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Author Topic: The Struggle For Ukraine  (Read 188045 times)

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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2700 on: November 19, 2022, 03:56:14 PM »

I don't agree with that.  To me, that argument sounds like Ukrainian spin intended to guilt western countries into providing more financial support.

The infrastructure attacks (water/electric/train stations/etc) are only temporary.  If the war ended today, I suspect that utilities would be restored within a month.  Delaying investment by a month is nothing.

If you want to destroy infrastructure to discourage investment, you destroy every bridge possible.  (especially railroad bridges, since Ukraine is so dependent upon rail.)  You burn down every single building.  You tear out every mile of electric wire.  You salt the fields - of not with salt, then radioactive waste.  You completely destroy shipping ports and then sink every boat possible in the harbor.  You destroy every barge and merchant marine vessel.  You completely destroy every fuel depot.

These things take time to repair and rebuild.  These things must be fixed before you can attract investor money for projects that will earn a return.

I think the reason is far more simple.  Khodorkovsky said that when the common Ukrainian people did not come out to greet the Russian soldiers with flowers and open arms, this made Putin go crazy and put him in a rage.
Remember right after the war started, they had some peace talks?  It was in March sometime.  Putin sent a message to Ukraine.  "I will thrash you."

I think that is what the destruction of civilian infrastructure is about.  The insolent Ukrainians did not worship Putin and greet his soldiers with flowers, so he wants to make them suffer.  I think he knows that militarily Russia can't defeat Ukraine as long as it has western support...but he can make them suffer and make their life miserable, so that is what he is doing.

It's classic Soviet playbook.  Remember 90 years ago?  Those insolent kulaks wanted an independent Ukraine.  They all wanted to own their own family farm, where they could eke out a living.  They did not want to be a part of Soviet collective farms.
So the Soviets starved them into submission with the Holodomor. 4.5 million starved to death, and untold millions nearly starved to death.

It would not surprise me if the Russians start bombing food distribution warehouses again, like they did at the start of the war.  The old saying is that civilized societies are only 9 meals from complete anarchy.  When people go without food for 3 days straight, society breaks down.

The Holodomor was planned even before the Bolsheviks attained power.  It's not a good comparison.

The reason Russia won't salt the earth, nuke it, etc., is because they want those lands.  Rubes believe this is about NATO on Russia's doorstep (it's already on Russia's doorstep, in the Baltics and Poland).  Read what Putin has written and said the past two decades.  He has always maintained that Ukraine is an "artificial country", that Ukrainians don't exist as a separate ethnicity.  That's what his invasion was about.  I do believe Russia thinks the Europeans, in particular will develop fatigue in supporting Ukraine, and will abandon Ukraine.  That's what the infrastructure hits are about.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Bee Farmer

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2701 on: November 20, 2022, 01:21:38 AM »
I don't recall ever hearing that the Holodomor was planned before the Bolsheviks attained power.  But Ukrainian or even Soviet history was not really taught in school.
The stuff that sticks in my head was that they tried getting Ukrainians to collectivize.  Farm output and the Ukrainian economy started going down the toilet.  So the government backed off.  The Ukrainians farmers started making money and the economy was growing again.  6 or 8 years maybe.  And then the Soviets really pushed the collective farms in Ukraine, which ultimately led to the Holodomor.

I'm not convinced the infrastructure hits are related to trying to pressure western countries/Europe into developing support fatigue.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Cutting off gas to Europe before winter DOES seem to me to be trying to pressure Europe into fatigue.  Higher prices, or gas shortages, will cause social unrest among the people.  I think most people are disconnected from understanding that government spending is funded by taxation. (or at least in the US.)

Another possibility is that by targeting infrastructure, Russia is trying to cause the flight of human capital.
Many of the Ukrainians who moved to other countries did so because they had the financial means to do so.  Often, these are the politically connected or educated professionals or business folks.  There's a brain drain happening for Ukraine too. 

I think the longer the war stretches on, the more those Ukrainian immigrants will start to assimilate, learn western languages, and start to create lives in their host countries.  I think it is naive to believe that everyone who left Ukraine to escape the war will return after the war is over.  (Or if they return, will want to rebuild if they see villages and towns reduced to rubble, especially if they lived in the Russian occupied areas.  Let's be honest.  How many people will want to live in Mariupol anytime soon, even if it returned to Ukrainian control tomorrow?)

