The Struggle For Ukraine

[krimster2]

whatever grassroots support that's being created for Ukraine, this is like trying to fill a desert with a drop of water...
a month from now there will be a major, major crisis in Ukraine
with 1/4 of all children in Ukraine going to bed hungry every night
there is no way to stem the tide of a tsunami this high
just get out of the way as best you can

if I were you, I'd take your friend to Mexico with her Ukrainian passport
and then go through the US checkpoint at El Paso, Texas and have accomodations reserved there ahead of time
she gets a 1 year visa automatically there now

that's a long ass flite from Warsaw to Mexico City
and both these aero puertos kinda suck...

[SteveInBoston]

Hi Krim

I always thought you were a bit odd.

[krimster2]

"I always thought you were a bit odd."

why do you think I'm odd?
just because I'm not divisible by 2?
you don't seem to be "too even" yourself!!
LOL!!

[tfcrew]

The difference is, in the US, dissenting opinions are tolerated. 

Less now than ever.
I think everybody needs to watch this video----



Comments---

It's weird to see Joe actually string a sentence together.
The problem is Joe Biden doesn't remember 1997.
Getting my news from a comedian, while the news shows have become a joke.

To me, the thing is... NATO is not all it's cracked up to be any more. There is no unified armed forces. Who would be in charge?

“In a second Trump term, I think he may well have withdrawn from NATO,” Bolton said. “And I think [Russian President Vladimir] Putin was waiting for that.”White House press secretary Jen Psaki on Friday responded to Bolton’s comments, saying they highlighted “another reason the American people are grateful — the majority of the American people — that President Biden has not taken a page out of his predecessor’s playbook as it relates to global engagement and global leadership, because certainly we could be in a different place.”“I mean, there’s no question that the strength and unity of NATO has been a powerful force in this moment,” Psaki added.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/bolton-says-trump-might-have-pulled-us-out-nato-if-he-had-been-reelected/

[BC]

Comments---To me, the thing is... NATO is not all it's cracked up to be any more. There is no unified armed forces. Who would be in charge?

shape.nato.int

[Boethius]

The real Nazis.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists

[Patagonie]

The real Nazis.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists

Russia has repeatedly tried to embarrass the world with the "Ukrainian nazis".
They are everywhere. In Europe we have some groups of them, you have some in the USA or also I suppose in Canada.
Does it make the whole country nazi? No
Russia often refers to Bandera who operated in the North West of Ukraine and collaborated with the Germans but most annoying was the following insurrection against the USSR, NKVD fought them for a decade, and the Ukrainian insurrection was capable to deploy sometime a regiment at a specific point.
The SS Galicie division is all time the Pantheon of the treachery in the eyes of the Russian Federation.
We had also a French SS division "Charlemagne", do you remember someone telling us that Frenchies are all nazis? No, some people are, however, but not all the nation. In France, we have far-right movements but the law punishes severely the ones who turn themselves nazis. I have seen this repeatedly last 30 years, the French justice is merciless with them.

I have not been a witness in 13 years in Ukraine during my 30 trips (31? 32? 33?) of something related (seen or heard) about Nazis in Ukraine.
I know a couple of Russian YouTubers who have gone to Ukraine and they express the same observation.

[ML]

Here's a personal update on the struggle for Ukraine.

T flew to Poland two weeks ago.  She took medical supplies from Sunflower of Peace, a local non profit.  A shout out to Delta - we purchased a basic fare but they allowed 3 oversized and over-weight checked-in luggage filled with combat gauge, compression bandages, combat tournequets and medical packs.  All without charge after just showing them a letter from Sunflower of Peace.

She has been travelling back and forth from the border and Warsaw, meeting other volunteers with supplies and getting other equipment requested by the militia, such as flak vests and thermal scopes.

She promised me she would stay in Poland and not enter Ukraine, which lasted a week.  I somewhat expected it - she is in Ukraine near the border to help with refugees and supplies.

