My first experience through EM

[Surfer]

Many of the women you contact will judge you. This is normal human behavior. Some will see that your skin is too dark. Some won't like the culture they believe you grew up in. Some will not date you because they don't want family and friends to talk bad things behind their back. Some women will simply think you're ugly.

I'm half Vietnamese. Some FSU women posters said my wife is the most beautiful of all women that they've seen marry foreigners. GQBlues is Filipino and he married a beautiful tall blond Russian who is now working a high level position in a company and making over $100,000 a year. My wife is currently in college to be a medical professional and she's on the path to someday make over $100,000 a year. Some people think it costs a lot of money to marry an FSU woman. It can be an investment.

We are exceptions, not the rule. Guys from Asia aren't as successful as Caucasians when pursing FSU women. Success can happen but the truth remains and you have an uphill battle to catch an FSU woman compared to a guy with Western European genes. You have to be better than other men. You need to sharpen your skills at finding and identifying quality women who have a genuine interest in you. If you continue to visit women who will only consider marrying you after realizing their dream guy will never show up, you'll be disappointed.

If you write 10 women, it's highly unlikely you will find a good match. Write a thousand women to increase your odds. One lady may be thrilled you wrote her and excited to hear your voice.

Thanks BillyB for your valuable suggestions and I'm glad to know that you understand the situation much better considering that you have a similar background if not the same. I am very well aware of the stereotypes and the fact that I will be judged for it by some FSU women. In fact, there had already been one instance in the past where a Ukrainian girl who was not at all aware of India, she was fed some stereotypes by her friends who tried to scare her away. Fortunately, she discussed with me and it took me a while to help her understand how I was different. She eventually started picking the good things from the culture and got genuinely interested as well.

Your point about the extra work I need to put in because I am not European is very true and I realized that with some experience as well. I'll do it

[John Gaunt]

It's quite simple. Just because most people in a country follow a certain tradition, it does not mean that all do.

Isn’t that what I wrote in my post. Perhaps I should write in plain English. My apologies.

You come across as the type of person who generalizes everyone from a country to be the same type instead of understanding that not all are the same. It's rather you who seems quite triggered by the fact that another person was born in India.

Let’s just ignore that it’s you who seems a tad sensitive here.

Anyway, I looked up your post history on this Forum and this specific post explains everything:

Ah, the makings of another stalker. I do seem to attract the delinquents.

"John Gaunt" is a man who is married to an FSUW for 7 years, signs up on a Forum specifically to troll members (especially Trench) sounds like as immature and ridiculous as it can get. Seems like this is how you make yourself feel better by trolling people on Internet. Wonder what other trolling hobbies you have on Internet. Quite sad hobbies for a grown up man.

My posting history should signpost the extent of my internet habits, and yes, I am married to a FSUW, happily married, I should say. Not that I’m bragging about it. 

[Surfer]

Ah, the makings of another stalker. I do seem to attract the delinquents.

Says who? The person who looked up my posting history to find out where I was from? You are not so witty as you think.

[Boethius]

So you communicated with a woman online for five weeks, and then expected magic, a level of communication that for some, takes a lifetime?

I think you expected too much.  It sounds to me not that she was not interested, but just that she wanted the relationship to develop organically, as it would with a local man.  She has a job, a home, a car.  She is still (relatively) young.  It sounds as if she is not desperate to find a man.  She probably wanted to get to know you in a natural way, at a pace she is comfortable with.

I moved in with my husband within a week of meeting him.  My sister dated her husband for about three months before he even got a kiss.  It may be that her way of communicating was not for you, but it doesn't seem to me, from what I am reading, that she rejected you.

Societies help make us introverts or extroverts.  My husband is by nature, an extrovert.  His society made him an introvert because it was dangerous to be too friendly, or too open.  He is still, after almost 30 years in the West, closed about his personal life and his children, though he will joke around and talk to strangers.  He also hates crowded places.  It's not because of introversion.  He isn't particularly fond of cities, either.  He loves being surrounded by nature.

I assume the 3 people bothered her because you are visibly foreign, plus of a different race and, therefore, of more interest to strangers than some random Russian guy with whom she may walk with in a park. 

I think you gave up too easily.  To build a relationship with depth takes time.  You're 30 years old.  What's your big hurry? (BTW, I think that is what John Gaunt was getting at, and why he suggested an arranged marriage).

