Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Odds and Ends => Topic started by: Strider on October 19, 2017, 12:43:37 AM
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In the wake of all of the Harvey Weinstein scandal in the U.S., former Soviet gymnast, Tatiana Gutsu, has accused another former Soviet gymnast, Vitaly Scherbo, of rape 27 years ago in Stuttgart, Germany. She was 15 at the time, and the Soviet Union was collapsing:
http://nypost.com/2017/10/17/olympic-champion-gymnast-speaks-out-on-monster-rapist/
Scherbo has yet to respond, but others involved and Scherbo's mother have spoken out against the allegation:
http://eng.gymnovosti.com/tatiana-gutsus-teammates-and-scherbos-mother-commented-on-the-rape-allegations/
Both Scherbo and Gutsu now live and coach in the U.S. Scherbo can sue for libel, but the result would likely depend if he is now considered a "public figure". If so, he would need to prove that Gutsu's claim is false, AND she made it with "actual malice". (If she is found to be mistaken due to emotional or psychological problems he would lose.) If he is not a "public figure", then Gutsu would need to prove that she was raped in Germany 27 years ago.
Old rape/sexual assault claims are difficult to prove, but when scores of women come out of the woodwork with a similar story, like with Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, they are believed. Women also have been known to make up such stories to get attention. The use of "sexual harassment" by women in North America in the work place as a weapon has gotten completely out of hand. Women also use harassment charges against men whom they have dated, slept with, etc. in ways unimaginable in most other countries. Since this allegation is quite serious, rape, and occurred while she was still a teen, and in the context of the Soviet Olympic team, and as the Soviet Union itself was in collapse, I could understand why she never filed a police report in Germany or at home.
I am curious how this is playing out in the former Soviet states' media.
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The Democrats hopeful pairing for 2020!
Harvey Weinstein - Bill Cosby 2020!
With Hillary 3.2 - Senator Robert Menendez 2020 as viable stand-in! (Anthony Weiner will have to wait and see if Slick Willy is interested in getting 'worked' in the Oval office again so they can pair-up)
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Highlights the big problem lurking with all these sexual abuse/harassment/assault & rape allegations that they may take on a life off their own like the purges in Soviet times. Everyone starts at it and it becomes a tool by the unscrupulous to gain promotion, seek revenge, satisfy jealousy, or encourage those with mental health problems to throw around accusations, etc. If this state of throwing around allegations really takes of things could get real unpleasant out there. I mean look how many actresses got on board over the Harvey Weinstein situation seems like half the world's actresses are coming out that he fondled them. I can't imagine that he really fondled that many, some quite possibly but seems like to me there are some callous actresses out for free publicity and the wish to stick the knife in.
I'm sorry but if they did not come forward within a few years or have substantial evidence to prove it happened then they should just be told they have left it too long, exception of course in the case of child sex abuse cases. I mean who's to say it was not consentual at the time or the actress thought she would not get fame and fortune and had to do it but that was not the case, etc. On the case of this gymnast she was technically a kid but only just. I kind of wonder if it was a lot of messing around and only now 27 years later she is regretting it & jealous that the guy is doing better than her. It seems to me the more high profile the person (at least at the moment) the more the likelihood that someone comes forward with aleegations. As I have heard it in much of the FSU if you're and ordinary Joe and a woman comes forward with an allegation the Police out there usually have little time for it.
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Old rape/sexual assault claims are difficult to prove, but when scores of women come out of the woodwork with a similar story, like with Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, they are believed. Women also have been known to make up such stories to get attention. The use of "sexual harassment" by women in North America in the work place as a weapon has gotten completely out of hand.
You've never been a woman. Were you followed home by men in cars once you hit puberty? Catcalled on the street by men twice your size? Propositioned while waiting for a friend? Groped on subways/buses/the street? These are things every woman has put up with at some time in her life.
When more than one woman comes out with almost an identical story, and multiple women have the same story, yes, it has occurred. The only issue is whether or not some of the encounters were consensual. In Bill Cosby's case, he drugged the women, so there was no consent. Harvey Weinstein had his reputation for at least a decade. Even I'd read stories, though the depth of his depravity is astounding.
Gymnastics is known for its abuse of girls, in many respects. So, I don't doubt the story.
