Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[newjason]

Now that we have a clear picture of the choices we have for our next leader, I ask again, Is this the best we can do?
This election will not be about who is the best person to be our president, but rather, who is the lesser of the evils.

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas, I know you as a very wise man on this site. But I don't understand what you mean when you say Ron Paul "makes too much sense fiscally and yet has some ideas well out on the lunatic fringe".
 
For me personally it is not a moral position to state that you don't support a candidate because you think he will not get enough votes from the others to matter. It's like people saying they will vote for the lesser of two evils. It's still evil!

Well, that's the thing. I don't support Paul. I have voted for and sent money to the Gingrich campaign. He is the best candidate and most conservative in the race. I had a good idea he that has not a snowball's chance in Hell but, his idea of getting the country back on sound footing is head and shoulders above the rest. Gingrich has too much baggage and is unelectable. Without a doubt IMHO, the smartest and most experienced of the field. I wouldn't support Paul for a number of reasons, the least being because he can't win. Although, I do agree with him on many issues.
 

I agree USA needs a third party but only if that means it will be diffrent from the two (one) party system today. Ron Paul is on the Republicant side but he is very much unlike the others, on either side of the political flavour. I believe he sides with one side only to be in contention at all, lest he be sidelined completely.
 
You know as well as I do that Ron Paul will never be allowed to win the nomination, even if the American masses wised up. This is his last election I guess. After all, he's 77. But whatever happens, he's an American patriot in running and putting up the issues. He has warned the American public of what is happening and I think nobody with an ounce of intelligence would disagree that he can run circles with anyone in politics when it comes to economics.
 

America needs a 3rd party but not just "any ole party will do" It has to be a grassroots and borne of both the right and left. It needs the teeth, influence and power of both the Dem and Rep. Our current system along with the Dems and Repubs make this impossible. They will never yield.Our political system much like the end of the Roman empire has divided the elitists (politicians) and powerfully rich from the rest. Our politicians are not in the least concerned with what is good or bad for our country. Just what makes them more powerful and re-elected. A third party would, for a time anyway, dilute that power.

I have a hate/love relationship about USA. I love the idea of what the USA was, it's potential and I hate what it's become. When the US decided to become an empire, that was it. Now it's a dying empire and the rulers want to keep it's citizens preoccupied with bread and circus while it's dying. An injured beast is the most dangerous when it's in that state.
 
What it was, was a country where the poor could come to. They could get land and work their way up, doing honest work. They had equal opportunity and didn't have to answer to landlords like in Europe.

You and I will disagree here. America hasn't to my knowledge "decided" to be an empire. There are different beliefs on this even in America. However, IMHO the American economy being strong and prosperous, along with global has allowed virtually any other nations to ride along on the parade. A bad side effect of that is the world economy depends on what the American economy does which is greatly influenced on the American political system. The American political system is corrupt to the core. Fueled largely by globalization. A case of the mother eating her young, so to speak. America has the look of an empire by default. Since the fall of the USSR, America is the only game in town. To the point that when America breaks wind, the world takes a dump.
 

I just cannot see any other way out of disaster than to vote for Ron Paul. Hey, when he speaks, even I as a foreigner feel patriotic. Believe me when I say this, I want USA as our ally, as our friend, a strong and free nation. But too many in the great nation has been duped into believing they can force their will on everybody. That has got to stop.

Paul while he speaks a good game has a long history of running for President. He's garnered more support this time around but his lunatic fringe (as referenced by GQ and others) keeps him in clown status. He was doing well early in this election until he opened his mouth on Iran. Iran, not Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other arab nations are the serious threat to the US and the global economy. Paul believes they should be left alone to do with whatever they wish with nuclear tecvhnology. Leaving Iran alone with nuclear weapons isn't something most Americans are comfortable with.

PS: This is not an attack on USA or it's people. We in Europe has equal blame in supporting the wars of agression on nations when "promoting democracy" .

Wasn't taken as such. The bottom line here Roy is, the world (lead by the USA) is in a world of shit. I wish I had something patriotic to add but, it just isn't there. You guys across the ocean can point, blame and offer up the same ideas we have over here but at the end of the day, you are all in this boat of shit with us. Whether you wish to believe it or not. Comforting huh? 