[BillyB]

She probably wanted to get to know you in a natural way, at a pace she is comfortable with.

Not much natural about international dating. Less face to face time and people need to figure out each other faster than normal. If I couldn't figure out if I wanted to be with my wife by the end of my first visit to her, she would've thought I wasn't interested in her and moved on.

Surfer had doubts. It's okay to have doubts. It's not okay to proceed towards marriage with a woman if doubts exist. Surfer probably stayed with the girl longer than he should've. Finding love doesn't have to be this tough. I've seen girls thrilled to meet me. Happy girls exist and that's what men should be looking for in a woman. If they settle for less, they will get less.

As far as a woman's pace goes, if Surfer was Brad Pitt in his prime, she would be all into him in the first few minutes of meeting him and would think twice about insulting him over something she disagrees with because she doesn't want to lose him. She doesn't care much if she lost Surfer. Most guys in this endeavor aren't as good looking or rich as Brad Pitt but a good woman would respect a man over Brad Pitt since he made the effort to visit her.

Surfer and the lady can keep writing each other as friends and keep each other as backup plans if the right one doesn't come along after a few more years of searching. If they can't find what they want, they can settle for less later. No need to rush and settle for less now.

[Surfer]

I think you expected too much.  It sounds to me not that she was not interested, but just that she wanted the relationship to develop organically, as it would with a local man.  She has a job, a home, a car.  She is still (relatively) young.  It sounds as if she is not desperate to find a man.  She probably wanted to get to know you in a natural way, at a pace she is comfortable with.

No, I already mentioned above. I told her that let's give it time too, was going at her pace. She wanted more communication and so did I, to get to know each other more. But in reality, she was not able to communicate at all on our last meeting.

I moved in with my husband after a week of knowing him.  My sister dated her husband for about three months before he even got a kiss.  It may be that her way of communicating was not for you, but it doesn't seem to me, from what I am reading, that she rejected you.

I know that she was interested too although her communication was not giving the same signal on the last day which created confusion for me. I was still in the phase of getting to know her, so it's normal to question such behaviors.

Societies help make us introverts or extroverts.  My husband is by nature, an extrovert.  His society made him an introvert because it was dangerous to be too friendly, or too open.  He is still, after almost 30 years in the West, closed about his personal life and his children, though he will joke around and talk to strangers.  He also hates crowded places.  It's not because of introversion.  He isn't particularly fond of cities, either.  He loves being surrounded by nature.

I already mentioned that I am an introvert too and I had absolutely no problem with her being an introvert. Tried my best to make her comfortable considering her nature.

I assume the 3 people bothered her because you are visibly foreign, plus of a different race and, therefore, of more interest to strangers than some random Russian guy with whom she may walk with in a park. 

No. There were days when she was comfortable and could talk to me as much as she wanted even with people around. So, it was more about her. On some days she could and on other days she could not. In fact, on the Sparrow Hills on a weekend, when the place is so busy, she even surprised me with how comfortable she was with so many people.

I think you gave up too easily.  To build a relationship with depth takes time.

I clearly mentioned that till the last moment I was requesting this girl to meet up once again before I left. She just couldn't get over the fact that I asked her about why she was not talking to me at all in the park on our previous visit. It's normal to ask someone when they are not talking to you.

She was definitely being a difficult person and not cooperative.

You're 30 years old.  What's your big hurry? (BTW, I think that is what John Gaunt was getting at, and why he suggested an arranged marriage).

There was no hurry for marriage here from my side. Telling a girl that you like her and like spending time with her is not equivalent of a marriage proposal to someone.

However, per my understanding, if you want to find the right person for you, then the person you are meeting at present needs to show clear signals of interest in communication. After all this is the "getting to know each other" phase. If the person is so slow at it, then it's maybe their way. I was not expecting her to say out loud how much she likes me. But expecting communication from her was normal.

To be honest, I had never seen such a puzzling woman before. I completely understand that I could have been more patient with her. When I realized that despite her lack of communication, she still wants to meet again, I said Yes. But she was too stubborn to let go of the fact that I asked her about her behavior the previous day which was confusing me.

So, at the end, it was her decision to not meet before I went.

[Surfer]

Not much natural about international dating. Less face to face time and people need to figure out each other faster than normal. If I couldn't figure out if I wanted to be with my wife by the end of my first visit to her, she would've thought I wasn't interested in her and moved on.