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Highlights the big problem lurking with all these sexual abuse/harassment/assault & rape allegations that they may take on a life off their own like the purges in Soviet times. Everyone starts at it and it becomes a tool by the unscrupulous to gain promotion, seek revenge, satisfy jealousy, or encourage those with mental health problems to throw around accusations, etc. If this state of throwing around allegations really takes of things could get real unpleasant out there. I mean look how many actresses got on board over the Harvey Weinstein situation seems like half the world's actresses are coming out that he fondled them. I can't imagine that he really fondled that many, some quite possibly but seems like to me there are some callous actresses out for free publicity and the wish to stick the knife in.
I'm sorry but if they did not come forward within a few years or have substantial evidence to prove it happened then they should just be told they have left it too long, exception of course in the case of child sex abuse cases. I mean who's to say it was not consentual at the time or the actress thought she would not get fame and fortune and had to do it but that was not the case, etc. On the case of this gymnast she was technically a kid but only just. I kind of wonder if it was a lot of messing around and only now 27 years later she is regretting it & jealous that the guy is doing better than her. It seems to me the more high profile the person (at least at the moment) the more the likelihood that someone comes forward with aleegations. As I have heard it in much of the FSU if you're and ordinary Joe and a woman comes forward with an allegation the Police out there usually have little time for it.
Women don't come forward because they think "it's only me". Plus many of these things are so commonplace, most women just shrug them off.
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Gymnastics is known for its abuse of girls, in many respects. So, I don't doubt the story.
So one girl just sat and watched while the other was raped ::) and thought 'hey rather her ass than mine!'
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Trench, Human nature is a strange thing..
Yesterday, I watched a guy lash out at a driver who had failed to stop at a Pedestrian crossing and physically attacked the driver and their car
No-one (including me) did anything - at first - I was with my elderly mother - and when I finally 'woke-up' - made sure she was sat down in customer services and went back out and started running towards the bloke, followed by store security, screaming, " that's enough", he ran to HIS car and locked himself in :D The driver of the first car drove off.. as did driver #2 ..
Everyone else was transfixed - then when the drama was over melted away
When the Nazi's were lining up Jews - you might ask, "Why didn't they run/ try to overcome their escorts"? ..
We are lucky we aren't ladies .. when you father daughters, you really 'get it'
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So one girl just sat and watched while the other was raped ::) and thought 'hey rather her ass than mine!'
That has occurred in the past.
This gymnast had nothing to gain from disclosing this story.
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I am sure that more details will come out. Perhaps Tatiana Gutsu will give an interview with more details of the proof that she has alluded to having. Perhaps she needed to see a doctor?
The response so far, is that Sherbo has said nothing to deny the accusation. He appears to be hiding behind his mother and probably "lawyering up" as we say. I am sure that he will get advised on U.S. libel law vs. the First Amendment rights and that he is probably a "public figure", and thus has a difficult case. From the responses, the roommate denies that anything happened in the room, but possibly the alleged attack occurred somewhere else. However, she does confirm that Sherbo was in their room, and won't deny that there was some physical kissing or touching. While in America a male gymnast might be suspected of being gay, I suspect that a Soviet male gymnast would have been more like an American male football player, i.e., full of entitlement and quite sexually aggressive. I can say that I would not want any young 15 year old girl in my family unsupervised around a 19 year old male jock.
The response from the former coach, confirms that she was a modest girl, but claims that the Soviet athletes were too tired from their training for sex. (The roommate said the same thing.) This is pure Soviet style denial and BS and suggests some failure on her part. Perhaps there was some pressure on Gutsu to have a relationship with Scherbo for PR purposes? It would have made such a good story for Soviet TV, and a typical Soviet lie.
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That has occurred in the past.
This gymnast had nothing to gain from disclosing this story.
Oh yeah? I'd never heard of her name before the story came out.
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http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2016/12/15/20-year-toll-368-gymnasts-allege-sexual-exploitation/95198724/
It happens to grown women, even more so to minors...gymnastics can be, and apparently is, a haven for these predatory morons. Doctors, coaches, etc...
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I've no doubt a lot of it happens in female gymnastics but they don't help themselves by prancing around in skimpy leotards, perhaps a set of trackies would be more appropriate.
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Here is a rather unflattering quote from Scherbo from 2010:
"I won’t be modest, I’ve seen plenty of women in my life. Playboy, in general. And I’m used to getting what I want from women. And you understand what I wanted."
Even his mother agreed, "he’s used to getting everything he wants.”
http://deadspin.com/in-2010-male-gymnast-accused-of-rape-said-im-used-to-1819719545
This is certainly a guy with a sense of entitlement. Gutsu hasn't yet given more details, but by naming the other two gymnasts, the picture I am getting is that they had something going on together and were en flagrante when the alleged assault occurred. For those from the West who are more modest, understand that housing was always a problem with the Communist bloc, and people there had lower ideas about privacy.