[The Natural]

Ron Paul is a smooth talker like Obama, the more i find out about him the less i like.

Yeah, you go right ahead and vote for one of the actors. You feel down because Paul speaks the truth, so on that ground you choose to cast your vote for one of the company men?
 
I feel that USA has been given a chance via Ron Paul to get on the right track again. Don't for a minute think that  your vote counts for nothing. I fimly believe that our actions will count a great deal... at the end!

[Darth_Budda]

Yeah, you go right ahead and vote for one of the actors. You feel down because Paul speaks the truth, so on that ground you choose to cast your vote for one of the company men?
 
I feel that USA has been given a chance via Ron Paul to get on the right track again. Don't for a minute think that  your vote counts for nothing. I fimly believe that our actions will count a great deal... at the end!

1st - I like a lot of what Ron Paul says in the way of personal freedom and bringing the troops home.
Which BTW are mostly in their 20's...

2nd - He is a Racist and a homophobic person

3rd - His economic ideas will send us in to another great depression.

Take some time and read about President Andrew Jackson..

Ron Paul is a Jacksonian!!

Their is a reason why Hamilton economic ideas beat out Jefferson..

If you don't know who Alexander Hamilton is you need to read some American history.

As Marx said materialism is better than idealism.

[The Natural]

Well, that's the thing. I don't support Paul. I have voted for and sent money to the Gingrich campaign.

That  reminds me of what is so often said here. Don't send money to her before you meet. Have you met Mr. Gingrich?
 

You and I will disagree here. America hasn't to my knowledge "decided" to be an empire.There are different beliefs on this even in America. However, IMHO the American economy being strong and prosperous, along with global has allowed virtually any other nations to ride along on the parade.

As far as I know there is no other empire after the fall of the USSR to contest the military might of USA.
USA has traditionally been effective economy-wise but there are conflicting views concerning it's latter day status as the engine for world economics. Yes, it's still the number 1 in economic output, but it also is important to keep in mind Bretton Woods of 1944 which established the US dollar as the world reserve currency. This means that USA is the only country in the world that can print it's own currency and have it accepted worldwide as hard currency. Oil, gold and so on is reported in US dollars and the US maintain it's empire as long as this system is trusted. Now, because the US is no longer as competitive and also running numerous expensive wars around the globe, this status is at risk.
 

 
Paul while he speaks a good game has a long history of running for President. He's garnered more support this time around but his lunatic fringe (as referenced by GQ and others) keeps him in clown status. He was doing well early in this election until he opened his mouth on Iran. Iran, not Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the other arab nations are the serious threat to the US and the global economy. Paul believes they should be left alone to do with whatever they wish with nuclear tecvhnology. Leaving Iran alone with nuclear weapons isn't something most Americans are comfortable with.
Wasn't taken as such. The bottom line here Roy is, the world (lead by the USA) is in a world of shit. I wish I had something patriotic to add but, it just isn't there. You guys across the ocean can point, blame and offer up the same ideas we have over here but at the end of the day, you are all in this boat of shit with us. Whether you wish to believe it or not. Comforting huh? 

Oh man, I'm so surprised to read that you buy into the Iran scare story and how they're just about to get nuclear weapons. I've heard it since 2006... war is imminent. We have to do something. This is in my sincere opinion nonsense and I personally will not take part of it because it can instigate WW3 in the worst case scenario. Come on !!! The American people must be the most afraid people on earth if they believe this. May I remind you the only one in history to ever develop and use atomic weapons are the US.
And what about north Korea? Surely a few nuclear missiles would quiet them down.
 
It surely must be getting more difficult to explain to the US public how it all connects. By Americans we Europeans are ridiculed because we have such high prices at the gas pumps. Yes, the gas prices at the pumps in USA are low but you forget all the military costs of occupying the oil producing contries and what that cost. Only this cost comes to your children and grandchildren. Come on, wake up!!!
 
You want to be patriotic, well, every nation wants to be patriotic. Is it really necessary to use the military might to show it? It's a waste of life and limb and your economy too.
 
Hey, let me tell you there are other criminals against mankind too. My own country of Norway of a mere 5 million people managed to send F-16's to Libya and count 11% of all the bombs dropped there. I had no saying in the decision but at least I wrote my opposition on Facebook!...... It's pathetic.
 