Then again, I look at things through a slightly different lens.  I was always taught that Russia was Gog and Magog, which is going to nuke America into oblivion without warning once Wormwood appears.  (Once Wormwood appears, they will believe the world is going to be f*cked anyway...and they will have nothing to lose by nuking America.  It's like a kid who knows they are going to lose a game, so they knock the board off the table.)  I had always wondered why Russia would resort to using the nuclear option as a first attack instead first using conventional warfare...but the war in Ukraine explains that.  Russia now knows they have no chance of winning a conventional war, which would explain using nukes as a first option.

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2702 on: November 20, 2022, 05:45:41 AM »
Image
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2703 on: November 21, 2022, 11:41:32 AM »
I don't recall ever hearing that the Holodomor was planned before the Bolsheviks attained power.  But Ukrainian or even Soviet history was not really taught in school.
The stuff that sticks in my head was that they tried getting Ukrainians to collectivize.  Farm output and the Ukrainian economy started going down the toilet.  So the government backed off.  The Ukrainians farmers started making money and the economy was growing again.  6 or 8 years maybe.  And then the Soviets really pushed the collective farms in Ukraine, which ultimately led to the Holodomor.

I'm not convinced the infrastructure hits are related to trying to pressure western countries/Europe into developing support fatigue.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Cutting off gas to Europe before winter DOES seem to me to be trying to pressure Europe into fatigue.  Higher prices, or gas shortages, will cause social unrest among the people.  I think most people are disconnected from understanding that government spending is funded by taxation. (or at least in the US.)

Another possibility is that by targeting infrastructure, Russia is trying to cause the flight of human capital.
Many of the Ukrainians who moved to other countries did so because they had the financial means to do so.  Often, these are the politically connected or educated professionals or business folks.  There's a brain drain happening for Ukraine too. 

I think the longer the war stretches on, the more those Ukrainian immigrants will start to assimilate, learn western languages, and start to create lives in their host countries.  I think it is naive to believe that everyone who left Ukraine to escape the war will return after the war is over.  (Or if they return, will want to rebuild if they see villages and towns reduced to rubble, especially if they lived in the Russian occupied areas.  Let's be honest.  How many people will want to live in Mariupol anytime soon, even if it returned to Ukrainian control tomorrow?)

Then again, I look at things through a slightly different lens.  I was always taught that Russia was Gog and Magog, which is going to nuke America into oblivion without warning once Wormwood appears.  (Once Wormwood appears, they will believe the world is going to be f*cked anyway...and they will have nothing to lose by nuking America.  It's like a kid who knows they are going to lose a game, so they knock the board off the table.)  I had always wondered why Russia would resort to using the nuclear option as a first attack instead first using conventional warfare...but the war in Ukraine explains that.  Russia now knows they have no chance of winning a conventional war, which would explain using nukes as a first option.


Collective farming was planned by Trotsky before the Revolution took hold in Ukraine.


Much of Europe has already replaced Russian gas.  Germany needs no imports of Russian gas, they have enough in storage for the winter. 


People whose families have lived in Mariupol for centuries will return.  That drive, to be on "my ancestors' lands" is something North Americans don't really comprehend.



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2704 on: November 21, 2022, 04:49:09 PM »
Image
Just saying it like it is.

Offline 2tallbill

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2705 on: November 21, 2022, 09:52:17 PM »
Much of Europe has already replaced Russian gas.  Germany needs no imports of Russian gas, they have enough in storage for the winter. 

They will need gas for winter but they will probably source it elsewhere

Germany's Natural Gas Storage Will Last For Two And A Half Months
http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germanys-Natural-Gas-Storage-Will-Last-For-Two-And-A-Half-Months.html
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Online John Gaunt

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2706 on: November 22, 2022, 07:58:11 AM »

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2707 on: November 25, 2022, 03:17:00 AM »
^That was an interesting article. 