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Oh yeah? I'd never heard of her name before the story came out.
And how does her name being made public help her?
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Don't care what you say, just spell my name right .....
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Oh yeah? I'd never heard of her name before the story came out.
Don't care what you say, just spell my name right .....
Seems that Joan doesn't think that this woman should be talking about what the accused rapist did to her when she was 15. He'd rather see it whitewashed. I don't know why he would defend the guy and attempt to shame the female accuser. Has the accuser even denied it yet?
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
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I've no doubt a lot of it happens in female gymnastics but they don't help themselves by prancing around in skimpy leotards, perhaps a set of trackies would be more appropriate.
That's quite the odd mindset TC,
For a man who.prefers their romantic interests to.always wear a short skirt.
Do you feel.the same about ice skating competitors?
Ballerinas?
Only sweat pants to be unprovocative right?
I'm quite sure many women would agree if the pesky
Expectations of the competition judges, gallery, tv audience etc did not exist.
That is some bizarre thinking, you should probably dwell on where you are coming from with that a bit.
Before replying, keep in mind many of us have daughters, nieces, etc they may be involved in such sports at various levels.
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I've no doubt a lot of it happens in female gymnastics but they don't help themselves by prancing around in skimpy leotards, perhaps a set of trackies would be more appropriate.
Ah Trenchie!,
Nothing like trying to troll, for effect?....
The misogynist in your shines through...
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So from I can see in the Russian language media online, Tatiana Toropova never made it to a major Soviet gymnastic team, and never competed in the World Championships or Olympics. Presently, she coaches gymnastics for the national team of that well known gymnastic dynasty, Kyrgyzstan:
http://sputnik.by/radio/20171019/1031454286/gde-shcerbo-gucu-podaet-v-sud-toropova-i-shHaripov-ne-pri-delah.html
Thus, it looks like she never made it out of CIS, and won't rock the boat and damage her employment prospects there. They all trained too hard to even think about sex. How ridiculous is that idea?
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For those from the West who are more modest, understand that housing was always a problem with the Communist bloc, and people there had lower ideas about privacy.
They didn't have sex in front of others, if they were normal.
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Ah Trenchie!,
Nothing like trying to troll, for effect?....
The misogynist in your shines through...
Not at all Mobe, imagine if a guy started running around in a skimpy leotard like rhe girls do, with his c*ck & rear for all to see. It would be branded obscene. This guy no doubt saw it as reward for all the hours spent in the gym. The girl I think probably wanted the status that came with him but thought she could just stop at kissing. The roommate probably thought it none of her business what others got up to & focus on her gymnastis, she said as much. There may have been some jealousy on her part that she was not as good as gutsu however hard she trained and thought it might eliminate the competition who knows. What I do think is that perhaps this exemplifies FSU mentality to this day that you look out primarily for number one and if a way to get on is envisaged however dubious then it is all fair game.
I remember back to the Barcelona Olympics, I was around 14 at the time so near her age. I thought the Unified gymnastics team hot as all the girld were slim and kind of hot looking despite a kind of unusually slim build for their age, good genetic breeding apparen't there I think and evident why the FSU countries frequently do so well at gymnastics I think.
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So TC, when your future short skirted wife is groped or worse, how will you reconcile that agaisnt your statements in this thread.
I generally try to give you the benefitof the doubt,
But on this one you have a double standard that defies any logic ,
And come up with a *what if*
storyline to dismiss a rape allegation.
I have no idea what occured back then, nor does anyone else that wasn't there ,
But her story is certainly plausible in fact quite likely to have occured.
Her leotards would have so little to do with it in any case that it's ridiculous.
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Male swimmers, divers, weightlifters all wear clothing as or more revealing than gymnasts' leotards.
It's a stupid argument.
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Ah Trenchie!,
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The misogynist in your shines through...
So TC, when your future short skirted wife is groped or worse, how will you reconcile that agaisnt your statements in this thread.
Her leotards would have so little to do with it in any case that it's ridiculous.
It's a stupid argument.
I've no doubt a lot of it happens in female gymnastics but they don't help themselves by prancing around in skimpy leotards, perhaps a set of trackies would be more appropriate.
I said many months ago that Trenchcoat was a social misfit -- many others have at least agreed
that he is an idiot -- now that should be abundantly clear to all.
I would add a moronic idiot to my description.
