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Author Topic: NATO, does it have a future?  (Read 21580 times)

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Offline Larry1

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NATO to deploy troops in the Baltic Republics and Poland
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2016, 02:20:13 PM »
This thread seems as good as any to share this news.

Quote
NATO allies reportedly plan to put four battalions in Poland and other Baltic countries to beef up its Russian border as Moscow steps up military activity.

According to The Wall Street Journal Friday, U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work confirmed the overall size of the force – about 4,000 troops – and said the reinforcements were a response to the increased Russian activity around the nations of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/04/30/nato-reportedly-plans-to-send-4-battalions-to-eastern-border-with-russia.html

It's a very small force but perhaps it will be enough to deter the Russians from doing to the Baltic Republics what they have been doing to Ukraine. The practice of Russian troops on extended vacations abroad with their armaments is something that should be deterred.

Perhaps it is designed to be a tripwire, as American troops in Western Europe during the Cold War were designed to be. If the soviets invaded and attacked American troops they would certainly have overwhelmed them but they would know that we would retaliate.

Two of the battalions will be from the united states and the other two will be from Germany and the UK.

Russia, of course, objects to the move. They prefer their prey poorly armed.

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2016, 08:06:18 AM »
Should NATO broaden its mission to address terror, intervening against groups who sponsor terror attacks against member countries? 

NATO went to Afghanistan to fight al Qaeda and even the Taliban (who did not attack the US).   However, so far there is no proposal to deploy to Syria even though ISIL attacked France and Belgium. 

Maybe some fear that if NATO took a broader stand against terror, it would take over the domestic programs as well. Or maybe the different member countries simply are not comfortable in sharing intelligence, etc. 

In any event, Putin's initiatives give reasons for keeping NATO intact.  Question:  did the NATO actions to include Poland, Baltic States, etc.  compel Putin's subsequent actions in Ukraine?  When the situation was reversed, we know what we did.

There is a broader issue, al Qaeda started as the Afghan Mujahideen which were primarily loosely connected fundamentalist groups who were opposing the Godless Soviet's in their country. (there words not mine). The U.S. saw the opportunity to "Make the Soviets Bleed as they did us in Vietnam" and yes I personally heard this and much worse in the halls and meeting rooms of the Pentagon.

The U.S. support was originally covert using the CIA through Pakistan, as usual this began small and built up exponentially. As the  Mujahideen began to grow and show signs of success the Soviets reacted as expected with increasing military force, they poured tens of thousands of additional troops into the conflict and vast resources. Which was the intent, the Mujahideen would fight, the Afgan people would bleed, die and their resistance against the Soviets would increase (sound familiar?). The net effect was that as the low level conflict escalated the Soviets were spending themselves into oblivion and there was increasing discontent with their ranks (sounds a bit like Vietnam).

My direct involvement came in early 1987 when a 100 man Special Operations force was being assembled, the object we to insert 2 to 4 man teams throughout the autonomous mountain regions in-bedded with local war lords and some of the larger villages. We were there to train, equip and advise these relatively ineffective tribal ragtag groups into an effective gorilla force and to foment a budding insurgency.

We were inserted into these groups during the winter of 1987 and began training and coordination efforts. It did not take long before we were going out on ambushes against Soviet supply columns which escalated into attacking check-points and outposts. As their small unit combat skills increased so did the intensity of the attacks, we (the U.S.) coordinated simultaneous attacks on Soviet forces and interests across vast regions.

To make a 14 month in-country story short when the Soviets departed we left everything, tens of thousands of tons of weapons, munitions, encrypted communication equipment and believe me a large number of very well trained young men along with a LOT of money. The U.S. went to great lengths to advance the fundamentalist ideology, we received airdrops of Korans, prayer rugs and fundamentalist propaganda, we facilitated the development of local Madrasas to further radicalize the local populations.

What did the U.S. expect would happen to a failed Islamic state, I can tell you from first hand experience no one cared; the U.S. had in the eyes of the Military and the Political establishment of the time accomplished their mission of significantly wreaking the Soviet military and giving them a demoralizing bloody nose. 

