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Author Topic: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences  (Read 121122 times)

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #225 on: July 23, 2014, 07:16:46 PM »

LMFAO


You also thought it was a win-win situation.


290 dead later and I'm still waiting for at least a 2 minute penalty.



Yes I believe it COULD have been a win-win....and it still could be for future generations, but only if the parties can negotiate a deal between the parties.  We (The USA) have apparently  emboldened Poroshenko into thinking he doesn't have to negotiate...but he is not going to get the real support he needs so he does indeed need to either fight or negotiate....his problem isn't just going to just go away....maybe not ever. 


We have never heard was said between the leaders.  What were the Russian Separatists/Russia asking for?  Was it utterly ridiculous?  Was it simply to federate some lands?  Sure ideally Russia, shouldn't interfere at all, but they are going to...so make the best of it, because we won't stop them. 


What is this about you and your little 2 minute penalty?


Fathetime!     
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Offline southernX

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #226 on: July 23, 2014, 07:43:14 PM »
FT
Quote
We have never heard was said between the leaders.  What were the Russian Separatists/Russia asking for?  Was it utterly ridiculous?  Was it simply to federate some lands?  Sure ideally Russia, shouldn't interfere at all, but they are going to...so make the best of it, because we won't stop them. 
,

what they want is nothing short or total seperation from ukraine
a lot has been offered to them , which at the start was what they seemed to be asking about within ukraine , as time has gone by the ambit claim has been shifted with the goal posts each month ,

now they want to be as putin has told them , part of russia , and nothign short of that will suffice , so why would poroshenko continue to negotiate on what for ukraine is non negotiable and always has been FT ?

would america take such behaviour and negotiate to give up a state ?
would any country ??  especially when it is done by russia proxxys ?

SX

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #227 on: July 23, 2014, 07:53:52 PM »
FT,

what they want is nothing short or total seperation from ukraine
a lot has been offered to them , which at the start was what they seemed to be asking about within ukraine , as time has gone by the ambit claim has been shifted with the goal posts each month ,

now they want to be as putin has told them , part of russia , and nothign short of that will suffice , so why would poroshenko continue to negotiate on what for ukraine is non negotiable and always has been FT ?
 

SX


Hey SX, can you show me a link or video where I can verify that during the negotiation between the leaders, that was what was asked for?  If the Russian Separatists are asking for that, and are unwilling to negotiate I'd say that is unreasonable. 


My impression was that Russia, was interested in Ukraine becoming a Federation as Putin had said months ago. If that were all they were going for, it may be worth taking, considering the hell Russia is going to raise otherwise...


Fathertime! 
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Offline lonedrake

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #228 on: July 23, 2014, 08:07:03 PM »
Here is a letter a Ukrainian girl wrote to one of the plane victims parents.


Aleksandra Kovaleva
Dear Hans de Borst,

Probably, you will never read this. Perhaps it would be even better.

I am very sorry that your daughter died in the Boeing 777, shot down over my country. Unlike Russia, Ukraine never had any wars or terrorist attacks, this is why every death is a big shock for us. This is why now Ukrainians crowding near Embassy of Netherlands in Kiev, bringing mountains of flowers, candles and toys for dead children. For your daughter too. I know, you think we cannot understand and cannot feel, what you feel, and you are right. But we are fair in our feelings.

My name is Aleksandra, I live in Ukraine and when at night storm begins (it happens sometimes – cold summer), I wake up in a cold sweat, because I think that the bombing of my city has started.

You said that your only daughter was 17 years old and she wanted to become an architector.

Let me introduce you to Sergei Nigoyan. He was 21 and he was also the only son in his family. He died January 22, 2014 in Kiev. He was the first victim of police of our ex-dictator, Viktor Yanukovych. After, there were 100 people more killed by Yanukovich police: shooted, bombed, burned. Many of them were the only sons, daughters, mothers and fathers. Troupes of those people were lying on my street in Kiev, in the church in front of my house. After these first deaths you EU goverments has finally started to move their asses. At least somehow. But when we, Ukrainians, demanded justice, your European politicians sat at the negotiating table with a killer Yanukovych. And in that moment, when we were haveng the burial service for those, who were killed, EU politicians forced Ukrainian opposition (which is now the Ukrainian government to which in particular you address your letter) to sign a shameful peace treaty with Yanukovych and leave the killer as a president for one more year. Why? Because our lives were not worth anything to your governments.

