Amsterdam, May 29 to June 5

[Al_C]

I am going for it again.  This will be trip #4.

Why Amsterdam?  Because the lady I will be meeting has a HUGE family in St. Petersburg and was insistent that we meet somewhere else to keep them from meddling.  Her reasoning made sense to me, so we e-mailed back and forth for about two months, until we finally came up with Amsterdam as a good place:  Easy visa for her, no visa required for me, and beautiful and romantic settings.

She declined to have me buy her airline ticket and paid for it herself (she is not hurting for money).  I picked up the hotel tab as well as my own plane ticket and will no doubt pick up the tab for the bulk of the meals and entertainment there, but that is fine with me and exactly what I expect.

This will be my first time in Amsterdam.  Has anyone been there?  Any advice for me?  She has been there more than once, but I don't want to rely on her for tourist info.  I learned from one disatrous trip to Novosibirsk that such reliance makes for a really bad impression on your lady.  This one looks like a keeper, and I want to do things really well.  The fact that she insisted on paying for her own airline ticket still blows me away.

Well, that is about it for the preliminaries.  I will be arriving a day ahead of her because the tour package I got saved me big bucks but required May 28 as the latest possible arrival date.

I leave New York the evening of May 27.

Al

[viking]

Hey Al

Good to hear you got back into the saddle. I know you have been down this road before so I hope this one works out for you. I wish you the best. Is this your first meeing with her? If it is, just take it slow. And let me know how it goes.

[Ronnie]

I guess I'm the resident skeptic.  Some things you wrote don't fit the normal mold.  Having a large family is no reason for her not to want to met you in St Petersburg.  When you do this (meet in Amsterdam), you can have no plan B so when you realize the first few minutes it was a mistake (not predicting just mentioning the probabilities) what can you do?

It won't surprise me if she waits until the last minute, then comes up with an emergency requiring the money be spent elsewhere (sick grandma, car broke down, etc.) so she has return her ticket and cancel the trip.  Obviously you will send her money by WU rather than waste the money you've already spent on the trip.

Why did you sign up for a tour if you want time with her..especially if she knows the city well.  She'd take great pleasure in showing you around.  What happened in Novo that you thing being shown around caused a disaster?  It's something they love to do..show a visitor their city.

Please report back and let us know how things go.

Again, I'm a skeptic naturally...no offense.

[ScottinCrimea]

I guess I'll join Ronnie in the skeptics section.  St Petersburg is big enough that family would never even have to know that you are there.  Also, I have yet to meet ANY RW with a huge family.  Again, no offense, just my thoughts.

[Al_C]

In answer to the skeptics, first, I saw documentary evidence that the ticket she bought is non-refundable.  I did not ask for the evidence; she sent it to me with no prompting from me whatsoever.

The tour package simply consists of the hotel reservation and airline ticket and nothing else.  The tour company offered activities as add-ons, which I turned down.  Why did I get it?  Answer:   $$$.  The cost to me was about 2/3 of a separate hotel and airline ticket.  The hotel, the only part of it the lady sees, is a high quality 4 star place.

The disaster in NovosibirsK?  The woman had a car, drove us around for a few days, and then decided that I was a weak "me too" type of person, not the take charge individual she was looking for.  Exactly the opposite is true, but she did not see that since she was literally in the driver's seat.

As for her family, the reason I understand it is that I have a huge family here in New York, and if the situtation were reversed, I would not want her coming here to New York for the exact same reason.  I would meet her in Martha's Vineyard, Atlantic City, or something like that, far from my crowd of well-meaning but uninformed relatives.

I know huge families in St. Pete are rare, but I saw her family photos.  She was not kidding.  There are a gazillion of them.

I know that I am rolling the dice meeting one woman in a strange city. If the risk comes to pass, well, there is always the red light district.  It would not be the first time (see Novosibirsk trip, above).

Any more questions?

[Phil dAmore]

Hey Al:

I don't see a downside here.  If things work out well, that's great.  If the meeting is a disaster... you are still in Amsterdam!  Do me a favor and check out a few of those famous coffee shops and report back, okay?   

Good luck!

[Dennis]

having lived in Vienna for 5 years and having had two trips to Amsterdam may I offer something you could do together or alone if it dont work out.   Dont know if you or she is the fitness/sporting type but I was there once with a woman I met in Vienna and again alone.  Both times I went to Mikes Bikes and we rented bikes and rode all over the city one day then south through the Dykes the next day and the following day north along the sea.  We saw much together, had many stops in little romantic cafes and sat for some time along the sea and had a really nice tour of the city and it was a great time together.  The biking took some of the akwardness off the time together while allowing a comfortable and interesting was to break the ice.  No stress, no pressure and it was somethign no one ever done with this lady so she was really impressed with the idea. .  The remaining days we went back on foot and revisited some of the interesting places we saw while on the bikes.