It is really surreal. What I grew up with has proved to be lies. We, in the west, were always the good guys and those in the Soviet Union were beasts. Now our enemies are changed into Muslims.
We are to be sooooo afraid of the Muslims and accepting the control of our own lives because of the treat from outside. There always has to be an enemy, doesn't it?
 
And if the attempt whitch is ongoing to surround Russia is not
successful, the western military forces will angage and
ensure destruction on all of us.
 
Hey, seems to me it's about time my look-alike Vladimir Putin come on stage again and take to task the war-mongeriong anglo-saxon war aggressors?
 
And pleeeease...... those with at least an IQ of 120..... don't fall for the propaganda where ever it comes from. Read the King James Bible!
 
 
 

[calmissile]

The Natural,

Please tell us of all the oil producing countries that we currently occupy.  Also, please tell us how  much free oil the Americans are receiving from Kuait and Iraq.

[The Natural]

The Natural,

Please tell us of all the oil producing countries that we currently occupy.  Also, please tell us how  much free oil the Americans are receiving from Kuait and Iraq.

Free oil? Did I say free oil? Oh no my friend, if you're not paying for it right now your children will.
 
Let's see. The control of Kuwait via Iraq for untold billions. And one tiny bit of info that I did not mention beacause it might be too complicated. It is not that the powers that be in the USA act on behalf of it's people. I take it as a given informed people know it is not so. The powers of the US tax payers are being used in a game for profit by elite private cooperations in USA and Europe, but by saying so I'm pretty sure I will quickly be labelled a conspiracy therorist, so be it.
 
The British puppet Idi Amin ran Uganda all through the 70's, killing hundreds of thousands, no problem. But a couple of years ago Uganda discovered oil and all of a suddeen the Kony 2012 campaign was unleashed. It's not only oil, it's all natural resources including narcotics.
 
But if you or others wish to remain "patriots" and support the present policies, there is nothing more to say. At least you have been told the truth!

[SFandEE]

It is not that the powers that be in the USA act on behalf of it's people. I take it as a given informed people know it is not so. The powers of the US tax payers are being used in a game for profit by elite private cooperations in USA and Europe, but by saying so I'm pretty sure I will quickly be labelled a conspiracy therorist, so be it.

Hang in there The Natural, I do not think you are a conspiracy theorist.  Keep speaking truth to the fundamentalists.

[calmissile]

The Natural,

You did not answer my question...
You have implied that gasoline prices are cheaper in the US as a result of us occupying oil producing countries.
Please tell us what oil producing countries the US is currently occupying!!!

Your premise that we are now getting cheaper gasoline as a result of the Gulf War is not correct either.  The price of gasoline has more than doubled since the Gulf War.  How is it that we are benefitting from cheaper gas, when the cost has more than doubled?

Please answer the first question and then connect the dots for us as to how we are getting cheaper gas as a  result of our occupation.

[calmissile]

The Natural,

We are to be sooooo afraid of the Muslims and accepting the control of our own lives because of the treat from outside.

On this subject you are correct!  We are afraid of the radical Muslims.  And yes, they have a nice treat for us from outside.   Lets see......... World Trade Center, embassy bombings, ship bombings, airline bombings, suicide bombers, etc etc.  Many of us in the US do not like these kind of treats. 

If you are happy to be a pacifist, that is OK with me.  I would much rather we deal with legitimate threats before the bombs, beheadings, etc. are inflicted on my family and friends.  I respect your right to not protect yourself, your family, or your country.

[The Natural]

calmissile,
 
I've spent a lot of time on this site tonight and now it's time to go to bed. Just to say that by reading your replies to my posts, it will be an utterly futile use of time and energy to answer you. I would have to answer you double, tripple and so on and you would still not understand my answer and still ask questions, as if it's novel.
 
Right now I will go to bed and sleep a few hours. I reckon you will sleep a lot longer but I hope you too will finally one day wake up and smell the coffee... if it isn't rationed by then.
 
 

[GQBlues]

...his administration is continuing the previous wars and adding new ones! There's Egypt and Libya and on the books Syria and Iran. Drones over Pakistan and on and on. It never ends, republican or democrat.