Some have thought Trenchcoat has been treated harshly by some of us -- all I can see is that people have bent over backwards to be kind to him and the idiot's anti social ,inappropriate attitudes become clearer with his every post.
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I've no doubt a lot of it happens in female gymnastics but they don't help themselves by prancing around in skimpy leotards, perhaps a set of trackies would be more appropriate.
If clothing determines who gets raped, rapists should focus on beaches, preferably nudist beaches.
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If clothing determines who gets raped, rapists should focus on beaches, preferably nudist beaches.
Exactly! I mean, why waste time pulling off someone's clothes, especially if they might get blood on them! Doesn't matter how messy they get on a nudist beach - just dump them in the water afterwards, and all the blood will wash off. :cluebat:
Sheesh!
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Exactly! I mean, why waste time pulling off someone's clothes, especially if they might get blood on them! Doesn't matter how messy they get on a nudist beach - just dump them in the water afterwards, and all the blood will wash off. :cluebat:
Sheesh!
A medical doctor I spent time with in SPb told me that she and her former husband often had sex at the beach.
I asked if they were under a blanket, did she get sand in her crack, etc.
She said, "No, we were out in the water."
In which case dirty water up the woo-hoo should have been a concern also.
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Male swimmers, divers, weightlifters all wear clothing as or more revealing than gymnasts' leotards.
It's a stupid argument.
Oh Boe, just winding you up, you took the bait lovely ;D
I think I'm right on the girl gymnast roommate not giving a cr*p though aren't I, in that FSU culture is about look out for yourself & family, no.1 (in general) and it's up to others to fend for themselves, am I right?
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No, you are not right. I think it likely had more to do with the fact they were 15 years old.
FSU society is not about looking out for yourself/family. The meaning of the word дружба is very specific, and that type of friendship is more common in the FSU than it is in the West.
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Well, just looked back and there's been a bit of an update on this situation a while ago. Looks like a case of good girl gone bad, she was apparently drinking & smoking and got so intoxicated that she passed out meaning any account from her is unreliable at best.
Link: http://deadspin.com/russian-media-refuses-to-believe-tatiana-gutsu-when-she-1820084907
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Well, just looked back and there's been a bit of an update on this situation a while ago. Looks like a case of good girl gone bad, she was apparently drinking & smoking and got so intoxicated that she passed out meaning any account from her is unreliable at best.
Link: http://deadspin.com/russian-media-refuses-to-believe-tatiana-gutsu-when-she-1820084907
Trench, you NEVER cease to amaze me - what with that 'sense of humour' of yours that you ...
Did you ever stop to think that the 'good girl' may have gone off the rails as a direct result of her turmoil ?
Indeed, we might be seeing why you do so well on dates ....
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Trench, you NEVER cease to amaze me - what with that 'sense of humour' of yours that you ...
Did you ever stop to think that the 'good girl' may have gone off the rails as a direct result of her turmoil ?
Indeed, we might be seeing why you do so well on dates ....
She started drinking & smoking willingly so with him before the alleged rape happened and she was only 15 at the time.
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She started drinking & smoking willingly so with him before the alleged rape happened and she was only 15 at the time.
Am I reading you right ? Drinking and smoking means she was bad and 'asked for it' ?
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Am I reading you right ? Drinking and smoking means she was bad and 'asked for it' ?
Don't be silly. I'm saying if a girl drinks and smokes like that she deserves what she gets. If she had stayed sober none of that would have happened, if in fact anything at all happened. I don't really know why she came out with it, admitting to being in such an intoxicated state by her own choosing basically means her claims are meaningless. She's only served to embarrass herself.
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Don't be silly. I'm saying if a girl drinks and smokes like that she deserves what she gets. If she had stayed sober none of that would have happened, if in fact anything at all happened. I don't really know why she came out with it, admitting to being in such an intoxicated state by her own choosing basically means her claims are meaningless. She's only served to embarrass herself.
I wasn't 'being silly' and you response basically means that you think that 'no' from drunk lass can safely be ignored ?
You cannot have been paying attention to UK cases were professional footballers lost their careers for believing as you seen to. Their 'defence' being the lass was drunk and couldn't possibly know / remember ....
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I wasn't 'being silly' and you response basically means that you think that 'no' from drunk lass can safely be ignored ?
You cannot have been paying attention to UK cases were professional footballers lost their careers for believing as you seen to. Their 'defence' being the lass was drunk and couldn't possibly know / remember ....