Do you know how does it feel to have a neighboring country that diminishes your country to 'zone of influence' and wishes of its people as an 'issue' to be 'taken care of' to be molded into new imperial matrix? Of course, you dont. You also probably consider that Ukraine is actually somehow Russia's vassal. But your ancestors knew what does it mean. They knew in the Middle Ages, when your country fought for independence from the Spanish Empire. It was so long ago, that now you cannot imagine, what is happening between Ukraine and Russia. And of course you don’t have to. It is not your business. It is business of world politicians, who have to handle it.

We also thought so.

When Putin annexed part of Ukrainian territory - the Crimean peninsula, we thought that Western goverments will do what they promised. You see, UK, USA, and, basically, France had to handle it, since they signed the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, according to which, they were providing security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine. By signing this memorandum Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, since all the signatories assured us that they guarantee the safety of our state. Maybe if West would not force Ukraine to sign it, we would still have nuclear weapons, and Russia would not dare to do what she did, and nothing would have happenyou’re your daughter or my friends. But unfortunately Ukraine was fair and did everything according to the memorandum. Unlike European countries and USA, who simply violated it. All they did, just to show they did something – was only empty talks. Their signatures under international document mean nothing, unless it is profitable for them. Moreover, France, which also gave to Ukraine individual assurances in Budapest, not only violated it, but even refused not to sell to Russia newly built warships. So, France, headed by monsieur Hollande, is now cynically arming the aggressor. Why? Because it is profitable. As for Europe was profitable to cooperate with Hitler in the 30s, to feed him Poland, Czech Republic, to forgive Austria. It was easy, it did not require them to use their conscience. Hope you are smart enough not to expect for justice from these people.

When Putin have began to send his terrorists to the East of my country, when he started supplying them with heavy weapons, EU politicians did nothing to stop him. They urged our government to hold peace talks with the Russian terrorists who were actually tortured people to death cutting their stomachs open. EU, trying to show, they did at least something, provided weakest possible sanctions to Russia, which did not change anything.

Now when Russian army bombing Ukraine from Russian territory, Frau Merkel sits next to Putin on football game and shakes his hand. You don’t know, that Russia openly bombing Ukraine? Sure. Your media is not really talking about it. Because you should not think that just a few hundred kilometers from the EU the real war is going on, and hundreds and hundreds of only daughters and only sons of ukrainian parents are killed by Russia-sponsored terrorists and Russian army that helps them. Yesterday, July 20, two children have been blown up by a mine set by pro-russian terrorists. These children were 16 and 15 years old. Your medias don’t talk about this, because why should you, european civilians, worry that the country that supplies you gas and oil blows Ukrainian children. Ukrainian children are not profitable. Gas and oil - is.

Every time when you fuel your car, you may use the gas made from the russian oil. Every time you put water on fire to cook your dinner, you may use russian gas. These contracts with Russia, which are more profitable than Budapest memorandum, made your European politicians to turn away from unprofitable issue of Ukraine, to brake their promises and violate international treaties, and pretend all these months that nothing happens.

I'm not saying that the Ukrainian government is not to be blamed for the death of your daughter. In February 2014 this soon-to-be government, under pressure of EU politics, had agreed to sign a shameful treaty with Yanukovych and leave him as president for one more year. One of the reasons why it felt through was because Ukrainian people did not let it happen. Did not let to do it neither to our government, nor to your weak and duplicitous EU politicians.

All I want to say, is that before pointing fingers and assigning blame, you could probably expand your list of those responsible for the death of your daughter and add to it your EU governments. At the end of the day, it was them, who all these months were having under-carpet negotiations with Putin, it was them, who was not listening to Ukrainian authorities, when they were screaming to all the world again and again, that Russia is starting the war. It was them, who, under pressure of Putin’s lobby, was forcing Ukrainian government to start negotiations with pro-russian terrorists, those terrorists with Russian weapons, who shot down Boeing 777 with your daughter. Your beautiful talented young and happy Elsemiek on board. You wait justice? You think that your government is able to provide it, the real one? The same politicians, who shook hands with Putin? I highly doubt it.

I have nothing to do with Ukrainian government, with politicians or business.
I cannot imagine your loss.
And most likely, you don’t care what I am saying.

I am just a Ukrainian girl, who wakes up at nights, during thunderstorms, thinking, that they bomb my city.

