Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[GQBlues]

But it is the 'product' if we really want to split pea about this. Economics is the thrust that drives most of our progressive/regressive existence. Certainly we can make a case for colonization, alcohol distilleries, cigarettes, etc...

The wheels of the Nazi machine, as just one example, would not have turned so easily, if industry had not supplied them, willingly, with the tools they needed.

Well yes, sure...but in the same sense one can easily say that should implicate Hormel Foods as guilty of crimes against humanity in the same degree, no?

Bottom line in all of this, there's should always be 'government' regulating, or not, these incidences/businesses.

Speaking of which, (I don't know how this is anywhere else), LA and Sta Monica just recently passed a law that bans all plastic bag products usage in the 'name' of environmental protection. Sounds good on the surface, but then they say this law, based on their estimate, generates the city $25 million/year to not have to deal with plastic bags in our landfills. Additionally, they will start charging us $0.10/ea for every paper bags required to 'bag' our purchases whether they're groceries or general goods, which was said to generate approximately another $30-40 million/yr.

$65 million LOL. It cost the city at least 10x that by 'housing' a few million illegal immigrants and multi-generational social dependent dimwits in our society. Environmental protection, LOL.

[erikmagenta]

Businesses and Governments often work hand in hand.  It's doubtful if the German companies listed would have made the products they did during WWII without the insistance of an evil regime, at the point of a gun so to speak. 

I would not say that the relationship between the US Government and Haliburton are the same as mentioned above, and yet Haliburton has greatly benefitted from the war in Iraq.

It's somewhat naive to say that businesses deliberately make products that are going to kill people (unless they are an arms manufacturer and then it's a given).  As the poster GQ just pointed out, any product can be missused.

[Shadow]

It's somewhat naive to say that businesses deliberately make products that are going to kill people (unless they are an arms manufacturer and then it's a given).  As the poster GQ just pointed out, any product can be missused.

This is why there should be a balance between Government and business.
A Goverment is going to make the rules and ensure that they are followed.
A Business is going to make as much money as they can within those rules.
If both do their job, the Government gets money through taxes, and everyone is happy.
If the Government starts to be a business, they are going to be less trusted in making rules, as they will try to maximize their profits as well.
If the Business is given Government tasks, they lose efficiency as they have to think not only about playing but also about making the field.

In cases where the business is not supposed to create profit but has other goals, it can be running with government influence or control. Mostly such a business is accused of being inefficient and burning tax money.

[Gator]

The point is not the product, but that, as BC said, business leaders are not ethical.

Broad statement.  How many business leaders are unethical?  All?   Most?  Half?  Significant but less than half?  Some?   Few?
 

The wheels of the Nazi machine, as just one example, would not have turned so
easily, if industry had not supplied them, willingly, with the tools they
needed.

What should have Mr. Bayer, Mr. Volkswagen, Mr. Krupp, et al done when Hitler asked them to supply military arms?   What do you believe Hitler would have done if they refused? 
 
I believe they paid a price for their decisions when Hitler lost and German industry was dismantled.  However, this was harming the entire European economy and many companies were rebuilt under the Marshall Plan for the benefit of Europe.  The USSR did not participate in the Marshall Plan and we see what happened in East Germany.. 
 
Many American companies made military arms for Americans.  Should they have refused?
 
 

[Boethius]

Well, duh, there are good and bad people in every aspect of society.  My point was not that "business is bad" but rather, a riposte to the view that business leaders were never responsible for atrocities.  History shows us where a profit is to be made, even in morally reprehensible conduct, some business leaders will have no compunction in profiting.

[GQBlues]

Well, duh, there are good and bad people in every aspect of society.  My point was not that "business is bad" but rather, a riposte to the view that business leaders were never responsible for atrocities.  History shows us where a profit is to be made, even in morally reprehensible conduct, some business leaders will have no compunction in profiting.

Good point and I agree. Hopefully come November it will no longer be business as usual in DC.

[SANDRO43]

The USSR did not participate in the Marshall Plan and we see what happened in East Germany..

Phil, I had a personal experience of that in 1980, as a participant to IBM Italy's 100% Club in what was then West Berlin, which included an afternoon's bus tour to East Berlin through Checkpoint Charlie.