Well let's us remember Chad Evans got convicted of this sort of stuff which was later overturned. Some footballers do get successfully convicted and while every case is different I think convictions where alcohol were involved could be potentially unsafe and open to challenge. I think in a lot of these cases the overbearing nature of feminism has been brought to bear who essentially demand every guy is automatically guilty if there is an accusation made & alcohol was involved. The defence of innocent until proven guilty gets thrown out the window and override by 'he's a guy and there was alcohol so we'll convict on our suspicion that he supplied alcohol to get he's way'. The assumption is automatic guilt in this country if a girl accuses and she was under influence in Russia it is thankfully not so.
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Well let's us remember Chad Evans got convicted of this sort of stuff which was later overturned. Some footballers do get successfully I think convictions where alcohol were involved could be potentially unsafe and open to challenge. I think in a lot of these cases the overbearing nature of feminism has been brought to bear who essentially demand every guy is automatically guilty if there is an accusation made & alcohol was involved. The assumption is automatic guilt in this country if a girl accuses and she was under influence in Russia it is thankfully not so.
1/ Do you know how Chad Evans got his conviction overturned ?
2/ You certainly don't know how the Russian legislative system works....
All I'm seeing is more misogynistic nonsense (
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Well, just looked back and there's been a bit of an update on this situation a while ago. Looks like a case of good girl gone bad, she was apparently drinking & smoking and got so intoxicated that she passed out meaning any account from her is unreliable at best.
Ah, right...you do realise that "passed out" means unconscious, don't you? Since when can an unconscious person possibly give consent to having sex? The "gentleman" involved was obviously really high-class if he had to resort to having sex with someone who was essentially a breathing corpse.
And, in any case, it doesn't matter if she DID give consent (which is utterly improbable, given the circumstances) - this is still statutory rape, at the very least.
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Ah, right...you do realise that "passed out" means unconscious, don't you? Since when can an unconscious person possibly give consent to having sex? The "gentleman" involved was obviously really high-class if he had to resort to having sex with someone who was essentially a breathing corpse.
And, in any case, it doesn't matter if she DID give consent (which is utterly improbable, given the circumstances) - this is still statutory rape, at the very least.
Yes but to alledge rape an account of it has to be taken from somewhere. Otherwise anyone could alledge they were raped while they were asleep. Her account is one of getting intoxicated, so much so that she passed out. When she came too she was not exactly in a sober state - if she did in fact fully come too. It hardly makes for a credible statement.
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Have you ever heard of DNA, Trench? Do you know anything about female anatomy?
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Ah, right...you do realise that "passed out" means unconscious, don't you? Since when can an unconscious person possibly give consent to having sex? The "gentleman" involved was obviously really high-class if he had to resort to having sex with someone who was essentially a breathing corpse.
And, in any case, it doesn't matter if she DID give consent (which is utterly improbable, given the circumstances) - this is still statutory rape, at the very least.
If this complaint proceeds and becomes a criminal matter, as the assault is alleged to have occurred in Germany, the German authorities will have jurisdiction.
The age of consent in Germany is 14 yoa.
Edit: Wikipedia expands on the age of consent statutes and states...(under Section 182(1), it is illegal to engage in sexual activity with a person under 18 "by taking advantage of an exploitative situation"...
Which intoxicated would include...
If it becomes a civil matter, generically speaking, if a wrong has been committed against a person, a civil action can be instituted where the wrongful act occurred (Germany) or in the jurisdiction where the respondent (defendant) resides (U.S.).
The U.S. has some pretty complicated state and federal regulations regarding presumption to jurisdiction in civil proceedings for acts committed outside their borders.
Either way, the complainant has a long hard road ahead of her if she wants resolution.
That being said, with the current sexual assault/harassment/inappropriate conduct complaints wave sweeping North America, now's the time to do it.
Brass
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Have you ever heard of DNA, Trench? Do you know anything about female anatomy?
Doubt there will be any DNA evidence now Boe unless she was able to keep something with his dried up fluid on it. Seeing as according to her she was naked from the waist down this seems unlikely.
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I wasn't referring to a specific case, but to the general comments in your post, which were not restricted to a particular case.
I don't believe Tatiana Gutsu is looking for anyone to be charged. She just wants his actions to be exposed.
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I wasn't referring to a specific case, but to the general comments in your post, which were not restricted to a particular case.
I don't believe Tatiana Gutsu is looking for anyone to be charged. She just wants his actions to be exposed.
You mean like most of those on the feminist 'me too' - instead of going out to the Police who handle this stuff they instead go to 'me too' to slander the guy and drag theit name though the mud. Nice that trial by accusation through media has replaced the police and the court process. Then again if it's at the behest of feminism I'm sure it all beyond questioning least to do so would be to get shouted down.