Furthermore you can search for a site where you can rent one of the converted boats on the canals instead of a traditional hotel.  We did this and it was SUPER!!  Very romantic.  ANother "something Different" that had a powerful positive impact.  Mikes will let you keep the bikes for several days with a credit card security.  I would still be with this woman if I did not do something stupid after 6 months together but I have learned that to think out side of the box leads to fantastic resullts.

Houseboat: http://www.stayamsterdam.com/apartment-detail.php?aptid=1514&arr_day=&arr_month=&arr_year=&dep_day=&dep_month=&dep_year=&OVRAW=Amsterdam%20houseboat%20rentals&OVKEY=amsterdam%20house%20boat%20rental&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=11471743522&OVKWID=86264060022

or

http://www.houseboats.nl/

Mikes:

http://www.mikesbikeamsterdam.com/

Good luck.

[groovlstk]

Al,

I'm glad to see you're back in the game. If I remember correctly when you first began posting years ago your biggest obstacle was lack of vacation time. I hope you're able to make this one count.

I've been to Amsterdam and it's a beautiful city, nearly everyone I bumped into spoke English, and navigating is very easy.

Your experience w/the Novosibirsk woman is worthy of its own thread. I know I/O took a lot of flack months ago when he posted that a guy should pay his own taxi fares, negotiate w/shop owners, etc. rather than sit back like a child and let his date do everything for him. In places like Russia or Ukraine, where weak men are reviled, this could be an important consideration.

[KenC]

Al,
I see nothing wrong with what you're doing at all.  It all makes perfect sense to me.  She certainly doesn't appear to be "working you" with her purchase of her airline ticket.  Go to your local bookstore and pick up a Frommer's guide or a similar guide book for Amsterdam and read through it for ideas.  Go with a plan of what you two might want to do and see.  Be "in charge" but also be considerate to the lady too.  Show some initiative in doing your research.  I have been to Amsterdam, but I am sure you do not want to go on the tour my buddy and I cooked up! :hairraising:

BTW. this is what I did (the guide book not the other)when I met my wife in Moscow almost 10 years ago.  I think she was secretly impressed that I was making suggestions of where to go and what to see more than she was!  Almost no "home field" advantage for her!
Best of luck to you.
KenC

[Al_C]

Thank you all for your great ideas.  The lady already mentioned that she wants to do certain things, to which I replied yes, of course.  Now she is hinting pretty strongly that it is my turn to come up with ideas because she wants to know what I want to do.

I don't know if she rides a bike.  I, for one, have not been on one since I was a child.  I hope I remember how.

I have been googling for activities in Amsterdam, but I suppose I should go to the Barnes and Noble and pick up a guidebook.

[Ronnie]

In answer to the skeptics, first, I saw documentary evidence that the ticket she bought is non-refundable.  I did not ask for the evidence; she sent it to me with no prompting from me whatsoever.

Far from dowsing my skepticism, you threw more fuel on the fire.  Why would she feel the need to provide you with proof you had not asked for?
Let me tell you where I'm coming from.  Four years ago on RWG, there was a guy in upstate NY who'd been writing a lady from Pitr.  She said she was well off and would come visit him in his city..I think it was Syracuse or Rochester.  She voluntarily sent him a scan of her ticket.  I offered to verify the ticket if he wanted and he sent me the scan.  I saw right away something was wrong.  The document was a Delta Airlines boarding pass with a travel date two weeks in the future.  I knew that boarding passes aren't issued until the last 24 hours before departure.  Just to be sure, called Delta (I'm a travel agent) and gave them the ticket number on the "document."  The Delta agent confirmed the number was theirs but that the ticket had been used a month earlier by a woman with a Russian name who had traveled from Fort Lauderdale, Florida to Moscow. 

Bottom line, with photo shop software, any discarded document can be altered and made to look 100% authentic.  You may be wondering why the guy got suspicious.  His mystery lady wrote saying her grandmother was in the hospital and needed emergency surgery so she would have to turn in her ticket and cancel the trip.  Never asked him for money directly but as someone posted, that's not what the sofisticated ones do.  The know they can get offers of money if they nurse a plausible story along..gaining one's confidence that all is legit.  BTW, the word "con," as in "con artist," comes from the word "confidence."

Having said all that, I agree with the the others; as long as you are prepared for the possibility of a scam...you probably won't fall for it.  Worst case then is you get a nice visit to Amsterdam.  Be sure to venture out to Utrecht, The Hague, Delft and Eindhoven (but read or watch "Band of Brothers" first).

[Al_C]

I hear you Ronnie, and I always maintain a state of scam alert readiness.

Why did she send it?  Perhaps she is accustomed to having to support her assertions with documents, so she simply figured I would want it.  I am guessing and really don't know.