T is from Mariupol.  Last year she bought a house there for her sister and two nephews.  They were the ones who let us know about the invasion, when our oldest nephew called because he heard explosions.  We lost contact with them on March 6.  They were without electricity, heat and running water.  A part of an artillery shell punched a hole above one of our nephews bedroom.  They have been sheltering in their unfinished basement, which is more of a winter cold storage room.  They had a small stock of food and drinking water - enough for a few days.  They tried to leave that day but turned around when they saw shelling up ahead on the road.

Last Saturday a friend contacted us.  They went by the house and saw my SIL's car.  They met my SIL and she and the nephews were ok.

On Tuesday they were able to evacuate from Mrpl.  They were a part of a civilian convoy that went to Zaporizhzhia.  Not a day too soon.  The convoy that left Wednesday was hit by an artillery strike, with several dead and many injurded.  T said 7 died.  On the following day the drama theater was bombed.  T's house is located two blocks away.

Today SIL and nephews are in central Ukraine.  They should meet up with T tomorrow evening.  T has arranged a place for them - one of the volunteers she works with has a summer house in a town near the Polish border.  Our oldest nephew is 19 and cannot leave Ukraine.  We are going to arrange a job for him either at a nearby factory or have him volunteer with transferring supplies.  Or maybe have him volunteer at a community kitchen to feed passing refugees.

I've read a few posts here.  Seems like some people are debating and some are repeating crap theories. 

If any want to do something, like donate or provide some other support, check your local charities.  Don't just donate blindly - I've come across some suspect organizations.  We picked the one we work with because we went to the charity founder's home and packed supplies into large duffle bags.  They are what they said they were.

Thanks for great post Steve !!

[fathertime]

 Can't blame Zelensky for trying although I don't think Russia's invasion would cause WWIII if no agreement is reached.   What would lead to a wider conflict is direct intervention from Western powers.... which doesn't seem to be in the cards as of yet.    It's understandable that Zelensky wants to try to negotiate from a position of strength, but the reality is Ukraine isn't in that position. 

 I'm not sure if Russian demands have changed since last time, but if not, a lot of lives can still be saved if Ukraine accepts their fate against a much larger, relentless, and merciless opponent.  Russian has enough tacit backing from larger nations such as China and India, and even if they didn't it still seems clear they are going forward regardless of the cost to them.   I'm not sure of what the real number of deaths are, but with Russia's attitude it will wind up in the millions before this ends.   

Zelensky: "I'm ready for negotiations" with Putin, but if they fail, it could mean "a third World War"

....Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Sunday he is ready to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin, but warned that if any negotiation attempts fail, it could mean the fight between the two countries would lead to "a third World War."

“I’m ready for negotiations with him. I was ready for the last two years. And I think that without negotiations, we cannot end this war,” Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria in an exclusive interview Sunday morning....

http://tinyurl.com/2p8kwcjm

Fathertime! 

[ML]

 I'm not sure if Russian demands have changed since last time, but if not, a lot of lives can still be saved if Ukraine accepts their fate against a much larger, relentless, and merciless opponent.

You seem to keep forgetting what this would mean for other smaller countries around the world.

There is even the higher level thinking that this is the beginning phase of war between democracies and autocracies around the globe.

Ukrainians says they are fighting for the rest of the world.
I believe it.

[Chelseaboy]

Yes Boris Johnson publicly said that if Putin is seen to be successful in his invasion of Ukraine it will be a disaster for the rest of the World.

[krimster2]

"Russia has repeatedly tried to embarrass the world with the "Ukrainian nazis". "

Russians have the great patriotic war in their collective sub-conscious


and the government is fully aware of how to use this collective memory to manipulate the Russian public’s actions and feelings.  You see it every freakin day on Russian TV!
way too much "nostalgie" borja moi!  they try to milk every little bit of it!