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You mean like most of those on the feminist 'me too' - instead of going out to the Police who handle this stuff they instead go to 'me too' to slander the guy and drag theit name though the mud. Nice that trial by accusation through media has replaced the police and the court process. Then again if it's at the behest of feminism I'm sure it all beyond questioning least to do so would be to get shouted down.
Trench,
Ever noticed that when one lady goes public, others may follow? I expect that likes of certain folk might suggest this isx'cashing in' rather than more likely realising they weren't alone.
Their stories are compared by experts in such claims and it can become clear if there is a pattern..
In the case of the gymnast, there is nothing to stop authorities in their respective home nations investigating .
Criminal cases in some FSU nations mean the if your case gets before the Prosecutor and it goes to trial.... You might as well plead guilty...
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Yes but to alledge rape an account of it has to be taken from somewhere. Otherwise anyone could alledge they were raped while they were asleep.
If you're female, and wake up to find semen leaking out of your vagina, then it's pretty bloody obvious that some man has had sex with you. Even if you had "only" been asleep, rather than unconscious, it's going to take a hell of a story to convince anyone that consent had been given.
Her account is one of getting intoxicated, so much so that she passed out. When she came too she was not exactly in a sober state - if she did in fact fully come too. It hardly makes for a credible statement.
Once again, you completely miss the point. YOU CANNOT CONSENT TO SEX IF YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS!!! :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: And who supplied the alcohol in the first place? She certainly didn't get it herself.
Therefore she was raped. END OF STORY.
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It appears the peanut gallery is indeed lacking in knowledge in these cases. DNA testing is but one method to clinically determine if rape/sex had occurred, which, in some of these cases, rape may also include assault and/or molestation.
Every time a woman have sex, or is penetrated, there will be vaginal bruising that a medical physician can and will detect, even if the perpetrator used a rubber or used a foreign object. Which is why it is so important for a woman to immediately get herself examined.
As for the avalanche of accusers stepping up with their allegations, if one or even two women are 'proven' to be credible with their accusation/s, all other women can accuse the same assailant/person if, despite the absence of any medical examination/proof, they can provide circumstantial evidence of their meeting/association/experience with the accused since the accused had already been 'proven', or admitted to, of nefarious behavior. i.e Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Clinton, Kevin Spacey, etc...
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Criminal cases in some FSU nations mean the if your case gets before the Prosecutor and it goes to trial.... You might as well plead guilty...
From what I hear in Ukraine/Russia few cases get far especially if it's seen that there was some sort of relationship rather than a stranger in assault type of situation. Here with there drink being involved and such time passed I can't see the any FSU authorities intervening at all. The Russian media for starters have dismissed her credibility and apparently that is reflective of Russian society.
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If you're female, and wake up to find semen leaking out of your vagina, then it's pretty bloody obvious that some man has had sex with you.
Yep it's pretty obvious. Did the man claim it was consensual? Is there evidence
that she was unconscious? Did the semen prove to be his? All those things have
to be answered in the right way for it to be cut and dried.
I don't have a horse in that decision. It either happened or it didn't.
Here is a recent story where it isn't cut and dried.
WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange Denies Rape in Detailed Account of Encounter
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/world/europe/assange-gives-detailed-account-of-rape-accusation.html
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Once again, you completely miss the point. YOU CANNOT CONSENT TO SEX IF YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS!!! :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: And who supplied the alcohol in the first place? She certainly didn't get it herself.
Therefore she was raped. END OF STORY.
Says who? She does. So on the basis off her say so she was raped end off.
It is you who are missing the point Kiwi - she needs evidence to prove her claim - she has none. The only other possible witness to the event, her team mate, a female actually backs up the guy not her. She meanwhile states that she was both drunk, and had been unconscious. She also failed to notify the German authorities of the alleged rape at the time and did nothing for the odd 27 years or so.
So the point you are missing is that you cannot state that she was raped until it is proven. As the saint goes innocent until proven guilty. This has not been even brought before any authorities let alone a court case. I really don't think it will unless something really damning comes to light since there is not a leg to stand on. When your only possible witness (assuming she was conscious) who is female will not back her up it pretty much falls flat on it face.