Something will fill a vacuum, in the case of Afghanistan the most organized group were the fundamentalists and they had the arms to back up their bid for power. The Taliban is a direct outgrowth of U.S. policy and actions.

Why is anyone surprised that al Qaeda came into existence, who do you think provided the training and equipment or fomented the radical ideology?

More often that not the U.S. is its own worst enemy.
           

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO to deploy troops in the Baltic Republics and Poland
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2016, 09:45:31 AM »
This thread seems as good as any to share this news.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/04/30/nato-reportedly-plans-to-send-4-battalions-to-eastern-border-with-russia.html

It's a very small force but perhaps it will be enough to deter the Russians from doing to the Baltic Republics what they have been doing to Ukraine. The practice of Russian troops on extended vacations abroad with their armaments is something that should be deterred.

Perhaps it is designed to be a tripwire, as American troops in Western Europe during the Cold War were designed to be. If the soviets invaded and attacked American troops they would certainly have overwhelmed them but they would know that we would retaliate.

Two of the battalions will be from the united states and the other two will be from Germany and the UK.

Russia, of course, objects to the move. They prefer their prey poorly armed.

Larry the U.S. should also heed something similar to your words The practice of American troops on extended vacations abroad with their armaments is something that should be deterred.

How can the American people continue to pay for some 700 overseas bases and how can their government continue to justify it?

Offline BillyB

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Re: NATO to deploy troops in the Baltic Republics and Poland
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2016, 10:16:49 AM »
Larry the U.S. should also heed something similar to your words The practice of American How can the American people continue to pay for some 700 overseas bases and how can their government continue to justify it?


According to the article below, in 2013 America spent 10 billion dollars for the bases overseas. That's cheap for all those bases. The host countries pay for costs too.  Since 2013, Russia and China has been on the move and nations in Europe and Asia has asked America to increase their presence and those nations have also increased their military budgets. Providing security for those nations are beneficial to America as they will buy our goods and weapons hoping to create a stronger bond with us.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/17/us-reportedly-footing-more-bill-for-overseas-bases-despite-cuts-to-military.html
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO to deploy troops in the Baltic Republics and Poland
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2016, 10:38:17 AM »
According to the article below, in 2013 America spent 10 billion dollars for the bases overseas. That's cheap for all those bases. The host countries pay for costs too.  Since 2013, Russia and China has been on the move and nations in Europe and Asia has asked America to increase their presence and those nations have also increased their military budgets. Providing security for those nations are beneficial to America as they will buy our goods and weapons hoping to create a stronger bond with us.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/17/us-reportedly-footing-more-bill-for-overseas-bases-despite-cuts-to-military.html

The party line Billy, is 700 bases really necessary? Is the F-35 really necessary (it cannot even get off the runway) and on and on. yes we live in a dangerous and unstable world but why is it so unstable? Who kicked over the ant hill in the sand box? Who decided to loose over 53,000 American service men in Vietnam for no reason (oh that is right to stop communist expansion). And on and on and on.

Propaganda Billy, propaganda 

Online krimster2

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2016, 10:40:11 AM »
“My direct involvement came in early 1987 when a 100 man Special Operations force was being assembled, the object we to insert 2 to 4 man teams throughout the autonomous mountain regions in-bedded with local war lords and some of the larger villages...”

Are you contradicting statements made by Peter Bergen?, writing in Holy War, Inc., where he wrote the following, “ no Americans trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen. The skittish CIA had fewer than 10 operatives in the region because it "feared it would be blamed, like in Guatemala".

You mention the Pentagon, was this covert operation involving 100 personnel established by the Pentagon or the CIA?

“into an effective “gorilla” force”
seriously?



Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2016, 10:52:21 AM »
“My direct involvement came in early 1987 when a 100 man Special Operations force was being assembled, the object we to insert 2 to 4 man teams throughout the autonomous mountain regions in-bedded with local war lords and some of the larger villages...”