Our tour guide was an East German girl who only spoke English, and during our excursion we Italians of course made condescending remarks about the dinginess of what we were seeing in her part of city (drab buildings, a few Trabant cars, etc. etc.) She obviously got the gyst of it if not the details and was visibly unhappy, so I started a conversion with her on East Germany's situation.

I still remember her saying: "We did not have the benefits of a Marshall Plan" and, in a more hushed voice: "...and our Soviet brothers moved most of our industries to Russia" .

Another significant incident concerned my request for an East German 10 mark silver coin - at the time I used to bring them back to my mother as souvenirs of my foreign trips - which of course I'd be paying for in $.

Her horrified refusal to accede to my request spoke volumes about her fear of possibly being accused of black-market currency deals .

[Gator]

History shows us where a profit is to be made, even in morally reprehensible conduct, some business leaders will have no compunction in profiting.

You answered "some."  Thank you.   BTW, I agree with "some."

[Gator]

Another significant incident concerned my request for an East German 10 mark silver coin - at the time I used to bring them back to my mother as souvenirs of my foreign trips - which of course I'd be paying for in $.

Her horrified refusal to accede to my request spoke volumes about her fear of possibly being accused of black-market currency deals .

Understandable.   Her job was probably very important to her and not one to be risked.   The penalties would have been severe (or she might have been released after giving sex to Stasi officials).
 
If silver, it would be worth more today. 
 
When visiting Moscow in 1987, the official exchange rate was 1 p = $1.50.  I stayed with Dutch friends (agricultural attache) and they were adamant not  to exchange in the black market even though the rate was perhaps 10 p = $1.00.

[Anotherkiwi]

...After WWII, Bayer concentrated on pharmaceuticals, BASF (once Badische Anilin- und Soda-Fabrik) on chemical products.

Totally  , but this is one of the best-loved TV commercials ever screened here :
 

 
Showing the quality of BASF audio tapes - it won two Clio awards (the advertising industry's Oscar) in 1982 - a Gold Award and Best Director.  It also won a string of other awards, including the 1990 Australian award for Best Commercial of the 1980s - rather ironic considering it was made in New Zealand.
 
For more info, see here - http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/dear-john-basf-commercial-1981
 
I used BASF tapes all the time for my broadcasting work.

[GQBlues]

In the midst of the recent WH scandal and it's ensuing investigation, to say this is timely is an understatement.

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/15/12238794-obama-administration-wont-seek-deportation-of-young-illegal-immigrants?lite

"In a major policy change...."

tsk, tsk, tsk...this country is definitely doomed when political ambitions over-ride the purported obligations.

[calmissile]

In the midst of the recent WH scandal and it's ensuing investigation, to say this is timely is an understatement.

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/15/12238794-obama-administration-wont-seek-deportation-of-young-illegal-immigrants?lite

"In a major policy change...."

tsk, tsk, tsk...this country is definitely doomed when political ambitions over-ride the purported obligations.

Well, if this does not take the cake!  The choice between two evils is getting easier each day.
It's bad enough that the Supreme Court has been actively making law for many years, but now we have the President circumventing the lawmaking branch of government (Congress) and making law himself.

What a slap in the face to all those immigrants that stood in line and played by the rules to gain admission to the US.  I liked the post made in another thread that asks the question as to those that played by the rules.... do they get a refund from the INS?

The White House leaks that endangered our intelligence gathering and created mistrust with our allies is just another one of his incompetent  actions.

I am about 3/4 finished with a new book entitled "The Amateur".  I think it has been on the NYT best sellers list for several weeks.  The stores are having a hard time keeping it on the shelves.  A very interesting read about president Obama and his administration that is not filled with conspiracy stuff.

[BC]

Well, if this does not take the cake!  The choice between two evils is getting easier each day.
It's bad enough that the Supreme Court has been actively making law for many years, but now we have the President circumventing the lawmaking branch of government (Congress) and making law himself.

What a slap in the face to all those immigrants that stood in line and played by the rules to gain admission to the US.  I liked the post made in another thread that asks the question as to those that played by the rules.... do they get a refund from the INS?