Being unconscious/asleep and claiming rape does not automatically make it so. It still needs to be proven as does if a girl accepts a drink and claims she was raped, it still needs to be proven, you can't just say a guy provided the drink hence he's motives in providing the drink are automatically deceitfull. I think you will find I'm right on this :)
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From what I hear in Ukraine/Russia few cases get far especially if it's seen that there was some sort of relationship rather than a stranger in assault type of situation. Here with there drink being involved and such time passed I can't see the any FSU authorities intervening at all. The Russian media for starters have dismissed her credibility and apparently that is reflective of Russian society.
Rape is not a common crime in Russia or Ukraine. Far less prevalent than, say, the UK.
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Rape is not a common crime in Russia or Ukraine. Far less prevalent than, say, the UK.
But is that because it is not worth reporting - as it used to be in the UK - from the women's perspective ?
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But is that because it is not worth reporting - as it used to be in the UK - from the women's perspective ?
Boe, I have the same question.
I have heard from several FSU folks, both male and female, that police and prosecutors often never do much when rape claims are reported.
Particularly those involving acquaintances.
i.e. You went with him to apartment . . . what did you expect was going to happen??
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Stranger rape is prosecuted more severely there than in most of the EU.
As for date rapes, probably still lower than in North America, where 1 in 5 women claim to have been date raped in college, and most of those rapes are never reported.
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Stranger rape is prosecuted more severely there than in most of the EU.
As for date rapes, probably still lower than in North America, where 1 in 5 women claim to have been date raped in college, and most of those rapes are never reported.
This makes sense to me. I find it annoying where women complain of being raped when they have willingly gone with a guy. The worst was the fairly recent change a few years back in the UK where 'marriage rape' became open to prosecution. I mean for heavens sake if the woman does not want sex with the man she is married too then she was at fault for marrying in the first place. In other words the woman married for something other than love thereby giving the guy a false impression. Similar to with relationships, if a girl gives the guy the impression she's in love with him but has some other agenda and is being phoney to him then she only has herself to blame for putting him under the wrong impression. I wish our take on rape was more like Russia, fair enough to protect women from all oncomers having a go I'lld say.
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You really have some pretty neanderthal views, Trench.
I will agree that if a woman has sex with a man and later regrets it, then rape has not occurred, and that in the current climate, such cases can, and at times are, prosecuted. However, if a woman changes her mind, then it doesn't matter if she went with the man, he does not have the right to force himself on her. I've known lots of women who were raped (yes, RAPED) after being with a man in a situation where they could not escape. Most were young and inexperienced. The thought of a man forcing himself on that woman never occurred to her. So should these women just be forced to accept a rape because they showed bad judgment?
A marriage where a man has to force himself on his wife isn't much of a marriage, and is basically an animal rutting. The man would be better to go to a prostitute, who at least for some time, will fake that she is enjoying the experience.
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Stranger rape is prosecuted more severely there than in most of the EU.
As for date rapes, probably still lower than in North America, where 1 in 5 women claim to have been date raped in college, and most of those rapes are never reported.
That 1 in 5 is not date rape but "nonconsensual or unwanted sexual contact".
http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/
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It's sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf
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It's sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf
Date rape involves forcible penetration, 1 in 5 don't report this.
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Says who? She does. So on the basis off her say so she was raped end off.
It is you who are missing the point Kiwi - she needs evidence to prove her claim - she has none. The only other possible witness to the event, her team mate, a female actually backs up the guy not her.
Of course there's no "evidence" after all this time - it's what guys rely on in so many cases. Scare the girl enough, and she won't report it or, if she does, it will be so long after the fact that there's nothing physical to find. And have you even wondered why her team mate won't back up her story? Of course you haven't - that would require thinking about something you've never experienced (and hopefully never will).
She meanwhile states that she was both drunk, and had been unconscious. She also failed to notify the German authorities of the alleged rape at the time and did nothing for the odd 27 years or so.
See above. Here you have a superstar in the sport using his legendary status to not only ensure that his victim will be too scared of the possible consequences to go to the authorities, but making sure that the only witness to whatever happened will also stay quiet.
So the point you are missing is that you cannot state that she was raped until it is proven. As the saint goes innocent until proven guilty. This has not been even brought before any authorities let alone a court case. I really don't think it will unless something really damning comes to light since there is not a leg to stand on. When your only possible witness (assuming she was conscious) who is female will not back her up it pretty much falls flat on it face.
Being unconscious/asleep and claiming rape does not automatically make it so. It still needs to be proven as does if a girl accepts a drink and claims she was raped, it still needs to be proven, you can't just say a guy provided the drink hence he's motives in providing the drink are automatically deceitfull. I think you will find I'm right on this :)
I'm not sure what's sadder - that you think that this behaviour can be excused, or that you actually believe the bullshit you're spouting. I've already tried to put this in words of one syllable just for you Trench, but obviously I've failed big time. Let me try again.