Are you contradicting statements made by Peter Bergen?, writing in Holy War, Inc., where he wrote the following, “ no Americans trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen. The skittish CIA had fewer than 10 operatives in the region because it "feared it would be blamed, like in Guatemala".

You mention the Pentagon, was this covert operation involving 100 personnel established by the Pentagon or the CIA?

“into an effective “gorilla” force”
seriously?

Yes that was the object to create a gorilla force which would grow into an insurgency to coalesce the Mujahideen into a effective small unit combat force in order to harass, hit and "Make the Soviets Bleed". While I personally had little direct contact with the CIA their operatives were being directly handled by them. We were under direct operational control of the Pentagon. 

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2016, 11:06:19 AM »
I'm sorry, but I would think that someone in the "trade" would have encountered the word "guerilla" with enough frequency that they would have no difficulty keeping the word separate from the homophone "gorilla", wouldn't you?

To this day, the Pentagon maintains that they had no personnel in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghani war, and that all the covert operations were handled by the CIA under "Operation Cyclone".  So are you saying the Pentagon's statements aren't true, because if you are, and can provide evidence of it, then this is quite newsworthy, and I'd like to forward it to some journalist friends...

Offline BillyB

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Re: NATO to deploy troops in the Baltic Republics and Poland
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2016, 11:09:03 AM »
The party line Billy, is 700 bases really necessary?
 


The Philippines, Poland and the Baltics recently asked to increase American presence there. NATO nations and those bordering or sharing an ocean with China increased military spending. I think those nations will say "yes". It's cheaper to supply security for friendly nations than to let them get into a war they're going to lose.

Is the F-35 really necessary (it cannot even get off the runway) and on and on.


The F-35 is no F-22 and I've heard the criticisms on it. If the plane was perfect, it would not be sold to other nations. This plane was built to be sold to other nations so perfection wasn't the goal when building it. Still it can hold it's own against Russian fighters. It can't beat them in a dogfight but it's goal is to destroy the enemy before being seen.

yes we live in a dangerous and unstable world but why is it so unstable? Who kicked over the ant hill in the sand box?


After WW2 most of the world wanted to live in peace but the USSR saw a golden opportunity to spread their influence. This is still on the minds of world leaders today that there are leaders of nations that want to conquer.

Who decided to loose over 53,000 American service men in Vietnam for no reason (oh that is right to stop communist expansion). And on and on and on.
 


Our politicians made the mistake in preventing our military from doing what it does best. Our military was not allowed to advance at all in Vietnam and end the war quickly.


Propaganda Billy, propaganda 



Some call it propaganda, others call it reality.

Those that are close to Russia, North Korea, Iran, and China call the need for American bases around the world necessity. As long as those nations are willing to pay for their bases to some extent and help America's economy buying our goods, I'm okay with that.

Those that feel Russia and China aren't a threat don't have to invite American troops on their land or no obligated to join NATO. Ukraine trusted Russia with a base in Crimea. Ask Ukraine how that worked out for them. China signed onto the UN and is obligated in settling land disputes through the UN. Ask nations in SE Asia how that worked out for them. In reality, if America didn't enforce international law, nobody would.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline AkMike

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Re: NATO to deploy troops in the Baltic Republics and Poland
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2016, 11:24:07 AM »

Some call it propaganda, others call it reality.
The same can be said for the news sources. Pro Russian look at Pravda, Sputnik, Tass, Ria, and RT. Many of which and state owned or controlled.
 Global Research out of Canada also fits this left leaning description w/o being state owned.

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2016, 12:21:13 PM »
I'm sorry, but I would think that someone in the "trade" would have encountered the word "guerilla" with enough frequency that they would have no difficulty keeping the word separate from the homophone "gorilla", wouldn't you?

To this day, the Pentagon maintains that they had no personnel in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghani war, and that all the covert operations were handled by the CIA under "Operation Cyclone".  So are you saying the Pentagon's statements aren't true, because if you are, and can provide evidence of it, then this is quite newsworthy, and I'd like to forward it to some journalist friends...