Here is one about Chinas role-

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-line-biden-and-xis-secret-ukraine-talks-revealed/
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online John Gaunt

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2708 on: November 25, 2022, 05:20:18 AM »
^That was an interesting article. 

Here is one about Chinas role-

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-line-biden-and-xis-secret-ukraine-talks-revealed/

The Chinese are not to be trusted.

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2709 on: November 25, 2022, 02:27:24 PM »
They work in their own interests, and take a long view.


I don't trust them, but understand that they want good relations with Russia.


This is worth watching -


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online krimster2

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2710 on: November 26, 2022, 10:08:25 PM »
ya'll wanna see what Russian foreign political hacking looks like?
modern version of a Soviet Pravda Za Mir approach
ya'll rember "Za Mir"
well, I gotcher Za Mir RIGT HERE!


http://www.peaceactionwi.org/ukraine_crisis

meanwhile GAZPROM office in downtown Houston has a new "front man" who started just a few months ago
an American CPA LOL!!!

PS
I told ya'll years ago on this web site  that Biden's son's emails were being faked by the GRU
guess what?
in January 2023, the Republican Pro-Russian  Caucus of the House will start a special session to investigate Hunter Biden's Ukrainian laptop
I hope ya'll spelled everything right Tovartisch!
and for Bog's sake, Christmas is December 25, not January 7, Gozpedy, I can't believe you let THAT ONE through!

there's a magic eye in the sky
it wizzes 'round the earth every 90 minutes
and takes pictures of the battlefield
and sends 'em to a place in Odenton, Maryland
where a computer makes a spreadsheet of the coordinates it finds of campfires at night
and records location, duration, size
and compares these coordinates
from night to night
this Informatze gets translated to Ukrainian and updated constantly
cuz ukrainians shoot artillery "pooshkie" at these spots evey day
and Russians STILL don't know how they're being targeted
blaming it on local "spies"




« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 10:27:27 PM by krimster2 »

Offline Bee Farmer

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2711 on: November 28, 2022, 05:52:16 AM »
A Ukrainian friend told me some analysts are saying there is a 95% chance Belarus is going to join in the attack on Ukraine.  They are waiting on -10 temperatures to freeze the ground.

I told them western analysts didn't think Belarus would attack.  They only have a few thousand combat ready troops, and joining the war would probably break up Lukashenko's regime.

They said there are 15,000 Belarus troops, and 13,000 Russian troops that are ready and waiting.  They also pointed out that every 3rd missile fired at Ukraine comes from Belarus.

Let's hope Lukashenko's generals exercise some common sense and stay out of the war.

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2712 on: December 01, 2022, 07:43:20 PM »
An interesting article on sanctions-

http://archive.ph/WQkRT
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2713 on: December 02, 2022, 08:47:09 AM »
Russias initial plans for Ukraine.

Anyone who believes this was about NATO is delusional.

http://archive.ph/7cayk
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Bee Farmer

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2714 on: December 02, 2022, 09:57:46 PM »
Russias initial plans for Ukraine.

Anyone who believes this was about NATO is delusional.

http://archive.ph/7cayk

I'm a little skeptical of this.  Where was Russia going to source the manpower needed to conduct a door-to-door operation like this?  They would probably need a million man army to do this.

Why isn't Moldova mentioned in this?  Early maps showed Russian plans for sweeping into Moldova too.

Why didn't the Belorussian airborne forces participate?

Online John Gaunt

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2715 on: December 03, 2022, 02:26:22 AM »
Russias initial plans for Ukraine.

Anyone who believes this was about NATO is delusional.

http://archive.ph/7cayk
Tell that to the folk at the other place. The lies being propagated there showcase the owner as a Kremlin mouth piece on steroids.

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2716 on: December 03, 2022, 04:23:16 AM »
I have a  figure of 10k to 13k Ukrainian troops killed in this war so far,with another 7k missing in action....source M.Podolyak and now officially confirmed.


This compares favourably with Russian troops current death toll of 90,600...source Ukraine MOD.


I suspect the HIMARS etc and the 155mm precision artillery being used by Ukraine has played a major part in the far higher death toll for the Russian orcs....all these being increasingly used on high concentrations of them.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 05:00:47 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2717 on: December 03, 2022, 04:45:11 AM »
Tell that to the folk at the other place. The lies being propagated there showcase the owner as a Kremlin mouth piece on steroids.