But once again.

I am so sorry.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #229 on: July 23, 2014, 08:08:35 PM »
The terrorists leadership has always maintained its objective is to become part of Russia.  Not surprising, given they are all Russian nationals, with long histories of agitating, and even killing, for Russian ultranationalist causes. 

During the ceasefire negotiations, the terrorists refused any compromise.  That is why the ceasefires were unilateral.

None of this is hidden, it is all over the net.


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline JohnDearGreen

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #230 on: July 23, 2014, 08:21:55 PM »
Hey SX, can you show me a link or video where I can verify that during the negotiation between the leaders, that was what was asked for?  If the Russian Separatists are asking for that, and are unwilling to negotiate I'd say that is unreasonable. 
Not sure why the leaders would want to negotiate an end, when Russia plans to kill the 3 leaders as soon as battle is over, or sooner.
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/214968.html
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 08:24:05 PM by JohnDearGreen »

Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #231 on: July 23, 2014, 08:34:02 PM »
The terrorists leadership has always maintained its objective is to become part of Russia.  Not surprising, given they are all Russian nationals, with long histories of agitating, and even killing, for Russian ultranationalist causes. 

During the ceasefire negotiations, the terrorists refused any compromise.  That is why the ceasefires were unilateral.

None of this is hidden, it is all over the net.
Thanks if true, that is not reasonable of the Russian Separatists...but I was thinking that Putin and Poroshenko should have spoken by now...I was going to say over the phone at least, but the USA would probably tap the phone call and eavesdrop.... 


I just read that 25 Ukrainian military were killed today and over 100 wounded.  Why haven't the two leaders spoken? 
Fathertime! 
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Offline BillyB

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #232 on: July 23, 2014, 08:42:45 PM »
I was thinking that Putin and Poroshenko should have spoken by now..



They've met. They've spoken. No progress was made. Poroshenko wants Russia to leave his country alone. It's difficult for him to deal with Putin since Putin continues to promote death of his citizens, civil war, and the breakup of his country.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline southernX

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #233 on: July 23, 2014, 08:48:44 PM »
  FT
Quote
Hey SX, can you show me a link or video where I can verify that during the negotiation between the leaders, that was what was asked for?  If the Russian Separatists are asking for that, and are unwilling to negotiate I'd say that is unreasonable. 
FT if you have been following this saga of invasion and destabilisation from the start you should know this  ;)

Quote
Thanks if true, that is not reasonable of the Russian Separatists...but I was thinking that Putin and Poroshenko should have spoken by now...I was going to say over the phone at least, but the USA would probably tap the phone call and eavesdrop.... 


I just read that 25 Ukrainian military were killed today and over 100 wounded.  Why haven't the two leaders spoken? 
Fathertime! 

again as above, , yes they have spoken , problem is putin wants the same as the terrorists, for poroshenko it is non negotiable , hence the multiple course of action , continued ATO push & negotiation & support gathering from outside ukraine for there right to sovereign rule

FT are you sure your reading all this information as bo said  it  is easily available to find

maybe with family and friends there we are intensivly reading all this every day usually , so for us it seems obvious
 

SX
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Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #234 on: July 23, 2014, 09:42:34 PM »
  FTFT if you have been following this saga of invasion and destabilisation from the start you should know this  ;)

again as above, , yes they have spoken , problem is putin wants the same as the terrorists, for poroshenko it is non negotiable , hence the multiple course of action , continued ATO push & negotiation & support gathering from outside ukraine for there right to sovereign rule

FT are you sure your reading all this information as bo said  it  is easily available to find

maybe with family and friends there we are intensivly reading all this every day usually , so for us it seems obvious
 

SX


Well SX, if it is obvious that Putin was asking for more than Ukraine being a federation, then it should be easy to find.   I haven't' seen the link showing him asking for anything more than a federation, and I haven't heard differently and I've been looking.  I don't think that is an accurate statement, but I'm open to being proved wrong with a trustworthy link. 

.  Yes Ukraine, is sovereign and Russia doesn't care...as you know the USA doesn't care about sovereignty either when it comes to what they want do.

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #235 on: July 23, 2014, 09:52:23 PM »

They've met. They've spoken. No progress was made. Poroshenko wants Russia to leave his country alone. It's difficult for him to deal with Putin since Putin continues to promote death of his citizens, civil war, and the breakup of his country.