New Flash! The Pentagon Never Lies.... The DOD is Never and Never has been Involved in Covert Deniable Operations....

Journalism is dead,
printed news is dead, if it is not on TV, a Facebook feed, Twitter or YouTube is never happened. The TV news is Not controlled.... Of course not.

Anything else? Look up Gary Webster http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/movies/kill-the-messenger-recalls-a-reporter-wrongly-disgraced.html?_r=0 Read “Dark Alliance: The C.I.A., The Contras and the Crack Cocaine Explosion.

The DOD is up to its eyes in deniable covert operations and corruption is rampit and yet you never hear about any of it. I wonder why?

Read the book Dirty Wars http://dirtywars.org/the-book and watch the companion movie for a small window into a very dark world, a world I lived in for 10 years before quitting in order to reclaim at least a piece of my soul.





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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2016, 12:38:38 PM »
Gary Webster?  I assume you mean Gary Webb? 

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2016, 12:46:00 PM »
Gary Webster?  I assume you mean Gary Webb?

Apologizes I have been in rushing all day and writing for a tablet not a laptop.

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2016, 01:03:30 PM »
Russia to boost military force if Sweden allies with NATO - senator http://www.rt.com/politics/341330-russia-will-boost-its-military/
Now I agree and understand that a country, any country have the sovereign right to do as they Damn well please, and NATO is far more than a military pact.
But perhaps it is time to revise the NATO charter to reflect the realities in a post Soviet world? It might go a long way towards reducing tensions between real and perceived adversaries.



Offline fathertime

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2016, 01:26:33 PM »
New Flash! The Pentagon Never Lies.... The DOD is Never and Never has been Involved in Covert Deniable Operations....




It is amazing what comes out decades later.  I've come to the conclusion that the American people, and the world is always lied to by our State Department.  People have to try to figure what is really going on through their constant misdirection and spin. 
Fathertime! 
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Offline Muzh

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2016, 01:54:05 PM »
 :popcorn:
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2016, 02:09:08 PM »

It is amazing what comes out decades later.  I've come to the conclusion that the American people, and the world is always lied to by our State Department.  People have to try to figure what is really going on through their constant misdirection and spin. 
Fathertime!

What did Jack Nicholson have to say about telling the truth in his movie ??
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Offline fathertime

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2016, 05:17:23 PM »
What did Jack Nicholson have to say about telling the truth in his movie ??


Ha!  You are correct, the American people probably wouldn't be able to handle the truth, and think of our country in the same way again.  To stay strong, I guess we need a large core of 'true believers', but among us here at RWD we can be more honest, I think.


Fathertime! 
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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2016, 02:03:57 AM »
Quote
The TV news is Not controlled.... Of course not.
No, it is not by government. It is often found marching to divergent political interests due to young journalists being taught the lie that their job is to "shape" the news. This has given rise to some outlets being "liberal" and others to position themselves "conservative", but there is no outside control. The biggest control today on Western media is peer pressure and political correctness, not government mandates.

Were Western governments try to control media, as is done in Russia, for example, that would be the biggest news story of the decade.
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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2016, 04:00:10 AM »
Were Western governments try to control media, as is done in Russia, for example, that would be the biggest news story of the decade.

Are you sure, mendy?  If they were successful, it wouldn't be reported.  8)

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2016, 06:57:09 AM »
No, it is not by government. It is often found marching to divergent political interests due to young journalists being taught the lie that their job is to "shape" the news. This has given rise to some outlets being "liberal" and others to position themselves "conservative", but there is no outside control. The biggest control today on Western media is peer pressure and political correctness, not government mandates.

Were Western governments try to control media, as is done in Russia, for example, that would be the biggest news story of the decade.


Mindless Media: News anchors from over a dozen US networks all reading the same script.

And you REALLY believe that the news is not scripted? This is one of many such videos. The media is in bed with governments, the government is in bed with the media. True free main stream press/media is a myth.

