you will never be there again."

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #196 on: November 25, 2014, 10:32:10 AM »
 :D :D


This is not about Ukrainian territory, or Russian speakers.  It is about destabilizing Ukraine long term, and dividing the EU.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #197 on: November 25, 2014, 10:37:57 AM »
Gator are we going back to the 19th Century or do we live in the 21st Century?

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #198 on: November 25, 2014, 10:39:02 AM »
Gator, as you note, without external aid, Ukraine will likely face an economic collapse sometime within the next few months.  In the past, such aid has primarily appeared in the form of loans, it is becoming increasingly unlikely that Ukraine will be able to support repayment of even past loans after March or so (and this is not even considering new loans).  Based on this uncomfortable reality, I'm not sure who's going to stick their neck out for Ukraine.  Also keep in mind, that some of the amount previously borrowed ended up in off-shore accounts off the Yanukovych "family" (now likely transferred to Russian banks), and that Ukraine never lived up to its promises which were conditions for receiving previous IMF loans, all these factors make it unlikely that Ukraine will receive any new significant loans.

Putin needs three oblasts to make a land bridge to Crimea, Lugansk, Donetsk, and Zaporozhie, two of the three are being contested militarily right now, with every indication that Putin is pouring more military support to succeed in his endeavor to capture these three oblasts.  If he succeeds he will have the land bridge from Russia to Ukraine, control of the Dnipro Canal water supply, and control of the six reactors in Zaporozhia that supplies the bulk of Crimea's electricity.  If this WEREN'T true, the Kerch Strait bridge, would be something more than a piece of paper that it is right now, it's just a proposal, and not a priority, as it should be given Crimea's serious transportation issue, so Putins's gamble is that he can take these three oblasts more quickly than he build a bridge.

As I've noted previously, if he succeeds in taking these three oblasts away from Ukraine as he did with Crimea, will he stop there, or will he keep going and take all of southern Ukraine and link up to Transnistria?  Putin's strategy is likely a mixture of military and economic warfare, if Ukraine collapses economically, it's likey that Ukraine will fragment into different regions, Putin can then pick the ones he wants and no one can stop him.

Who wants to die for Ukraine, any takers?

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Re: Ukraine-The Future
« Reply #199 on: November 25, 2014, 10:45:24 AM »
Gator, as you note, without external aid, Ukraine will likely face an economic collapse sometime within the next few months.  In the past, such aid has primarily appeared in the form of loans, it is becoming increasingly unlikely that Ukraine will be able to support repayment of even past loans after March or so (and this is not even considering new loans).  Based on this uncomfortable reality, I'm not sure who's going to stick their neck out for Ukraine.  Also keep in mind, that some of the amount previously borrowed ended up in off-shore accounts off the Yanukovych "family" (now likely transferred to Russian banks), and that Ukraine never lived up to its promises which were conditions for receiving previous IMF loans, all these factors make it unlikely that Ukraine will receive any new significant loans.

Putin needs three oblasts to make a land bridge to Crimea, Lugansk, Donetsk, and Zaporozhie, two of the three are being contested militarily right now, with every indication that Putin is pouring more military support to succeed in his endeavor to capture these three oblasts.  If he succeeds he will have the land bridge from Russia to Ukraine, control of the Dnipro Canal water supply, and control of the six reactors in Zaporozhia that supplies the bulk of Crimea's electricity.  If this WEREN'T true, the Kerch Strait bridge, would be something more than a piece of paper that it is right now, it's just a proposal, and not a priority, as it should be given Crimea's serious transportation issue, so Putins's gamble is that he can take these three oblasts more quickly than he build a bridge.

As I've noted previously, if he succeeds in taking these three oblasts away from Ukraine as he did with Crimea, will he stop there, or will he keep going and take all of southern Ukraine and link up to Transnistria?  Putin's strategy is likely a mixture of military and economic warfare, if Ukraine collapses economically, it's likey that Ukraine will fragment into different regions, Putin can then pick the ones he wants and no one can stop him.

Who wants to die for Ukraine, any takers?

Very good analysis but it's a short-term one.  For a much better long-term analysis for the astute reader they should just look at what Ukraine did to Nazi Germany about 75 years ago.  Don't underestimate their resolve, and don't underestimate the resolve of the economic sanctions nor the resolve of a more honorable nation like Britain.  This thing is far from over.

 

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