Oh the dramatics! I can barely hold back the tears! Wars! Oil! Empires and Videotapes!
 
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/02/13/probe-demanded-of-libya-bombings/
 
 

...Right now I will go to bed and sleep a few hours. I reckon you will sleep a lot longer but I hope you too will finally one day wake up and smell the coffee... if it isn't rationed by then.

Cream and sugar with that?
 
Unless you'd rather skip the coffee altogether and clean the glass house you live in. It's a bit murky these days...guess who primarily need Libyan oil?
 
I really do find Europeans sentiments about aggression ridiculous. Demonize the US for aggression against a tyrant in Iraq, but doesn't seem to mind doing it themselves against a tyrant in Libya with Sarkozy loudly proclaming "Qaddafi must go!". Nope, no protest, no exhaustive UN theatrical deliberations, no diplomacy over Cafe au Lait. Zip, nada, zero...just bomb! bomb! bomb!
 
Funny that, eh?

[GQBlues]

Now that we have a clear picture of the choices we have for our next leader, I ask again, Is this the best we can do?

It sure looks that way. It's gotten to the point where the person with the least campaign (financial) support is definitely the least influenced candidate. Unfortunately that's a double-edged sword. Meaning, that person won't make it through passed the first prime-time campaign party bash.

...This election will not be about who is the best person to be our president, but rather, who is the lesser of the evils...

Sad, isn't it? We have a clown, a fake and the devil himself.

[Faux Pas]

That  reminds me of what is so often said here. Don't send money to her before you meet. Have you met Mr. Gingrich?
 

Actually, yes I have but that isn't the point nor the reason I supported his campaign.

As far as I know there is no other empire after the fall of the USSR to contest the military might of USA.
USA has traditionally been effective economy-wise but there are conflicting views concerning it's latter day status as the engine for world economics. Yes, it's still the number 1 in economic output, but it also is important to keep in mind Bretton Woods of 1944 which established the US dollar as the world reserve currency. This means that USA is the only country in the world that can print it's own currency and have it accepted worldwide as hard currency. Oil, gold and so on is reported in US dollars and the US maintain it's empire as long as this system is trusted. Now, because the US is no longer as competitive and also running numerous expensive wars around the globe, this status is at risk.

 
I believe you are mistaken. Bretton Woods didn't establish the USD as the world reserve currency. Maybe you should check your information. That didn't happen until 1971 when the US dropped the gold standard but, don't let the facts get in the way of a good myth 

Oh man, I'm so surprised to read that you buy into the Iran scare story and how they're just about to get nuclear weapons. I've heard it since 2006... war is imminent. We have to do something. This is in my sincere opinion nonsense and I personally will not take part of it because it can instigate WW3 in the worst case scenario. Come on !!! The American people must be the most afraid people on earth if they believe this. May I remind you the only one in history to ever develop and use atomic weapons are the US.
And what about north Korea? Surely a few nuclear missiles would quiet them down.
 
It surely must be getting more difficult to explain to the US public how it all connects. By Americans we Europeans are ridiculed because we have such high prices at the gas pumps. Yes, the gas prices at the pumps in USA are low but you forget all the military costs of occupying the oil producing contries and what that cost. Only this cost comes to your children and grandchildren. Come on, wake up!!!
 
You want to be patriotic, well, every nation wants to be patriotic. Is it really necessary to use the military might to show it? It's a waste of life and limb and your economy too.
 

Roy, you asked the question, I gave you the answer. I can't help it that you don't like it. Be more careful of the questions you ask.

Hey, let me tell you there are other criminals against mankind too. My own country of Norway of a mere 5 million people managed to send F-16's to Libya and count 11% of all the bombs dropped there. I had no saying in the decision but at least I wrote my opposition on Facebook!...... It's pathetic.

My will and voice in America is even more diluted than yours in Norway but I don't depend on Facebook to put it out there. I support politicians I hope will make the correct decisions for "me"  I vote and speak with my pocketbook
 

It is really surreal. What I grew up with has proved to be lies. We, in the west, were always the good guys and those in the Soviet Union were beasts. Now our enemies are changed into Muslims.
We are to be sooooo afraid of the Muslims and accepting the control of our own lives because of the treat from outside. There always has to be an enemy, doesn't it?