The White House leaks that endangered our intelligence gathering and created mistrust with our allies is just another one of his incompetent  actions.

I am about 3/4 finished with a new book entitled "The Amateur".  I think it has been on the NYT best sellers list for several weeks.  The stores are having a hard time keeping it on the shelves.  A very interesting read about president Obama and his administration that is not filled with conspiracy stuff.

Well as I understand it, this decision affects kids that grew up in the US, went to school etc etc, many now leading productive lives and paying taxes.  The kids were brought to the US by their parents so had little choice in the matter.  I don't see anything at all wrong with that.

[Turboguy]

I don't have a lot of problems with what was done.  I do have some problem wiht the way it was done and with the real reason for doing it which was votes.

[BC]

I don't have a lot of problems with what was done.  I do have some problem wiht the way it was done and with the real reason for doing it which was votes.

Whats better, somebody doing something or everybody not being able to agree on anything?

I think thats the crux of the matter..

What happened with the bill to extend lower interest rates for student loans?  I think both sides of the aisle agreed on that...

[GQBlues]

I don't have a lot of problems with what was done.  I do have some problem wiht the way it was done and with the real reason for doing it which was votes.

Exactly right. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Not least of which is the aggressive fund-raising campaign, financed by the taxpayers, he's been flying about the country this past 6 months.

Here's a good WP article, all in addition to the current mess DC is in, persistent unemployment, rising debts and spending, etc...

"....Amazingly, Obama has declared that all the projects received funding “based solely on their merits.”  But as Hoover Institution scholar Peter Schweizer reported in his book, “Throw Them All Out,” fully 71 percent of the Obama Energy Department’s grants and loans went to “individuals who were bundlers, members of Obama’s National Finance Committee, or large donors to the Democratic Party.” Collectively, these Obama cronies raised $457,834 for his campaign, and they were in turn approved for grants or loans of nearly $11.35 billion. Obama said this week it’s not the president’s job “to make a lot of money for investors.” Well, he sure seems to have made a lot of (taxpayer) money for investors in his political machine.

 All that cronyism and corruption is catching up with the administration. According to Politico, “The Energy Department’s inspector general has launched more than 100 criminal investigations” related to the department’s green-energy programs. ...."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/forget-bain-obamas-public-equity-record-is-the-real-scandal/2012/05/24/gJQAXnXCnU_story.html



::::Yeah, well, Bush did this....::::: silly rebuttal here _____________________________

[BC]

Exactly right. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Not least of which is the aggressive fund-raising campaign, financed by the taxpayers, he's been flying about the country this past 6 months.

Here's a good WP article, all in addition to the current mess DC is in, persistent unemployment, rising debts and spending, etc...

"....Amazingly, Obama has declared that all the projects received funding “based solely on their merits.”  But as Hoover Institution scholar Peter Schweizer reported in his book, “Throw Them All Out,” fully 71 percent of the Obama Energy Department’s grants and loans went to “individuals who were bundlers, members of Obama’s National Finance Committee, or large donors to the Democratic Party.” Collectively, these Obama cronies raised $457,834 for his campaign, and they were in turn approved for grants or loans of nearly $11.35 billion. Obama said this week it’s not the president’s job “to make a lot of money for investors.” Well, he sure seems to have made a lot of (taxpayer) money for investors in his political machine.

 All that cronyism and corruption is catching up with the administration. According to Politico, “The Energy Department’s inspector general has launched more than 100 criminal investigations” related to the department’s green-energy programs. ...."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/forget-bain-obamas-public-equity-record-is-the-real-scandal/2012/05/24/gJQAXnXCnU_story.html



::::Yeah, well, Bush did this....::::: silly rebuttal here _____________________________

GQ,

would you classify such as being a lack of government efforts to help businesses evolve or lack of business ethics?

Yes, that rear view mirror can be damning.

Would it be proper to counter regarding investigations of contracts awarded during the Afghanistan and Iraq wars?

[GQBlues]

GQ,

would you classify such as being a lack of government efforts to help businesses evolve or lack of business ethics?