But you should know that there have been none of the traditional red flags to date, and I did confirm that her address is genuine because I sent flowers there for Women's Day, Valentine's, etc, and the flower service took her photo on one of the deliveries and sent it to me.  So the photo is genuine too, often not the case with scammers.

The scam risk can never be zero.  Anybody wanting a zero scam risk had better stay within 50 miles of their house and definitely forget about a foreign country.  But I would say that the scam risk here is well within acceptable limits.

But thank you for your concern.

[Zmejka]

I just saw off my brother (he returned to Russia) and yesterday we returned from Amsterdam.
I suggest visiting museums - Rijksmuseum http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/index.jsp
i found Van Gogh museum very interesting - http://www3.vangoghmuseum.nl/vgm/index.jsp

they are both situated on the same square and have interesting audio tours in different languages.
Sexmuseum could be also interesting - http://sexmuseumamsterdam.nl/index2.html

Opposite the sexmuseum there are tourist boats that float 1 hour round Amsterdam canals.

Here's the site about other attractions in Amsterdam
http://www.amsterdam.info/

[Ronnie]

The scam risk can never be zero.  Anybody wanting a zero scam risk had better stay within 50 miles of their house and definitely forget about a foreign country. 

The scam risk can easily be zero.  Just go to city, pay an agency $15 per introduction..meet the ladies in the office, invite one to lunch or dinner if you find her interesting. If not, move on to your next appointment. 

Meeting a lady in a third city, especially one outside her country is never wise.  It's a risky WOVO on steroids.

[Al_C]

The scam risk can easily be zero.  Just go to city, pay an agency $15 per introduction..meet the ladies in the office, invite one to lunch or dinner if you find her interesting. If not, move on to your next appointment. 

Wanna bet?  I had one who told me whatever it took to get me there, gladly accepted my wining and dining, and then told me at the end that she had no intention of leaving Russia and just wanted a man to go there to wine/dine her. (A gal from EM).

Another one turned out to be a hooker.  She was a replacement for me from a local agency when the Novo woman I wrote about above went south.  The agency just wanted to keep me happy so I would come back to them (I didn't).  Yeah, she showed me a really good time, but I didn't have to fly 10,000 miles to get a hooker.  There is an ample supply of them here in New York.

I repeat:  The scam risk can never be zero.

[Catman]

I was in Holland in 95-96. Outside of Amsterdam is a nice place called Zaanse Schaanse(not sure of spelling) where the air smells like chocolate from a chocolate factory and you can walk through the windmills, little village, very nice. Leidseplein(Amsterdam) is interesting with about 40 bars in a square with the Bulldog the big main bar. Rembrandts-plein is a nice square filled with bars and cabarets. Of course the museums, canal boat tours. My relatives there told me that when the Euro come out everything doubled in price. Count the change you are given as I found it usually short. Check out the fields of tulips and other flowers.
If you like to party then Amsterdam is the place for you

[Al_C]

Thank you for the links and the recreational ideas.  I read the links, which led to even more links, and now I am sorting through all of the internet pages I now have.  I now know much more about Amsterdam than I did a day ago, and I plan to use these links to learn even more. Thanks again for your help.

For those who have brought the scam risk to my attention, thank you for your concern, but I think the risk is well within acceptable limits.  The lady and I decided that we need to trust each other to a certain degree, otherwise we would never get past Step 1.  As I told the lady, anything that is worth doing comes with risks, a sort of subset of no pain, no gain.  I took care of myself in Russia just fine.  Surely I will do just as well in a Western democracy.

[Al_C]

OK, here goes.

Today is trip day.  My plane leaves New York in just about 8 hours, and my next post (hopefully with some photos) will be from Amsterdam.

[KenC]

Good luck, have fun and don't do anything I wouldn't do!
 

[Al_C]

I'm now in Amsterdam.  Been here for just about half a day now.

The city is an eclectic mix of the old and the new, mostly old, not surprising since the city has been around for hundreds of years.

I did a brief foot tour of the city yesterday and passed by one of its infamous "coffeeshops" (marijuana parlor for those unaware).  The smell of reefer as I got close enough to snap the picture almost knocked me off my feet.



Other than that, just waiting for my ladyto arrive, which will happen now in about 15 hours.

[KenC]

Fifteen hours?  Plenty of time for a , er, um cup of coffee or two! :hipdude:

Best of luck to you.
KenC

[UTRO]

Walk Past??!!!!?? Ummm, ah.... er.... ya' know Al_C,.... 'When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do'..... yup!! 

p.s.... avoid the Sailor Bar. I swear it was fine during the day, but that night!?!?
Well lets just say that there weren't any RW, AW, CW, DW or W of any kind!!

[Al_C]

I've heard that the sailor bar is a good place for hookers because the sailors, largely transient, go there looking to spend their money on some action.  Hopefully my lady and I will connect well enough that professionals of this type will be of no interest to me.