Thanks Billyb, this is what I wanted to hear...now if they met....I want to know what was said, why was no progress made?  What was Putin demanding exactly?  I guess there are no details....TO ME that is the critical information. 




Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #236 on: July 23, 2014, 10:17:51 PM »
How can they negotiate terms if they can't even negotiate a ceasefire?


Even Merkel has stated Putin has failed to meet any of the conditions he agreed to in trilateral negotiations.


What the US has done in the world is irrelevant to Russia's actions in Ukraine.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #237 on: July 23, 2014, 10:34:05 PM »

What the US has done in the world is irrelevant to Russia's actions in Ukraine....but we don't have to agree on that point.


I disagree entirely...I believe that the USA worldwide actions have helped to cause the Russian actions in Ukraine.


How can they negotiate terms if they can't even negotiate a ceasefire?


Even Merkel has stated Putin has failed to meet any of the conditions he agreed to in trilateral negotiations.




It seems that nobody has said publicly what was said behind closed doors when Putin and Poroshenko were in the same room.  I'm curious to hear what EXACTLY the hangup is. 


Fathertime!   

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #238 on: July 23, 2014, 10:49:30 PM »

I disagree entirely...I believe that the USA worldwide actions have helped to cause the Russian actions in Ukraine.

Did US actions worldwide cause the Red Army to fight nationalists in Western Ukraine from 1941 to the mid 1950's?  Or to execute prominent Ukrainians living in the West?  Did US actions cause the invasion of Western Ukraine in 1939?  The Holodomor in 1932-1933?  The invasion of Ukraine in 1921-1922?  The partition of Ukraine in 1793?  The destruction of the Sich in 1775? 


Did US actions compel Putin to tell Dubya that "Ukraine is not a real country"? 

Quote
It seems that nobody has said publicly what was said behind closed doors when Putin and Poroshenko were in the same room.  I'm curious to hear what EXACTLY the hangup is. 

Promises about ending the violence were made that were not kept.  In fact, the violence has been ramped up.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 10:55:52 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #239 on: July 23, 2014, 10:59:22 PM »
Did US actions worldwide cause the Red Army to fight nationalists in Western Ukraine from 1941 to the mid 1950's?  Or to execute prominent Ukrainians living in the West?  Did US actions cause the invasion of Western Ukraine in 1939?  The Holodomor in 1932-1933?  The invasion of Ukraine in 1921-1922?  The destruction of the Sich in 1775?  The partition of Ukraine in 1793?
 


Blah blah blah, I believe Russia has decided to seize Crimea and stir up trouble in E. Ukraine in 2014, as a reaction to expanding US global power/interference.  You are also entitled to your opinion that some event in 1932 is relevant to today.   




 

Promises about ending the violence were made that were not kept.  In fact, the violence has been ramped up.


[size=78%] The violence has ramped up.  [/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]    Show the membership the transcript in context about violence decreasing, and lets see what was said exactly and what it was predicated on.
Thanks,
Fathertime!       

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #240 on: July 23, 2014, 11:09:08 PM »
Here is a little video of what I found regarding the Poroshenko/Putin meeting.  Sounds like Putin was talking federalization.   




http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/06/06/putin-hopeful-after-meeting-poroshenko?videoId=313213417


Fathertime! 
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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #241 on: July 23, 2014, 11:46:38 PM »

Blah blah blah, I believe Russia has decided to seize Crimea and stir up trouble in E. Ukraine in 2014, as a reaction to expanding US global power/interference.  You are also entitled to your opinion that some event in 1932 is relevant to today.   

You can believe whatever you wish, but the history of the region, the current Russian president, Russian interference and influence in Ukraine since its 1991 declaration of independence, the Russian angst at the loss of empire, and the attitudes prevalent in the press, as espoused by Russian speakers online, apparently are all apparently beyond your knowledge, and perhaps your comprehension.  You see things through the prism of America. 

The point was not whether past events are relevant today.  The point is, Russia has invaded, occupied, and interfered in Ukraine for over 300 years, so why would that change in a scant two decades?

America has nothing to do with the origins, or continuation of, conflict.  Russia is not concerned about Ukraine joining NATO.  It is not concerned about Ukraine's current government, which ruled Ukraine during the Yushchenko presidency, when it evidently was not "fascist".  Russia is concerned about losing its influence in Ukraine, which Russia's leader believes is an integral part of Russian history, when Ukraine turns West to the EU.  Not America, the EU.