All governments are based on the premise of a boogeyman. Fear is a very effective tool to control the masses. Second probably only to religion.
 

And if the attempt whitch is ongoing to surround Russia is not
successful, the western military forces will angage and
ensure destruction on all of us.
 
Hey, seems to me it's about time my look-alike Vladimir Putin come on stage again and take to task the war-mongeriong anglo-saxon war aggressors?
 

C'mon Roy. This statement is pure hyperbole. NATO is antiquated, Russia is no military threat and only an economic threat to Europe at this juncture. Russia is in no danger from the West and they know it. Now who's lapping up the propaganda?

And pleeeease...... those with at least an IQ of 120..... don't fall for the propaganda where ever it comes from. Read the King James Bible!

Thats probably a discussion you need to have with your most ardent supporter SF and EE there

[pitbull]

i am 27, my generation does not feel entitled? we have been told our whole life we wold have to pay for the social security of the baby boomers yet we would receive nothing for our payments. we have seen all the jobs transferred over seas. uncontrolled immigration the has brought down our wages, all to boost the income of the rich with cheap labor. it's a basic capitalistic idea, the more surplus of any good lowers prices. i don't feel entitled i feel robed of my future. education prices have skyrocketed yet our pay has dropped.

\
Darth, I have to agree!
American baby-bommers have the highest sense of entitlement of all generations. Aside from controlling most of the country's wealth, having grown up and matured during the economic uprise of the US, they dare to accuse the young Americans of entitlement attutude! All the while they do believe that they have already paid for their SS and Medicare and are now entitled to full medical benefits till their last breath! Don't give a damn if the whole country goes bancrupt as a result, if our kids don't get decent education or young people have to die if they don't have insurance or money to pay the crazy medical bills!
 
As my former boss, a very distinguished 75 y.o. MIT professor says, "The 20-30 y. olds are the first generation that will have a life worse than their parents had. It sucks to be young these days".
 

[Darth_Budda]

Thank you Pittbull,, I am assuming you are a women from a FSU, I am glade you can see this bull shit and think of what really matters in this life.

Your Children....

That is why I am fighting now with my off site political work. I don't want anything...
I just want a good life for my Daughter and hopefully my future children.


What makes American children better than children in Russia, South America or Africa Children?
Nothing! We as Americans must stand up and say we will accept no goods made by children through
Child labor. Who are paid slave wages. Think about that next time you have a bit of chocolate to eat.

Were did it come from? Our climate does not produce these taste beans? Were are they made?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8583000/8583499.stm 

I hope the BBC news is reputable enough for my fellow Americans...

I don't consider my self a liberal... I look into a issue and try to make informed decisions.
My views are on both sides of the the political mainstay. I do lean towards true economic Socialism though. The wealth of this planet should be used for the betterment of all the society and not just the
people in my own country.

[Misha]

As my former boss, a very distinguished 75 y.o. MIT professor says, "The 20-30 y. olds are the first generation that will have a life worse than their parents had. It sucks to be young these days".

Methinks the generation thar came of age in the great Depression might have disagreed

[Darth_Budda]

Methinks the generation thar came of age in the great Depression might have disagreed

I think the great depression generation would understand more than you think about these issues..

After all, the great depression of the 1930 was caused by Wall Street speculation and Corporate greed.

[Misha]

I think the great depression generation would understand more than you think about these issues..

After all, the great depression of the 1930 was caused by Wall Street speculation and Corporate greed.

The professor in question said that this was the FIRST generation to be poorer than their parents' generation... Clearly, this is not the case.

[pitbull]

The professor in question said that this was the FIRST generation to be poorer than their parents' generation... Clearly, this is not the case.

Well, the great depression lasted 1929-roughly mid-thirties in the US. The generation that came to age during that time still fared better than their parents in the long run. The Professor meant that the current generation of 20-30 y.-olds are the first generation that will fare worth than their parents over the lifetime, it's just not gonna be better, period. We are talking global structural changes here.