Specifically the companies principal to his '08 campaign chest that ultimately received these huge billion dollar loan guaranties that are now being written off (did you read the article I attached? There's too many coincidences to peg this as non-intentional))?

Yes, that rear view mirror can be damning.

Would it be proper to counter regarding investigations of contracts awarded during the Afghanistan and Iraq wars?

LOL. This is -oh-so 2008, BC. C'mon you can do better than that. That bandwagon had left town a long time ago. I won't be surprised Obama blames Bush again come election in his fall campaign. He already started to during his find raising here in Irvine.

[BC]

GQ,

Touche...

Yes, politics sucks... And that will never change.

At least Obama applies lube.

[calmissile]

Well as I understand it, this decision affects kids that grew up in the US, went to school etc etc, many now leading productive lives and paying taxes.  The kids were brought to the US by their parents so had little choice in the matter.  I don't see anything at all wrong with that.

You seemed to have missed the point.  Your response seems to be consistent with "the ends justify the means" philosophy.

The point is that we have a constitution and are supposed to operating under the rule of law (as laid out by the Constitution and laws enacted by Congress).  The president is not elected as a King or Dictator.  He is not the lawmaking branch of government, he is expected to administer the government based upon the  laws in affect at the time.

I am not familiar with the immigration laws of Italy or FSU.  What is the response of Italy and FSU countries for those found to have been smuggled into those countries?  Let me know, I am curious.

[BC]

Calmissile,

The Constitution also provides three branches of government that balance each other.  Surely the action that Obama takes is within the power the constitution gives him within the Executive Branch..

As far as I can tell he has not done anything unconstitutional.. or?

Of course there are immigration laws and illegal immigrants here.  I do know that legal immigration is much easier, especially when it comes to family based visa's.

When we married it took about three weeks to get the immigration visa for my wife and daughter, including two weeks delay due to an official on vacation.  Cost just a few bucks.

http://www.africa-news.eu/immigration-news/italy/4224-sanatoria-senate-approves-amnesty-for-illegal-immigrants.html

Sanatoria (amnesty for illegal immigrants) is most likely on the way. The Senate’s Constitutional Affairs and Justice Commissions have given green light to a measure that will allow irregular immigrants in Italy to be regularized.

The Senators have gone as far as indicating the procedures to be followed in regularizing immigrant workers. For each irregular worker, the employer will have to pay 1,000 Euros. This would allow the worker to obtain the work permit and the employer to be exempted from sanctions prescribed by the law for hiring illegal workers.

[Muzh]

He [Obama] is not the lawmaking branch of government, he is expected to administer the government based upon the  laws in affect at the time.

Absolutely. That task NOW belongs to the Supreme Court.

[calmissile]

Absolutely. That task NOW belongs to the Supreme Court.

You forgot the tongue in cheek icon.   LOL

[BC]

Absolutely. That task NOW belongs to the Supreme Court.

I don't believe the three branches of government fighting each other for power and control was ever envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

I think they envisioned lively discourse between the branches, but were confident that above all 'We the people' would rule and not 'We the politicians'.

These three words will come back to haunt.

[erikmagenta]

Boy, you are full of bullshevism.
 
Compare Obama's economic policies to Reagan's policies and you'll find they are almost the same. Maybe you would like something a little bit more fascist? Or is it that you don't like the "negro?"
 
And the other bullshevism about RW, who and what made you an expert? Are you an anthropologist? Have you done some research? If not, I suggest don't be so definite about your statements.

Nice try.  Obama is nowhere near the President that Reagan was.  No, I would like a President who is more willing to follow the Constitution.  Obama is so desperate that he just circumvented Congress in order to try to get more Hispanic votes--by not deporting ones here who came here illegally.  His Attorney General will likely be found guilty of contempt of Congress.  He lost in the Supreme Court in his witch hunt against Arizona.  His mandated big medicine forced medical care for all is not Constitutional.

No doubt you would like a Socialist like him to be even more and more like Uncle Joe (Stalin) and keep chipping away at the US Constitution, and keep taking more and more rights away from the American people.

Romney has a huge record of success in the real world--which is the business world of creating jobs.  Obama could not even run a lemonade stand if givien a chance!!