In the past 2 decades, Ukrainian presidents were either influenced by Russia (Kuchma, Yanukovych) or forced to be conciliatory (Yushchenko), because Ukraine's industries were tied to Russia, part of the legacy of the USSR.  That is partly why Russian gas to Ukraine was subsidized.  Russia began to detach itself from those systems, and, within a year, they will be fully detached.  However, the economic levers are still there, and they weaken if Ukraine turns to the EU.

You embody the worst stereotypes of an American.  You see everything through an American prism, and view American action, or inaction, as cause/effect.  Believe it or not, not all foreign policy world over is crafted based on what America does, or has done.  You also are information light, as based on your posts, you do not have even a basic knowledge of the the region, or what is behind this conflict.    The past is very relevant because the loss of Ukrainian lands is painful to some of the Russian elite, which is parroted in its press and absorbed by a percentage of its citizens. Unfortunately, those elite hold the levers of power.  Even after this conflict is resolved, Russia will continue to interfere in Ukrainian affairs. 

Quote
Show the membership the transcript in context about violence decreasing, and lets see what was said exactly and what it was predicated on.

A ceasefire presupposes violence will decrease.  There aren't typically mass war casualties when both sides of a conflict cease shooting at one another.



Now, why should Putin have any say in how Ukraine is governed?  Ukraine is an independent state.  Its populace, not a foreign leader, should decide how it is governed.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 12:39:01 AM by Boethius »
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Offline roykirk

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #242 on: July 24, 2014, 05:55:28 AM »

Well SX, if it is obvious that Putin was asking for more than Ukraine being a federation, then it should be easy to find.   I haven't' seen the link showing him asking for anything more than a federation, and I haven't heard differently and I've been looking.  I don't think that is an accurate statement, but I'm open to being proved wrong with a trustworthy link. 

.  Yes Ukraine, is sovereign and Russia doesn't care...as you know the USA doesn't care about sovereignty either when it comes to what they want do.

Fathertime! 

As much as I'm always looking for something negative to hang around Putin's neck, I've never personally heard him say that he wants Eastern Ukraine to be allowed to join Russia or to become an independent country.  It's always been something vague like "more autonomy."  I have to imagine that right now, Putin doesn't want anything to do with more of Ukraine trying to join Russia.  Crimea is already threatening to bankrupt the federal coffers.  Remember when the "Republic of Donetsk" voted to join Russia?  Seems Putin forgot to send a welcome wagon.   :D   But with Putin his demands are always impossible to decipher.  A classic example is what's going on right now.  Putin demands that Kiev must do more to end the violence in Eastern Ukraine.  So when Ukraine tries to stop bombing, the terrorists take over more towns and government buildings.  When they try to dislodge them, Putin is crying about the violence again.  I guess what Putin really wants is for Ukraine to wait passively until enough weapons and insurgents cross over from Russia to take over the entire country. 

Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #243 on: July 24, 2014, 06:40:40 AM »


In the past 2 decades, Ukrainian presidents were either influenced by Russia (Kuchma, Yanukovych) or forced to be conciliatory (Yushchenko), because Ukraine's industries were tied to Russia, part of the legacy of the USSR.  That is partly why Russian gas to Ukraine was subsidized.  Russia began to detach itself from those systems, and, within a year, they will be fully detached.  However, the economic levers are still there, and they weaken if Ukraine turns to the EU.

You embody the worst stereotypes of an American.  You see everything through an American prism, and view American action, or inaction, as cause/effect.  Believe it or not, not all foreign policy world over is crafted based on what America does, or has done.  You also are information light, as based on your posts, you do not have even a basic knowledge of the the region, or what is behind this conflict.    The past is very relevant because the loss of Ukrainian lands is painful to some of the Russian elite, which is parroted in its press and absorbed by a percentage of its citizens. Unfortunately, those elite hold the levers of power.  Even after this conflict is resolved, Russia will continue to interfere in Ukrainian affairs. 
 

 


Information overload, I contend that what happened in 1793 is irrelevant….I think you throw all this ancient history out there to sound smart and important.  In 1874 the British east India company was dissolved…and who cares?   Not every worldwide event has to be seen through the prism of the USA, but this event can be at least in part…and you want to fall back on your history and act like a big shot that knows everything that is fine, but I don’t buy it.  I think that Russia is reacting to what it sees as unfriendly nations creeping up on its borders….but you are free to feel otherwise and pretend that events in 1921 are relevant to today. 