[Darth_Budda]

The professor in question said that this was the FIRST generation to be poorer than their parents' generation... Clearly, this is not the case.

i can see your point. their has been several great depressions through out American history.

but most were somewhat short lived "10-20 years." also at earlier points in history most Americans were farmers so the depression effected fewer people.

but the professor has  point, in he long run even when the current depression ends, their will still be fewer economic options than the 1930's generation had. with increased energy costs and the huge baby boomer generation that will stretch the resources of the numerical smaller generations after them. we should look to japan to view one possible future for the united states. japan is currently going  through this very same issue. one hing that may help the US is the fact we have large amounts of farm land, in the future food stuffs may become one of our most important exports. it's hard to tell i lost my Crystal ball last month. 

[SFandEE]

\

American baby-bommers have the highest sense of entitlement of all generations. Aside from controlling most of the country's wealth, having grown up and matured during the economic uprise of the US, they dare to accuse the young Americans of entitlement attutude! All the while they do believe that they have already paid for their SS and Medicare and are now entitled to full medical benefits till their last breath! Don't give a damn if the whole country goes bancrupt as a result, if our kids don't get decent education or young people have to die if they don't have insurance or money to pay the crazy medical bills!

Dozens of examples to support this statement.  One of the most powerful is all politicians do not even entertain a discussion of means testing Baby Boomers Social Security, but Gen X and younger is in play.  One of the most important qualities of a political leader in these times is someone who will fight the Boomers.  They will start dying soon enough and they have been voting themselves unfunded entitlements their entire lives.  They have been voting for and living on credit card debt (government pensions, military contracts, unfunded tax benefits, medicare) their whole adult lives. It is time the younger generations start responding with you get what you saved.  Not what you promised yourself from us.  President Obama is younger than every candidate for American president, the next closest being the religious fundamentalist nut who has no boundaries on imposing religious beliefs on non-believers.  Rick Santorum.  Kind of an American Taliban thing going on there.  Vote young, vote accountable, vote constitutional (that includes letting Jesus worry about the religious stuff after we die)

[Misha]

but the professor has  point, in he long run even when the current depression ends, their will still be fewer economic options than the 1930's generation had.

Perhaps, but only time can tell. For all we know, new technologies will be invented that will create new opportunities that will make all of today's problems moot points...

[newjason]

Perhaps, but only time can tell. For all we know, new technologies will be invented that will create new opportunities that will make all of today's problems moot points...

You are Correct Misha.

what is disturbing to me is that it seems that some young people here have already given up on this way of thinking, declaring that they will be worse off than their Folks.

it's pretty normal to feel melancholy in your 20's
It will pass, and so will the economic downturn.

[BC]

but the professor has  point, in he long run even when the current depression ends, their will still be fewer economic options than the 1930's generation had.

Don't know why folks keep saying we're still in a depression.  It ended over a year ago and we're well into recovery.

What surprises me a bit is that many big companies used the crisis to downsize.  They basically dropped the fat and became meaner / leaner.  This exacerbated unemployment problems but even that is heading in the right direction.  Downside is a sneaky feeling I have that overall this gave corporations and companies that previously fired opportunity to now hire at lower wages.

The baby boom generation will soon be retiring and that will be the huge hurdle in the next 20 years.  Wealth will continue to concentrate creating a huge economic gap without a middle class that can support the aging.  Doesn't take much to figure out who will end up taking care of the elderly.  Social security is barely enough to live on now days,  just a bare minimum.  With healthcare in the final year of life representing over 30% of all healthcare costs it's a disaster in the making that will make the 2008/9 financial crisis look simple in comparison.  SCOTUS may rule against Obamacare, but something similar will be back.. guaranteed.

As for energy, the old principle 'it's easier to save a dollar than earn one' will rule.  Technology like solar energy which is now available at rock bottom prices (1/3rd or less than 5 years ago) will continue to grow and be available for the common household.  It will become as essential to new housing as a heating / cooling system is today.  Prices for energy will keep rising though as the 'old' infrastructure needs to be maintained.  Transportation costs will also keep rising but there are plenty of alternatives there.  Believe it or not the minivan system seen in many countries like UA, RU, TU etc is quite efficient.. I'd like to see that become a part of public transport in other countries.  Heck, it gets you from the airport to the car rental lot so why should it not work elsewhere..