Surfer had doubts. It's okay to have doubts. It's not okay to proceed towards marriage with a woman if doubts exist. Surfer probably stayed with the girl longer than he should've. Finding love doesn't have to be this tough. I've seen girls thrilled to meet me. Happy girls exist and that's what men should be looking for in a woman. If they settle for less, they will get less.

As far as a woman's pace goes, if Surfer was Brad Pitt in his prime, she would be all into him in the first few minutes of meeting him and would think twice about insulting him over something she disagrees with because she doesn't want to lose him. She doesn't care much if she lost Surfer. Most guys in this endeavor aren't as good looking or rich as Brad Pitt but a good woman would respect a man over Brad Pitt since he made the effort to visit her.

Surfer and the lady can keep writing each other as friends and keep each other as backup plans if the right one doesn't come along after a few more years of searching. If they can't find what they want, they can settle for less later. No need to rush and settle for less now.

Thank you BillyB, you seem to completely understand the point here.  During the "getting to know each other" phase, both the guy and the girl put in efforts for communication and things to build up. Just as I was patient and forgiving with her, similarly she could have also been. Just as I got over quickly about the cruise incident, similarly she could have got over quickly if she didn't like what I said on the last day about the communication part. This was followed by me requesting her to meet before going so many times. That was extremely stubborn on her part and lack of understanding.

Girls who are very interested in a man would not be so stuck up with few things said if the other guy is putting in so much effort to clarify.

[John Gaunt]

Says who? The person who looked up my posting history to find out where I was from? You are not so witty as you think.

Actually, your writing style was a giveaway and I vaguely recalled that you had posted something about yourself a while ago.
Still not answering my question? Something to hide. All those voluptuous Indian girls not good enough for you? Oh, it’s those white wimmin you are interested in. You remind me of a certain somebody from Trinidad. Chip and shoulder comes to mind. 

[Boethius]

Girls who are very interested in a man would not be so stuck up with few things said if the other guy is putting in so much effort to clarify.

This suggests to me you didn’t clarify. Plus your statement suggests you don’t have much experience with women. I suspect the mismatch was partly due to different personality types, and largely due to bad communication. Although the woman spoke English, she is no doubt translating everything back into Russian. What you assumed you said, and what she heard, were likely at odds.

[Surfer]

This suggests to me you didn’t clarify. Plus your statement suggests you don’t have much experience with women. I suspect the mismatch was partly due to different personality types, and largely due to bad communication. Although the woman spoke English, she is no doubt translating everything back into Russian. What you assumed you said, and what she heard, were likely at odds.

I mentioned that I clarified everything as clear as possible. She was not willing to listen at all. Asked some of my other female friends (including FSU), according to them the girl was being stubborn.

Of course, you can have your own opinion on this matter Thanks.

[Boethius]

It's not whether you clarified it.  It is what she heard.  I have had this occur when speaking with FSU individuals in English, even my husband in earlier years.  Something you believe is innocuous for them is some sort of trigger.

Oh, your friends are telling you what you have assumed.  Quelle surprise!

I'm not trying to be difficult here, just suggesting that miscommunication is common in cross cultural relationships, and to assume that a behaviour is because a woman is being unreasonable is sometimes presumptuous.  Understanding what really happened will help you in the future.

[Surfer]

It's not whether you clarified it.  It is what she heard.  I have had this occur when speaking with FSU individuals in English, even my husband in earlier years.  Something you believe is innocuous for them is some sort of trigger.

Oh, your friends are telling you what you have assumed.  Quelle surprise!

I'm not trying to be difficult here, just suggesting that miscommunication is common in cross cultural relationships, and to assume that a behaviour is because a woman is being unreasonable is sometimes presumptuous.  Understanding what really happened will help you in the future.

I understand your point of view. Even while communicating with her, I tried my best to understand her point of view. I knew what upset her and she even confirmed that I understood it correct.

Of course, we all learn from experiences. I have close to an advanced level of knowledge in Russian and I understand very well what you are referring to as the misinterpretation of words. To be honest, nothing really happened in this case that was as bad as a deal breaker. We couldn't meet each other on the last day due to all this, that's sad.

We live and learn. I'll learn from this experience. I already understood few points. I am sure she would have her own learning experiences.

It's all good. Thanks.