1. You cannot possibly give consent to sex if you are unconscious. How hard is that to figure out, even for you? There is a hell of a difference between long term lovers waking each other up with some sort of sexual act, and the scenario described in this case.
2. The girl was 15 at the time. While I accept that she wasn't legally under the German age of consent for sex, she was certainly under the legal drinking age. Therefore, even if it might be thought of as a small crime, supplying alcohol to a minor is still against the law. That it was done for the apparent purpose of rendering this girl either unconscious or simply incapable of resisting the advances of the man is sickening.
In any case, consent to have sex must surely be informed - and that counts out most drunk teenage girls, whether or not they've passed out by the time the guy takes off their clothes.
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Think this case in the news here today highlights why I think Russia has got it right not to get involved in alleged rape cases where there was a relationship.
Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42365521
The Police deliberately withheld evidence that completely exonerated this guy in order to try and get him convicted. Downright *ssholes if you ask me, they were essentially out to ruin this guy and in my mind as guilty as her. Goes to show Police here are still dodgy and not to be trusted, the Michael Stone case is another one that came to light recently and no doubt many others where they have only been interested in convicting whomever they desire. Just imagine if the girl had kept quiet and not spouted out all that stuff to contradict herself despite feeling that way the guy may have been convicted and gotten 12 years and life ruined just on the basis of her say so with him just being left to plead that it was 'consensual' and be disbelieved because he was a man. And FSW women wonder why some western men want to move to Russia, lol.
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But the reality is, the messages really don't 'prove' he was innocent.
i.e. Man and woman can have consensual sex 1,000 times, but woman can still truthfully claim rape if she doesn't want it the 1,001st time.
So this is a real tricky area where ongoing relationships are involved.
Comes down to a case of which one the judge/jury believes in he said/she said cases.
I know at university fraternities, it has been suggested that the guy keep a written signed statement of the gal agreeing to each of several steps leading up to penetration.
Should there be different prosecution and sentencing guidelines involved for unknown (to each other) persons; known persons but first time sex; continuing relationship sex?
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Also there are interesting but heartening cases where female friends of the claimed victim have come forward to provide testimony against their friend and for the man.
Just in news this week was case involving university football player (one of the groups seemingly involved in a lot of rape claims).
The gal's girlfriends came forward to tell of phone messages/texts the claimed victim sent them from bathroom telling how she was enjoying the encounter and going back out to continue.
And a few years back a case involved a university basketball player. Gal claimed rape, but her girlfriend told how the gal had talked with her later and laughed about how she let the guy perform oral on her and then pretended to be asleep when it was her turn to perform.
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Think she may have left messages a little while after the alleged rape lusting after him. Sounds like she was being a b*tch. In any case due to the lack of evidence of rape, these tapes & the with holding of them it fell flat. I think in this instance it really was a case that there was no rape.
I've heard of the university thing it's real ridiculous and just not a feasible solution, it's more like a joke it's so ridiculous. Thing is I don't see the path of trying to stop sexual assault as leading anywhere decent. I think we will all end up fearing each other and any idea of having a relationship and live miserable lives as a result. Meanwhile the sexual predators will continue to do what they've always done and prey on women it's in their genes. It's hey I think FSU has the only real solution, it doesn't solve it or try to. It helps to keep it from becoming an awkward issue and rightly goes after the weirdos who randomly prey on women in the street. It puts to the woman either be in a relationship with this man and all that may come with it or don't - your choice and none of anyone else's responsibility to be burdened with. I've loosely come across a relationship fallout in one of my previous jobs where I had to assist the girl in getting some moron of her back, I really didn't appreciate being used as a break up tool in her relationship. Way I saw it it was her choice to date the moron so she should have done due diligence and be careful who she thought worthy of going out with and consider the consequences of things if they go south. Having a ystem whereby there is none of that, the girl just runs off and dump someone else with sorting out her relationship fallout just means these girls become careless with whom they date. I sorted her problem out though of couse even though I could have done without it.
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Think this case in the news here today highlights why I think Russia has got it right not to get involved in alleged rape cases where there was a relationship.
Are you still trying to weasel your way out of all the crap you wrote earlier in this thread? In Tatiana Gutsu's case, there WAS no relationship, so how is this post relevant?
...And FSW women wonder why some western men want to move to Russia, lol.
What on earth has this case got to do with ANYONE wanting to move to Russia?