So Putin called Ukrainians “faschista!”

when a mosquito bites my wife’s arm, this is what she yells at it, while squashing it!
“FASCHISTA!”

it doesn’t mean, this little bug is wearing a Hitler-Jugund Swastika red and black and white arm band!
Nope!
Fashista! Is just a Russian pejorative term, like the “N” word, only MUCH worse…
it’s probably the nastiest word you can legally say on Russian TV
because MAT, is strictly VERBOTEN on Russki TV!!

you can’t say "d’vai pizda" on TV for example!
but at Rasputin's Moscva I heard this being said ALL THE TIME (LOL!!!)
starry starry den

L'exile du Russki

[2tallbill]

NOTE: Just because I post some articles in this thread should not
imply that I agree with them or believe that they should be considered
to be unbiased or reliable. Everyone should always question everything
and get information from several different sources before making up their
minds.

This is a collection of some of the more sensational stories circulating 
around in cyberspace.


Putin loses ANOTHER top commander
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10632485/Putin-loses-commander-Black-Sea-Fleet-captain-51-shot-dead-near-Mariupol.html


Russia ridicules idea that cosmonauts wore yellow in support of Ukraine
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-ridicules-idea-cosmonauts-wore-151014565.html


Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine because he is terrified of a pro-democracy revolution in Moscow says Boris Johnson
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/putin-panicking-over-revolution-moscow-26508643


Col.-Gen. Sergei Beseda, head of the intelligence agency’s Fifth Service under house
arrest
http://www.wsj.com/articles/reported-detention-of-russian-spy-boss-shows-tension-over-stalled-ukraine-invasion-u-s-officials-say-11647687601


Colonel-General Sergei Beseda, head of the FSB’s foreign intelligence branch,
the Fifth Service, was arrested along with his deputy, Anatoly Bolyukh. If they
have been detained, Western security officials said it means President Vladimir
Putin is “seriously concerned” about faulty intelligence on Ukraine.
http://groundreport.in/who-is-spy-chief-col-gen-sergei-beseda-arrested-in-ukraine/


Thousands of resident illegally taken across border, says Mariupol council, as reports emerge its art school has been bombed while 400 were sheltering inside
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-crisis-claims-mariupol-women-and-children-forcibly-sent-to-russia

Ukraine claims more Wagner mercenaries trying to assassinate Zelensky
http://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-701782


Pentagon’s Work With Ukraine’s Biological Facilities Becomes Flashpoint in Russia’s Information War
http://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagons-work-with-ukraines-biological-facilities-becomes-flashpoint-in-russias-information-war-11647768601


India’s Dependence on Russian Weapons Tethers Modi to Putin
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/india-s-dependence-on-russian-weapons-tethers-modi-to-putin/ar-AAVhIHA


Inside the secret transfer of military equipment to Ukrainian soldiers
http://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-18/secret-transfer-military-equipment-ukrainian-soldiers-5390190.html

[BillyB]

I have not been a witness in 13 years in Ukraine during my 30 trips (31? 32? 33?) of something related (seen or heard) about Nazis in Ukraine.
I know a couple of Russian YouTubers who have gone to Ukraine and they express the same observation.

I'm a minority and I haven't experienced any hostility in my dozen trips to Ukraine. But that doesn't mean Russia is lying about Nazis in Ukraine that our current government is supporting.

Here is a letter 40 Democrats signed asking the Trump administration to label the Ukrainian Azov Battalion a terrorist organization since they have white supremacists neo nazis in its ranks and are recruiting Americans. Now our government wants to give the Azov Battalion weapons to kill Russians and our media tells us neo nazis in Ukraine doesn't exist. All people in in the world should be outraged if we are supporting people who worship Hitler.

http://web.archive.org/web/20200130033931/http://maxrose.house.gov/uploadedfiles/2019.10.16_rose_fto_letter_to_state.pdf

[fathertime]

You seem to keep forgetting what this would mean for other smaller countries around the world.

There is even the higher level thinking that this is the beginning phase of war between democracies and autocracies around the globe.

Ukrainians says they are fighting for the rest of the world.
I believe it.

It is something to consider. 
I don't think this invasion will lead to other similar invasions.  The consequences are pretty severe and it seems Ukraine was a pretty unique situation.   