[John Gaunt]

I understand your point of view. Even while communicating with her, I tried my best to understand her point of view. I knew what upset her and she even confirmed that I understood it correct.

Of course, we all learn from experiences. I have close to an advanced level of knowledge in Russian and I understand very well what you are referring to as the misinterpretation of words. To be honest, nothing really happened in this case that was as bad as a deal breaker. We couldn't meet each other on the last day due to all this, that's sad.

We live and learn. I'll learn from this experience. I already understood few points. I am sure she would have her own learning experiences.

It's all good. Thanks.

For someone with an ‘advanced level of knowledge in Russian’ (whatever that means, perhaps you will clarify) one would have thought you would be able to avoid simple miscues in your communication with this lady.
I detect a level of arrogance in your version of events. It would be very interesting to hear her views on this whole episode. It would, I’m sure, be rather enlightening and entertaining.

[Belvis]

Interesting thread. BillyB and Boethius have already said what I could say too.
From what was told by Surfer I see the situation as the woman were trying to overcome her stereotypes about Surfer, his origin to be more correct. She was not in Surfer for sure, but decided to give him a chance to change her attitude.
 I believe the relations were doomed from the start and Surfer could come to the same conclusion if he would succeded to shift  the online communication to more deep level.
  Concerning his relations with FSU women. His advantage:  he made a trip to see a woman, so he posses some strength for adventures. His week point (for this particular issue): sensitivity and low level of self-irony.
Frankly speaking I don't understand why he knows Russian at advanced level and has found English speaking girl to build relationship.  By this way he limits himself to small  pool of really nice women, and where he will collide with fierce competition.

[msmob]

Hmm,
I'm now wondering

Surfer ... Is English your SECOND language ... are you ethnically Russian ?

I only ask as a 'give away' was you said, "Thanks for all advises"

[cameraguymn]

Good luck Surfer. You sound like a decent human being. And that woman would have been totally boring and cold in the long run.

Remember - good guys don't finish well.  I hope you'll find someone compatible with you but you have a tough road ahead with all that has been mentioned. The narrative of Russian woman is mostly true - they want a better employed version of Russian men without the crazy drinking and womanizing but a strong forceful person - so timid, politeness to a fault and waiting for them to make the first move is not going to get you much.

[John Gaunt]

Hmm,
I'm now wondering

Surfer ... Is English your SECOND language ... are you ethnically Russian ?

I only ask as a 'give away' was you said, "Thanks for all advises"

Msmob

He’s an Indian bloke.

[BillyB]

good guys don't finish well.

There's a belief women are attracted to bad boys. I don't buy into that. Nice guys, with balls, can finish well.

Bad boys give the impression they are great protectors since they are willing to fight to defend what is theirs. Bad boys hit on many women. They have a LOT of experience communicating with women and the ability to communicate is attractive to the ladies. Nice guys may hit on one woman every year. They have little experience and sometimes get nervous around women which is considered strange behavior and isn't appealing. After being rejected, the nice guy then has less confidence when approaching the next girl. It's downhill from there.

So if you're a nice guy and want to finish well, communicate with lots of women. Date lots of women. You will gain experience and confidence. In the end, like the bad boys, you will have women to choose from and can choose the best out of the lot.

[msmob]

Msmob

He’s an Indian bloke.

Call me ' flash '  !

Sorry, Surfer

[GQBlues]

The woman, IMO, was simply *curious* about the OP. What the US termed as *jungle fever*. She had no idea how to react and deal with it when it came time to be *live* with our hero. This (reaction) may have been what Surfer is failing to understand. That may sound unfair, but reality sometimes is. Ukraine, unfortunately, is simply not as *progressive* as western societies are at this time. Hell, even some pockets of western societies still harbor apprehension in this regard. No biggie...

It doesn't mean she's a bad woman. Conflicted? Very likely. I do not believe she's an alcoholic. Quite simply, alcohol likely and simply brought her inhibition down a notch or two.