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2016, 07:08:14 AM »
Mindless Media: News anchors from over a dozen US networks all reading the same script.

And you REALLY believe that the news is not scripted? This is one of many such videos. The media is in bed with governments, the government is in bed with the media. True free main stream press/media is a myth.

Funny, you make that claim to an accredited journalist.

I have known a few talking heads in my time.  They were fierce in their independence.  There is no 'Hocus Pocus' that dominates what is reported in Western media outlets.    Quite honestly, I've always thought that the media was more biased, not on what the government is saying, but what sells (more newspapers, more viewers, more internet hits.)
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Offline ML

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2016, 07:39:01 AM »
Mindless Media: News anchors from over a dozen US networks all reading the same script.

And you REALLY believe that the news is not scripted? This is one of many such videos. The media is in bed with governments, the government is in bed with the media. True free main stream press/media is a myth.

I totally disagree with you.
Our press is almost totally free all the time.
Once in a while I think (but am not sure) that they may agree to 'hold back' on a story for a short period of time if the President pleads 'national security' or some such.
But they won't hold back for very long . . . no matter the harm to our country.

Rather than government control over the media; if there is any control it would come from the owner of a particular media.  But that would only be one owner; other owners would not be agreeing, so the story would be told anyway.

And, in USA, there are dozens of wide reaching bloggers, etc., who are putting out tons of info, some of which has no basis in fact, but much of which does.

In short, there is NOTHING that will not be learned by persons residing in USA . . . even if there might be lags sometimes.

I personally wish there were things that were not knowable; but it's not going to happen in the USA.
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Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2016, 08:08:33 AM »
I totally disagree with you.
Our press is almost totally free all the time.
Once in a while I think (but am not sure) that they may agree to 'hold back' on a story for a short period of time if the President pleads 'national security' or some such.
But they won't hold back for very long . . . no matter the harm to our country.

Rather than government control over the media; if there is any control it would come from the owner of a particular media.  But that would only be one owner; other owners would not be agreeing, so the story would be told anyway.

And, in USA, there are dozens of wide reaching bloggers, etc., who are putting out tons of info, some of which has no basis in fact, but much of which does.

In short, there is NOTHING that will not be learned by persons residing in USA . . . even if there might be lags sometimes.

I personally wish there were things that were not knowable; but it's not going to happen in the USA.

Blogs and Alternative Media is not the main stream media.

These 6 Corporations Control 90% Of The Media In America http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6

Of course the main stream media is not controlled.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/03/sharyl-attkisson-resigns-from-cbs-news-184836

Attkisson, who has been with CBS News for two decades, had grown frustrated with what she saw as the network’s liberal bias, an outsize influence by the network’s corporate partners and a lack of dedication to investigative reporting, several sources said. She increasingly felt that her work was no longer supported and that it was a struggle to get her reporting on air.
Stonewalled: My Fight for Truth Against the Forces of Obstruction, Intimidation, and Harassment in Obama's Washington by Sharyl Attkisson

But please feel free to cling to your belief that the main stream media and the dyeing press is not controlled.

I agree the alternative media has taken up the mantle of exposing the truth but what percent of the public pays attention to it? There has been an aggressive push to squash the alternative media by powerful forces inside and outside of the government as not being a "true" media. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 05:24:01 PM by TigerPaws »

Offline TigerPaws

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Re: NATO, does it have a future?
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2016, 05:32:00 PM »

I personally wish there were things that were not knowable; but it's not going to happen in the USA.

Here we have a fundamental difference, I would like more transparency, far more. If the American public knew what has been and what is being done in their name their is not enough rope in the country to string up the guilty.

The U.S. is guilty of killing or causing the deaths of near 1 million civilians in Iraq alone, the U.S. led the charge in Libya there uncounted thousands died because of our actions, the U.S. has directly killed uncounted thousands in Afghanistan and Chad.

America was founded on the words "We the People" not we the elite.
 

 

 

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