A ceasefire presupposes violence will decrease.  There aren't typically mass war casualties when both sides of a conflict cease shooting at one another.



I said show me the evidence a ceasefire was even on the table and you make a silly statement that a 3rd grader knows....no durrrrrrr  people aren't killed when nobody is shooting at each other.   





Now, why should Putin have any say in how Ukraine is governed?  Ukraine is an independent state.  Its populace, not a foreign leader, should decide how it is governed.


Everybody knows that in a perfect world Russia would permit Ukraine to do it's own thing....but you are forgetting the fact that things are NOT perfect and Russia IS interfering.  So now that this is the case...you can choose to fight or you can choose to negotiate the best deal possible and move on.  Don't expect the rest of the world to step up, and fight your fight for you. speaking of fighting.....there was quite a brawl in the Rada yesterday. Those Svoboda guys are tough. 









Fathertime! 



I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2014, 06:53:15 AM »

I disagree entirely...I believe that the USA worldwide actions have helped to cause the Russian actions in Ukraine.

That is because of your self defecating demeanor. You want US actions to be the reason. You are partially correct but for the wrong reasons. Putin is emboldened because of the weak Western leadership. No other reason. There is a leadership vacuum and Putin looks to fill it. It is you FT who epitomizes what is wrong with the West.



Quote
It seems that nobody has said publicly what was said behind closed doors when Putin and Poroshenko were in the same room.  I'm curious to hear what EXACTLY the hangup is. 


Fathertime!


There is nothing anyone can say or any link that can be provided you, to equate or feed the fantasy you have of your comprehension or relevance of the situation between Russia and Ukraine. You have no understanding and apparently no reach for capability of understanding. The U.S. is to blame only because of the yellow spined president you elected fails to stand up to the threat of Putin. He fails to rally the European nations which are directly affected. Putin is being the bully here and you can't comprehend that because of your need to shit all over your own country/self

Offline fathertime

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #245 on: July 24, 2014, 07:06:22 AM »
That is because of your self defecating demeanor. You want US actions to be the reason. You are partially correct but for the wrong reasons. Putin is emboldened because of the weak Western leadership. No other reason. There is a leadership vacuum and Putin looks to fill it. It is you FT who epitomizes what is wrong with the West.



And what from your perspective is wrong with the west?   That we aren't ruling the entire planet?  A 'leadership vacuum'....exactly how many interventions are you for?





There is nothing anyone can say or any link that can be provided you, to equate or feed the fantasy you have of your comprehension or relevance of the situation between Russia and Ukraine. You have no understanding and apparently no reach for capability of understanding. The U.S. is to blame only because of the yellow spined president you elected fails to stand up to the threat of Putin. He fails to rally the European nations which are directly affected. Putin is being the bully here and you can't comprehend that because of your need to shit all over your own country/self


No link is right...because nobody here knows what was said between Poroshenko and Putin...people are fantasizing that Putin is demanding all of E. Ukraine...just like you fantasized that Putin was 'marching all the way into Kiev'. I don't believe Putin wants to own E. Ukraine, the evidence appears to be that he wants it to be a part of the Ukraine Federation.,,obviously because it is better for his country.   
So Obama is 'yellow-spined'...and what exactly is your solution?  How are you going to convince Europe to do something they seem to believe is  against their best interests?  If asking these questions and putting blame where it belongs is crapping all over myself then give me some shampoo I've got some cleaning up to attend to. 


Fathertime!   

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #246 on: July 24, 2014, 07:14:49 AM »

There is nothing anyone can say or any link that can be provided you, to equate or feed the fantasy you have of your comprehension or relevance of the situation between Russia and Ukraine. You have no understanding and apparently no reach for capability of understanding. The U.S. is to blame only because of the yellow spined president you elected fails to stand up to the threat of Putin. He fails to rally the European nations which are directly affected. Putin is being the bully here and you can't comprehend that because of your need to shit all over your own country/self


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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #247 on: July 24, 2014, 07:45:32 AM »
The U.S. is to blame only because of the yellow spined president you elected fails to stand up to the threat of Putin. He fails to rally the European nations which are directly affected.