Yeah, Surfer prepare yourself if you decide to continue your pursuit in the FSU (Ukraine). You need to believe that being 'different' can be to your advantage socially. Trust me on this. I'm not saying this lightly. Women, generally, are already curious about dudes of darker complexion. It's a natural attractant. It's the cultural taboo that causes the apprehension and not their primal instinct. IMHO, you already have an advantage over everyone else. I grew up in the land of Haoles - coastal SoCal. Barbies as far as the eyes can see. When I'd walk along the strands, even at a distance, who do you think these ladies eyes are fixated on? Nope, not my paled/transparent skinned boyz. Compared to them, I'm already 2 bases ahead of the pitch at hello. So now it's simply up to you to tip that balance to your favor. Once you find that 'mojo', they'll be at your beckon calling.

First steps are: Don't feel sorry for yourself. Your over-sensitivity gives you away. Who the f#@k really cares you're an Indian? LMAO! You should be so lucky! So chill out. Relax.

Having said this, if I were in your situation today, and since you appear not to be in this zone yet, you need to get your mojo juices flowing and start in places much more progressive in their views. Brazil is a great place to start, and the women are just as awesome. When you get a massive dose of confidence, then go where you think you'll find your niche. Then just indulge yourself.

Hell, I can't imagine why not the UK in your case, but I'm sure there's an underlying reason only you know.

My only suggestion to you is this: If you stick to international dating, or even the MOB, always remember not to pursue the 'country in a woman' but rather the 'woman' herself. This is a very common thing men do in this endeavor. You'll just get lost in the hype and ignore what a particular woman is all about. Or in your particular case - understand what she was going through with you.

Unfortunately, with her, I'd move on. You already missed that boat.

Have fun, man!

<>

CG, is that you?

[Trenchcoat]

Do you not understand what she said?  She just met you.  She doesn't know you well enough to have serious feelings.  And if you have serious feelings for her after 4 days, it likely means that you are falling in love with a fantasy you have

Oh, she has a life outside of you.  Heaven forbid.  Didn't she know it was her job to entertain you and coddle you every minute?  Didn't she know she was supposed to put her life on hold, just so she could cater to a stranger?

Yeah, a 50% chance.  That's the odds of anyone having an introvert.  About 50% of people are extroverted, and 50% are introverted.  It has nothing to do with their parents though.  (Normally, one parent is introverted, and one is extroverted.)

You've gone bonkers.  (and your father too.)  Introverted women can be very sociable creatures.  Large groups just drain their emotional energy quicker and they need alone time to recharge.  They just prefer to interact with smaller groups of people.  Whether or not someone is high or low in social monitoring has nothing to do with being introverted.

Surfer, the reason you are confused is because you fail to understand that while she was interested in getting to know you better, she was not getting attached to you at the same rate you were getting attached.

She prefers quiet places.  You like crowds and social interaction.  That is why she suggested going to an interesting place.  She was making a sacrifice to try to do something nice for you.  But you were too blind to see it.

What kind of guy expresses feelings for a girl he just met a couple days ago?  Seriously.

I think a few of your points you made in response here Beefarmer are true enough and others not so. I think what we have here is a mismatch, its no one's fault it happens. I don't think making excuses for the girl or Surfer being at fault is the root cause of the problem here.

Yes a girl that was truely into him in the FSU would start showing positive emotion quickly. Pretty much all girls the world over do, its an emotional reaction (chemistry) with someone we feel into, not a logical reaction. If time to get to know is needed for emotion to show then it's not instinctive love but love that one builds up after really knowing someone and forming an attachment over normally a long period of time. However sometimes an attachment never forms, some people are just too detached from each other for it to be possible.

I think here it was not instant love but the girl going for the longer term version of love in which someone comes to care about the other person. That can be a difficult process I think as it may result in much time wasted to just find out there is not the long term love that can be formed for each other. I think this girl is short on options so she goes for that option. I think it sounds like she did make time for Surfer and any girl who is at all serious about finding someone will do so.

It may be a roughly 50/50 split however only a small percentage are at either end and it can be not good news to be a the extreme end of the introvert/extrovert spectrum. Normally this IS inherited, occasionally genes mutate but it is normally derived from one parent or the other.

I would say the women here is an example of an extreme introvert. She has all the classic signs, burns out quickly in conversation with even just one individual, prefers to avoid crowds/people.

Once she is in a relationship with a guy, particularly after marriage & children she is likely to suit her own tastes and put her own needs for people avoidance first. This can be awkward and difficult. I personally think such women are best avoided, the kids can get the same and it's not a great thing to live with.