That site needs shutting down ,as Russian TV was in this country.


The reasoning being that they're both pro-Russian propaganda outlets,so why should one be allowed to continue spewing it's Putler/Kremlin lies and rhetoric in the UK and not the other ?


I stopped viewing posts there some time ago..most of the participants,with a couple of exceptions who also post on here plus B.B.,i find to be abhorrent individuals lacking in any decency and morality whatsoever just like their heroes,some of whom are clearly drunk when posting.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 05:07:09 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2718 on: December 05, 2022, 01:33:19 AM »
Tell that to the folk at the other place. The lies being propagated there showcase the owner as a Kremlin mouth piece on steroids.


I had to laugh at allegations against me of being "pro Ukraine".  Of course I am pro Ukraine.  Like any sane person.  As I noted if Ukraine had INVADED Russia, I would be "pro Russia". 


Russia is an autocracy.  Ukraine is not.  Both have ineffective, corrupt governments.  But, Ukrainians were fighting their local corruption.  Russians never have.  I am bemused by Westerners who support autocratic, corrupt regimes.  We all know they won't live there (other than Steve, who shut up when I pointed out he is not the "big shot" he claims to be).
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2719 on: December 05, 2022, 03:37:02 AM »

I had to laugh at allegations against me of being "pro Ukraine".  Of course I am pro Ukraine.  Like any sane person.  As I noted if Ukraine had INVADED Russia, I would be "pro Russia". 


Russia is an autocracy.  Ukraine is not.  Both have ineffective, corrupt governments.  But, Ukrainians were fighting their local corruption.  Russians never have.  I am bemused by Westerners who support autocratic, corrupt regimes.  We all know they won't live there (other than Steve, who shut up when I pointed out he is not the "big shot" he claims to be).


It bemuses me also,but the sad reality is that there are unpleasant people/nutjobs everywhere.


One only has to look at the comments by a certain rapper in the USA to see how mentally deranged some people are..the ludicrous beliefs he has totally ignoring the fact that if Hitler had won he'd have been raised in a concentration camp and no way would he have had the luxurious lifestyle he has now.
Just saying it like it is.

Online John Gaunt

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2720 on: December 05, 2022, 06:05:20 AM »

I had to laugh at allegations against me of being "pro Ukraine".  Of course I am pro Ukraine.  Like any sane person.  As I noted if Ukraine had INVADED Russia, I would be "pro Russia". 


Russia is an autocracy.  Ukraine is not.  Both have ineffective, corrupt governments.  But, Ukrainians were fighting their local corruption.  Russians never have.  I am bemused by Westerners who support autocratic, corrupt regimes.  We all know they won't live there (other than Steve, who shut up when I pointed out he is not the "big shot" he claims to be).
Indeed. One doesnt need to have connections to Ukraine to acknowledge right from wrong.
There seems to be complete cognitive dissonance amongst the rabid Putin supporters who trot out the same tired variants of Nazism and other tripe to justify aggression on a scale unseen since WW2.



Offline 2tallbill

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2721 on: December 05, 2022, 09:30:54 AM »
Explosions rock Russian military airbases; new strikes hit Ukraine
http://dnyuz.com/2022/12/05/explosions-rock-russian-military-airbases-new-strikes-hit-ukraine/


Satellite Images Show Massive Destruction At Russian Air Base On Crimea
http://www.rferl.org/a/crimea-russian-air-base-attacked-satellite-images/31982540.html


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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2722 on: December 05, 2022, 08:12:56 PM »


Good women are not cheap
Cheap women are not good
(but they can be a lot of fun)

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2723 on: December 06, 2022, 12:23:44 AM »
This is very tangentially connected to the discussion of Russian autocracy. The last paragraphs proved prescient.

http://www.nationalreview.com/2006/11/kremlins-killing-ways-ion-mihai-pacepa/
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #2724 on: December 06, 2022, 02:36:51 PM »
Tell that to the folk at the other place. The lies being propagated there showcase the owner as a Kremlin mouth piece on steroids.

He is Bagdad Bob
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

 

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