Smaller like minded countries can also band together and form their own little versions of NATO....leaving out the biggest powers.   

Fathertime! 

[ML]

Inside the secret transfer of military equipment to Ukrainian soldiers
http://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-18/secret-transfer-military-equipment-ukrainian-soldiers-5390190.html

This is great !

But WTF did Stars and Stripes publish it ????????

[Boethius]

Russia has repeatedly tried to embarrass the world with the "Ukrainian nazis".
They are everywhere. In Europe we have some groups of them, you have some in the USA or also I suppose in Canada.
Does it make the whole country nazi? No
Russia often refers to Bandera who operated in the North West of Ukraine and collaborated with the Germans but most annoying was the following insurrection against the USSR, NKVD fought them for a decade, and the Ukrainian insurrection was capable to deploy sometime a regiment at a specific point.
The SS Galicie division is all time the Pantheon of the treachery in the eyes of the Russian Federation.
We had also a French SS division "Charlemagne", do you remember someone telling us that Frenchies are all nazis? No, some people are, however, but not all the nation. In France, we have far-right movements but the law punishes severely the ones who turn themselves nazis. I have seen this repeatedly last 30 years, the French justice is merciless with them.

I have not been a witness in 13 years in Ukraine during my 30 trips (31? 32? 33?) of something related (seen or heard) about Nazis in Ukraine.
I know a couple of Russian YouTubers who have gone to Ukraine and they express the same observation.

I understand why Ukrainians wanted to honour Bandera, but I think it was wrong to do so.  He belongs to a past that was hyper nationalistic.  Because this was suppressed in Ukraine, it would bound to come out in unhealthy ways on the collapse of the USSR. 

The idea that a country with a Jewish president - the only one outside Israel - is a fascist state is ludicrous. 

The hallmarks of fascism -
Extreme nationalism
Disdain for human rights.
Scapegoating enemies as a unifying cause.
Tightly controlled media.
Obsessive security in a surveillance state.
Using religion to bolster political power.
Pampering economic and corporate elites at the expense of have-nots.
Suppressing organized labour.
Excessive police powers and jailing as a political tool.
Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Fraudulent elections.

Where do all of the above exist?

[Bee Farmer]

The idea that a country with a Jewish president - the only one outside Israel - is a fascist state is ludicrous. 

No, it's not ludicrous. 
The idea that a country with a Jewish president would be a Nazi state is ludicrous.  Nazism and fascism are not the same thing.

Nazism is a political ideology.
Fascism is an economic system.

While Nazis were fascists, not all fascists are Nazis.  Almost all countries of the world are fascist countries.

The hallmarks of fascism -
Extreme nationalism
Disdain for human rights.
Scapegoating enemies as a unifying cause.
Tightly controlled media.
Obsessive security in a surveillance state.
Using religion to bolster political power.
Pampering economic and corporate elites at the expense of have-nots.
Suppressing organized labour.
Excessive police powers and jailing as a political tool.
Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Fraudulent elections.

Those are not hallmarks of fascism.  They are all 100% totally unrelated to fascism.

Fascism is an economic system of private ownership of goods, services, and the means of producing them - with government regulation over such.  That's all fascism is, nothing more and nothing less.  Fascism is also sometimes called crony capitalism.

What you have described are hallmarks of authoritarian regimes.  They have nothing to do with the economic system in that country.  (All those hallmarks are present in North Korea, and it is socialist, not fascist.)

Where do all of the above exist?

The US comes to mind for many of them.

[Patagonie]

Let's come back to the dictionnary:   
What is a fascist? Fascism is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism. 
What is a Nazi? Nazis don’t need much of an introduction: they were the German government and military that slaughtered over six million Jews and others during World War II.

✅ Nazism is  described as one type of fascism. Both fascism and Nazism reject democracy and liberalism as ideologies, and instead embrace the concept of a nationalist state.

[ML]

Arguing over definitions is not useful.

Best to just describe a nation or government using adjectives and verbs rather than nouns.