Generally people at the extreme introvert end, morsel women I find are NOT social creatures, they don't like/avoid social interaction - they tire during it, lack the practice to be good at it, take bad interactions to heart, and tend to be lacking in social bearing as to what to say and do. Most extreme introverted women are socially clueless by instinct and can also be clumsy physically lacking in co-ordination, a bit clutsy, which is not a good look. Imagine the archetypal extreme introvert girl, wears glasses, bookish, difficulty getting on with people, people avoidance and a lack of awareness of social surroundings. A bit like in the ninties film 'She's all that' for a example.

I personally think Surfer mag be quite a chatty guy, enjoys interaction and conversation, he may even chat a lot and quite fast which can be extra draining for an extreme introvert to follow and especially draining. I don't think there a goid match, I think he would be best to move on from her. I don't think such a girl is really cut out for a relationship nor a goid idea that she does so but many still insist on doing it despite not at all being people persons.

[msmob]

Ot went downhill after, "I think"

What you think and reality re FSUW...any women is tosh.

I don't think the thread title is 'fair'... Should be 'my first experience of meeting a Russian lass in Moscow.

Is where Surfer finds her relevant?

I have an Indian friend, living in Sochi, who has made gis life there with his Russian wife...

They seem blissfully happy

[John Gaunt]

Ot went downhill after, "I think"

I agree.

What you think and reality re FSUW...any women is tosh.

Agree.

I don't think the thread title is 'fair'... Should be 'my first experience of meeting a Russian lass in Moscow.

Is where Surfer finds her relevant?

True, didn’t have much to do with EM.

I have an Indian friend, living in Sochi, who has made gis life there with his Russian wife...

They seem blissfully happy

There are always exceptions.....

[John Gaunt]

I think a few of your points you made in response here Beefarmer are true enough and others not so. I think what we have here is a mismatch, its no one's fault it happens. I don't think making excuses for the girl or Surfer being at fault is the root cause of the problem here.

Yes a girl that was truely into him in the FSU would start showing positive emotion quickly. Pretty much all girls the world over do, its an emotional reaction (chemistry) with someone we feel into, not a logical reaction. If time to get to know is needed for emotion to show then it's not instinctive love but love that one builds up after really knowing someone and forming an attachment over normally a long period of time. However sometimes an attachment never forms, some people are just too detached from each other for it to be possible.

I think here it was not instant love but the girl going for the longer term version of love in which someone comes to care about the other person. That can be a difficult process I think as it may result in much time wasted to just find out there is not the long term love that can be formed for each other. I think this girl is short on options so she goes for that option. I think it sounds like she did make time for Surfer and any girl who is at all serious about finding someone will do so.

It may be a roughly 50/50 split however only a small percentage are at either end and it can be not good news to be a the extreme end of the introvert/extrovert spectrum. Normally this IS inherited, occasionally genes mutate but it is normally derived from one parent or the other.

I would say the women here is an example of an extreme introvert. She has all the classic signs, burns out quickly in conversation with even just one individual, prefers to avoid crowds/people.

Once she is in a relationship with a guy, particularly after marriage & children she is likely to suit her own tastes and put her own needs for people avoidance first. This can be awkward and difficult. I personally think such women are best avoided, the kids can get the same and it's not a great thing to live with.

Generally people at the extreme introvert end, morsel women I find are NOT social creatures, they don't like/avoid social interaction - they tire during it, lack the practice to be good at it, take bad interactions to heart, and tend to be lacking in social bearing as to what to say and do. Most extreme introverted women are socially clueless by instinct and can also be clumsy physically lacking in co-ordination, a bit clutsy, which is not a good look. Imagine the archetypal extreme introvert girl, wears glasses, bookish, difficulty getting on with people, people avoidance and a lack of awareness of social surroundings. A bit like in the ninties film 'She's all that' for a example.

I personally think Surfer mag be quite a chatty guy, enjoys interaction and conversation, he may even chat a lot and quite fast which can be extra draining for an extreme introvert to follow and especially draining. I don't think there a goid match, I think he would be best to move on from her. I don't think such a girl is really cut out for a relationship nor a goid idea that she does so but many still insist on doing it despite not at all being people persons.

Genetics isn’t your strong point is it?  Or psychology?
Mumbo jumbo ad nauseum.

Don’t give up your day job just yet Trench.

[JayH]

Don’t give up your day job just yet Trench.

Hey John --my advice ( & from many others)  was for him to get one !!