As for the coffeeshops, if somebody had told me 20 years ago that I would be going to a place where weed is legal and I would not be doing any, I would never have believed them.  But I quit that stuff many years ago and have no plans of doing any more of it.

It is 4:30 P.M.  Three hours until the big moment.  My next post will hopefully be that of a very happy man.

[Ronnie]

Wanna bet?  I had one who told me whatever it took to get me there, gladly accepted my wining and dining, and then told me at the end that she had no intention of leaving Russia and just wanted a man to go there to wine/dine her. (A gal from EM).

Another one turned out to be a hooker.  She was a replacement for me from a local agency when the Novo woman I wrote about above went south.  The agency just wanted to keep me happy so I would come back to them (I didn't).  Yeah, she showed me a really good time, but I didn't have to fly 10,000 miles to get a hooker.  There is an ample supply of them here in New York.

I repeat:  The scam risk can never be zero.

I wanted to respond to this... I didn't see it when it was first posted.

My advice was to go to a city of your choice, pay a local agency $15 or so for introductions, meet her at the office or a local cafe, if she's not for you move on.  Where's the scam?

The examples you gave are mixed.  The first was a scam in a sense because you wrote then went.  That's how you get scammed, not how you avoid it! 

The second example you gave about being introduced by a local agency to a gal who turned out to be a hooker:  Where's the scam?  You met somebody who wasn't for you. You didn't make a special trip, or send her money - I assume you moved on. 

If you can't recognize whether a situation has scam potential or not and decide every approach is full of risk so why not go pedal-to-the metal;" then you will continue to use the same judgement that brought you to Amsterdam.  Hookers, love to meet men in western cities.  Hope I'm wrong.  Either way, have fun but hold on to your wallet.

PS Good job giving up the weed.  There is hope.

[Al_C]

Now it is the morning of June 6, I am back in New York, and it is 5:30 A.M. and I am wide awake (jet lag is a bitch!).  So I thought it would be a good time for an update to the thread I started and largely ignored while I was there.

Why did I ignore it when I was there?  If you guessed because I was too busy having a great time with my lady, you guessed right!  Yes, everything worked beautifully, well beyond my expectations.  We did all the usual attractions, the Van Gough, the Rembrandt, the Holland America canal tour, and yes, even the Sex Museum.

The restaurants were mostly good to excellent.  Avoid the La Madonna (pretty bad) and definitely go for the Argentine Steak House (great atmosphere and excellent food).  They are a bit pricey though, so budget about $80 to $100 a night for the better ones.

The Red Light District was an interesting place.  The hookers hang out in front of doors with full length windows,  They are in a little room with a bed already set up and a curtain to draw when a client comes in.  You signal to her that you want some action.  She opens the door.  You pay your money.  She closes the curtain.  You get what you paid for.  Then you are on your way and she opens the curtain back up.  Since I was walking with a lady, they did not even make eye contact with me.

As for my lady, we didn't exactly get engaged, but I suppose that would be too much of a fast forward thing for one week.  We agreed to meet again and are working on it, possibly in her home city in Russia in about 6 months.  I used all my vacation time on this trip, but I can still get a case of work-itis and use my sick time.

By the way, the reason I have not used her name or image in any of these posts is out of respect for her privacy.  I signed up for Russian Women Discussion.  She did not.

[BillyB]

The hookers hang out in front of doors with full length windows,   Since I was walking with a lady, they did not even make eye contact with me.

That's courteous of them. In Uzbekistan, they'd come up to me and ask if I want to go into the strip bar regardless of the fact my fiancee is walking beside me.

Al, I'm sure your lady was observing your behavior and your eyes during your walk through the red light district and the Sex museum.   

[groovlstk]

Al, I'm glad to see you had a fruitful trip, you were due for some good luck. I hope things progress will with your girl!

[Al_C]

That's courteous of them. In Uzbekistan, they'd come up to me and ask if I want to go into the strip bar regardless of the fact my fiancee is walking beside me.

Al, I'm sure your lady was observing your behavior and your eyes during your walk through the red light district and the Sex museum.   

Actually, she was the one who wanted to go to the sex museum.  As for the "ladies", I told her explicitly that I was looking right at them and trying to make eye contact and that it was the "ladies" who were looking away.  She seemed to enjoy the whole game.

This was a city street at night (not the red light variety)



BTW do be careful about what you bring home with you.  Many things sold openly in Holland are illegal in other countries, so check it out before you take it home.  And I'm not talking about just the obvious one, cannabis.  For example, it is illegal to import plants, including flower bulbs that are offered for sale in Holland, into the U.S., out of concern for the U.S. grain crop.  Also for us Americans, we cannot import Absinthe, and I did notice Havana cigars, another no-no for us Americans.