[krimster2]

http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/108311
Russian aggression in Crimea reveals interesting aspects of using criminal groups in politics


how about enabling a corrupt real estate developer use fake “special electors” to make him President?

Q: Was this Crimea in 2014 or USA on Jan 6 2021?

history may not repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme a lot, maybe it's some kinda rap music
ras, vaz avtobus

Putin, may have overplayed his hand
but it ain't over til the fat lady sings
now the GRU will pull a "krolich" out of it's kapka
sealing the doom of the FSB apparchatki and Ukrainians

Putin only has two more defense zones in Southern Ukraine to destroy (like he did to Mauripol) to surround and cut-off Odessa and split Ukraine in two cutting it off from direct contact with the "chorny moira"  and one of these zones his forces are already on the outskirts

it appears Bela Russians are on the march tomorrow...
if he takes those two cities he's half way won the war

having this multi-front approach was also a problem when the germans attacked the Soviet Union
the Germans had 3 fronts:
Kyiv, Moscow and Leningrad

Putin should have used all his forces in the south, to split Ukraine first in a single unified front, then shoot straight up the Dniper to Kyiv....
Duh Pootin!

it looks like Putin IS now focusing his forces to the South, he's also getting a lot of fresh soldiers from Dagestan and maybe Belarus will join in this week

one of those big thermobaric bombs just went off in Kyiv, lit up the whole city

[Patagonie]

This is the menu scheddule for each every Ukrainian city encircled.
Read attentively.
http://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-edf7240a9d990e7e3e32f82ca351dede

[Trenchcoat]

As thought it looks like the west giving Ukraine weapons has only served to prolong this conflict with Ukraine being able to stall the Russian advance by knocking out many of their tanks. I wonder if it may have all been less bloody had we not given the weapons even though it may have meant Ukrainian defeat. Well I'm guessing at least Russia won't be invading another country in a hurry is the upside since it now seems bogged down in Ukraine.

If I were Russia I would get Belarusian or otherwise troops down from Belarus all along the border with Poland, Romania, etc. Cut off supplies to the whole of Ukraine, it as quite a long border but I'm guessing a lot of disruption is possible. I'm surprised they haven't gone south there already.

As it is I'm not sure where this is all going. The Russians seem to want to destroy Ukrainian cities one by one, that could take some time to achieve if it indeed does. It's also pretty horrific for the populace that have had this forced upon them by Putin. Looks like it's all going to be down to who cracks first, Russia or Ukraine and in what way, militarily, economically, etc.

[tfcrew]

Arguing over definitions is not useful.

Best to just describe a nation or government using adjectives and verbs rather than nouns.

                                                     
                                                           

[Trenchcoat]

A lot of talk in the media about the Russian Invasion having stalled that and reckoning that Russia might only have 2-3 weeks before it exhausts its efforts in terms of ammo, tanks, men, etc.

Russian forces definitely been struggling to make headway with taking Kyiv and Mariupol still holding out despite Russia choking it and throwing everything they've got at it. Few advancements elsewhere for Russia also.

Some talk that Putin may be considering using chemical weapons, Hyperthermal missiles, etc to try and break the stalemate si his forces can advance.

So where does this all end? It's a difficult one I think, Putin won't want to lose, whether there will be a coup against him who knows. If not will he settle for a face saving Peace Treaty? who knows?

I think the odds of a Russian victory look more remote though it's not easy to ascertain how Ukraine is holding up under all of this or whether they might break all of a sudden. Clearly it looks like the west's supply of anti tank weapons have managed to stop the Russians in their tracks and stopped a complete swift collapse of Ukraine that I think would have happened anyway.

I think the only certainly is that Ukraine can only win this war to a certain point as end of the day Russia has many devastating long range missiles and chemicay weapons at their disposal. So the best Ukraine can probably hope is to push back and destroy a lit of Putin's forces then try and get a Peace Treaty. They can push into Russia as otherwise they'll be at greater risk of Russia retaliating in a bad way. So all depends on whether we see a Peace Treaty cone forth maybe in the next 2-3 weeks or so depending on what happens I guess.