I tend to think that Obama would be screwed no matter what he did.  My parents are some of the most vehement Obama haters you'll ever meet.  My debate with them the other night pretty much sums up how screwed he is.  Their argument was just as you say, the U.S. is to blame for the events in Ukraine because Obama is weak and won't do anything to help Ukraine and stand up to Putin.  So I asked them if what they wanted was boots on the ground in Ukraine or perhaps even to march on Moscow.  Of course not, they replied, "don't be ridiculous!"  So what is he supposed to do, I asked.  "Stop being weak and stand up to Putin," was all they could muster.  I still don't know what that means.   :-\

The U.S., in general, gets damned no matter what we do and no matter who the president is.  If we put a single soldier on the ground or shipped a single bullet to Ukraine, we'd be accused of trying to be the "world's cop" and condemned for getting involved in something that was none of our business.  When we sit on our hands and do nothing we get accused of failing to be a world leader.  I like John McCain in a lot of ways, but the man drives me nuts when he constantly wants to wage war on one nation or another and yet you know he'd be the first to call for Obama's ouster if he authorized a single bullet to be fired. 

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #248 on: July 24, 2014, 08:32:27 AM »
I tend to think that Obama would be screwed no matter what he did.  My parents are some of the most vehement Obama haters you'll ever meet.  My debate with them the other night pretty much sums up how screwed he is.  Their argument was just as you say, the U.S. is to blame for the events in Ukraine because Obama is weak and won't do anything to help Ukraine and stand up to Putin.  So I asked them if what they wanted was boots on the ground in Ukraine or perhaps even to march on Moscow.  Of course not, they replied, "don't be ridiculous!"  So what is he supposed to do, I asked.  "Stop being weak and stand up to Putin," was all they could muster.
Quote
I still don't know what that means.
  :-\

I'll try to help. Ukraine isn't a fight of the U.S.. It is however of grave concern to NATO nations. NATO is an alliance of which the U.S. belongs and NATO pivots on U.S. leadership. A very grave concern. Soviet aggression is the reason NATO was formed to begin with. Yes, Ukraine isn't part of NATO but, Ukraine is bordering NATO nations as is Russia. Ukraine is now the victim of Russian aggression. No, U.S. troops should not be sent to Ukraine IMHO. This is a NATO European issue. Europe is unwilling so be it but, NATO should stand ready and yes aid Ukraine is it's effort to rid itself of Russian aggression. Europe with the leadership might have a different view. Nobody wishes to stand up to Putin knowing the U.S. will not back them

Quote
The U.S., in general, gets damned no matter what we do and no matter who the president is.  If we put a single soldier on the ground or shipped a single bullet to Ukraine, we'd be accused of trying to be the "world's cop" and condemned for getting involved in something that was none of our business.  When we sit on our hands and do nothing we get accused of failing to be a world leader.  I like John McCain in a lot of ways, but the man drives me nuts when he constantly wants to wage war on one nation or another and yet you know he'd be the first to call for Obama's ouster if he authorized a single bullet to be fired.

The only thing required of Obama is leadership. Not troops, no bullets, just leadership and backing Europe as needed. Instead of the leader of the free world he has resorted to the Fundraiser in Chief. The democratic candidates are thankful

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Re: Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences
« Reply #249 on: July 24, 2014, 08:40:50 AM »



Yes I believe it COULD have been a win-win....and it still could be for future generations, but only if the parties can negotiate a deal between the parties.  We (The USA) have apparently  emboldened Poroshenko into thinking he doesn't have to negotiate...but he is not going to get the real support he needs so he does indeed need to either fight or negotiate....his problem isn't just going to just go away....maybe not ever. 


We have never heard was said between the leaders.  What were the Russian Separatists/Russia asking for?  Was it utterly ridiculous?  Was it simply to federate some lands?  Sure ideally Russia, shouldn't interfere at all, but they are going to...so make the best of it, because we won't stop them. 


What is this about you and your little 2 minute penalty?


Fathetime!   


That is the most stoopid statement I've heard from you so far.


A little federation?


What are you referring to? Cede parts of Ukraine to Russia and develop a never ending frozen conflict so the country will never get on its own feet?


Please explain to me how this is going to benefit future generations of Ukrainians?


Statements like this tells he you are here just to bust our balls.


Now, if you are being serious, then you belong with sociopaths.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

 

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